Worst unit in each game?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

We've been over this before - I don't have the patience for failure, and especially not for someone like him, who makes failure a habit. It isn't like he has much in the way of redeeming features either. . . i mean, he has high speed, Whoopedy-freaking-do. Too bad it means jackshit when he has nothing else to go with it.

Also high Res (12 + 0.60x), Strength (9 + 0.45x) and Skill (9 + 0.50x) that keep up pretty well, anti-flier weaponry, Kidnap utility, and an extra point of move in 2 levels.

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Zoran, who knows more about how to break Conquest in half at speed than anyone I've ever seen, seems to be of the opinion, judging by what he says about her in his "use everyone" playthrough, that the worst unit in Conquest is Nyx. About at 17:30 in this video, he talks about her:

 

https://youtu.be/7aCJDX719ds

Genuinely the most genial unit takedown I've ever heard. I really like Nyx, but I can see why she wouldn't be highly regarded.

[FailWood]

11 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Zoran, who knows more about how to break Conquest in half at speed than anyone I've ever seen, seems to be of the opinion, judging by what he says about her in his "use everyone" playthrough, that the worst unit in Conquest is Nyx. About at 17:30 in this video, he talks about her:

Says pretty much all of her issues: Poor Skill and Luck so her accuracy is bad, Heartseeker and Countercurse can't be used safely due to her low HP and overall survivability being bad (Countercurse is an inconsequential personal skill to begin with).

Wasn't he the same person who showed how Odin can Nosferatu Tank well?

Edited May 11, 2022 by FailWood

[Alastor15243]

4 hours ago, FailWood said:

Wasn't he the same person who showed how Odin can Nosferatu Tank well?

Yep!

[Shadow Mir]

20 hours ago, FailWood said:

We have, which is why I don't feel the need to explain again why I think you're severely underrating how useful he is.

My original pick for worst Conquest unit was Charlotte, but I can see a case for Mozu being it after she was mentioned.

Likewise, I won't waste time when those reasons are most likely naive idealism and little else.

Honestly, I can see it being Mozu. Sure, certain people argue that feeding her most of her paralogue makes her amazing, but... that says a lot more about the scale of favoritism she got than it says about Mozu herself.

17 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Zoran, who knows more about how to break Conquest in half at speed than anyone I've ever seen, seems to be of the opinion, judging by what he says about her in his "use everyone" playthrough, that the worst unit in Conquest is Nyx. About at 17:30 in this video, he talks about her:

 

https://youtu.be/7aCJDX719ds

What are his opinions on the worst unit in Birthright? Though tbf, I can see where he's coming from regarding Nyx (I think she's a candidate for worst unit in the game myself); I also see her as a case study on why overspecialization is bad.

Also, when I was watching that video, hearing the characters say their lines when selected felt clearly out of place, like it added nothing to the game. It worked in SoV and 3H because their lines varied depending on how much health they had remaining, but hearing Nyx say "Let's leave no survivors" when selected while one hit away from death made me go "Seriously?"

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also high Res (12 + 0.60x), Strength (9 + 0.45x) and Skill (9 + 0.50x) that keep up pretty well, anti-flier weaponry, Kidnap utility, and an extra point of move in 2 levels.

Most of those are stuff that I can get from other units without having to endure his weaknesses, and the one unique aspect he brings to the table is, to be blunt, as useful as tits on a bull (I'm not enthused about capture when most of what it offers is worse versions of the units I get just by playing the goddamn game, and the exceptions are STILL not that great).

[Alastor15243]

38 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What are his opinions on the worst unit in Birthright? Though tbf, I can see where he's coming from regarding Nyx (I think she's a candidate for worst unit in the game myself); I also see her as a case study on why overspecialization is bad.

He doesn't talk about Birthright much at all. All of his videos are about Conquest or the shared prologue chapters.

38 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, when I was watching that video, hearing the characters say their lines when selected felt clearly out of place, like it added nothing to the game. It worked in SoV and 3H because their lines varied depending on how much health they had remaining, but hearing Nyx say "Let's leave no survivors" when selected while one hit away from death made me go "Seriously?"

Well, in fairness, the mod-maker didn't have any such lines to work with.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Alastor15243

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Most of those are stuff that I can get from other units without having to endure his weaknesses, and the one unique aspect he brings to the table is, to be blunt, as useful as tits on a bull (I'm not enthused about capture when most of what it offers is worse versions of the units I get just by playing the goddamn game, and the exceptions are STILL not that great).

Tits on a bull are awesome, though. Combine the best of both worlds.

Anyway, what other units in Conquest are offering that high a Speed and Resistance stat? Who else has bow access, without burning a Heart Seal, at this point? Who else is granting +1 Movement through Pair-Up? There's a lot Niles offers that few or no other units do, at his joining time. Even if we disregard Capture utility.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

28 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anyway, what other units in Conquest are offering that high a Speed and Resistance stat? Who else has bow access, without burning a Heart Seal, at this point? Who else is granting +1 Movement through Pair-Up? There's a lot Niles offers that few or no other units do, at his joining time. Even if we disregard Capture utility.

Elise for Spd/Res.

Kaze.

Servant 1 to some degree if you have him - Note WTA over mages.

And to some degree Shura.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

13 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Elise for Spd/Res.

Well you got me there. But she's not a combat unit. She fills a totally different role from Niles.

13 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Kaze.

Not until chapter 12.

13 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Servant 1 to some degree if you have him - Note WTA over mages.

Fair enough, but early Jakob is one of the best units in Conquest. And early Felicia is no slouch, either.

14 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

And to some degree Shura.

Again, not until chapter 17.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

snip

The only thing he kills pre 10 are the target dummy mages (the ones in the south deal what 17 a pop? the rest I think sit pretty at 20-22 I think, I have no way of checking right now) in chapter 8. I see little reason to insist on bow being special until chapter 10 -> Ballista and Fliers turn up. And with Niles stats it´s chip at best. He can´t even really lure out the Archers in Haitakas room, because while he has Res he doesn´t have Def, which means 2/3 Archers wreck him. General Laughter at the attempt at trying to hit a Samurai with Niles - especially the PU varaint in 9. The other thing Archers are really good at, killing Ninjas, he also can´t do, because his Str is so bad and he gets further debuffed, making his combat even worse.

+1 Mov would be nice, if the enemy was in any way whatsoever a greater distance away, which due to Fates maps they generally aren´t. Heck, +SPD/RES/+1Mov sounds like a match made in heaven for Effie, but what she needs is a strong lad or lass to reach these juicy OHKO thresholds which specifically she´s capable off. It doesn´t even pay off in chapter 10, cuz Ballista requirements.

As of 11 Kaze obsoletes him in practically every way that isn´t PS and as of 13 we get the Hunters Knife alleveating all worries about fliers except Wyverns. Which are rare outside Paralogues methinks - only 13 and lategame? 

He does have other utility on 9 I forgot - we only get 1 key. And some Wyverns in Invasion 1, I guess. 

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Tits on a bull are awesome, though. Combine the best of both worlds.

Anyway, what other units in Conquest are offering that high a Speed and Resistance stat? Who else has bow access, without burning a Heart Seal, at this point? Who else is granting +1 Movement through Pair-Up? There's a lot Niles offers that few or no other units do, at his joining time. Even if we disregard Capture utility.

Not sure if serious.

Elise and Nina. Hell, Nina gives all those you state, and even more. Like the ability to actually do damage.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Elise and Nina. Hell, Nina gives all those you state, and even more. Like the ability to actually do damage.

Good call. Elise is great at countering enemy Mages without using any Seals. She just hits so hard.

As for Nina, another great point. I should totally forego using Niles, and just use Nina instead. Say, when's she gonna show up?

[FailWood]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I won't waste time when those reasons are most likely naive idealism and little else.

Those reasons I stated a while back were based off of personal experience from playing AND beating Conquest, and he proved invaluable for a while.

I know I've been an asshole here sometimes, but at least I don't try to claim other people's reasonings for something as "naive idealism".  Who says shit like that?

[FailWood]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

naive idealism and little else.

 

7 minutes ago, FailWood said:

Those reasons I stated a while back were based off of personal experience from playing AND beating Conquest, and he proved invaluable for a while.

Here's proof.

[Shadow Mir]

14 minutes ago, FailWood said:

Those reasons I stated a while back were based off of personal experience from playing AND beating Conquest, and he proved invaluable for a while.

I know I've been an asshole here sometimes, but at least I don't try to claim other people's reasonings for something as "naive idealism".  Who says shit like that?

Well, if we're going off of personal experience, then I still don't think those hold water. Niles has NEVER lasted long in any of my Conquest runs, largely because most of his good points are not unique to him.

[SnowFire]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, if we're going off of personal experience, then I still don't think those hold water. Niles has NEVER lasted long in any of my Conquest runs, largely because most of his good points are not unique to him.

Now we're getting somewhere.  Look, if you say that you've had trouble making Niles work, that's cool.  I believe you.  That leaves open the question of whether Niles sucks, it was a personal playstyle issue, some sort of ferocious RNG screw, or maybe some combination.  But nobody is going to contest your experiences happened, in the same way that if someone says that they beat FE7 with a god Dorcas, just believe them.

But where this gets weird is calling people - on a Fire Emblem fansite, let me remind you - "naive".  You do know what that means, right?  "Deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment /  not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular situation" to quote Merriam Webster?  It's not just "wrong", it's uninformed wrong.  That might be appropriate if someone is offering opinions off of pure theorycraft that don't take into account other facets of the game, like if I were to rag on some Tear Ring Saga character just because his stats looked wrong, or if someone was to rag on Three Houses Dark Knight without ever using it nor playing Maddening.  But FailWood posted their Lunatic clear achievement.  If he says that he made good use of Niles - whether because Niles is good, it was a personal playstyle issue, or some ferocious RNG blessing - believe him.

Edited May 12, 2022 by SnowFire

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:20 PM, Imuabicus said:

The only thing he kills pre 10 are the target dummy mages (the ones in the south deal what 17 a pop? the rest I think sit pretty at 20-22 I think, I have no way of checking right now) in chapter 8. I see little reason to insist on bow being special until chapter 10 -> Ballista and Fliers turn up. And with Niles stats it´s chip at best. He can´t even really lure out the Archers in Haitakas room, because while he has Res he doesn´t have Def, which means 2/3 Archers wreck him. General Laughter at the attempt at trying to hit a Samurai with Niles - especially the PU varaint in 9. The other thing Archers are really good at, killing Ninjas, he also can´t do, because his Str is so bad and he gets further debuffed, making his combat even worse.

In 8 he can one-round the mages pretty easily. Can get one by sitting at the edge of their range on enemy phase, then kill another on player phase.

He can also one-round non-buffed archers in Conquest 9 pretty easily. The buffed near Haitaka ones, maybe not, but I don't even care about one-rounding them. You can lure them through the wall to attack one at a time with whoever. He's also gonna grab that chest in 9.

In 10 there's a ballista and then lots of fliers for him to kill.

In 11 there are two chests for him to open at worst.

I think he has plenty of uses past that but quite frankly even if we bench him as soon as Kaze joins, he has pulled his weight enough to not be relevant for discussion in this thread.

[FailWood]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

In 8 he can one-round the mages pretty easily. Can get one by sitting at the edge of their range on enemy phase, then kill another on player phase.

He can also one-round non-buffed archers in Conquest 9 pretty easily. The buffed near Haitaka ones, maybe not, but I don't even care about one-rounding them. You can lure them through the wall to attack one at a time with whoever. He's also gonna grab that chest in 9.

In 10 there's a ballista and then lots of fliers for him to kill.

In 11 there are two chests for him to open at worst.

I think he has plenty of uses past that but quite frankly even if we bench him as soon as Kaze joins, he has pulled his weight enough to not be relevant for discussion in this thread.

Said pretty much everything that he can contribute towards in Conquest early game.  Chapter 10 is the last chapter where everyone is free to deploy (unless you get Mozu, which you'd have to bench one unit).  I normally decide if I want keep him on my main squad at chapter 17, but I always use him up until that point (besides chapter 15 since he can't go) cause there's something he can contribute towards in each chapter.

[FailWood]

On 5/8/2022 at 1:25 AM, Jotari said:

Course Hana has her own problems joining super late in Revalation without being balanced for it, if I remember correctly.

Hana joins after clearing chapter 8 in Rev, so 2 chapters later then in Birthright.  Her bases and starting level are all the same, except for having 2 less Strength in Rev for some reason.  Only decent thing about her is that there's still not many other units when she joins, so she has more time to be trained unlike others who join later.  Nyx, Effie, and Arthur are examples of how bad Rev's unit balance is.

[Alastor15243]

Ooh! New Zoran video! He did Mozu's paralogue and makes his case why Mozu isn't a waste of a heart seal, and is in fact one of the most practical uses of it. That discussion is linked in the timestamps:

 

(Also, he's keeping Mozu in villager for a while for the purposes of this run, for a little extra cash. And he is still confident Nyx is going to be more annoying to train.)

Edited May 16, 2022 by Alastor15243

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

20 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

In 8 he can one-round the mages pretty easily. Can get one by sitting at the edge of their range on enemy phase, then kill another on player phase.

He can also one-round non-buffed archers in Conquest 9 pretty easily. The buffed near Haitaka ones, maybe not, but I don't even care about one-rounding them. You can lure them through the wall to attack one at a time with whoever. He's also gonna grab that chest in 9.

In 10 there's a ballista and then lots of fliers for him to kill.

In 11 there are two chests for him to open at worst.

I think he has plenty of uses past that but quite frankly even if we bench him as soon as Kaze joins, he has pulled his weight enough to not be relevant for discussion in this thread.

Excellent summary of my post.

The mention of the mages in 8, where I brought to attention their attack, was to indicate how bad he still has it as the dedicated Magekiller of the team - that is his role, beyond utility and thanks to WT he still takes significant damage. 

He isn´t ORKOing Archers in 9 unless you find him a source of +3 dmg, which hey can be achieved, but he still takes up to 13 damage in return. And there´s only two he can do so, as the other two are guarded by a SF or a Samurai.

Chapter 10, as I had mentioned, is the first time that nebulous bow utility comes in, ofc he´s limited in not being able to target the fliers on the right side, since they enjoy the waves, the fliers on the left side might mingle with the reinforcements making positioning a nightmare for a frail boy like him, leaving exactly the middle for him to try his luck.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Imuabicus

[Shadow Mir]

On 5/11/2022 at 10:56 PM, SnowFire said:

Now we're getting somewhere.  Look, if you say that you've had trouble making Niles work, that's cool.  I believe you.  That leaves open the question of whether Niles sucks, it was a personal playstyle issue, some sort of ferocious RNG screw, or maybe some combination.  But nobody is going to contest your experiences happened, in the same way that if someone says that they beat FE7 with a god Dorcas, just believe them.

But where this gets weird is calling people - on a Fire Emblem fansite, let me remind you - "naive".  You do know what that means, right?  "Deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment /  not previously subjected to experimentation or a particular situation" to quote Merriam Webster?  It's not just "wrong", it's uninformed wrong.  That might be appropriate if someone is offering opinions off of pure theorycraft that don't take into account other facets of the game, like if I were to rag on some Tear Ring Saga character just because his stats looked wrong, or if someone was to rag on Three Houses Dark Knight without ever using it nor playing Maddening.  But FailWood posted their Lunatic clear achievement.  If he says that he made good use of Niles - whether because Niles is good, it was a personal playstyle issue, or some ferocious RNG blessing - believe him.

Okay, but when someone says that I'm gonna turn around and learn to appreciate Niles on Conquest Lunatic, I cannot help but think that is not worth taking seriously in the least. It's that kind of thinking I would have no qualms whatsoever about branding "naive", as it just doesn't feel like they have realistic expectations for them to say that. All this being said, however, I don't think he's in the running for worst unit in Conquest. That's between Mozu, Nyx, Arthur, and Charlotte in my opinion, as all of them have serious flaws that hinder them.

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Eltosian Kadath]

Niles was one of the units I used on my 10-unit, no pre-promoted Royals, no guard stance for the defense, Lunatic Conquest run, so I am surprised to see him so derided here. To add some more points in his favor, he is rather good against Ninja, with WTA enough speed that you can get him into doubling range of them (although you might need a pairup, or tonic and meal to get there with some of his speed caps) he is a rather solid choice against them (not to mention easy access to Shuriken Breaker for Ryoma's map). Whenever people complain about Ninja Hell, it always makes me wonder a little about how their Niles is doing...

Plus the utility of captured units on Conquest, especially Lunatic, is massive, and unique to him, so training up a Niles to grab some of those is well worth it in the long run. How he could possibly even be in contention of the bottom with this utility under his belt is beyond me.

Admittedly finding a worst unit for Conquest is difficult because of how usable everyone is in that game. I even did a Lunatic Conquest run specifically with @Shadow Mir terrible three, and none of them were really terrible. Nyx was unimpressive at worst, an ever so slightly worse version of Ophelia, or Sorcerer Leo, but coming slightly earlier. Arthur is a bit of a liability if you do not glue his son to his knee, but that isn't exactly hard to do, and while he ended up noticeably worse than Charlotte, its hard to hold that against him as Charlotte is a terrifying combat monster that wrecks everything, and puts everyone's damage output to shame (if you actually train her). Nobody is even close to as bad as any of the older game's worst units; there are no Sophia, or Wendy, or Lyre, or Karla, or Nino, or Rolf, or Bantu, etc. level of bad here.

[AnonymousSpeed]

25 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Niles was one of the units I used on my 10-unit, no pre-promoted Royals, no guard stance for the defense, Lunatic Conquest run, so I am surprised to see him so derided here.

To be fair, that does seem like a kind of niche challenge run, so it might not reflect his general performance.

[Eltosian Kadath]

34 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

To be fair, that does seem like a kind of niche challenge run, so it might not reflect his general performance.

It is, but if he can perform in an extremely hostile run like that, I don't see why he can't perform on a more normal run as well.

[AnonymousSpeed]

15 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It is, but if he can perform in an extremely hostile run like that, I don't see why he can't perform on a more normal run as well.

Surely he can perform well, but since unit comparisons are relative, his ranking may decrease in a normal run. A 0% growth run severely changes what units are useful for what purposes at what times, for instance. If other units gain massively from using guard stance while Niles gains very little, we would expect his relative position in the tiers to adjust.