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Worst unit in each game?

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2 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Surely he can perform well, but since unit comparisons are relative, his ranking may decrease in a normal run. A 0% growth run severely changes what units are useful for what purposes at what times, for instance. If other units gain massively from using guard stance while Niles gains very little, we would expect his relative position in the tiers to adjust.

His position will shift, but it sets a floor for him. Any unit that can perform in a 0% growth situation is never going to drop all the way to the bottom from that shifting, as it shows that he can find a niche with less resources spent. If he can perform without costing those resources (in this case the action of a guard stance partner), than you can spend those resources elsewhere, so you have one more unit you can either backpack to buff someone else, or just use with their action on your turn.

Also it is less that he gains little from guard stance, and more that speed is the most costly stat to shift when you don't have guard stance, which makes that already good stat even better in that challenge. There are numerous positional, and equipment buffs to damage, protection, and accuracy, all of which could also be gotten from pair-ups, but finding ways of shifting doubling thresholds in your favor is much more expensive without guard stance (for instance costing you your dance, costing tonics, costing your meal buff, requiring a Hosidan or S-Rank weapon that are difficult to get, or getting a Hosidan level 5 promoted rally skill...).

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20 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Also it is less that he gains little from guard stance, and more that speed is the most costly stat to shift when you don't have guard stance, which makes that already good stat even better in that challenge. There are numerous positional, and equipment buffs to damage, protection, and accuracy, all of which could also be gotten from pair-ups, but finding ways of shifting doubling thresholds in your favor is much more expensive without guard stance (for instance costing you your dance, costing tonics, costing your meal buff, requiring a Hosidan or S-Rank weapon that are difficult to get, or getting a Hosidan level 5 promoted rally skill...).

Those are all excellent and thought-provoking examples of why his performance in a run like yours is different from his performance in a general run.

20 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

His position will shift, but it sets a floor for him. Any unit that can perform in a 0% growth situation is never going to drop all the way to the bottom from that shifting, as it shows that he can find a niche with less resources spent.

Certainly it sets a floor, but the term "worst" is relative by nature, so "absolute" quality doesn't really apply.

Not saying Niles is bad, just to clarify.

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On 5/16/2022 at 5:40 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Plus the utility of captured units on Conquest, especially Lunatic, is massive, and unique to him, so training up a Niles to grab some of those is well worth it in the long run. How he could possibly even be in contention of the bottom with this utility under his belt is beyond me.

Once again, I don't think he is in contention for bottom - only that he is someone I would be very, very hesitant to recommend to someone as a long-term unit on Conquest. One thing I don't like my units to be is overspecialized (something that, in my view, Niles falls under, or if not, comes dangerously close to), because more often than not, their weaker stats drag down the worth of their good stat(s). Speed is one of the best stats in the games, probably even the best, but... Having all the speed in the world means jack shit if you don't have the stats to actually make that speed meaningful. I'm not going to "ooh" or "aah" over someone who has the speed to double everything when their damage is minor chip at best except against certain enemies. And considering how seal skills work in Fates (basically, if the user survives, you take a massive stat hit)... I'd rather use a bow unit that can actually damage and kill things (that don't have wings or low defense, mind you).

On 5/16/2022 at 5:40 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Admittedly finding a worst unit for Conquest is difficult because of how usable everyone is in that game. I even did a Lunatic Conquest run specifically with @Shadow Mir terrible three, and none of them were really terrible. Nyx was unimpressive at worst, an ever so slightly worse version of Ophelia, or Sorcerer Leo, but coming slightly earlier. Arthur is a bit of a liability if you do not glue his son to his knee, but that isn't exactly hard to do, and while he ended up noticeably worse than Charlotte, its hard to hold that against him as Charlotte is a terrifying combat monster that wrecks everything, and puts everyone's damage output to shame (if you actually train her). Nobody is even close to as bad as any of the older game's worst units; there are no Sophia, or Wendy, or Lyre, or Karla, or Nino, or Rolf, or Bantu, etc. level of bad here.

That's very, very, VERY generous of you to say, to be frank. And of course, that makes one of us. Those three, and Mozu (more on her later), are all in the "theoretically useful, but saddled with severe downsides that kill their usefulness" category, which is pretty damn bad in my book. Not to the level of Wendy or PoR Rolf or what have you, but still bad enough that I'm better off just using someone else, especially since they they have to offer isn't something that a superior unit can't do better.

On 5/15/2022 at 8:50 PM, Alastor15243 said:

Ooh! New Zoran video! He did Mozu's paralogue and makes his case why Mozu isn't a waste of a heart seal, and is in fact one of the most practical uses of it. That discussion is linked in the timestamps:

 

(Also, he's keeping Mozu in villager for a while for the purposes of this run, for a little extra cash. And he is still confident Nyx is going to be more annoying to train.)

Any time the argument for a unit can be summed up as "they're good, just spoonfeed them most of their joining chapter!" I cannot help but laugh my ass off because that's just ridiculous, and the person arguing that full damn well oughta know better. And that is literally the only defence I've seen for Mozu, like, ever. Which, to be blunt, is very telling.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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30 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And that is literally the only defence I've seen for Mozu, like, ever. Which, to be blunt, is very telling.

It's more like the only real weakness she has is her performance in one single, insultingly easy chapter, after which she more than carries her weight.

I know you've heard more "defenses" of her. Like how she's CQ's sole source of one of the best classes in the game, has amazing growths in everything she cares about but HP, has incredibly high availability, and thus can support super early and make incredibly strong children. You're just fixated on her starting stats and exaggerating how long they last.

Edited by Alastor15243

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1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

It's more like the only real weakness she has is her performance in one single, insultingly easy chapter, after which she more than carries her weight.

I know you've heard more "defenses" of her. Like how she's CQ's sole source of one of the best classes in the game, has amazing growths in everything she cares about but HP, has incredibly high availability, and thus can support super early and make incredibly strong children. You're just fixated on her starting stats and exaggerating how long they last.

Doesn't make it any less ridiculous to suggest, though.

Bold: She may have a good class... but she needs a very valuable Heart Seal to access it, of which there are only 5 for most of the game. And honestly, it wouldn't be hard for me to find 5 better uses for them than Mozu.

Italicized: Where did you get that from, 2003? Because that kind of argument wouldn't be out of place back in the days when people jizzed their pants over growths and didn't give a crap about base stats - the days when people worshipped the ground Nino walked on. Anyways, high growths don't make up for abysmal bases imho, otherwise Donnel wouldn't be looked at as being pretty much worthless (granted, Donnel has other factors going against him, but still).

The rest: If high availability really is that much of a godsend, then the likes of Nyx and Arthur wouldn't have been tossed around in this thread, now would they?

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37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Bold: She may have a good class... but she needs a very valuable Heart Seal to access it, of which there are only 5 for most of the game. And honestly, it wouldn't be hard for me to find 5 better uses for them than Mozu.

Like the video I linked said, most people around Mozu's join time are terrible candidates to use heart seals when you first get them. It's Elise for wyvern (which I can't help but note you also think is madness despite mountains of evidence to the contrary), Corrin for their subclass (while the dragonstone is still super useful), or your servant for skill shenanigans. Who exactly do you use those heart seals on that you think is a better call?

 

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Italicized: Where did you get that from, 2003? Because that kind of argument wouldn't be out of place back in the days when people jizzed their pants over growths and didn't give a crap about base stats - the days when people worshipped the ground Nino walked on. Anyways, high growths don't make up for abysmal bases imho, otherwise Donnel wouldn't be looked at as being pretty much worthless (granted, Donnel has other factors going against him, but still).

Donnel can't be brought up to pace with your army on a max-difficulty efficiency playthrough. Mozu easily can, as you have been shown multiple videos that soundly demonstrate. And Mozu is decidedly nothing like Nino, or Est. She can join as early as the second proper chapter and is up to speed with your army in a couple levels.

Edited by Alastor15243

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21 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Donnel can't be brought up to pace with your army on a max-difficulty efficiency playthrough. Mozu easily can, as you have been shown multiple videos that soundly demonstrate. And Mozu is decidedly nothing like Nino, or Est. She can join as early as the second proper chapter and is up to speed with your army in a couple levels.

>Mozu
>Efficient run
Pick one.

Which is to say, any actually efficient run wouldn't bother with her.

21 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Like the video I linked said, most people around Mozu's join time are terrible candidates to use heart seals when you first get them. It's Elise for wyvern (which I can't help but note you also think is madness despite mountains of evidence to the contrary), Corrin for their subclass (while the dragonstone is still super useful), or your servant for skill shenanigans. Who exactly do you use those heart seals on that you think is a better call?

Camilla, EASILY. I'd much rather have Wyvern Lord Camilla than Archer Mozu. Also, Felicia to pick up Inspiration early, and to work on tome rank in the event I want her in a magic class. The rest go to whatever whims I have in mind for that run. Also, I have no reason to consider Wyvern Elise as anything other than a gimmick - inaccurate weapons on a low skill unit is just asking for trouble. It might be better on promotion, but that's not enough to justify that.

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2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

>Mozu
>Efficient run
Pick one.

Which is to say, any actually efficient run wouldn't bother with her.

Watch this video already and then explain to me how a 10 turn clear that gets her to level 7 somehow isn't efficient.

 

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On 5/20/2022 at 1:17 PM, Alastor15243 said:

Watch this video already and then explain to me how a 10 turn clear that gets her to level 7 somehow isn't efficient.

 

If that's efficient to you, you must have seriously low standards for efficient... And the fact that he went out of his way to baby Mozu means it doesn't fly as "efficient", far as I'm concerned, because that is the absolute antithesis of "efficient". Most efficient runs wouldn't bother going out of their way to babysit someone who obviously is far more trouble than they're worth.

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16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If that's efficient to you, you must have seriously low standards for efficient... And the fact that he went out of his way to baby Mozu means it doesn't fly as "efficient", far as I'm concerned, because that is the absolute antithesis of "efficient". Most efficient runs wouldn't bother going out of their way to babysit someone who obviously is far more trouble than they're worth.

"Efficiency" is a matter of how many turns you take to win, not what you do during those turns. If you take 10 turns without "babying" Mozu, that's equally efficient to taking 10 turns with "babying". How quickly should the player have finished that map? How would you have played it?

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

If that's efficient to you, you must have seriously low standards for efficient... And the fact that he went out of his way to baby Mozu means it doesn't fly as "efficient", far as I'm concerned, because that is the absolute antithesis of "efficient". Most efficient runs wouldn't bother going out of their way to babysit someone who obviously is far more trouble than they're worth.

I'm no LTCer, but 10 turns seems pretty decent for an early game rout map. If you can clear a map quickly while babying a unit then yes, that is efficient. Clearing a map without training the unit means you're literally doing less in the same amount of time. Unless this map can be two turned or something, but even then the levels gained for a unit like Mozu and everyone else will probably shave off turns in future maps.

EDIT: Okay, now I've actually watched the video, and I question whether you bothered to, because that is very efficient play. His units aren't strong enough to just steamroll the map, it's basically just doing what you'd do any way in that map and just ensuring Mozu is the one to get the kills. The units aren't strong enough to one round the faceless, so it just makes sense and takes very little altering of strategy to use Mozu to deal damage at the end rather than at the start. Every unit is being used every turn to do something. It's text book dictionary of efficient.

Edited by Jotari

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At any rate, I will concede that Mozu's worth drops dramatically in BR, for a few reasons:

1: Way less incentive to player-phase

2: Way more archer options

Both of those combine to make her archer reclass significantly less useful or interesting.

I used her in my most recent playthrough and I really had to find excuses to make her good. But then that was the case for basically everyone who couldn't 1-2 range.

I'm not sure if she's the worst in BR, but I think I'd argue that Hayato is better. Comparable availability, but very good capacity for enemy-phasing if you get him up to speed, which is more useful than what you can do with a trained Mozu in BR I think.

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On 5/21/2022 at 8:01 PM, Alastor15243 said:

2: Way more archer options

Do you mean "archer" as in "general bow user" (by which I mean anyone who has the potential to use bows), or the archer class specifically? If you mean the latter specifically, then honestly, barring reclassing shenanigans, I'd find it hard to justify using anyone other than Takumi for an archer (largely because he is able to kick tail right out the box, as opposed to, say, Setsuna, who looks - and in fact is - extremely unimpressive in comparison).

Also, going back to the "train everyone" Paralogue 1 video, I don't know why Zoran made it a point to mention statues, as far more often than not, their effects are gonna be irrelevant. Raising stat caps is nice and all, but honestly, I wouldn't expect to be hitting caps much, if at all, without some serious luck and/or stat booster use. This means that as far as the main game is concerned, any player probably won't get much mileage out of that. I would also disagree with him on the Sol dagger build - it's way too unreliable for me to consider worth relying on. I'd much rather rely on someone who can actually take hits for enemy phase, as it's much safer than gambling on a Sol Master Ninja, who things can really quickly go to hell for if the RNG doesn't constantly smile upon them.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Do you mean "archer" as in "general bow user" (by which I mean anyone who has the potential to use bows), or the archer class specifically? If you mean the latter specifically, then honestly, barring reclassing shenanigans, I'd find it hard to justify using anyone other than Takumi for an archer (largely because he is able to kick tail right out the box, as opposed to, say, Setsuna, who looks - and in fact is - extremely unimpressive in comparison).

 

Does it matter? Either way, their statement is true.

If the archer class specifically: Birthright has Takumi, Setsuna, and Kiragi, while Conquest has... nobody (except a specific Corrin build, available to both routes). That's three more Archers than in Conquest. I agree that Takumi outclasses Setsuna, but he outclasses Mozu for similar reasons, which is what's relevant here.

If general bow users, we add Niles + Nina to Conquest and Reina + Yukimura to Birthright (with Shura on both routes).

Either way, by my count, Birthright is coming out 3 archers ahead. I might be forgetting someone, but Alastor's comment seems fair and accurate.

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21 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Does it matter? Either way, their statement is true.

If the archer class specifically: Birthright has Takumi, Setsuna, and Kiragi, while Conquest has... nobody (except a specific Corrin build, available to both routes). That's three more Archers than in Conquest. I agree that Takumi outclasses Setsuna, but he outclasses Mozu for similar reasons, which is what's relevant here.

If general bow users, we add Niles + Nina to Conquest and Reina + Yukimura to Birthright (with Shura on both routes).

Either way, by my count, Birthright is coming out 3 archers ahead. I might be forgetting someone, but Alastor's comment seems fair and accurate.

Well... I'm not arguing the statement is not true. I just want clarification, that's all.

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Yeah I meant archer specifically, due to its amazing skills and promotion options. And Zoran talks about statues because there are, in fact, good things you can so with them, most notably magic ones and vantage sorc Ophelia.

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9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Either way, by my count, Birthright is coming out 3 archers ahead. I might be forgetting someone, but Alastor's comment seems fair and accurate.

Also Midori, but she's on both routes.

If we consider "bow-using promotions", then Birthright adds Hinoka, Subaki, Caeldori, Saizo, Asugi, Kagero, Sakura, and Mitama (8). Whereas, Conquest adds Laslow, Soleil, and Severa (3). Both routes have Kaze and Shigure (2). So in this light, Birthright's bow advantage expands considerably.

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On 5/26/2022 at 4:06 AM, Alastor15243 said:

Yeah I meant archer specifically, due to its amazing skills and promotion options. And Zoran talks about statues because there are, in fact, good things you can so with them, most notably magic ones and vantage sorc Ophelia.

Okay then. I'ma be honest, though, for how good bows are in Fates, it's mind-boggling that they made Setsuna suck so badly. Archers are supposed to have high skill... but Setsuna doesn't. This is pretty troubling when considering that most yumi have hit rates of 70 or less. Besides that, she has abysmal growths pretty much everywhere but speed, and her bases are nothing to write home about either. Seriously, IS, balance your games better....

RE: statues: that implies that you can regularly expect to hit caps - something I already have a lot of trouble seeing happening with any regularity, as by its very nature, hitting stat caps is very heavily dependent on luck. Also, statues are pretty expensive to upgrade Dragon Vein point wise. The silver upgrade takes 3 Dragon Vein points, and the gold upgrade eats up a whopping 9(!!!). This means that unless you do a lot of side fights, upgrading even one statue to max will take a heavy toll on your Dragon Vein points. To put things into perspective, if you played through the main game alone, you only get something like 20 Dragon Vein points IIRC. Yeah... Long story short, I'm not seeing it unless you fight a LOT of side fights.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay then. I'ma be honest, though, for how good bows are in Fates, it's mind-boggling that they made Setsuna suck so badly. Archers are supposed to have high skill... but Setsuna doesn't. This is pretty troubling when considering that most yumi have hit rates of 70 or less. Besides that, she has abysmal growths pretty much everywhere but speed, and her bases are nothing to write home about either. Seriously, IS, balance your games better....

RE: statues: that implies that you can regularly expect to hit caps - something I already have a lot of trouble seeing happening with any regularity, as by its very nature, hitting stat caps is very heavily dependent on luck. Also, statues are pretty expensive to upgrade Dragon Vein point wise. The silver upgrade takes 3 Dragon Vein points, and the gold upgrade eats up a whopping 9(!!!). This means that unless you do a lot of side fights, upgrading even one statue to max will take a heavy toll on your Dragon Vein points. To put things into perspective, if you played through the main game alone, you only get something like 20 Dragon Vein points IIRC. Yeah... Long story short, I'm not seeing it unless you fight a LOT of side fights.

Dragon Vein points are trivial to get, even in Conquest, and don't necessarily require side fights.  Just visit friends' castles, or if you have no friends, visit random castles on the Internet.  If you run in and grab the ore / food and leave immediately, it takes practically no time at all.  (I suppose this might be a concern in 2028 when IS shuts down the Fates servers, but for now it isn't.)  For Birthright/Revelation, you can pick one of the early maps with awful enemies and repeatedly hit end turn on a solo-Corrin + skip enemy phase.  While you're right that it'll take a decent amount of fights, they'll blast by quickly.  Anyway, generally a pile of "medium" statues is sufficient since Fates characters generally can support with quite a lot of other characters; you only really want the 9-point statues for units with very few supports, like Anna / Izana / Yukimura / Reina, or captured enemies I guess.

Fates stat caps are low enough that they're absolutely hittable around end-game with average luck if you refuse to build any statues.  Especially for units with some high growth - Elise should easily cap her Magic, for example.  That said, there certainly are diminishing returns, it's not like Elise's combat worth will greatly differ from 35 to 38 Magic.

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10 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Okay then. I'ma be honest, though, for how good bows are in Fates, it's mind-boggling that they made Setsuna suck so badly. Archers are supposed to have high skill... but Setsuna doesn't. This is pretty troubling when considering that most yumi have hit rates of 70 or less. Besides that, she has abysmal growths pretty much everywhere but speed, and her bases are nothing to write home about either. Seriously, IS, balance your games better....

 

Good thing Setsuna's default class line learns an ability that gives her +40 hit, eh? Along with an earlier one which effectively gives her +4 str. On an almost purely player phase character, these pretty much render all of her stats irrelevant except for... you guessed it, her good speed.

Setsuna's skill isn't that important. Let's suppose, for sake of argument, her skill growth was buffed by 20%, giving her one of the better skill growths in the game. By the time she gains 20 levels, this NewAndImproved!Setsuna would lead OG Setsuna in Hit by... 6. I mention 21 levels, because with her 21st level she learns Uncertain Blow so who cares past that. Skill just isn't a very important stat in Fates.

I still don't think Setsuna is wonderful, because yeah Takumi and Reina are both largely better - Setsuna faces the same problems as Birthright Mozu in that there are other characters who fill her niche without her shaky start. But if you do use her, she turns out fine.

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8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Good thing Setsuna's default class line learns an ability that gives her +40 hit, eh? Along with an earlier one which effectively gives her +4 str. On an almost purely player phase character, these pretty much render all of her stats irrelevant except for... you guessed it, her good speed.

Except she starts at level 3, meaning you have to put up with her awful hit rates for a long while unless you early promote her.  And that Quick Draw skill that gives +4 Strength on player phase?  Takumi has it at base unlike Setsuna.

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Setsuna's skill isn't that important.

Until she reaches Level 5 as a Sniper to learn Certain Blow, it is important.  How else do you think Takumi has good hit rates before promoting despite most Yumi weapons having poor hit rates?  His high Skill.  Skill matters.

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52 minutes ago, FailWood said:

Until she reaches Level 5 as a Sniper to learn Certain Blow, it is important.  How else do you think Takumi has good hit rates before promoting despite most Yumi weapons having poor hit rates?  His high Skill.  Skill matters.

With a reminder before we start that I already noted that Takumi is obviously superior to Setsuna:

Setsuna joins with 8 less skill and 7 less luck than base Takumi. That's 15 less hit. Presumably if you're actually using her, she'll gain at least 4 levels before Takumi joins, though, closing the gap to about 6 skill and 6 luck = 12 hit. I'm curious as to how that gap could possibly explain how Setsuna has "awful" hit rates but Takumi has "good" hit rates, because it's not a terribly large gap in my eyes. I recall Birthright enemies having pretty bad evasion in most circumstances, to boot.

Reina, incidentally, falls in the middle somewhere, and is generally considered an extremely good unit, though of course does have a non-yumi weapon option. Mozu, of course, has 4 less skill and 2 less luck (= 7 less hit) than even base Setsuna, though thanks to growths she does catch up quickly.

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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Setsuna joins with 8 less skill and 7 less luck than base Takumi. That's 15 less hit. Presumably if you're actually using her, she'll gain at least 4 levels before Takumi joins, though, closing the gap to about 6 skill and 6 luck = 12 hit. I'm curious as to how that gap could possibly explain how Setsuna has "awful" hit rates but Takumi has "good" hit rates, because it's not a terribly large gap in my eyes.

Most hit rates Setsuna has at base are in the lower to mid 70's, and that's when she's in a neutral matchup with the weapon triangle (so when she's facing an Axe or other Bow user).  As a player, I'd want my hit rates to at least be 80% percent to feel comfortable about an attack I'm willing to go for.  Setsuna fails to reach that benchmark unless I train her, or give her a more accurate Yumi then the Iron she comes with, which at that point of the game are only the Bronze and Bamboo Yumi, and the latter cuts into her damage a fair bit.

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Brass Yumi is storebought for a measly 500 gold. It's not an imposition to get, and with it, she has comparable hit to Takumi with Fujin Yumi. Much less power, of course - again, I'm not arguing she's as good as him.

Base Setsuna's hit with Iron: 89. With Brass: 99. Attack Stance offers +10.

Her neutral-matchup hit rates against enemies in her first two maps on Lunatic, using Brass in pairup OR using Iron with an attack stance support are as follows:

  • Oni Savages: 86 displayed
  • Archers: 84 displayed
  • Shrine Maidens: 82 displayed
  • Lance Cavaliers: 88 displayed
  • Outlaws: 80 displayed
  • Knights: 92 displayed

Of course you can get higher hit (by 10) via Brass + Attack Stance if that's seen as a priority. You can also get +3 hit from a Skill Tonic, I suppose - not that I ever do. I don't think things really gets worse from here; I've assumed base Setsuna for all these enemies but realistically she's levelling up pretty quickly, especially if we send her to Mozu's paralogue (86 displayed hit vs the Faceless there).

Now if those numbers are still too low for you, that's fair enough. I just take issue with calling them "awful". Awful hit rates makes me think of e.g. Binding Blade axes, whose users have around 70 displayed hit against neutral matchups on a good day, and there's no attack stance to patch them up. Setsuna's clearly not in the same league; not only are her weapons more accurate at base (80 hit brass yumi vs. 65 hit Binding Blade iron axe), but Fates provides more methods to improve low hit.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I just take issue with calling them "awful". Awful hit rates makes me think of e.g. Binding Blade axes, whose users have around 70 displayed hit against neutral matchups on a good day, and there's no attack stance to patch them up.

Fair enough, "awful" was a bit strong of a word for me to use.  However, to be fair too Binding Blade Axes, my expectations towards them are going to be lower because I know they won't be reliable from the start, and that's applicable to all Axe users and not a specific one.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Of course you can get higher hit (by 10) via Brass + Attack Stance if that's seen as a priority. You can also get +3 hit from a Skill Tonic, I suppose - not that I ever do. I don't think things really gets worse from here; I've assumed base Setsuna for all these enemies but realistically she's levelling up pretty quickly, especially if we send her to Mozu's paralogue (86 displayed hit vs the Faceless there).

I sometimes forget that Tonics are a thing.  The issue I have with using Mozu's paralogue as an example for Birthright specifically is that it's very front loaded with units, and out of everyone who joins early, Setsuna is the last unit I would consider using that paralogue to level up.  I'd rather use it level up Mozu herself or Hayato.

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