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Worst unit in each game?

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I doubt that I'll add much to the conversation, but...

FE6: I'd say Wendy, since her only upside is that on a meme run where you use all three Ostian Armor units, she can do triangle attacks. Furthermore, I consider lances to be the weakest weapon type in FE6, and she joins as a lance-locked at the very worst time to be one.

FE7: I am certainly biased by my experiences, but Lyn and Wil are both pretty awful in my opinion, for reasons mentioned above.

FE8: Ewan or Amelia. I honestly don't think that Marisa is QUITE as bad as she's made out to be-she can at least still double and dodge decently enough. She's still really bad but really not that hard to use, especially on Eirika's route where she gets a couple of really easy maps to grind up on.

FE9: Rolf. He's not even good at getting rid of fliers.

FE10: I've never used her, but Lyre looks... Less than optimal, to say the least.

FE11: Vyland, I think? Bantu is at least useful as a 20-ish damage nuke in the short term; I mostly use the garbo units in FE11, and in my experience, Bantu brings a little to the table that the other bad units really can't-Vyland does absolutely nothing at all.

Berwick Saga: Aside from Derrick, (who can occasionally be useful thanks to his defense, in my opinion) I must give a shout-out to Saphira. Berwick is generally somewhat unkind to healers, and she's got it worst of all by quite a long shot.

FE16: I have literally no idea who's objectively good or not, since I only played through once and basically did a Warrior Lysithea solo, but I would like to scold Ingrid for having a strength stat equal to my own.

43 minutes ago, GonzoMD1993 said:

Does she actually get one rounded by Archers? Please tell me that's in HM at least xd It'd be beyond pathetic for an Armor Knight to get one rounded by an Archer in NM (although it's still plenty pathetic that they one round her in HM).

In HM? Yeah. I'm not too sure in NM, but I can imagine that it would be touch-and-go for her.

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48 minutes ago, GonzoMD1993 said:

Does she actually get one rounded by Archers? Please tell me that's in HM at least xd It'd be beyond pathetic for an Armor Knight to get one rounded by an Archer in NM (although it's still plenty pathetic that they one round her in HM).

Dunno about normal mode (maybe someone else here can run through real quick and get the numbers) but I do remember that she gets ORKOed in hard mode.

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12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Still doesn't make up for the fact that she needs two other bad units fielded just to look trainable

That is more trainable than her competition for the bottom slot, Sophia.

 

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

AND to pretty much revolve my strategy around getting them into position, from my point of view

Its not all that hard to setup triangle attacks, I setup quite a few on the FE6 HM ironman succession LP on chapter 8 for funsies (no losses on that chapter either).

https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/89699-fire-emblem-6-ironman-succession-game-complete/page/2/&tab=comments#comment-5539374

 

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Long story short, I'm calling you out for a double standard, as I cannot see how you're okay with fielding Bors in one chapter for a triangle attack despite the fact that you have many better options for units, yet have problems with Arthur needing Percy fielded to counteract the negative effect of his personal.

...

19 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

First, the entire cast of Conquest is much more usable in their game than either of Wendy, or Sophia are in theirs.

That was literally the first line of the comment you are responding to. The quality of Conquest units are a lot closer together, and as such it takes much smaller faults to see a unit fall to the bottom. The FE6 units have quality that is all over the place, and there is a lot more room to fall before any unit reaches the bottom. I am only comparing a units to units in the same game, not to units from other games.

 

11 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I disagree. Shinon's contributions before leaving are worth more than whatever Rolf can offer, and I don't think the ability to make a unit good with 20 extra levels actually indicates that they're good.

I really don't remember Shinon contributing much before he leaves, and Rolf doesn't need even need 20 levels to beat out Shinons stat. Average Rolf matches Shinon's strength and defense at level 11, speed and luck by level 15, skill and resistance by level 17, and all of these before promotion.

I guess my logic here is if you are going to use an archer of any sort in Path of Radiance, neither of them have the stats to really help without training, but you can also mitigate the suffering of training terrible units with Bexp, so that isn't as large of a hurdle as it normally is in FE. If you consider each part of chapter 17 as a chapter, then Rolf has ~10 chapters of availability (and potential time for training) more than Shinon, and if you do bother to training one of these dumpster fires, Rolf will end up more usable

 

 

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anywhere, here's who I think is the worst unit in Three Houses... but on a route-by-route basis.

Sigh...yeah I should have done a route-by-route analysis, but I really didn't want to.

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3 hours ago, GonzoMD1993 said:

Does she actually get one rounded by Archers? Please tell me that's in HM at least xd It'd be beyond pathetic for an Armor Knight to get one rounded by an Archer in NM (although it's still plenty pathetic that they one round her in HM).

Nope.

Normal.

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4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I really don't remember Shinon contributing much before he leaves, and Rolf doesn't need even need 20 levels to beat out Shinons stat. Average Rolf matches Shinon's strength and defense at level 11, speed and luck by level 15, skill and resistance by level 17, and all of these before promotion.

I guess my logic here is if you are going to use an archer of any sort in Path of Radiance, neither of them have the stats to really help without training, but you can also mitigate the suffering of training terrible units with Bexp, so that isn't as large of a hurdle as it normally is in FE. If you consider each part of chapter 17 as a chapter, then Rolf has ~10 chapters of availability (and potential time for training) more than Shinon, and if you do bother to training one of these dumpster fires, Rolf will end up more usable

The thing with Shinon is that he DOES have the stats to help with 0 training before he leaves. When you get him back he's crap, sure, and if you've been using Rolf at all he's definitely going to be better than Shinon at that point. But the fact still remains that Shinon is a perfectly good combat unit in chapters 3 through 7 that has no trouble killing stuff with no investment, and in fact, you would have to go out of your way to make him not contribute to combat on certain maps such as map 7.

But Rolf has none of that; you need to either spoon feed him a bunch of kills or dump a bunch of BEXP on him for Rolf to start meaningfully contributing to combat. BEXP, generous as it is, is still a limited resource no different from stat boosters. And the thing is that resources are almost always better spent on making good units even better than trying to fix a bad unit only to result into a barely usable, mediocre unit. That doesn't mean that you can't use Rolf or that he can't turn out good, but making him good means dumping a ton of resources on him that were better spent elsewhere and even then he's still going to be held back by his crappy class that's locked to 2 range and whose whole shtick is doing effective damage to flyers in a game where effective damage is only x2.

Shinon is obviously also stuck being a Sniper, but he's good at base for the early game chapters that you have him and there's no opportunity cost to using him there.

3 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Nope.

Normal.

Welp, that's a big yikes. I knew she was bad but I had forgotten exactly how bad she was xd

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For SD: Yeah, Bantu. Can´t reclass, limited weaponry, bad stats. Imagine your only purpose in life is recruiting Tiki, but Nagi exists. Granted, I´ve heard you might actually be able to get some use out of him if you are playing on lower difficulties. 

I´m gonna go ahead and call Nyx... actually scratch that, if Gunther dies nothing of value will be lost in CQ so he gets my vote. But Nyx is a close second, considering she joins 1 chapter after Odin, 1 chapter before Swiss Army Knife Camilla joins, Leo does exist somewhere in the world, Elise can be early promoted to wreck havoc as a Strategist, Ophelia is a good and possibly early available Mage and Corrin is also able to do the magic thing with Stones or reclass, but better than Nyx in any case.

Only considering in house units for their respective paths, but Raphael for the Golden Deer. Can´t tank, can´t deal damage, gambits suck, PS sucks. Even his Paralogue sucks. His greatest achievement in life is luring 1x enemy out, but even that is better done by someone like Leonie with PS active.

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38 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

I´m gonna go ahead and call Nyx... actually scratch that, if Gunther dies nothing of value will be lost in CQ so he gets my vote. But Nyx is a close second, considering she joins 1 chapter after Odin, 1 chapter before Swiss Army Knife Camilla joins, Leo does exist somewhere in the world, Elise can be early promoted to wreck havoc as a Strategist, Ophelia is a good and possibly early available Mage and Corrin is also able to do the magic thing with Stones or reclass, but better than Nyx in any case.

If Gunther dies then Corrin loses a very useful backpack, Gunther's personal alone is reason enough to keep him around, and even if he didn't have that, his class availability makes him good as a pair up unit.

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Echoes: I think Sonya- between the downsides of her classline, her low joining level combined with her ridiculously high promotion level, and the fact that Deen is a pretty great unit in her own right, I think she has the most things going against her of the whole cast. Any unit can be raised and do well in Echoes (except Mycen and Nomah obviously, but they at least have utility when they join), but I think Sonya is the most costly to raise, even if she would turn out well in the end.

3H: Anna if we include DLC, but if not, Ashe. Sorry Ashe, but there's simply nothing you can do that would actually be useful. That one discussion recently about Wyvern Lord Hapi really made me realise just how poorly off Ashe is lmao.

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31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

If Gunther dies then Corrin loses a very useful backpack, Gunther's personal alone is reason enough to keep him around, and even if he didn't have that, his class availability makes him good as a pair up unit.

Gunther makes a physical (& fast) Corrin very good - from chapter 15 onwards - but that´s not something particularly noteworthy. Ofc, Gunther also screws Kana if you care, and is also not a unit you can just unpair, should you require a different PU, considering how weak he is. 

He also only supports Corrin and Jakob if I´m reading that right, so have fun with basic class PU stats for everyone else as opposed to a full set of stats.

If Corrin really wants a class, you take it in the character creator.

I guess Nohrian Trust exists but eeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

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16 minutes ago, Imuabicus said:

Gunther makes a physical (& fast) Corrin very good - from chapter 15 onwards - but that´s not something particularly noteworthy. Ofc, Gunther also screws Kana if you care, and is also not a unit you can just unpair, should you require a different PU, considering how weak he is. 

He also only supports Corrin and Jakob if I´m reading that right, so have fun with basic class PU stats for everyone else as opposed to a full set of stats.

If Corrin really wants a class, you take it in the character creator.

I guess Nohrian Trust exists but eeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

I'm not talking about the classes he provides Corrin, I'm talking about the classes he literally has as a pair up unit. Why are Wyvern and Paladin, both great classes for Pair Up material. He also makes Corrin a lot more accurate, which is a very desired trade on Conquest. And it's not like making him Corrin's pair up partner means they're forced to marry. Getting Corrin hitched with someone else isn't the most difficult thing in the world. Gunther can be a dedicated A support partner to Corrin while their S support runs around doing other things (or just accept the confusing split timeline that means Gunther may or may not be possessed by Anankos and let Corrin marry her own father).

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4 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

if Gunther dies nothing of value will be lost in CQ so he gets my vote.

Gunter has a couple of odd things happening under the hood helping him out. He starts at a very high level, but an extremely low internal level (meaning he gets more experience than his level would suggest) and effectively two free eternal seals (so he caps at level 30 promoted instead of 20) making it much easier for him to get access to those powerful level 15 promoted skills.

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I'm not convinced that "worst unit", viewed in a vacuum,  is really a meaningful concept. Worst at some particular task or role, certainly, or worst by a particular well-defined metric, but not just "worst". As such (and because I'm feeling a little contrary today):

  • Sacred Stones: Orson. He's only around for one chapter and he steals xp from other units who could use it.
  • Path of Radiance: Giffca. Yes, he's an overpowered demigod, but the opportunity cost of using him is that you don't get to have a flying overpowered demigod.
  • Radiant Dawn: Oliver. He's yet another filler unit whose only real use cases are "because I like him" and "to show that I can" but unlike certain other units who are in that position, he also doesn't come with any unequippable skills or any base conversations that he unlocks.
  • Shadow Dragon: Marth. This is a game that goes out of its way to make sure that you never run out of units, which means that everyone can be sacrificed, risked, or put into dangerous situations. Everyone except for Marth, who you need to handle with kid gloves because he's the only unit who carries a lose condition.
  • Awakening: Olivia. In a game that's so fond of ambush spawns, having a non-combat unit is just a liability.
  • Fates: Shiro. Part of the point of the second generation units is to be able to replace lost units whenever you need them. Shiro fails at this because of the bad late-game scaling of his paralogue that means you have to take risks or use resources to be able to recruit him.
  • Shadows of Valentia: Faye (prologue version). I don't know how they're coded, but the prologue kids certainly act as if they're different units to their grown counterparts. They're all terrible, but Faye is the worst of the bunch.
  • Three Houses: Edelgard. She's a trap unit. Yeah, there are other units who can be taken away from you mid-run, but the game doesn't push you as heavily to invest in them.

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30 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Gunter has a couple of odd things happening under the hood helping him out. He starts at a very high level, but an extremely low internal level (meaning he gets more experience than his level would suggest) and effectively two free eternal seals (so he caps at level 30 promoted instead of 20) making it much easier for him to get access to those powerful level 15 promoted skills.

I somewhat doubt that his access to lvl 15 skills makes him a unit that can stand on his own. On top of the cost of reclassing and keeping in mind stat changes while reclassing. His stats simply seem to low. Only thing I can see, being very generous, is an accurate  PP unit against 1 weapon type (Axe/Sword/Shuriken) with Elbow Room and Trample and he doesn´t have the SPD to double. Maybe enough STR for Ninjas with a forged weapon. Maybe. And none of that is special/nessecary.

And I doubt any Kana would want to have Gunter as dad for matters of inheritance.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Why are Wyvern and Paladin, both great classes for Pair Up material.

WL and GK. MK and Paladin seem unfocused in what stats they grant, but that may just be me.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

He also makes Corrin a lot more accurate, which is a very desired trade on Conquest.

I have yet to get a Corrin who reeeeaaaalllyyy struggles to hit stuff, but fair enough.

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10 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That is more trainable than her competition for the bottom slot, Sophia.

IF you blow two more slots on crappy units that share most of her flaws, which carries a MASSIVE opportunity cost. Also, she comes along as a lance-locked unit at the absolute worst time to be one - right before the axe-dominated Western Isles. In my humble opinion, availability only is meaningful if you're not dragging the team down with your presence, and you can be feasibly trained. And even if I could feasibly train her, she's still held back by being an armored unit in a game with big maps. Long story short, I would agree if I didn't have to maim myself to make her look trainable.

9 hours ago, Samz707 said:

Nope.

Normal.

Whoa, seriously?! Yikers!

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1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

I somewhat doubt that his access to lvl 15 skills makes him a unit that can stand on his own. On top of the cost of reclassing and keeping in mind stat changes while reclassing. His stats simply seem to low. Only thing I can see, being very generous, is an accurate  PP unit against 1 weapon type (Axe/Sword/Shuriken) with Elbow Room and Trample and he doesn´t have the SPD to double. Maybe enough STR for Ninjas with a forged weapon. Maybe. And none of that is special/nessecary.

Wyvern Lord Gunter is a goddamn hero in Kitsune Hell, combining good mobility, the Beast Killer, solid armor knight stats, and no Beastfoe weakness. Plus, having a flying statpack is great for non-flying Corrin builds.

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Whoa, seriously?! Yikers!

I was honestly blown away when it happened. "Ah, I'll have Wendy lure that Archer close for when  I break the wal- how the hell is she dead already?"

I know you're intended to check stats, but I really think "surviving one round of combat with an archer on their join chapter" is something I should be able to assume an Armor Knight is capable of.

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8 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wyvern Lord Gunter is a goddamn hero in Kitsune Hell, combining good mobility, the Beast Killer, solid armor knight stats, and no Beastfoe weakness. Plus, having a flying statpack is great for non-flying Corrin builds.

Performing well on the grand-fur-gambit isn´t the achievement you make it out to be. 

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2 hours ago, lenticular said:

Path of Radiance: Giffca. Yes, he's an overpowered demigod, but the opportunity cost of using him is that you don't get to have a flying overpowered demigod.

Counterpoint: Using Naesala or Tibarn comes at the cost of +2 Str on Giffca in a continued campaign in Radiant Dawn, so they're tied for worst unit in the game.

(I could actually see the royals as bottom tier, at least on hard mode. If you can beat Ashnard's first form, you probably won't need the help against his 'zerker form, and they aren't around to help if you struggle against the basic form. Depends on how one weighs things, I guess - Rolf is a lot of investment for little results, but he does end up with passable player phase combat if you're commiting to it)

Edited by ping

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7 hours ago, GonzoMD1993 said:

Welp, that's a big yikes. I knew she was bad but I had forgotten exactly how bad she was xd

 

23 minutes ago, Samz707 said:

I was honestly blown away when it happened. "Ah, I'll have Wendy lure that Archer close for when  I break the wal- how the hell is she dead already?"

I know you're intended to check stats, but I really think "surviving one round of combat with an archer on their join chapter" is something I should be able to assume an Armor Knight is capable of.

I have no words. Only this video, where Wario says what I'm thinking for me:

 

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For Awakening, I'd say Donnel or Panne. Donnel's awful start makes him nigh impossible to use for no grind, and two of his classes have Hero overlap, limiting his advanced skill diversity. Panne's classlock and lack of access to decent skills (only proc is Lethality) make her fall behind.

 

Fates it has to be Odin by far. What was once the Apotheosis-destroying man of the hour is this weird hybrid growth dark mage that they wanted to easily transition back to the Myrmidon reclass but it ended up both of his offensive growths mediocre. 

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Only listing the games I've played at least twice.

Binding Blade: Gwendolyn. Sophia at least has more move, better ranged combat, and staves on promotion.

Blazing Blade: Karla, or Wallace if he doesn't get promoted in Lyn mode. Anyone who says Lyn for this is baiting.

Sacred Stones: Amelia.

Path of Radiance: Rolf.

Radiant Dawn: Lyre.

Awakening: A tough one, but I'll go with Inigo.

Fates: Odin. I don't know who I'd pick for Birthright.

Three Houses: As much as it hurts me to do this...Anna.

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1 hour ago, Florete said:

Fates: Odin. I don't know who I'd pick for Birthright.

Is Odin in the context of Conquest, Revelation, or both? RE: Birthright, I'd say Subaki and Rinkah stand out as the cream of the crap, more so the former because Hinoka joins only one chapter later and renders him obsolete.

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1 hour ago, Heritor said:

For Awakening, I'd say Donnel or Panne. Donnel's awful start makes him nigh impossible to use for no grind, and two of his classes have Hero overlap, limiting his advanced skill diversity. Panne's classlock and lack of access to decent skills (only proc is Lethality) make her fall behind.

Taguel is definitely a subpar class, but Panne's growths as a Wyvern Lord are actually great (105% HP, 75% STR, 70% SPD), and her +2 strength and +3 speed modifiers aren't anything to scoff at either. She does require a Second Seal if you want her to excel, but by the time she joins they should be available to purchase from some merchants. I wouldn't say she's a bad unit at all, but Donnel for sure LOL.

11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Is Odin in the context of Conquest, Revelation, or both? RE: Birthright, I'd say Subaki and Rinkah stand out as the cream of the crap, more so the former because Hinoka joins only one chapter later and renders him obsolete.

Ehhh I mean, maybe I'm just biased because Subaki is one of my favorite characters, but Falcon Knight does offer him some utility as a flier. Hinoka's offenses are good, so you want her to be on the front to be fighting, so Subaki can ferry units around as a secondary flier. His magic isn't great, but at least he still has access to flying-rescue naturally (without the need of a Heart Seal). He has less competition in Revelations, making him a little better since he's the only flier for the Wind Tribe chapter, and Reina joins much later as an EXP sponge.

Rinkah, however, does definitely lack any type of combat-prowess or utility and I definitely agree that she's one of the lesser characters in Birthright.

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Sorry for such a late response, was busy this week.  Here are my picks:

Blazing Sword: Karla.  14 Base Strength with only 3 chapters left (2 if you skip/miss 32X) when she joins you is just awful.  Plus getting her requires that you train Bartre, who's also not very good.  As for Eliwood mode since she's not there at all, my pick goes to Nino as training her can be tricky, as most enemies one round or even one shot her

Sacred Stones: Marisa (in Ephraim Route).  Another case of joining much later then another character of the same class.  In Eirika Route, my pick is Ewan for have defenses that's worse then paper.

Path of Radiance: Rolf.  Relies too heavily on his first few levels needing to be good, plus Bows aren't very good in this game.

Radiant Dawn: Fiona.  Only available for 2 maps in Act 1, and also comes with rough bases.  While Savoir is free for her, you can easily take it off her and give it to someone else.

Shadow Dragon: Norne.  You have to kill off one of your other units (besides the sacrifice) in the Prologue to even get her, so you'll most likely never see her.

Awakening: Virion.  A rough base Speed on a unit who starts as an Archer so he's not likely to counter attack.  I know Donnel (who has been brought up plenty here) has even worse bases, but training him isn't that hard, and his Growths are insane, even for Awakening's standards.

Fates Birthright: Setsuna.  Has major accuracy issues between her poor Skill and Yumis that have poor hit rates.  Also is in the same route as Takumi, who has overall higher bases (besides having one less Res) including a base Skill of 17 as well as the Fujin Yumi that has 14 Mt.

Fates Conquest: Charlotte.  Is very fragile despite her high base HP due to her lacking Defense and especially Res and has accuracy issues.  Also joins at a point where you have most of your team figured out while having nothing she can provide that isn't already done by someone else.

Fates Revelations: Gunter.  His inability to support Corrin in this route hinders him greatly, and doesn't have the bases that he has in Conquest either while still having his awful growths.

Shadows of Valentia: Nomah.  Gets one rounded by nearly everything due his awful Speed (which has a growth of 0%) and Defense.

Three Houses: Anna.  Can't support anyone, and lacking in stats outside of Speed.  If DLC is not a factor, then I'll go with Manuela.  Has an awkward Faith magic spell list and a bane in Reason, and lacks the Magic to use those spells very well.  Also lacks Strength to fight physically in case of emergencies.

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11 hours ago, lenticular said:

I'm not convinced that "worst unit", viewed in a vacuum,  is really a meaningful concept. Worst at some particular task or role, certainly, or worst by a particular well-defined metric, but not just "worst". As such (and because I'm feeling a little contrary today):

I meant in terms of general performance compared to the rest if the cast rather then how they are conceptually, but you bring up a good point.  Guess I can't afford leave out anything when creating a topic, eh?

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