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FailWood

Worst unit in each game?

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7 hours ago, Cysx said:

I've used Nyx regularly to some success in lunatic(thanks heartseeker), but wasn't there a thing about immediately promoting her to Dark knight since she joins at level 9?  Makes her solid for a bunch of chapters(including good ol' ch 10), then she can become a solid pairup bot, something like that?

Speaking of pairup, Rinkah, Arthur and Charlotte are all considered as some of the best physical backpacks in Fates, and none are even close to unusable in their respective game. FE6HM showers you with units that are legitimately difficult to get anywhere.

She's just way too fragile for my tastes. That's not something I am willing to abide (sure, I'll admit, mages in general are poor at taking physical hits, but Nyx takes it to the point where she's little more than a liability, as she's so feeble that she's likely going to be at risk of one-shots, especially later on. This limits the use that she can get out of Heartseeker). Also, I frankly consider early promoting her to be wasteful, as that means I'm making my army worse overall by delaying the formation of my A-Team.

You won't get any argument from me about Binding Blade having a lot of units that are hard to get anywhere. That's one of the many, MANY things I despise about it. But on the other hand, I consider all those units you mentioned to need constant maintenance just to not be a burden (and frankly, if they're complete ass as a lead and thus all they're good for is being pair up bots, that's not much better than being useless).

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

stoneborn have a huge def/res gap

And likely one-shot her in retaliation because her HP and defense are shit.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

chapter 13: There are a bunch of armours in the east

How fortuitous that the chapter before that one gives me an armourslayer then.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

chapter 10: There's a fire orb, she's automatically useful. Also there are onis in the west.

Odin can use it too (as can Ophelia, if I felt like getting her that early), so that's not something she gets credit for.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The units I described are not that rare (they're present on more maps than not), they're not hard for her to hit, and they're not that easy for your other units to deal with because of their high defence and low res... that's the whole point of using a mage.

Okay, but when the only mages I have to choose from are subpar at best (either because they cannot take a hit or reliably kill enemies, both of which are true of Nyx), it wouldn't be unusual for me to pass over them entirely. It sure as hell wouldn't be the first time that skipping certain niches entirely in team building was a viable move, otherwise "Horse Emblem" wouldn't have become a term in the first place. That said, it doesn't go that far in Conquest because Ophelia and Leo are actually useful, but in Birthright, on the other hand...

Edited by Shadow Mir

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53 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

And likely one-shot her in retaliation because her HP and defense are shit.

Give her an HP Tonic if that's the case. You can check the numbers before you start the map.

54 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

How fortuitous that the chapter before that one gives me an armourslayer then.

Armourslayers are nice too, but trigger counters (which deal a lot of damage to most sword-users) and have less range flexibility than magic.

55 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Odin can use it too (as can Ophelia, if I felt like getting her that early), so that's not something she gets credit for.

Ophelia that early absolutely requires grinding, seeing as Odin has only had less than two maps before that one (+1 if you save Mozu's paralogue). Odin, fair, although worth mentioning that Nyx has higher magic, the only stat that particularly matters for using a fire orb. That said, why not deploy and use both? One can operate a fire orb while one tackles the onis directly, for instance.

Anyway, to be clear, my point isn't that I think Nyx is great; she isn't. I typically bench her within a few maps of her joining, myself. I just think that, considering that she's one of the weaker units in Conquest, it's still very easy to find a niche for her.

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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Nyx has higher magic, the only stat that particularly matters for using a fire orb.

If I'm not wrong, don't artillery in Fates ignore the user's stats (which would mean that it doesn't matter who uses it)?

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Give her an HP Tonic if that's the case. You can check the numbers before you start the map.

The Stoneborn with rocks have 37/38 attack, and those with Massive Rocks have 43/44. I'm not sure that an HP Tonic alone would be enough to take Nyx out of OHKO territory...

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Armourslayers are nice too, but trigger counters (which deal a lot of damage to most sword-users) and have less range flexibility than magic.

Well, when your mage options are subpar (as is the case with anyone not named Ophelia or Leo in Fates), I need SOMETHING to use that can get rid of them with ease. Otherwise, point taken.

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5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

She's just way too fragile for my tastes. That's not something I am willing to abide (sure, I'll admit, mages in general are poor at taking physical hits, but Nyx takes it to the point where she's little more than a liability, as she's so feeble that she's likely going to be at risk of one-shots, especially later on. This limits the use that she can get out of Heartseeker). Also, I frankly consider early promoting her to be wasteful, as that means I'm making my army worse overall by delaying the formation of my A-Team.

You won't get any argument from me about Binding Blade having a lot of units that are hard to get anywhere. That's one of the many, MANY things I despise about it. But on the other hand, I consider all those units you mentioned to need constant maintenance just to not be a burden (and frankly, if they're complete ass as a lead and thus all they're good for is being pair up bots, that's not much better than being useless).

I can't really argue about Conquest in detail. There's too much I don't remember, need to replay it first.

My main line of defense for Rinkah back then was that the existence of attack stance allowed other units to attack through her walling as long as she had 1-2 range equipped(through throwing club at first, but eventually horse spirit, which is a pretty good defensive weapon). This keeps her up to speed exp wise(one wouldn't think so, but it does, very well at that), and results in easy enemy phase chipping as well as quite a bit of additional exp and (especially) wexp in the long run. Oboro can pull off much the same thing, though, and while this works, there are simpler ways through Birthright Luna. Regardless, she has very limited potential as a combat unit, while she can at least take hits to the face more competently than most BR units, so...

... then there's indeed pairup, which is frowned upon by many others than yourself, but... it is a form of utility, at the end of the day, that not all characters share(especially in her case, as the sole base Oni savage). I believe she's also the only source of Blacksmith and thus Lancebreaker for Ryoma? MyCastle abuse notwithstanding. Those do not beat being a good unit, clearly, but if the question is "did this character's presence contribute to beating the map", and the answer is yes... that's not nothing. Staffbots don't fight, Dancers don't fight, Pairups don't fight(in Fates). It's not fundamentally that different.

Edited by Cysx

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37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If I'm not wrong, don't artillery in Fates ignore the user's stats (which would mean that it doesn't matter who uses it)?

You're right, yep, my bad.

37 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The Stoneborn with rocks have 37/38 attack, and those with Massive Rocks have 43/44. I'm not sure that an HP Tonic alone would be enough to take Nyx out of OHKO territory...

Level 7 Nyx averages 26 HP/9 def as a Sorcerer, 29 HP/9 def as a Dark Knight. So the regular rock ones are easy to survive, the massive rocks might need a little more investment depending on how the class choice and averages go (e.g. Dark Knight + HP Tonic + Def Tonic survives with 1 HP to spare... other options include Seraph Robe, Rally Defence, and a +def pairup). At worst, she can be used as a powerful finisher (Lightning makes a particularly potent weapon).

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7 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Level 7 Nyx averages 26 HP/9 def as a Sorcerer, 29 HP/9 def as a Dark Knight.

At 20/7 she'd have 13 Def as a Dark Knight.

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'tis the day for me to make mistakes, apparently. I was looking at her luck by mistake. I was wondering why DK didn't have more def than Sorcerer!

Anyway that means it's definitely a bit easier on average for Dark Knight Nyx, at least, to survive a hit from even the stronger Stoneborn. (If she's promoted below 20 it might be a bit tougher, but then she makes up for that with some improved utility from her early promotion, of course.)

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I'm not sure if I'm more surprised that Subaki and Rinkah are being discussed as the worst Birthright unit, or that Setsuna isn't part of that discussion.  ...Or how Birthright is the most talked about game on this topic.

I absolutely see the flaws mentioned with those two.  Subaki has never been one for Strength, and Hinoka joins only one chapter later then him.  Rinkah's high Defense is usually her only standout stat, but still lacks HP to complement it.  Her Skill cap in her base class is only 14, which is absolutely terrible when higher level Clubs have bad hit rates, and her Magic is too low to make much use of Scrolls if she goes Oni Chieftain.  She also starts with E rank in her base class, a flaw that only her and Mozu share (Corrin has a lot of time to train Sword/Katana rank from E before the decision, and Sakura is a healer so it doesn't hinder her very much).

On the other hand, Subaki is still a flyer at base so he can help ferry other units around, and has decent enough bulk to do that job just fine.  Rinkah has one of the better personal skills in Fates with Fiery Blood (+4 damage dealt when she's not at full health), and can patch her poor Skill by going Blacksmith upon promotion, while also giving her a more accurate weapon option with Katanas (she'll still have to raise it from E rank, but thems the breaks).

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3 hours ago, FailWood said:

I'm not sure if I'm more surprised that Subaki and Rinkah are being discussed as the worst Birthright unit, or that Setsuna isn't part of that discussion.  ...Or how Birthright is the most talked about game on this topic.

Duh, may as well include Orochi, who won´t hit twice, but at least she will hit that one hit she has, or Hana who may just be able to survive 1 round of combat on PP but god forbid she´s in range of the enemy on their phase.

Or you know, maybe Mozu. Who´s been named what, 3x in this thread, but never as the worst unit, to my great surprise.

Best thing about Rinkah is that she lowers the Res of enemies for... Orochi, Corrin, mayhaps Felicia1 with Fire Shuriken, accordingly promoted Sakura/Azama and whatever magic children you get. She also technically doesn´t have a problem with skill sitting pretty at 50% base growth, but her base is meh and Oni is just not good for skill in any way; pluy she has, for whatever reason a -2 Skill modifier. Also something, something Bolt Axe.

Nothing will ever be as funny as one of the slowest units in the game havin a +15 Hit/Avo PS. Why. One thing though, since Hinoka has been brought up in respect to obsoleting Subaki - I personally quite like making Hinoka a second Spear Fighter since she is an even better Oboro, so teeeeeeechnically I´d still have an airplane with Subaki. But hey, L&D Kinshi Knight ftw.

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1 hour ago, Imuabicus said:

One thing though, Hinoka has been brought up in respect to obsoleting Subaki

I'm not sure why people say this. You know what's better than one Sky Knight? TWO Sky Knights!

Edited by #1 Claude Trash

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14 minutes ago, #1 Claude Trash said:

Why do people say this? You know what's better than one Sky Knight? TWO Sky Knights!

It ain't better when one of them is an anchor that's taking up a unit slot that could've been used for a superior unit.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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10 minutes ago, #1 Claude Trash said:

Why do people say this? You know what's better than one Sky Knight? TWO Sky Knights!

Don´t ask me, I didn´t bring it up originally but if you ask me specifically - I couldn´t care less about fLyInG uTiLiTy and that leaves only combat potential, which Subaki doesn´t have - relative to the rest of BR.

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10 hours ago, FailWood said:

I'm not sure if I'm more surprised that Subaki and Rinkah are being discussed as the worst Birthright unit, or that Setsuna isn't part of that discussion.  ...Or how Birthright is the most talked about game on this topic.

I mentioned in my list that I didn't know who to put for Birthright, but I had forgotten about Setsuna. Yeah, it's probably Setsuna for me. Subaki has decent bases and flier utility, and I've actually gotten a ton of value out of Rinkah as a pair up bot and off-tank. I don't think Rinkah is necessarily good, but I do think she's underrated if people are considering her to be the worst unit.

Setsuna just...has nothing.

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11 minutes ago, Florete said:

I mentioned in my list that I didn't know who to put for Birthright, but I had forgotten about Setsuna. Yeah, it's probably Setsuna for me. Subaki has decent bases and flier utility, and I've actually gotten a ton of value out of Rinkah as a pair up bot and off-tank. I don't think Rinkah is necessarily good, but I do think she's underrated if people are considering her to be the worst unit.

Setsuna just...has nothing.

It's weird, because bows are actually pretty good in Fates. More so in Conquest than Birthright, but Takumi is still a pretty great unit and Kinshi Knight is a class most characters can make work. Yet still Setsuna is just not very good. Like I don't even know what her issues are as a unit, she just under performs when she's around so much that I have absolutely no interest of trying to make her work at all.

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I think I'd rather have Setsuna than Hana. Setsuna is carried by Yumi mt and archer/sniper skills to the point where their outputs are similar, and neither have much of an enemy phase anyway.

11 hours ago, FailWood said:

...Or how Birthright is the most talked about game on this topic.

I'm not sure that's true overall(people spent a while on FE6), but mostly... it is kinda tough to say.

11 hours ago, FailWood said:

Rinkah's high Defense is usually her only standout stat, but still lacks HP to complement it.  Her Skill cap in her base class is only 14, which is absolutely terrible when higher level Clubs have bad hit rates, and her Magic is too low to make much use of Scrolls if she goes Oni Chieftain.  She also starts with E rank in her base class, a flaw that only her and Mozu share (Corrin has a lot of time to train Sword/Katana rank from E before the decision, and Sakura is a healer so it doesn't hinder her very much).

She does get the opportunity to grow her Axe rank pre decision as well at limited opportunity cost(ultimately chapter 0 and 1 are quite short, and Corrin cannot build rank in ch 5... the difference isn't that big). People just generally don't bother.

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2 hours ago, Florete said:

I mentioned in my list that I didn't know who to put for Birthright, but I had forgotten about Setsuna. Yeah, it's probably Setsuna for me.

Thinking about it more after seeing how you phrased this, it makes sense that people might forget about her.  She's just there, without anything to help her stand out.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

It's weird, because bows are actually pretty good in Fates. More so in Conquest than Birthright, but Takumi is still a pretty great unit and Kinshi Knight is a class most characters can make work. Yet still Setsuna is just not very good. Like I don't even know what her issues are as a unit, she just under performs when she's around so much that I have absolutely no interest of trying to make her work at all.

She's been a disappointment every time I've attempted to use her.  Most levels she gets for me are 3 stats or fewer so she doesn't grow well despite her low base level to get experience faster.  I find her accuracy is really bad, so getting chip damage with her is unreliable.  She might as well be wearing Niles' eye patch over her eye that's not obscured by her hair.  Her personal skill is also one of the most useless (she gets 50% more healing from staffs or rods which doesn't mesh well with her being an Archer).  And as mentioned before, Takumi (and Reina) exists, so that's rough competition for her.

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

I think I'd rather have Setsuna than Hana. Setsuna is carried by Yumi mt and archer/sniper skills to the point where their outputs are similar, and neither have much of an enemy phase anyway.

I'd rather have Hana.  While Yumi weapons have high Might, they also have low Hit, and Setsuna doesn't have the Skill stat to counter it.  Hana doesn't have the accuracy issues that Setsuna has because of being a Katana user, and she still has more of an enemy phase then her, even if not by much.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's weird, because bows are actually pretty good in Fates. More so in Conquest than Birthright, but Takumi is still a pretty great unit and Kinshi Knight is a class most characters can make work. Yet still Setsuna is just not very good. Like I don't even know what her issues are as a unit, she just under performs when she's around so much that I have absolutely no interest of trying to make her work at all.

Speed is about the only good stat she has (and the only one that she has a good growth in, at that). I know that speed is often lauded as the god stat, but as she shows, it alone doesn't make a good unit. Most Yumis also have poor hit, and she doesn't have the skill stat to fix this, like Takumi does. It doesn't help her case that when I try to make her work, most level ups she gets only grant her three stats or fewer (gee, this sounds familiar... largely because Conquest has a certain someone who ALSO joins early, tends to get 3 stats or less on level ups and is an archer...). Combine that with Takumi and Reina existing, who can actually do stuff at base, and yeah...

1 hour ago, Cysx said:

I think I'd rather have Setsuna than Hana. Setsuna is carried by Yumi mt and archer/sniper skills to the point where their outputs are similar, and neither have much of an enemy phase anyway.

I'd rather use Hana. At least she isn't cripplingly overspecialized stats wise.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 hours ago, Cysx said:

I think I'd rather have Setsuna than Hana. Setsuna is carried by Yumi mt and archer/sniper skills to the point where their outputs are similar, and neither have much of an enemy phase anyway.

As long as you don't hold Hana up to the Ryoma standard since she comes in the same class, Hana isn't bad at all. She lacks in defense but she's an offensive powerhouse.

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Setsuna is not wonderful, but she's fine. Speed's the only stat you need when your class gives you power (Quick Draw and the high might of yumis) and accuracy (Certain Blow, worth picking up even if one plans to go Kinshi IMO). I actually have an overall higher opinion of her than Mozu; while Mozu is better lategame once her growths have had a chance to kick in, it's not by enough for me to care, as Setsuna has adequate str to 2HKO most things post-promotion anyway and the other stat differences don't matter much. Meanwhile, earlygame, Mozu not only has notably worse earlygame combat, but also requires a valuable Heart Seal. [This is assuming Archer is Mozu's best bulid, which seems to be the general consensus from what I recall.]

Same with Hana; an interesting unit with blistering offence but no durability. In practice she works kind of like a range 1 sniper, able to melt almost anything while avoiding counters (in her case, via Duelist's Blow and an appropriate katana to max her player phase evasion) at the cost of not being able to take many hits herself. She takes even fewer hits than Snipers, but on the other hand, the one hit she typically can take she's able to counter for nasty damage.

I just keep coming back to the fact that pretty much every Birthright unit feels like there's some sort of niche for them. Underrated part of the game's design. The top end of the character balance isn't great (the good units are obviously better than the not-so-good units), but the lower to middle ranges are interesting enough.

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

More so in Conquest than Birthright, but Takumi is still a pretty great unit

This doesn´t quite feel right.

5 hours ago, Cysx said:

She does get the opportunity to grow her Axe rank pre decision as well at limited opportunity cost(ultimately chapter 0 and 1 are quite short, and Corrin cannot build rank in ch 5... the difference isn't that big). People just generally don't bother.

Yeah, but both of these chapters suck for Rinkah. The problem being in chapter 4 you are on a clock against Ryoma s´far as I´m aware on top of some to a lot of the enemies having Seal skills. And in chapter 5 you are fighting Mercenaries and Mages, the latter will deal a whole lotta damage and you´ll have WTD all around. Not good for Rinkah. Hell I haven´t attempted the chapter 5 puzzle trying to use Rinkah instead of Kaze - my guess some kind of fighting retreat, with Azura dancing Corrin 1HKOs to keep folks safe? And Kaze with Rinka backpack is a better unit than Rinkah with a Kaze backpack.

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd rather use Hana. At least she isn't cripplingly overspecialized stats wise.

She´s pretty heavily geared towards Glass Cannon, with a dash of Res. Makes for - oh surprise - a good Sniper if you are afraid for her life.

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6 hours ago, Cysx said:

She does get the opportunity to grow her Axe rank pre decision as well at limited opportunity cost(ultimately chapter 0 and 1 are quite short, and Corrin cannot build rank in ch 5... the difference isn't that big). People just generally don't bother.

The problem is that Rinkah doesn't do too well in her pre-decision chapters. In chapter 4, you're rushing to get to the sisters before the Faceless can defeat them, especially Sakura (it's not necessary, but closing out the chapter gets harder if she gets defeated), and she faces WTD against everything in chapter 5. Chapter 6 isn't much better for her, as the three most lucrative targets EXP wise are all promoted units who she has WTD against. Which begs the question, why the hell did they see fit to stack the deck so badly against her??

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5 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Yeah, but both of these chapters suck for Rinkah. The problem being in chapter 4 you are on a clock against Ryoma s´far as I´m aware on top of some to a lot of the enemies having Seal skills. And in chapter 5 you are fighting Mercenaries and Mages, the latter will deal a whole lotta damage and you´ll have WTD all around. Not good for Rinkah. Hell I haven´t attempted the chapter 5 puzzle trying to use Rinkah instead of Kaze - my guess some kind of fighting retreat, with Azura dancing Corrin 1HKOs to keep folks safe? And Kaze with Rinka backpack is a better unit than Rinkah with a Kaze backpack.

Whether she's good or not matters "less" when she's around either way, most of the crew's stats are predictable and you have so few combat units. You said the word puzzle and that's pretty much exactly what it is; a low reward puzzle that you can easily skip.
There was so much hyperbole around the character early on that I did put myself to the task, and all it really takes is to stay ahead of Ryoma in ch 4(specific but fully doable), and yeah, not use her as a pairup in ch 5 since it rids her of almost any exp/wexp gain. You don't retreat, or pair Kaze up with her either, that'd just be worse, instead you figure out a way to make things dead with her and Kaze attack stancing as much as possible. If done successfully, this is positive even for Kaze, but especially so for her (obviously). And the less you use "Corrin", the better.

You have to be proactive in both chapters so there's no major turn loss, the method is one turn slower in ch 5 iirc. There's not much of a reason not to do it from what I've seen, but at the same time, it really is just about making a mediocre -and route locked- unit slightly less mediocre, everyone else will be fine either way.

9 hours ago, FailWood said:

I'd rather have Hana.  While Yumi weapons have high Might, they also have low Hit, and Setsuna doesn't have the Skill stat to counter it.  Hana doesn't have the accuracy issues that Setsuna has because of being a Katana user, and she still has more of an enemy phase then her, even if not by much.

That is true, at the same time Setsuna doesn't have to risk low hit counters on non-green engagements early on, and Certain blow completely fixes her accuracy problems once she gets it. The only thing she direly needs that her class/weapon type doesn't give, is also the one thing she's good at on her own. She's a weird character.

I also remember Hana falling off in lategame luna as she's really bad at dealing with several parts of the weapon triangle at once and enemies hit really hard, while Setsuna remains a consistent player phase unit, in theory anyway.

Edited by Cysx

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6 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

This doesn´t quite feel right.

Bows are one of the best ways to deal with ninja hell in Conquest, aren't they? Unless I'm misremembering the weird six pointed triangle they have going on.

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19 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

 

Or you know, maybe Mozu. Who´s been named what, 3x in this thread, but never as the worst unit, to my great surprise.

Only game I would even consider putting her in the bottom is Birthright. Her main weakness is the level deficit she starts with, but if you commit to training her she can catch up in her join chapter, and the way the exp formula works, especially on Lunatic, make that a much, much smaller experience boost for anyone else, although she does need some kinda seal. In Revelation she shows up at a point where you are desperate for units, and in Conquest she is the only source (other than Corrin Talent...) of the surprisingly good archer class line, and shines against the Ninja with it. In Birthright she doesn't really have either of those niches, but a level 1 Hayato literally comes later than she does, so its hard to rank her worse for that level deficit than you do Hayato.

Honestly I am surprised there isn't more talk about my own pick of Hayato in this Birthright discussion.

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3 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Only game I would even consider putting her in the bottom is Birthright. Her main weakness is the level deficit she starts with, but if you commit to training her she can catch up in her join chapter, and the way the exp formula works, especially on Lunatic, make that a much, much smaller experience boost for anyone else, although she does need some kinda seal. In Revelation she shows up at a point where you are desperate for units, and in Conquest she is the only source (other than Corrin Talent...) of the surprisingly good archer class line, and shines against the Ninja with it. In Birthright she doesn't really have either of those niches, but a level 1 Hayato literally comes later than she does, so its hard to rank her worse for that level deficit than you do Hayato.

Honestly I am surprised there isn't more talk about my own pick of Hayato in this Birthright discussion.

Idk what to tell you, it's a pretty good pick.

Although, nothing really stops you from delaying Mozu's paralogue to funnel much of that exp into him instead, since he joins between chapters. At base, he hits a good bit harder than her without having to take a counter(10 vs 14, thanks personal skill). He also makes for a pretty amazing Oni chieftain if you put in the effort... a lot of effort.

Edited by Cysx

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