How good would a recruitable Reinhardt actually be?

[Alastor15243]

So, talking with a friend about the frequently-voiced fear that a hypothetical FE5 remake would try to pander to FEH players by making Reinhardt recruitable... made me suddenly realize there's a good chance he wouldn't be that good at all if he were. I mean, most importantly, there'd only be one chapter left in the whole game after his joining chapter where he could even use his horse, and then he'd be footlocked.

What do you think? Suppose Reinhardt could be recruited somehow in an otherwise completely faithful FE5 remake, and the only change in his stats post-recruitment was going from 5 leadership stars to 1. How useful would he actually be with those stats and skills?

[Interdimensional Observer]

Dismounting would knock Rein down to the following:

• 48 HP, 12 Str, 20 Mag, 14 Skl, 13 Spd, 18 Lck, 11 Def, 15 Con, 6 Move, 5 Movement Stars, and a critical multiplier of 2.

A Swords & all three kinds of Anima magic too. With Adept, Vantage, Charge, and Pavise for skills.

No staffs limits his greatness. But he can use Dire Thunder, with Vantage, and 20 Mag is glorious. If he could consistently land his hits, I'd imagine his 30 Mag-targeting Atk would be good enough to solo Loptian mages in 24x without being touched and thus killed by the Jormungandr poison + Hell 1HP combo.

That sounds good, but killer offense isn't exactly difficult in FE5.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Interdimensional Observer

[AnonymousSpeed]

41 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

So, talking with a friend about the frequently-voiced fear that a hypothetical FE5 remake would try to pander to FEH players by making Reinhardt recruitable...

It'd be alright if they made him a trial map character, as much of a dead artform as trial maps might be.

[Eltosian Kadath]

As long as he comes after his chapter 22 appearance I think it would be fine. As the classic Berserk Reinhardt strat shows he can tear chapter 22 to pieces if you recruited him during the chapter, whereas chapter 23 and 24 are willing to give away combat monsters like Ced and Galzus, whom are in the same ballpark as him at least.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Eh, a star is a star I guess, but literally everyone that's been used frequently has good combat by this point in the game. Assuming that Olwen is necessary to get Reinhardt, Olwen is probably just better?

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Eh, a star is a star I guess, but literally everyone that's been used frequently has good combat by this point in the game. Assuming that Olwen is necessary to get Reinhardt, Olwen is probably just better?

No, Reinhardt would be better than Olwen. He'd have more magic and more bulk. The only thing Olwen would have over him is a bit more speed, but considering he's hitting so hard with a brave weapon, and he has Adept and Charge, that slightly lower speed wouldn't actually impair his ability to kill things. A playable Reinhardt would be a pretty great unit, maybe surpassed only by Sety in terms of combat. Though anyone with a staff (including Sety) is going to have more utility. Something no one here has mentioned is that he has 5movement stars, that's a 25% chance of performing a second action and killing someone else. Galzus and Perne are the only other combat units that have that going for them. Reinhardt would basically be a second Galzus, only with a better 1-2 range brave weapon in exchange for 1 less movement point.

[AnonymousSpeed]

If Olwen is necessary to get Reinhardt, the real question is whether he's better than Ilios.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

No, Reinhardt would be better than Olwen. He'd have more magic and more bulk. The only thing Olwen would have over him is a bit more speed, but considering he's hitting so hard with a brave weapon, and he has Adept and Charge, that slightly lower speed wouldn't actually impair his ability to kill things. A playable Reinhardt would be a pretty great unit, maybe surpassed only by Sety in terms of combat. Though anyone with a staff (including Sety) is going to have more utility. Something no one here has mentioned is that he has 5movement stars, that's a 25% chance of performing a second action and killing someone else. Galzus and Perne are the only other combat units that have that going for them. Reinhardt would basically be a second Galzus, only with a better 1-2 range brave weapon in exchange for 1 less movement point.

Isn't it fairly easy to cap Olwen's Mag with scrolls? I don't quite remember if mine did. His 15 Con is pretty good though.

I guess if you're Warp skipping a lot of maps, then yeah, Rein is just better.

[Jotari]

16 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Isn't it fairly easy to cap Olwen's Mag with scrolls? I don't quite remember if mine did. His 15 Con is pretty good though.

I guess if you're Warp skipping a lot of maps, then yeah, Rein is just better.

Yeah, but youbsfill have to train Olwen. And if external resources are factored in then you could throw boosters on Reinhardt to path up his weakness.  Not that he really has any weakness other than his low indoor movement.

[Seafarer]

His late join time would hurt a lot. No staves means he's basically just combat - good combat, admittedly, but you get Ced in literally the next chapter, which makes Reinhardt basically redundant. I can't see Reinhardt > Ced, but they're probably pretty close on a tier list unless you sorely undervalue staff utility.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Seafarer said:

His late join time would hurt a lot. No staves means he's basically just combat - good combat, admittedly, but you get Ced in literally the next chapter, which makes Reinhardt basically redundant. I can't see Reinhardt > Ced, but they're probably pretty close on a tier list unless you sorely undervalue staff utility.

I wouldn't say Ced would make Reinhardt redundant. No question Ced would be better, but you have 18 units to bring to endgame and six Deadlords that need killing, there is full motivation to field them both. As is, Ced doesn't make Galzus redundant despite Galzus being obtained (slightly) later.

[Seafarer]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:32 AM, Jotari said:

I wouldn't say Ced would make Reinhardt redundant. No question Ced would be better, but you have 18 units to bring to endgame and six Deadlords that need killing, there is full motivation to field them both. As is, Ced doesn't make Galzus redundant despite Galzus being obtained (slightly) later.

I mean, fair. I guess I just meant I'd still rate Ced higher, because of staff utility and the minimal availability difference.

[MuteMousou]

I think it would be okay if they did it right but thematically, allowing him to be recruited just seems kind of overkill since you already recruit Saias, an enemy commander, and Galzus, a really strong enemy mercenary, in the same game within 2 chapters of the Reinhardt chapter. It just seems kind of dumb if you just recruit all the enemies to your side and never deal with the thematic element of war stories of characters who are against the protagonist but not terrible people having to be killed sometimes.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, MuteMousou said:

I think it would be okay if they did it right but thematically, allowing him to be recruited just seems kind of overkill since you already recruit Saias, an enemy commander, and Galzus, a really strong enemy mercenary, in the same game within 2 chapters of the Reinhardt chapter. It just seems kind of dumb if you just recruit all the enemies to your side and never deal with the thematic element of war stories of characters who are against the protagonist but not terrible people having to be killed sometimes.

Not super relevant, but I just want to throw out there that Galzus isnt that great a person. He has no issue working with the Loptyrians at all. It's only when he comes face to face with the prospectively fighting his estranged daughter (whom he abandoned) does he swap sides. They guy is possibly the most mercenary mercenary we've had in the series, at leastnon the playable side of things.

[MuteMousou]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:21 PM, Jotari said:

Not super relevant, but I just want to throw out there that Galzus isnt that great a person. He has no issue working with the Loptyrians at all. It's only when he comes face to face with the prospectively fighting his estranged daughter (whom he abandoned) does he swap sides. They guy is possibly the most mercenary mercenary we've had in the series, at leastnon the playable side of things.

I don't necessarily believe that being a "good person" is something that can  exist in a lot of senses with what you're referring, what I think with writing these kinds of stories is that the point is to show you that people often do things such as joining the loptyrians or whatever because of something out of their control or because it seemed like it was the best choice at the time, which if you look at real world history this is pretty close to why people might have been on the |wrong side" at times, so I think if we want to get the intention of the story we kind of have to look past what we could see as "morally wrong" at face value to understand why someone did something. So if there are some at least somewhat morally objectionable people joining the player's party, then I think this perfectly aligns with what war stories should be about.

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 11/14/2021 at 12:21 AM, Jotari said:

Not super relevant, but I just want to throw out there that Galzus isnt that great a person. He has no issue working with the Loptyrians at all. It's only when he comes face to face with the prospectively fighting his estranged daughter (whom he abandoned) does he swap sides. They guy is possibly the most mercenary mercenary we've had in the series, at leastnon the playable side of things.

Wait, so a sword-user who fights for the bad guys, and only joins the heroes at the urging of a female relative? Damn, Kaga even did Makalov first.

Wouldn't Beowolf or Farina be more mercenary-y, though? Since they join based on receiving money, rather than any familial ties. Hell, Farina will cozily leave her own sisters to fly off and die if you don't meet her fees.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wait, so a sword-user who fights for the bad guys, and only joins the heroes at the urging of a female relative? Damn, Kaga even did Makalov first.

Wouldn't Beowolf or Farina be more mercenary-y, though? Since they join based on receiving money, rather than any familial ties. Hell, Farina will cozily leave her own sisters to fly off and die if you don't meet her fees.

I feel there's a moral element to those characters, only with money as the quicker. After all it's pretty damn stupid to turn on your company while they're all right beside you. Mercenaries don't offer a contract in the middle of the battlefield unless they're motivated by desperation. Though obviously Volke is the most money obsessed among the characters for hire. But that's not really what I mean when I saw Galzus is mercenary. I mean it as an adjective, as in the pragmatic and self serving aspects to it. In other words Galzus comes across as the kind of guy who would have went on the child hunts for the coin without a second thought where as Farina or Beowolf don't. Any reluctance to fight on Galzus part comes purely from how his enemy pertains to him.