Lord_Brand Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 (edited) On 9/21/2021 at 7:55 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: I'd definitely be game to read a topic like this! Anything to liven up the ghost town that is the Pokemon subforum, haha. I've already cooked up some thoughts about what 'Mons she might favor. What'd you have in mind? Presumably, she'd have the Starter weak to yours (in contrast to the Rival having the Starter strong against yours). I also picture her getting an Eevee later on, choosing the Eeveelution that's strong against your Starter (like savvy players will usually do for the Rival's starter). For example, if you chose Bulbasaur, she'll evolve her Eevee into Flareon. In a fashion similar to Blue, the rest of her team can change based on what Starter you picked as well. As the game progresses, I could see her adding new and different Pokemon to her team over time, adapting to each Gym Leader. Edited June 5, 2022 by Lord_Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 7 hours ago, Lord_Brand said: What'd you have in mind? Presumably, she'd have the Starter weak to yours (in contrast to the Rival having the Starter strong against yours). I also picture her getting an Eevee later on, choosing the Eeveelution that's strong against your Starter (like savvy players will usually do for the Rival's starter). For example, if you chose Bulbasaur, she'll evolve her Eevee into Flareon. In a fashion similar to Blue, the rest of her team can change based on what Starter you picked as well. As the game progresses, I could see her adding new and different Pokemon to her team over time, adapting to each Gym Leader. I think these are pretty solid ideas. Here's what I've been theory-crafting, though. Narratively, Green is your cousin from Celadon City. She's only a couple months older than you (Red/Leaf), but she likes to lord it over you, like a "big sister". As a big fan of Professor Oak's radio show, she came to Pallet Town to meet him, and get her first Pokemon. But on the day the game starts, she oversleeps, leaving her with the last starter available! So if you pick Charmander, then Blue gets Squirtle, and Green gets Bulbasaur. Oh, and like Blue, you'd be able to decide Green's name when the game begins, too. I like the notion of her going alongside you through each "dungeon". Hm... where Blue is always a few steps ahead of you, perhaps Green can be a few steps behind? I.e. when you enter Viridian Forest, Green could catch up with you from behind. She follows you, insisting that she's the one protecting you (it's not like she's scared of some dumb, dark forest or anything!). Then, at the end, she gives you an item to help you on your way (say, a Super Potion). This is repeated for certain dungeons (Mt. Moon, Rock Tunnel, Rocket Hideout, Pokemon Mansion, etc.), but probably not all (Diglett's Cave might be too short for this). As for her battles, I'd put them between the dungeon encounters. Like, as you're about to battle Brock, she shows up at the door, for the right to challenge him first. She has her starter, but... what's this? It seems she's added a Metapod, which she must have caught in viridian Forest, to her team! That'd be my general approach - adding new Mons based on where you traveled together (Clefairy from Mt. Moon, Geodude from Rock Tunnel, Dratini from Rocket Game Corner, Ditto from Pokemon Mansion). So her team keeps growing, and possibly swapping Mons out. This culminates in a battle in Cerulean Cave, where she fights the new Champion for a chance to capture Mewtwo itself. In the end, she's overcome her frustration in not surpassing you, and is just glad to see her "little cousin" prosper. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) On 9/22/2021 at 10:23 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: I think these are pretty solid ideas. Here's what I've been theory-crafting, though. Narratively, Green is your cousin from Celadon City. She's only a couple months older than you (Red/Leaf), but she likes to lord it over you, like a "big sister". As a big fan of Professor Oak's radio show, she came to Pallet Town to meet him, and get her first Pokemon. But on the day the game starts, she oversleeps, leaving her with the last starter available! So if you pick Charmander, then Blue gets Squirtle, and Green gets Bulbasaur. Oh, and like Blue, you'd be able to decide Green's name when the game begins, too. I like the notion of her going alongside you through each "dungeon". Hm... where Blue is always a few steps ahead of you, perhaps Green can be a few steps behind? I.e. when you enter Viridian Forest, Green could catch up with you from behind. She follows you, insisting that she's the one protecting you (it's not like she's scared of some dumb, dark forest or anything!). Then, at the end, she gives you an item to help you on your way (say, a Super Potion). This is repeated for certain dungeons (Mt. Moon, Rock Tunnel, Rocket Hideout, Pokemon Mansion, etc.), but probably not all (Diglett's Cave might be too short for this). As for her battles, I'd put them between the dungeon encounters. Like, as you're about to battle Brock, she shows up at the door, for the right to challenge him first. She has her starter, but... what's this? It seems she's added a Metapod, which she must have caught in viridian Forest, to her team! That'd be my general approach - adding new Mons based on where you traveled together (Clefairy from Mt. Moon, Geodude from Rock Tunnel, Dratini from Rocket Game Corner, Ditto from Pokemon Mansion). So her team keeps growing, and possibly swapping Mons out. This culminates in a battle in Cerulean Cave, where she fights the new Champion for a chance to capture Mewtwo itself. In the end, she's overcome her frustration in not surpassing you, and is just glad to see her "little cousin" prosper. What do you think? Yeah, it'd make sense to be able to decide her name upon meeting her. In my take on her character, she can possibly develop a crush on the protagonist, so I personally wouldn't make her your "cousin" per se. ^ ^; Maybe the Rival's cousin or something? My interpretation of her is that of a girl who starts out being kind of timid and looks to you as a bodyguard, but becomes braver over time and continues traveling with you simply because she enjoys your company. And yeah, I was thinking the same, that she'd give you items or money occasionally as thanks for helping her out. Though starting around maybe Celadon, it could be possible to give her gifts as well. I would adopt a similar approach for her Pokemon, with the caveat that she only uses 2-3 Pokemon at first and adds one or two later on, until she has a full team of six for your late game battles with her. Edited September 26, 2021 by Lord_Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 On 9/23/2021 at 4:59 PM, Lord_Brand said: In my take on her character, she can possibly develop a crush on the protagonist, so I personally wouldn't make her your "cousin" per se. The fact that I no longer see these two as mutually exclusive means that it's probably time for me to put down the Fire Emblem. On 9/23/2021 at 4:59 PM, Lord_Brand said: Though starting around maybe Celadon, it could be possible to give her gifts as well. If you want her to have an Eevee, perhaps her Eeveelution of choice could depend upon the evolution stone the player gives to her? In return, she could give the player a Moon Stone, since that's the only stone in limited supply. Another potential Mon for her could be the Fosdil Mon you turned down. I don't believe you ever face any of the Fossils in enemy hands otherwise. On 9/23/2021 at 4:59 PM, Lord_Brand said: Maybe the Rival's cousin or something? My interpretation of her is that of a girl who starts out being kind of timid and looks to you as a bodyguard, but becomes braver over time and continues traveling with you simply because she enjoys your company. I wouldn't make her Blue's cousin, since the slot of "similar-age female relative of Blue" is already occupied by Daisy. She could just belong to a different family entirely. Anyway, it's funny how the personalities we imagine for her are kind of "mirror images" of each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted September 27, 2021 Author Share Posted September 27, 2021 14 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: If you want her to have an Eevee, perhaps her Eeveelution of choice could depend upon the evolution stone the player gives to her? In return, she could give the player a Moon Stone, since that's the only stone in limited supply. Another potential Mon for her could be the Fosdil Mon you turned down. I don't believe you ever face any of the Fossils in enemy hands otherwise. I wouldn't make her Blue's cousin, since the slot of "similar-age female relative of Blue" is already occupied by Daisy. She could just belong to a different family entirely. Anyway, it's funny how the personalities we imagine for her are kind of "mirror images" of each other. I was thinking she evolves her Eevee based on her starter's type. If her starter is Grass, she chooses Vaporeon. If her starter is Fire, she chooses Jolteon. And if her starter is Water, she chooses Flareon. Furthermore, she catches Pikachu, Vulpix, and Staryu at different points, and depending on which Eeveelution she gets, she evolves at least one of them to be part of her endgame team. Raichu is included if she chose Flareon or Vaporeon, Ninetales is part of her team if she chose Vaporeon, and Starmie is part of her team if she chose Jolteon. This allows her to cover Fire, Water, and Electric regardless of team composition. I guess she needs to have a dedicated Grass-type as well; Vileplume or Victreebel would be in-keeping with the Stone Evolution theme of her team while avoiding overlaps with Blue's team. A Moon Stone evolution would be in order as well, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said: Furthermore, she catches Pikachu, Vulpix, and Staryu at different points, and depending on which Eeveelution she gets, she evolves at least one of them to be part of her endgame team. Raichu is included if she chose Flareon or Vaporeon, Ninetales is part of her team if she chose Vaporeon, and Starmie is part of her team if she chose Jolteon. This allows her to cover Fire, Water, and Electric regardless of team composition. I guess she needs to have a dedicated Grass-type as well; Vileplume or Victreebel would be in-keeping with the Stone Evolution theme of her team while avoiding overlaps with Blue's team. A Moon Stone evolution would be in order as well, then? Ooh, I never even thought of an "evolution stone" motif. For the Moon Stone slot, I'd say either Wigglytuff or Clefable sould be a great team fit. So in terms of the "variable Mons", and assuming Vileplume as a Grass-type, the possibilities would be: Blastoise, Raichu, Vileplume, Flareon; Venusaur, Raichu, Ninetales, Vaporeon; Charizard, Vileplume, Starmie, Jolteon; Ah, but even with a Moon Stone evolution, there would still one slot left. I'm thinking a Ground-type would fit well - maybe Golem, or Marowak? No notable trainers really use either of these. Alternatively, she could've picked up a Dratini in the Safari Zone, so that Lance isn't the only Dragon trainer in the world (and it resists the four "elemental" types). Finally, I still think her having a Ditto could be interesting (do you ever face one outside the Pokemon Mansion?). Thoughts on what could fit into the final slot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) Nidoqueen would fit the Ground-type parameter, and be a decently-strong Pokemon in its own right - not quite the powerhouse that Nidoking is, but good enough to hold its own. Clefable is also a good consideration for the Moon Stone slot. Dragonite is an interesting idea, but my concern is that Green would have caught one awfully late in the game and have had to raise it offscreen (but to be fair, the same is true of Starmie, however that one at least can evolve earlier using Water Stone). I feel like a team that she could have built up and raised over the course of the game would be more meaningful. A thought occurs to me - between her Starter, her Eeveelution, and her substitutes, Green would have Water, Electric, Grass, Poison, and Fire all covered, and if she uses Starmie then she also has Psychic. That covers all but two of the Gym Leader types, leaving room for two more Pokemon to cover Rock and Ground (and maybe Psychic). Or maybe the last two slots also vary based on what else she has? Edited October 31, 2021 by Lord_Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 13 hours ago, Lord_Brand said: Nidoqueen would fit the Ground-type parameter, and be a decently-strong Pokemon in its own right - not quite the powerhouse that Nidoking is, but good enough to hold its own. Clefable is also a good consideration for the Moon Stone slot. To its credit, Nidoqueen is a very cool Pokemon. That said, I'd rather not feature it on Green's team, for a couple reasons. As a Poison-type, it would overlap with Venasaur or Vileplume. Moreover, Nidoqueen already gets a fairly prominent showcasing on Giovanni's Silph Co and Viridian Gym teams. Compare Clefable and Wigglytuff - as Normal types, there's no overlap, and neither one appears on the team of any prominent foes. Either one could harass targets with Gen 1 sleep, while also bringing a healthy TM movepool to the table. 13 hours ago, Lord_Brand said: A thought occurs to me - between her Starter, her Eeveelution, and her substitutes, Green would have Water, Electric, Grass, Poison, and Fire all covered, and if she uses Starmie then she also has Psychic. That covers all but two of the Gym Leader types, leaving room for two more Pokemon to cover Rock and Ground (and maybe Psychic). Or maybe the last two slots also vary based on what else she has? How about Golem? Conceivably, she could catch a Geodude in Rock Tunnel, and train it up from there. And while other Rock/Ground-types have prominent users (Blue and Giovanni both use Rhydon, while Brock and Bruno use Onix), no notable trainers use Graveler or Golem. This way, her team would have Rock, Water, Electric, Grass, Poison, Fire, and Ground represented in all cases, with Psychic also included should the player start with Blastoise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted November 6, 2021 Author Share Posted November 6, 2021 Golem is a strong contender, to be sure. If we don't want Green repeating any of Blue's Team, then it's pretty much the best candidate she's got. Though since Blue doesn't bother to include all Gym Leader Types - and indeed the only way Green can do so at this point is if she has Starmie - I'm thinking she could simply have both Wigglytuff and Clefable on her team. Then all five of her non-Starter Pokemon are Stone Evolutions, one each for Fire, Water, Thunder, and Leaf, and two for Moon. However, looking at the two side-by-side, Clefable is clearly the superior Pokemon, with a better average stat build, a higher stat total, and a TM movepool that ever-so-slightly edges Wigglytuff out. So Wigglytuff might not be a worthwhile addition to her team. Perhaps Green could have both Clefable and Nidoqueen? My reasoning being that Nidoqueen would add some physical might to a team that is otherwise very special-focused. Failing that, Tauros is an absolute house in Gen I. Speaking of moves, that's another aspect to consider: what would her final team's movesets end up being? I think it'd be cool if the Grass, Fire, Water, and Electric members all had their type's strongest Gen I attack - Solar Beam, Fire Blast, Hydro Pump, and Thunder. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt are also must-haves. Really, I think it'd be appropriate if Green used all the Gym Leader TMs save for Fissure (I'll explain why in a minute). Bubble Beam goes to Blastoise/Vaporeon/Starmie, Thunderbolt to Jolteon/Raichu, Mega Drain and Toxic to Venusaur/Vileplume, Psywave to Clefable, and Fire Blast to Charizard/Flareon/Ninetales. Bide can go to her sixth Pokemon, be that Golem, Nidoqueen, Tauros, or otherwise. I wrote out a list of moves that I think Green's final team could have, taking into account her team's levels will probably be in the 60s. Spoiler Venusaur Sleep Powder Solar Beam Mega Drain Toxic Charizard Slash Flamethrower Fire Blast Earthquake Blastoise Hydro Pump Bubble Beam Earthquake Vaporeon Hydro Pump Bubble Beam Ice Beam Blizzard Jolteon Thunderbolt Double Kick Pin Missile Thunder Flareon Fire Spin Flamethrower Body Slam Fire Blast Vileplume Stun Spore Petal Dance Mega Drain Toxic Ninetales Confuse Ray Flamethrower Fire Blast Dig Starmie Recover Hydro Pump Bubble Beam Blizzard Raichu Swift Thunder Thunderbolt Submission Clefable Minimize Metronome Psywave Reflect Nidoqueen Bide Body Slam Earthquake Rockslide Though I'm jumping ahead a little here, for Green's endgame story, I'm thinking she misses out on getting the Earth Badge from Giovanni since he retires after you defeat him, keeping her from battling the Elite Four and thus, the Champion. However, she still gets to come with you thanks to Oak (who presumably is a member of the League himself since he shows up after defeating Blue) giving her a Guest Pass, allowing her to accompany you through Victory Road and spectate your matches against the Elite Four and the Champion. After you become Champion, Green leaves to investigate the three legendary Birds (assuming you haven't already caught or fainted them) and the Cerulean Cave where you find Mewtwo. After fighting Mewtwo, Green returns home, which happens to be in Viridian City. I would consider the possibility that she becomes the Viridian City Gym Leader by the time of Gen II, though it would be an even cooler twist if she ended up becoming the Champion, since Blue and Red already had their time to shine (they can remove Koga or Will from the E4 to make room for Lance). That said, I could also see her deciding to travel the world, setting up appearances in future generations. Since Red and Blue appeared as adults in Gen V and VII, it stands to reason Green would as well. Depending on the writers' prerogative, she and Red could end up having a kid who serves either as a protagonist or as a rival. Perhaps even a pair of kids, a son and a daughter, who thus would be the male and female protagonist options for a future game. I'd be keen on seeing a mod or fan remake of the Gen 1 games that adds Green and some story scenes, as well as fixes some bugs and other design flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanty Pete's 1st Mate Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 On 11/6/2021 at 5:54 AM, Lord_Brand said: Golem is a strong contender, to be sure. If we don't want Green repeating any of Blue's Team, then it's pretty much the best candidate she's got. Though since Blue doesn't bother to include all Gym Leader Types - and indeed the only way Green can do so at this point is if she has Starmie - I'm thinking she could simply have both Wigglytuff and Clefable on her team. Then all five of her non-Starter Pokemon are Stone Evolutions, one each for Fire, Water, Thunder, and Leaf, and two for Moon. However, looking at the two side-by-side, Clefable is clearly the superior Pokemon, with a better average stat build, a higher stat total, and a TM movepool that ever-so-slightly edges Wigglytuff out. So Wigglytuff might not be a worthwhile addition to her team. Perhaps Green could have both Clefable and Nidoqueen? My reasoning being that Nidoqueen would add some physical might to a team that is otherwise very special-focused. Failing that, Tauros is an absolute house in Gen I. Yeah, Clefable is definitely the better of those two pink puffs. The only reason to favor Wigglytuff would be for the flavor it might impart. Not all of an elite trainer's team members need to be especially strong (see: Red's Pikachu). My objection to either Nidoqueen or Tauros boils down to Type overlaps. Green will already have a Poison-type (in Venusaur/Vileplume) and a Normal-type (in Clefable, assuming that's the one we go with). Golem, being Rock/Ground, doesn't overlap with any established Mons. Moreover, it'd be the only Mon on her team to resist Normal, Poison, and Rock-type attacks, regardless of which starter she has. And, being a Trade evolution, it would allow her team to run the gamut of Gen I evolutionary methods (a starter who levels up, four stone-evolvers, and a trade evolution). On 11/6/2021 at 5:54 AM, Lord_Brand said: I wrote out a list of moves that I think Green's final team could have, taking into account her team's levels will probably be in the 60s. I like these movesets! One addition I would make is giving Blastoise either Ice Beam or Blizzard, to round out its moveset. Oh, and as for Golem, how about {Bide, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Explosion}? On 11/6/2021 at 5:54 AM, Lord_Brand said: Though I'm jumping ahead a little here, for Green's endgame story, I'm thinking she misses out on getting the Earth Badge from Giovanni since he retires after you defeat him, keeping her from battling the Elite Four and thus, the Champion. However, she still gets to come with you thanks to Oak (who presumably is a member of the League himself since he shows up after defeating Blue) giving her a Guest Pass, allowing her to accompany you through Victory Road and spectate your matches against the Elite Four and the Champion. After you become Champion, Green leaves to investigate the three legendary Birds (assuming you haven't already caught or fainted them) and the Cerulean Cave where you find Mewtwo. After fighting Mewtwo, Green returns home, which happens to be in Viridian City. I would consider the possibility that she becomes the Viridian City Gym Leader by the time of Gen II, though it would be an even cooler twist if she ended up becoming the Champion, since Blue and Red already had their time to shine (they can remove Koga or Will from the E4 to make room for Lance). That said, I could also see her deciding to travel the world, setting up appearances in future generations. Since Red and Blue appeared as adults in Gen V and VII, it stands to reason Green would as well. Depending on the writers' prerogative, she and Red could end up having a kid who serves either as a protagonist or as a rival. Perhaps even a pair of kids, a son and a daughter, who thus would be the male and female protagonist options for a future game. It sounds like you have a well-crafted idea here. Here's a potential spin (and it would work better in FRLG than in RBY) - Green is a no-show at Victory Road and beyond. She's bitter at you for defeating Giovanni, leaving her with no way to gain her eighth badge. So instead, she seeks to prove herself by capturing the legendary birds (which, in this version, don't appear to the player just yet). The next time you meet her is in Cerulean Cave, where she battles you with all three birds (let's say level 60), for the chance to fight Mewtwo. Upon being defeated, she realizes she was wrong to give in to bitterness and leave her old team behind in pursuit of glory. She then releases the birds, allowing you to capture Mewtwo (and the birds whenever). The final battle with Green will be in her hometown (in my vision it's Saffron, but it doesn't really matter), where she faces you with the final iteration of the team we've been theorycrafting this whole time. Oh yeah, this model would work better in Gen III because of Moltres. In the Gen I games, Moltres is stuck in Victory Road like an afterthought, and would therefore be inaccessible to Green. But in Gen III, it has its own roosting spot in Mt. Ember on the Sevii Isles. Gen IV re-relocates Moltres to Mt. Silver, which also doesn't exist in the Gen I games. As for her role in GSC, I'd rather she not displace anyone already established. Perhaps her role could again emphasize the legendary birds - only this time, she's wondering where they've flown off to. By going to the Power Plant, Seafoam Islands, and Victory Road (post-E4), you can help her research and have a battle. In the process, she realizes that Lugia is the key (he's established to be the "trio master" of the legendary birds, after all), and gives you the Silver Wing (this works on G/C/HG, but would have to be rewritten for S/SS). Go to the Whirl Islands, and face Lugia - whether you capture or defeat him, the Birds will show up, and then fly away to become roaming legendaries around Kanto (or go to their static spots in HGSS). Capture all three birds, and show them to Green, and she'll battle you one last time. As for pairing her with Red, I'm not one for canonizing ships, especially those featuring player characters. Maybe people like Red x Blue, or Green x Brock, I dunno. Then again, the idea of future protagonists being descended from past ones is pretty cool, if we ever get a game set deep enough into the future. I was going to say "Red & Blue still look teenagers in Sun & Moon", but I checked the wiki and apparently they're at least in their twenties? Go figure. 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Lord_Brand Posted November 9, 2021 Author Share Posted November 9, 2021 (edited) This topic is for discussing "the girl in a black dress" that inspired the creation of Leaf (in Pokemon Fire Red & Leaf Green) and Green/Blue (in Pokemon Let's Go! Pikachu and Eevee) and what the games could have been like had she been included as a character from the get-go. Background Spoiler The girl was first drawn by Ken Sugimori for the official strategy guide for Red and Green. Sugimori had wanted to portray a trio of trainers facing off against each other, and thus designed her for the cover. Though she was not originally planned as a player character, she was taken into account when designing Leaf for the Generation II remakes of Red and Green, Fire Red and Leaf Green. She was later adapted for the Pokemon Craft DX magazine drawn by Emiko Yoshino, and for the Pokemon Adventures manga as a girl named Blue in Japan and Green most elsewhere. The naming discrepency is due to the fact that, in Japan, Green is the name of Red's rival, the grandson of Professor Oak, who is known as Blue most elsewhere due to the fact the first versions of Pokemon to release outside of Japan were Red and Blue, not Green. Thus, it made sense at the time to rename the rival Blue overseas to keep in line with the naming convention. However, when the Gen III remakes rolled around, they chose to name them after the original Red and Green instead of Red and Blue, thus Fire Red and Leaf Green. But for some reason, they kept the rival's name Blue even though now it would make more sense to name him Green. However, they also introduced a female protagonist to the Gen I titles for the first time, Leaf, obviously named after Leaf Green. It stands to reason then that Blue's name was kept overseas because now, as the rival, he need not represent either version of the game, leaving that responsibility to the two protagonists instead. Thus, the rival's overseas name was cemented as Blue while in Japan it remained Green as it had always been. (Confused yet?) Then, in Pokemon Let's Go! Pikachu and Eevee, they introduced another girl based on the one in a black dress, who herself is named Blue in Japan and Green overseas, just like her Adventures counterpart from way back when. Given that these games aren't even themed after the original colors but rather are a remake of Yellow with a second version added for Eevee, it's a little frustrating that the discrepancy hasn't been corrected yet, as in my opinion Blue would work better as the girl's name while Green would work fine as the rival's name, and then it would be uniform across all localizations. But alas, it seems the Pokemon developers have yet to agree. Shanty Pete's 1st Mate and I were discussing at length what her role in the games could have been like, along with what her Pokemon teams would be like and such, in this topic about Misty's absence from the anime. It all started when I mentioned the possibility that Misty's role as the original lead girl of the series could have gone to Green had she been an established part of the games from the get-go, which lead to us derailing the topic with our enthusiastic back-and-forth about what could have been, so I've created this topic in the hopes of asking a mod to move all of our posts relating to the subject from that topic to this one. So yeah, this topic is all about discussing what we would have liked to see come of the girl in a black dress (henceforth referred to as "Green") being a part of Gen 1 and beyond. Storyline role, interactions with Red and other characters, her Pokemon team, etc. Note that discussion about creating actual mods to realize these ideas should be brought to the Fan Projects board. I'll add my own ideas to this post over time in the following spoilered section. Discuss away! Storyline Spoiler Green appears as a recurring ally and friend of Red, as well as a friendly rival. Her first appearance is in Viridian Forest, where Red encounters her running from a Beedrill. Her own Pokemon are too weakened to fight, so she asks Red to fight the Beedrill for her. If Red wins, Green thanks him and gives him a reward. If Red loses, she and the player run back to Viridian City together to heal up at the Pokecenter, and Green gives Red a reduced reward as thanks for trying to protect her, and as an apology for his Pokemon getting hurt for her sake. Either way, she proposes they travel through the forest together for safety, marking the start of their companionship and friendship. Green later catches up with the player at Mt. Moon, again suggesting that they travel together for safety. She recognizes Team Rocket in the lowest floor of the cave and is fearful of them at first, but is less than impressed upon seeing Red defeat them handily, making her think they aren't as big a threat as they're made out to be. Aboard the S.S. Anne, Green meets Blue, who upon seeing her with Red teases them about being "lovey-dovies". Green gets embarrassed and challenges Blue to a Pokemon battle, but Blue's not interested in fighting her, just Red. Green watches the battle, hoping to see Red kick Blue's butt. After the battle, Green congratulates Red if he wins, or consoles him if he loses, and heals up his Pokemon either way. Green notes what a jerk Blue is and expresses astonishment that Red used to be friends with him, let alone that he's the grandson of Professor Oak. In Lavender Town's Pokemon Tower, Green means to visit the grave of a dearly departed Pokemon, but is chased by ghosts. Again, she turns to Red for protection, though this time he is unable to do anything himself due to lacking the Silph Scope. Agatha appears and scares the ghosts off, warning Red and Green that they'll need a special item to see the ghosts and battle them. She mentions that Silph Co. was working on such a project, though last she heard it was seen in Celadon City. In Celadon City, Green investigates the Game Corner before the player gets there, and discovers the entrance to Team Rocket's hideout. She asks one of her Pokemon to stay behind with a note for Red telling him to check the poster at the back, then snoops around in the hideout itself until a Team Rocket grunt gets the drop on her, leading to her being captured and relieved of her items, money, and remaining Pokemon. Red finds her held captive in one of the rooms of the hideout and frees her, reuniting her with the Pokemon she left behind in the process. Her belongings and most of her Pokemon are still missing, so she asks Red to help her get them back. When Red defeats Giovanni, Green's belongings and Pokemon are returned to her, and she thanks Red. A squad of police offers storm the building, arresting the Grunts and looking for their leader. To help ease her nerves, Green goes sightseeing around Celadon City, inviting Red to come along with her. By this point, their relationship has budded into friendship, and Green is implied to be crushing on Red. She acquires an Eevee and wastes no time in evolving it, choosing whichever evolution best compliments her starter. In Saffron City, Green is able to induce sleep in the Grunt guarding the entrance to the Silph Co. Office Building using one of her Pokemon and again leaves one of her Pokemon behind with a message for Red before investigating by herself. This time she proves capable of handling the Grunts, but Giovanni uses Mewtwo to immobilize her and her Pokemon, allowing Team Rocket to capture her again. Again Red rescues her, and this time she warns him of the terrible Pokemon Giovanni commands. Red confronts Giovanni, who uses Mewtwo to immobilize Red and his Pokemon just as he did Green. Sabrina shows up and teleports Mewtwo along with herself to an unknown location, leaving Red to fight Giovanni as normal. Again, Giovanni is defeated, and again Green's Pokemon and belongings are returned to her. Green accompanies Red through the Seafoam Islands, where she stops to talk to Red about their adventure thus far, and potentially has a romantic moment with him. She notes how chilly it is in the island cave, and comments on recent reports of a rare Pokemon in the area, which she's thinking about investigating once she's had her shot at the League. On Cinnabar Island, Green explores the Pokemon Mansion with Red. Nothing major happens, but Green notes how creepy the place feels. After Red defeats Blaine, Green prepares for her match with him, and tells Red to keep going. In Pallet Town, Red's mother notices him passing through and asks him to return home for the night to have some dinner. Red's mother notes that he seems tired, and insists that he get a good night's sleep before heading off for Viridian City. The next day, Red wakes up and discovers Green having breakfast downstairs. She tells Red that she wondered if he might have stopped by his home since it was on the way to Viridian City, so she paid a visit just in case. Since it was nighttime, Red's mother let her stay the night and made her some breakfast the next morning. Since Red slept in, Green had a chance to tell his mother about their adventures together. Red's mother expresses dismay at Red dealing with gangsters and ghosts, but is glad to see he's safe, and is proud that he's become such a hero. She also thanks Green for being a good friend to Red, and wishes the two of them the best of luck. After Red defeats Giovanni, causing the latter to retire, Green misses her chance to get her own Earth Badge, meaning she won't be able to challenge the Elite Four. Thankfully, Professor Oak comes to her aid with a Guest Pass, allowing her to accompany Red through Victory Road and watch him battle the Elite Four. She might miss this chance to become Champion, but she'll at least get to be there for her friend when he becomes Champion. After Red becomes Champion, Green sets out to investigate three rare Pokemon that have been sighted in Kanto recently, which turn out to be Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, though she'll skip any that the player has already caught or fainted. Upon all three birds being caught or fainted, Green will head to Cerulean Cave, where people have reported strange goings on. Upon entering the cave, Sabrina appears and warns Red and Green to turn back for their own safety, but she receives a telepathic message asking her to allow them to proceed. At the bottom of the cave, Red and Green discover Mewtwo, the terrifying Pokemon they saw at the Silph Co. Office Building. Sabrina explains that she brought Mewtwo here to hide from Team Rocket. She wants Mewtwo to be able to live a peaceful life, but it seems Mewtwo has taken an interest in Red, and wishes to test him in battle. Red accepts, and either defeats Mewtwo or catches it. If Red defeats Mewtwo, Mewtwo acknowledges his strength and chooses to sleep within the cave. If Red catches it, Sabrina sees that Mewtwo has chosen to join Red, and hopes that Red will teach it compassion and help it find new purpose with his friendship. She asks Red to take good care of Mewtwo and teleports away. After these events, Green returns to Viridian City to rest. She ponders her next course of action, wondering when Viridian City will get a new Gym Leader. She considers traveling the world, and asks Red if he'd like to come with her when the time comes. She then says he doesn't have to decide right away, as he just became Champion after all, and he should enjoy his time in the spotlight. She then thanks Red for letting her be a part of his journey, and hopes that they'll have many adventures together in the future. Gameplay Spoiler Gameplay Due to the lack of a Double Battle system in the original games, Green's role in the Gen 1 titles is more passive and supportive, with her offering to use an item on Red's Pokemon once in a while and giving him money or items as rewards or gifts at specific points. In the Gen III remakes and beyond, she can play a more active role, joining Red (or the female player character) in Double Battles including after he rescues her in the Team Rocket Hideout and Silph Co. Office Building, though she'll only have one Pokemon during those segments, most likely her Starter. During Gen III's postgame, which features more content than Gen I, Green can be brought along to explore the new areas, and the player can even choose which of her Pokemon she brings. She can also be challenged to a friendly battle once a day. Pokemon Just as Blue chooses the Starter strong against Red's, Green is soon revealed to have the Starter that's weak to Red's. For example, if Red chose Charmander, Green starts with Bulbasaur. During her excursion through Viridian Forest, Green acquires a Caterpie and a Pikachu, which she later evolves into a Butterfree and a Raichu (the Raichu remains a staple of her party for some time if not the entire game, while Butterfree is eventually replaced with stronger Pokemon). She acquires a Clefairy during her trip through Mt. Moon, and eventually evolves it into Clefable. Green acquires an Eevee in Celadon City and evolves it according to what compliments her starter best (Bulbasaur = Vaporeon, Charmander = Jolteon, Squirtle = Flareon). She potentially catches a Bellsprout, Vulpix, and/or Staryu, which she evolves into Vileplume, Ninetales, and Starmie, respectively. She could also catch a Nidoran♀ at some point and evolve it all the way into a Nidoqueen, giving her at least one Pokemon that favors Attack and Defense over Special. Green's final team is one of the following: Venusaur, Vaporeon, Ninetales, Raichu, Clefable, Nidoqueen Charizard, Jolteon, Vileplume, Starmie, Clefable, Nidoqueen Blastoise, Flareon, Vileplume, Raichu, Clefable, Nidoqueen Her teams are designed such so as not to replicate any of Blue's Pokemon choices. With the exception of her starter, all of her final team Pokemon are stone evolutions. Her Pokemon also make use of the Gym Leader TMs save for Fissure, as well as other powerful TMs available in the Celadon Department Store such as Ice Beam, Mega Kick, Reflect, Rock Slide, and Submission. Below are my proposed movesets for each of the twelve possible Pokemon Green can use on her final team: Venusaur Razor Leaf Toxic Mega Drain Solar Beam Charizard Slash Submission Flamethrower Fire Blast Blastoise Skull Bash Bubble Beam Hydro Pump Ice Beam Vaporeon Take Down Ice Beam Bubble Beam Hydro Pump Jolteon Take Down Double Kick Thunderbolt Thunder Flareon Take Down Fire Spin Fire Blast Flamethrower Vileplume Mega Drain Toxic Petal Dance Solar Beam Ninetales Flamethrower Fire Blast Fire Spin Confuse Ray Starmie Bubble Beam Hydro Pump Light Screen Ice Beam Raichu Thunderbolt Thunder Submission Reflect Clefable Minimize Reflect Ice Beam Psywave Nidoqueen Bide Mega Kick Rock Slide Submission Edited November 9, 2021 by Lord_Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Brand Posted November 12, 2021 Author Share Posted November 12, 2021 (edited) On 11/7/2021 at 5:01 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: Yeah, Clefable is definitely the better of those two pink puffs. The only reason to favor Wigglytuff would be for the flavor it might impart. Not all of an elite trainer's team members need to be especially strong (see: Red's Pikachu). My objection to either Nidoqueen or Tauros boils down to Type overlaps. Green will already have a Poison-type (in Venusaur/Vileplume) and a Normal-type (in Clefable, assuming that's the one we go with). Golem, being Rock/Ground, doesn't overlap with any established Mons. Moreover, it'd be the only Mon on her team to resist Normal, Poison, and Rock-type attacks, regardless of which starter she has. And, being a Trade evolution, it would allow her team to run the gamut of Gen I evolutionary methods (a starter who levels up, four stone-evolvers, and a trade evolution). Wigglytuff also could make a good status Pokemon, but it's a bit early in the series to really optimize that kind of strategy yet. Being that Green would still ultimately be a CPU opponent for a 1-player game, all that would accomplish is to make Wigglytuff more annoying. I understand. I just thought it'd be cool to see a tough yet feminine Pokemon on Green's team (not that Tauros is all that feminine either). Golem is a decent candidate, that I will acknowledge (pity about it's quad-weakness to Grass and Water, though). I was also pondering Gengar, but I wanted at least one member of her team to have an attack/defense-oriented build rather than a special build (ironic seeing as Ghost was for some reason considered physical pre-Gen IV, probably because the only attack they originally had that could do variable damage was physical, and it didn't even make sense as a Ghost-type move). The one issue I have about Clefable and Starmie being on the same team is that they can learn many of the same attacks and basically want the same attacks: Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Bubble Beam, etc. Makes them feel a little redundant. I feel like it would be wise to compromise by giving some to Clefable and some to Starmie. Granted, you could get more than one Ice Beam TM in Gen I if I recall correctly, so Green could be justified in having Ice Beam on basically every one of her Pokemon that can learn it, but since Thunderbolt is one-of-a-kind in Gen I and neither Raichu nor Jolteon learn it naturally, I'd probably have Green teach it to them. All this talk about Green getting an Eevee kinda makes me wish Blue got one too. I mean, he does in Yellow, but there it's to serve as his counterpart to Pikachu. In Gen III remakes, I could see Green appearing as a Battle Frontier opponent who likes to shake things up every battle with a variety of Pokemon including Snorlax, Lapras, Chansey/Blissey, Gardevoir, etc. On 11/7/2021 at 5:01 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: I like these movesets! One addition I would make is giving Blastoise either Ice Beam or Blizzard, to round out its moveset. Oh, and as for Golem, how about {Bide, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Explosion}? I think I meant to give Blastoise Ice Beam, it's not supposed to have just three moves. Whoops! Guess that's what happens when I stay up into the wee hours of the morning. ^ ^; If her team gets a Golem, then it's definitely getting Bide. Only because I thought it'd be neat for her to use the Gym leader TMs since she'd presumably get them just as you do. Your suggested moveset would be serviceable, though Golem being able to toss out Explosion at a whim would be annoying. As a rule, I'd probably avoid TMs that you only find as one-of-a-kind items laying around as there's no indicator that Green would be able to get them herself (though I guess we could always assume she gets them off-screen). One other prospect I'd considered is Green's team using HMs, particularly Surf and Fly, though I'm not sure how she'd have gotten ahold of the HMs necessary to teach them to her Pokemon (barring, again, off-screen). Beyond her endgame team, we'd also need to look at how many battles there would be against her and how her team would change from battle to battle. I picture her battling you around once per Gym town, sometime between your battles with Blue. Like, you fight Blue in Pallet Town, then you battle Green in Pewter City, then you encounter Blue just before Nugget Bridge in Cerulean City, then Green battles you sometime between that and your next match with Blue aboard the S.S. Anne, and so forth. Although, the second battle you can fight against Blue is technically on Route 22 west of Viridian City, so I guess maybe you can first meet and battle Green in Viridian City proper, before the incident with the Beedrill in Viridian Forest? (On that note, I'd like to find room for more "boss Pokemon" like that, where you fight a Pokemon that's higher level than what you'd normally find in a given area and possibly evolves from one of the Pokemon found in that area.) Since there are eight battles against Blue in Gen I, it stands to reason the same would go for Green. Between the two of them, your last battle against Green could be sometime after defeating Blue and becoming Champion. In remakes, I could see Green allowing you to rematch her once a day, and/or appearing at Battle Frontier as a possible opponent and/or partner. A contrast I like between Blue and Green is where Blue relies on pure power to win, Green is more tactical, using moves that compensate for her Pokemon's type disadvantages as well as status effect moves to weaken stronger Pokemon. This shows even in her choice of Eeveelution, which so happens to counter your Starter. On 11/7/2021 at 5:01 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: It sounds like you have a well-crafted idea here. Here's a potential spin (and it would work better in FRLG than in RBY) - Green is a no-show at Victory Road and beyond. She's bitter at you for defeating Giovanni, leaving her with no way to gain her eighth badge. So instead, she seeks to prove herself by capturing the legendary birds (which, in this version, don't appear to the player just yet). The next time you meet her is in Cerulean Cave, where she battles you with all three birds (let's say level 60), for the chance to fight Mewtwo. Upon being defeated, she realizes she was wrong to give in to bitterness and leave her old team behind in pursuit of glory. She then releases the birds, allowing you to capture Mewtwo (and the birds whenever). The final battle with Green will be in her hometown (in my vision it's Saffron, but it doesn't really matter), where she faces you with the final iteration of the team we've been theorycrafting this whole time. Oh yeah, this model would work better in Gen III because of Moltres. In the Gen I games, Moltres is stuck in Victory Road like an afterthought, and would therefore be inaccessible to Green. But in Gen III, it has its own roosting spot in Mt. Ember on the Sevii Isles. Gen IV re-relocates Moltres to Mt. Silver, which also doesn't exist in the Gen I games. But why would she be bitter at you? It's not like you asked Giovanni to resign. If anything, she should be angry at Giovanni. I'm also not crazy about the idea that you'd have an opportunity to face Mewtwo before the birds, since Mewtwo's basically the strongest Pokemon in Gen I. I mean, yeah, you can seek out Mewtwo before them if you wish once you've become Champion, but logically it'd make more sense to emphasize the birds first. My suggestion was mainly a way of guiding the player towards the remaining threads in the game, in the most logical order: Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, and finally Mewtwo. Notably, in my proposed scenario, Green has access to Victory Road thanks to the Guest Pass, though I haven't figured out how she gets there before you do in the post game. I guess the Guest Pass could still apply? On 11/7/2021 at 5:01 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: As for her role in GSC, I'd rather she not displace anyone already established. Perhaps her role could again emphasize the legendary birds - only this time, she's wondering where they've flown off to. By going to the Power Plant, Seafoam Islands, and Victory Road (post-E4), you can help her research and have a battle. In the process, she realizes that Lugia is the key (he's established to be the "trio master" of the legendary birds, after all), and gives you the Silver Wing (this works on G/C/HG, but would have to be rewritten for S/SS). Go to the Whirl Islands, and face Lugia - whether you capture or defeat him, the Birds will show up, and then fly away to become roaming legendaries around Kanto (or go to their static spots in HGSS). Capture all three birds, and show them to Green, and she'll battle you one last time. Interesting thought, though by that point I think she'd move on to the Legendary Beasts, perhaps working with Eusine. I thought it'd be cool if she turned out to be the new Champion in Gen II, then once you defeat her she enlists your aid in finding a "long absent friend". Honestly, they could boot Koga or Will out of the Elite Four and have Lance reprise his role as the most Elite of the Four. I'd be fine if they stuck with Karen, Bruno, Lorelei, and Lance, simply replacing Agatha with Karen, as Will and Koga offered little as Elite Four members (and in the event of a re-remake, maybe swap Bruno or Lorelei out for a Fairy-type specialist). Also, I think it'd be cool if Green showed up as a mentor of sorts during the main story of GSC, perhaps helping you take on Team Rocket again. Since she'd be three years older, she'd be more experienced and capable (and in my story, she definitely wouldn't wind up a damsel in distress like she does in my proposed RB story...twice). As cool as it is to see Lance wreck Team Rocket's $#!t with his Dragonite, it'd be all the more meaningful for Green to help you against Team Rocket, as much to vindicate her less glorious past encounters with them (though that second time, she was kicking their butts until Giovanni showed up with his Mewtwo to immobilize Green and her Pokemon, as a prelude to him doing the same thing to you and your Pokemon). Honestly, I could see Green becoming an Interpol agent in later generations, perhaps as Looker's protege or something. Investigating and fighting crime could become one of her things, making her the Chun-Li to Red's Ryu. In the event the devs ever decide to switch her and Blue's names back again, that would be even more apt, since the color blue is often associated with the police. I'd also probably give the Kanto region more plot in general, maybe center around Team Rocket trying to rebuild their presence there after Red and Green utterly destroyed it three years prior. Heck, maybe even continue the Mewtwo subplot that the Gen I games merely hinted at. Perhaps Red and Mewtwo got separated during those three years, and Team Rocket managed to create a second, even more dangerous clone of Mew in the vein of "Mewthree" or "Mewtri" or something. Maybe that's why Red's training at Mt. Silver: to prepare for the impending battle against a Pokemon that threatens the world? Definitely beats simply being a silent teenage hermit. Though since the Gen II games as are were a miracle performed by none other than the late, great Satoru Iwata, we would probably have to wait until the remakes to add on to the story further. Which would mean more chances to team up with Green in battle. On 11/7/2021 at 5:01 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said: As for pairing her with Red, I'm not one for canonizing ships, especially those featuring player characters. Maybe people like Red x Blue, or Green x Brock, I dunno. Then again, the idea of future protagonists being descended from past ones is pretty cool, if we ever get a game set deep enough into the future. I was going to say "Red & Blue still look teenagers in Sun & Moon", but I checked the wiki and apparently they're at least in their twenties? Go figure. I guess they could always leave it up in the air or simply imply it, like if you encounter a pair of siblings who happen to look like Red and Green. One of them could mention that their mom is an Interpol agent and their dad, a master Pokemon trainer, who together helped bring down a criminal organization. Now that I think about it, I like the idea that Green, even in Gen I, is connected to Interpol through family, perhaps a mother or father who could lead a police raid on the Team Rocket Hideout and/or get captured while investigating the Silph Co. Office Building before Green herself infiltrates the building. It would explain how she's so knowledgeable about the Pokemon League as well as Team Rocket, and would make her eventual advancement into an Interpol agent herself all the more satisfying. Also, her parent or parents' career might mean she spends a lot of time traveling and thus doesn't have many close friends, explaining why she's so keen on spending as much time with Red as possible. She might even end up leaving Kanto at the end of the game, leading to a bittersweet scene between her and Red where she hopes they meet again one day. Cue GSC, where they finally reunite at Mt. Silver and, after you defeat Red, Green asks him to come join Interpol and be her partner, now that he's no longer the active Champion of Kanto or Johto. All this talk of Green becoming an international cop is kinda ironic when you consider her Adventures counterpart started out as a con artist and thief raised by a masked villain. Edited November 12, 2021 by Lord_Brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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