Not sure how to proceed in my Hard/Casual Conquest file

[Oops! All OCs]

I started a brand new file on my old 3DS after years of being away from Fates, I'm trying to do a no-DLC, no non-vanilla items run to try and play the game like an actual FE fan, since I've always been focused on the overgrinding aspects and never the difficulty.

I'm on map 19 and I'm struggling with the hit rates, damage output and weaknesses that my units have. Plus the feeling of being underleveled. I feel like I can't deal good damage at this stage and can't really counter the Nine Tails that I have to fight, since they just abuse the new "illusion" mechanic + run up and quickly kill my units with their high damage, hitting weaknesses, high hit rate, etc... and a bunch of my units have like... 50% hit rates. Camilla especially. My units are underleveled too, I'm not sure how I was supposed to keep up and now I have only a handful who are at level 16-20.

I think I really screwed things up, making my Benny a Great Knight just a chapter before and opening a beast weakness on him in the process, and a bunch of my gold spent on weapons and other stuff instead of Seals.

Should I try and reclass my Benny to General to help with tanking? Maybe take advantage of Invasion 2 that just opened up to get some skills that might help, like Heartseeker on Camilla? Or should I just make a new file? I'll answer any questions I need to, I'm just not too sure what I need to do next, because I feel like I've hit a wall...

Edited November 24, 2021 by Oops! All OCs
Spelling error

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Stuff I could think about that applies to lunatic, but should also be ok for Hard. 

 

I´m thinking being lvl 16-20 is a little low for this. I usually start promoting at chapter16/17. Then again, even earlypromoting should be cool, considering you actively need it.

Invasion 2 is way harder than this chapter if it´s the one I´m thinking about.

Kaze with a Hunnting Knife might serve you well.

You should have a Beast Killer in you inventory/armory.

Do you have a leveled Effie or Beruka? They should be quite tanky, even more so when promoted. Also Xander on a Wyvern can use the Beastkiller without weakness. Reclassing Benny can work too - he also has a personal skill that lowers enemy dodge. Think about using Heartseeker - level 1 Dark Mage skill to make especially dodgy foxes targetable.

Tonics. SPD/DEF for obvious reasons, STR if you need to reach 1hko thresholds etc. Same for the Mess Hall and Meals - check here to see what does what and who does what:

Mess Hall - Serenes Forest

Avoid fighting foxes on terrain - it massively boosts their dodge.

Check skills - if it has Life and Death (+10dmg dealt/received) stay away on EP and kill on PP.

 

We won´t really be able to help without knowing your units.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Yeah the Ninetails chapter is a tricky one...Well here are a few pointers you can try out a little before trying to reset:

Don't forget about meals and tonics, if those +2s to stats will make the difference, use them.

Illusion magic is a double edged sword if every enemy in the formation is on the same illusion timer, then the turns they are vulnerable to being attacked they can't retaliate on their turn, so you can really go all out, and find a safe formation to deal with what survived next turn. Now there are formations on that map with mixed illusion timers, which are the ones you need to be more careful of.

One thing that helps with accuracy is using attack stance, it gives a minimum +10 hit, and could get you more depending on supports, plus Corrins Supportive personal (which can be trigger using his attack stance) gives another +10, plus Benny's personal reduces enemy avoid by 10...

If tanking is your biggest issue you could try the @starburst formation as a way to tank better for this map, only deploy 10 units, all paired up with 4 pairs surrounding Elise so that they all can get the benefits of her -3 damage personal (if they are male they can get another -2 damage from her demoiselle), you might even have defense rally if you have a level 5 Wyvern Lord to give most of the others another +4 defense. Admittedly having that many units paired is a serious commitment, as you can't easily transition to a formation that can use attack stance, but it might be necessary...

 

4 hours ago, Oops! All OCs said:

My units are underleveled too, I'm not sure how I was supposed to keep up and now I have only a handful who are at level 16-20.

That does sound a little low. If you have access to any of the kids paralogues it might be a good idea to try and recruit them, as with their Offspring seal they get scaled to level 20/2 at that point (plus it gets you an opportunity to get some of your units caught up on levels, and depending on the paralogue might get you other useful resoirces).

 

4 hours ago, Oops! All OCs said:

 

I think I really screwed things up, making my Benny a Great Knight just a chapter before and opening a beast weakness on him in the process, and a bunch of my gold spent on weapons and other stuff instead of Seals.

 

In general I find that Benny works better as a General than  a Great Knight. While Effie has enough speed on her to works well as a Great Knight, Benny's speed is so low that the General's Wary Fighter skill is the only way to avoid being doubled (which helps him a lot).

[Shadow Mir]

If you have Hunter's Bows, use them (there is the caveat that they're randomly obtained, so there is a chance you might not have any). Beast Killers and Hunting Knives are effective too. Aside from this and attack stance use, I can't help much more without knowing who you're using.

5 hours ago, Oops! All OCs said:

My units are underleveled too, I'm not sure how I was supposed to keep up and now I have only a handful who are at level 16-20.

Oof. I have my A-team promoted by this point (they generally promote around chapter 16/17)..

[Oops! All OCs]

I managed to beat it while falling apart at the end, and a bunch of my units having to retreat because I have bad habits. -sighs-

I only saw Eltosian's reply because of me being new and not thinking to scroll up, so I retried it again with using Elise's personal skill and Corrin's personal and a reclassed General Benny whenever I thought I could, and I then realized that I should be focusing the enemies with Beastrunes as Xander and other heavy hitters and trying to use Dual Strikes in general to handle both Beaststoners (lmao) and Beastruners.
 

5 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Stuff I could think about that applies to lunatic, but should also be ok for Hard. 

 

I´m thinking being lvl 16-20 is a little low for this. I usually start promoting at chapter16/17. Then again, even earlypromoting should be cool, considering you actively need it.

Invasion 2 is way harder than this chapter if it´s the one I´m thinking about.

Kaze with a Hunnting Knife might serve you well.

You should have a Beast Killer in you inventory/armory.

Do you have a leveled Effie or Beruka? They should be quite tanky, even more so when promoted. Also Xander on a Wyvern can use the Beastkiller without weakness. Reclassing Benny can work too - he also has a personal skill that lowers enemy dodge. Think about using Heartseeker - level 1 Dark Mage skill to make especially dodgy foxes targetable.

Tonics. SPD/DEF for obvious reasons, STR if you need to reach 1hko thresholds etc. Same for the Mess Hall and Meals - check here to see what does what and who does what:

Mess Hall - Serenes Forest

Avoid fighting foxes on terrain - it massively boosts their dodge.

Check skills - if it has Life and Death (+10dmg dealt/received) stay away on EP and kill on PP.

 

We won´t really be able to help without knowing your units.

I figured it was too low tbh. I typically try to avoid promoting before level 20 at all costs for fear of missing stats, but that might not be the best thing to do in the longrun.

Kaze is also low level, around level 15 (at the time) because I was focusing on units to help me get through the earlier chapters. I had a Beast Killer but I put it on Silas, took it off and then I think I forgot to put it back on someone.

Effie is a promoted General, thankfully. Benny has also had a valuable Heart Seal used on him to move him to General. Beruka, I struggled to make work and she might be getting benched.

I keep forgetting to use the Mess Halls, that's something I should always be doing but I'm forgetting to. Thanks.

Do I have to type them all down, or is there a more optimal method this forum uses for rapidly showing what a person's units are currently like?
 

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Yeah the Ninetails chapter is a tricky one...Well here are a few pointers you can try out a little before trying to reset:

Don't forget about meals and tonics, if those +2s to stats will make the difference, use them.

Illusion magic is a double edged sword if every enemy in the formation is on the same illusion timer, then the turns they are vulnerable to being attacked they can't retaliate on their turn, so you can really go all out, and find a safe formation to deal with what survived next turn. Now there are formations on that map with mixed illusion timers, which are the ones you need to be more careful of.

One thing that helps with accuracy is using attack stance, it gives a minimum +10 hit, and could get you more depending on supports, plus Corrins Supportive personal (which can be trigger using his attack stance) gives another +10, plus Benny's personal reduces enemy avoid by 10...

If tanking is your biggest issue you could try the @starburst formation as a way to tank better for this map, only deploy 10 units, all paired up with 4 pairs surrounding Elise so that they all can get the benefits of her -3 damage personal (if they are male they can get another -2 damage from her demoiselle), you might even have defense rally if you have a level 5 Wyvern Lord to give most of the others another +4 defense. Admittedly having that many units paired is a serious commitment, as you can't easily transition to a formation that can use attack stance, but it might be necessary...

 

That does sound a little low. If you have access to any of the kids paralogues it might be a good idea to try and recruit them, as with their Offspring seal they get scaled to level 20/2 at that point (plus it gets you an opportunity to get some of your units caught up on levels, and depending on the paralogue might get you other useful resoirces).

 

In general I find that Benny works better as a General than  a Great Knight. While Effie has enough speed on her to works well as a Great Knight, Benny's speed is so low that the General's Wary Fighter skill is the only way to avoid being doubled (which helps him a lot).

Thanks for your tips btw. I managed to get through without resetting.

I didn't understand what you meant by illusion magic being double edged until I happened to witness it in action. I just wish I actually realized this prior, since maybe I could have taken advantage of it.

Attack stance was extremely handy, especially for letting big hitters like Xanders have more chances to deal damage.

I was thinking of marrying F Corrin with Odin to get two kids at the same time, but... hmm.

I need to get that Rally Defense skill, but I don't have the gold intake to keep spending on seals...

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

7 hours ago, Oops! All OCs said:

Do I have to type them all down, or is there a more optimal method this forum uses for rapidly showing what a person's units are currently like?

Ehhh, I meant so we know what units you actively use and plan to use and their classes - but since you beat it, it´s all good.

And no, there´s no such tool as far as i´m aware.

[Eltosian Kadath]

4 hours ago, Oops! All OCs said:

Thanks for your tips btw. I managed to get through without resetting.

Congrats, glad I could help.

 

42 minutes ago, Oops! All OCs said:

I figured it was too low tbh. I typically try to avoid promoting before level 20 at all costs for fear of missing stats, but that might not be the best thing to do in the longrun.

Promoting at 20 isn't a bad idea in Conquest (although there are exceptions, like promoting Elise a little early to give her the means to attack, or promoting units that you plan to use as a "backpack" at level 10), but it sounds like you have fallen a bit behind in your exp, perhaps by spreading your exp a little thin by trying to train more units than you can field at once, or perhaps that too much experience was funneled into the early prepromoted (that isn't to say you shouldn't use your powerful prepromotes like Camilla and Xander, but if they get over half the kills on a map, rather than like the kills of 1-2 of your other main units you are using, that is going to hurt your exp), or perhaps some other reason I haven't thought of. I think the clear fix for that is to try and recruit some of the child units, as the game will scale them to the level the game is roughly expecting your units to be at (I think that will be about level 20/4 at this point...), so you can get a unit that is level ready for where you are, and if your Niles has been trained enough to capture, you could use the capture command to grab some enemy units to join your ranks that can be comparable as well, and most people find more disposable (some notable ones that come to mind is Nichol (the boss of the paralogue for Silas's kid) who plays similar to Camilla, or Gazak (the boss of the paralogue for Leo's kid)) although be warned some of the paralogues might be rather difficult (the paralogue for Benny's kid for instance has some serious balance issues if you wait too long, and this might be far enough into the game that it becomes more effort than it is worth).

 

39 minutes ago, Oops! All OCs said:

 

Do I have to type them all down, or is there a more optimal method this forum uses for rapidly showing what a person's units are currently like?

 

If you have some means of taking a screen shot, or picture of the game, that could be easier. There is a limit to the number of images you can upload on the site, but it usually isn't an issue unless you start posting a screen-shot LP, or are particularly picture prone, in which case you might want to find an image hosting site.

 

39 minutes ago, Oops! All OCs said:

 

Attack stance was extremely handy, especially for letting big hitters like Xanders have more chances to deal damage.

 

One of my favorite mechanics from Fates, and the balance between the more defensive, and enemy phase focused guard stance (or pair-up), and the more offensive, and player phase focused attack stance is an interesting trade-off. Learning how best to use attack stance will help you play through Conquest, although part of the fun of Conquest is that it is robust enough that there are numerous ways to play. Personally I prefer using attack stance to guard stance when I can, but there are plenty of people who prefer guard stance, and use it far more readily than I do.

 

39 minutes ago, Oops! All OCs said:

I need to get that Rally Defense skill, but I don't have the gold intake to keep spending on seals...

If you can get Arthur married, his son starts in the Wyvern class line, and you are late enough into the game that he comes with an Offspring Seal, so it wont cost you any gold to get it on him (just make sure to make him a Wyvern Lord, and not a Maligknight). Plus that paralogue can get you some cash if you use the dragon vein well, but it can be tricky to pull off if you get too greedy.

[starburst]

On 11/24/2021 at 1:25 PM, Oops! All OCs said:

I'm on map 19 and I'm struggling with the hit rates, damage output and weaknesses that my units have. Plus the feeling of being underleveled. I feel like I can't deal good damage at this stage and can't really counter the Nine Tails that I have to fight, since they just abuse the new "illusion" mechanic + run up and quickly kill my units with their high damage, hitting weaknesses, high hit rate, etc... and a bunch of my units have like... 50% hit rates. Camilla especially. My units are underleveled too, I'm not sure how I was supposed to keep up and now I have only a handful who are at level 16-20.

I know that you already completed Chapter 19, congratulations.
If you want to read a couple of messages about it (that may also be useful further in the game), please check:

1. https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/95043-this-game-really-seems-to-hate-you-for-trying-to-finish-quickly/&do=findComment&comment=5848121
2. https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/92580-conquest-drinking-thread/&do=findComment&comment=5668614

The map is tricky because the enemies have a very high evasion and are accurate, but the defensive thresholds are actually not that high (around 20 Def), and can be reached by numerous party members and classes.
One needs to prepare for the map (tonics, weapons, meals, auras), but one certainly does not need to build a party specifically for this map (like one does need to do for Lunatic Endgame, for example.) The fear of the first impression is way worse than the actual difficulty of the map. It is methodical, and completing it with a variety of parties is perfectly reproducible.

Since I only use ten units, I must say that your party seems under-levelled, for my entire party class-changes around Chapter 14 at Level 19, and are already at Level 3-4 promoted by the time they face Chapter 19. On the other hand, if you use more units, your fire power may be way higher on Player Phase.

 

On 11/24/2021 at 10:24 PM, Oops! All OCs said:

Attack stance was extremely handy, especially for letting big hitters like Xanders have more chances to deal damage.

I was thinking of marrying F Corrin with Odin to get two kids at the same time, but... hmm.

I need to get that Rally Defense skill, but I don't have the gold intake to keep spending on seals...

On smaller parties (say, ten units), Attack Stance is the only way to complete a map. You cannot advance unless you have enough damage output to clear areas. You should rely more heavily on Attack Stance, as it is the fastest way to advance.
Guard Stance is very handy in specific situations, unfortunately it is easily exploitable and causes bad habits (probably inherited from Awakening.)

Marry Odin, you will get the best spell caster in the game and unique treasures. You can bench Odin afterwards if he does not suit your party.

Assuming that you use the royals, the easiest way to get Rally Defence is yo re-class Camilla into a Wyvern Lord. It will be the first skill that she learns, and the class growths suit her better. No tits or ass, though.

Edited November 27, 2021 by starburst

[Oops! All OCs]

1 hour ago, starburst said:

I know that you already completed Chapter 19, congratulations.
If you want to read a couple of messages about it (that may also be useful further in the game), please check:

1. https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/95043-this-game-really-seems-to-hate-you-for-trying-to-finish-quickly/&do=findComment&comment=5848121
2. https://forums.serenesforest.net/index.php?/topic/92580-conquest-drinking-thread/&do=findComment&comment=5668614

The map is tricky because the enemies have a very high evasion and are accurate, but the defensive thresholds are actually not that high (around 20 Def), and can be reached by numerous party members and classes.
One needs to prepare for the map (tonics, weapons, meals, auras), but one certainly does not need to build a party specifically for this map (like one does need to do for Lunatic Endgame, for example.) The fear of the first impression is way worse than the actual difficulty of the map. It is methodical, and completing it with a variety of parties is perfectly reproducible.

Since I only use ten units, I must say that your party seems under-levelled, for my entire party class-changes around Chapter 14 at Level 19, and are already at Level 3-4 promoted by the time they face Chapter 19. On the other hand, if you use more units, your fire power may be way higher on Player Phase.

 

On smaller parties (say, ten units), Attack Stance is the only way to complete a map. You cannot advance unless you have enough damage output to clear areas. You should rely more heavily on Attack Stance, as it is the fastest way to advance.
Guard Stance is very handy in specific situations, unfortunately it is easily exploitable and causes bad habits (probably inherited from Awakening.)

Marry Odin, you will get the best spell caster in the game and unique treasures. You can bench Odin afterwards if he does not suit your party.

Assuming that you use the royals, the easiest way to get Rally Defence is yo re-class Camilla into a Wyvern Lord. It will be the first skill that she learns, and the class growths suit her better. No tits or ass, though.

Thank you very much. I managed to get my party leveled via a very successful Kana paralogue. I began to figure that Attack Stance was mandatory once I reached map 23, simply because of how high enemy HP was getting, and how enemy defenses were becoming high as well.

I think I bit off more than I can chew though, since I'm not even used to not grinding DLC or side chapters for fun and then steamrolling the story on simply coincidence because I'm overleveled. I managed to get to map 23 before I felt like things were getting extremely hard and turned the difficulty down to Normal, since I need to get used to other stuff first. And, wow, I'm either used to Hard now or something, because there is a massive difference between the two... 

I DID make a separate save before doing this, however. It's possible that I might actually pick up from this save if I feel like I want to try again.

There's something that makes me a bit confused though. I was trying to use Attack Stance as much as possible, and it seemed like killing entire groups on map 23 on player phase felt almost impossible simply due to how much damage I would take if I used units in the wrong order. I can't even imagine beating Hinata's little bully squad in a single phase, I'm assuming it revolves around having Xander for Attack Stance for maximized assist damage?

Camilla also works better as a Wyvern Lord? Interesting, thinking on it now, you're right. Her stats match up with that. Thanks, I might reclass her into Wyvern Lord from now on.

 

[starburst]

9 hours ago, Oops! All OCs said:

I managed to get to map 23 before I felt like things were getting extremely hard and turned the difficulty down to Normal, since I need to get used to other stuff first. And, wow, I'm either used to Hard now or something, because there is a massive difference between the two...

You are right: Normal is an entirely different game. It is also worthless, for it teaches you nothing.

One / Two / Three

 

9 hours ago, Oops! All OCs said:

There's something that makes me a bit confused though. I was trying to use Attack Stance as much as possible, and it seemed like killing entire groups on map 23 on player phase felt almost impossible simply due to how much damage I would take if I used units in the wrong order. I can't even imagine beating Hinata's little bully squad in a single phase, I'm assuming it revolves around having Xander for Attack Stance for maximized assist damage?

Nope. Xander and Camilla are not even allowed in my campaigns. 👻

The first link posted in my previous message also addresses Chapter 23. Feel free to read it.

Do not be fooled by the royals: they are front-liners, and as such, they may or may not one-hit or one-round. That is not their main function. Sorcerers, Snipers and Berserkers can easily deal more damage and will guarantee kills. That is their sole purpose.
You want multiple one-hitters and one-rounders, not multiple front-liners. Only two maps out of twenty seven are “open”, your party is hardly ever surrounded.

For your next campaign, you may want to focus on damage output while building your party, so that you can reliably wipe areas while advancing. Do not hold positions, go ahead and kill them all.
Remember: the defensive thresholds are invariably lower and easier to reach than the offensive ones.

Some general advices for Conquest.

[Shadow Mir]

22 hours ago, starburst said:

For your next campaign, you may want to focus on damage output while building your party, so that you can reliably wipe areas while advancing. Do not hold positions, go ahead and kill them all.

That's not as easy as you make it sound imo - most enemies aren't kind enough to charge you unprovoked, meaning you need a lure to bait them into action before you can take them on your terms. And then you have cases like the room of Berserkers and Generals in chapter 26. 10 enemies (ignoring the two maids, Hans and the two generals nearby) isn't an amount one can expect to take out all at once without astronomical luck (and of course, you risk exposing someone to lethal danger even if it was feasible). You're better off finding a way to thin the numbers before taking initiative. Long story short, reckless courage (which you seem to be supporting) is foolish.

On 11/27/2021 at 12:57 PM, Oops! All OCs said:

I would take if I used units in the wrong order. I can't even imagine beating Hinata's little bully squad in a single phase, I'm assuming it revolves around having Xander for Attack Stance for maximized assist damage?

You can instead just have Camilla and whatever fliers you have fly your units over the ravine, as Hinata and his unit won't bother pursuing. This makes things much easier.

[Oops! All OCs]

On 11/28/2021 at 10:42 PM, Shadow Mir said:

That's not as easy as you make it sound imo - most enemies aren't kind enough to charge you unprovoked, meaning you need a lure to bait them into action before you can take them on your terms. And then you have cases like the room of Berserkers and Generals in chapter 26. 10 enemies (ignoring the two maids, Hans and the two generals nearby) isn't an amount one can expect to take out all at once without astronomical luck (and of course, you risk exposing someone to lethal danger even if it was feasible). You're better off finding a way to thin the numbers before taking initiative. Long story short, reckless courage (which you seem to be supporting) is foolish.

You can instead just have Camilla and whatever fliers you have fly your units over the ravine, as Hinata and his unit won't bother pursuing. This makes things much easier.

I think I may try another Hard/Casual Conquest playthrough... I'll try to keep starbursts' tips in mind like promoting earlier, but what you're bringing up is a concern of mine, which is why I asked about tanking in some of my topics, since not every unit has the Mov to close the distance, which might result in getting attacked on enemy turn and potentially dying.

I also struggled with the final chapter on Normal, my Skill boon Corrin came in clutch and activated her skills on the boss to deal enough damage,  but Endgame was far easier for me. I fear how those chapters will go on Hard...

 

[starburst]

2 hours ago, Oops! All OCs said:

I asked about tanking in some of my topics, since not every unit has the Mov to close the distance, which might result in getting attacked on enemy turn and potentially dying.

What exactly troubles you? Name a particular situation and we will try to help you.
Honestly, I am more inclined to believe that the approach has more issues than the units.

I can guarantee you that, after twenty or so campaigns playing Conquest with ten units, no royals and no "backpacks", the defensive thresholds are never as high as one may think.

The usual suspects:
 

Spoiler

Chapter 17 has two or three interesting turns while you hold the enemies behind a wall, but then it is so slow paced that your units can safely learn skills in alternate classes just walking around. The boss is annoying, I give you that.
Silas or Cornflakes or any Paladin or any Hero can hold the position those two turns, and then your party marches cleaning areas. Odin or Ophelia can “tank” the Ninja reinforcements infinitely, a Sniper takes care of any and all behind-the-wall Master Ninjas, and then there is nothing else to do. You either go on in circles if you want the money or the Experience, or go ahead and karaoke Can’t Touch This with the boss.

We already addressed Chapter 19.

Chapter 20 can be completed within six or so turns without a single mounted unit. And this is possible thanks to the winds, which will invariably transport you right next to Pimp Fuga as long as you head east.

Chapter 23 is a thrilling succession of assaults. Apart from the group of Snipers at the very start of the map and, again, another group of Snipers on the roof, every other enemy is gone on Player Phase. Every one of them. Every single enemy disappears without ever landing a single hit on Enemy Phase.
And if I do it with ten units, you can surely do it with sixteen (or whatever the upper limit is.)

I will tell you this: Let me know when you want to start a new campaign on Hard, and I will gladly start a new one alongside. Then we can share particular questions and provide specific numbers about offence or defence.
I am always looking for excuses to start a new campaign anyway.

Edited December 1, 2021 by starburst