Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Etrurian emperor

The official Naruto thread

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Sasori said:

I completely forgot I named my username after a Naruto character for a moment.

Aaanyway. After thinking back on it I found the OG Naruto a bit better then the Shippuden. Mostly because I found it consistently good and the smaller power scale gave it a unique vibe. It wasn't flawless, but I still found it a very solid and straightforward way to move the story and world along

Yeah; I think most can agree that Shippuden has greater highs and lows while original Naruto is more consistent.

By the way, is it just OG Naruto and Naruto Shippuden that you've seen, or have you seen other canon content such as The Last: Naruto the Movie and Boruto?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

5. a writer never does anything without reason. Nothing in a story is meaningless. Everything in a story has meaning and analysis is all about finding that meaning. Don’t dismiss things as not mattering when you could instead aim to find out why they do. You say Kaguya adds nothing to the story? How does she add nothing? Prove that to me. I’ve already proven what she adds to this story as in she acts as a physical manifestation of the flaws of the shinobi system. Yeah themes aren’t everything but she does add those things which isn’t nothing meaning the claim that she adds nothing is false. Once again the burden of proof lies with you.

I didn't bring up Kaguya in this topic. Partially because I don't think she's interesting as anything except a trainwreck. I found the contrast between plot points represented by the likes of Danzo and Onoki and those represented by the Uchiha clan more interesting. I made this topic to discuss more interesting topics such as the worldbuilding or female characters  

Why I don't think she adds something is because the idea of ninja as tools was already firmly established. All the way from the Zabuza arc up up to the war arc where its painfully clear how Madara treats everyone as a tool. There was no need to bring a complete outsider to the story, who know one knew of and who knew none of the characters that were going to fight her. I also don't inherently agree that she's a physical representation of the flaws in the shinobi system because she exist completely outside of that system. Danzo and Madara are more manifestations of those flaws because one is the representation of everything rotten about the system and the other a zealot trying to overthrow that system. I think Kaguya being such an outsider prevents her from being a representation of anything in the series. 

1 hour ago, Ottservia said:

And this is kind of an extension to the second point but if Kishimoto truly wanted to give Kiba more screentime he very easily could have. There were plenty of opportunities like during the war or against pain. But he doesn’t probably because he didn’t view Kiba as an important enough character to develop at this point in the story. Developing Kiba’s character wouldn’t have added anything to the story he was trying to tell so he simply didn’t bother. Does it suck for fans of that character? Sure it does but it’s not an objective flaw of the story because at the end of the day it is Kishimoto’s story and he can do whatever he wants with it. If he didn’t want to further develop Kiba’s character then he shouldn’t have to.

That really depends. If you think one villain is more interesting than the other than you can conclude that it was a mistake for that other villain to have given focus. And if you give strong reasoning as to why that is then that should be something you're allowed to do. Sometimes a majority of the fanbase agrees an old villain is more impressive than the one that replaced him, sometimes a minority does it and I don't see the problem with that. If you think Pain's more interesting than Tobi and you can articulate why then that's all that matters. Shutting down the debate with the message that Kishi preferred Tobi is moot, because we already know he does. It doesn't mean you can't disagree. Yeah it was clear as day that Kishimoto vastly prefered Deidara over Sasori and any Sasori fan should have room to disagree with that. 

You don't have to agree with any decision a writer makes. If I think using the other villages as window dressings rather than true aspects of the world and I can explain why that is then I should be able to do that. If I found status quo hardliners standing against Naruto's own ninja way more interesting then destiny and I can explain why then I should be able to do it. Debates about the series would get a lot less interesting if we couldn't do that. 

4 hours ago, Ottservia said:

He’s been implying it the entire time and it’s making me sick. If you want an example just look at the last paragraph of his first post. Saying Kishimoto isn’t a good writer. That’s a pretentious statement if I’ve ever heard one.

I think you're doing me too little credit. In the same paragraph as I say its really obvious that Kishi has to rely more on retcons than his peers I also says he's typically able to explain them well. Yeah, the Tailed Beasts being closer to Pokemon than demons is kinda weird after seeing the Nine Tails act like a completely malicious entity in the earlier arcs but an explanation between these old depictions and the new story beats is typically given. Take Hashirama for instance. In part one he's only mildly impressive in the grand scheme of things but in part two where a bigger power spectrum is introduced we're supposed to think he was essentially a demigod. And that's easily explained away by edo tensei not being perfected and Hashi being weaker than he used to be. 

I do say he's a weaker writer than Oda but....that's not controversial. Oda being in a league all of his own is about the most common opinion in the Manga world you can think off. And if I thought he was a super weak writer I'd never have bothered making a topic about his series or get invested in his work.

 

 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; I think most can agree that Shippuden has greater highs and lows while original Naruto is more consistent.

I also think there was something more....mm what's the word? Magical? Imaginative? Refereshing? about gen 1. There was this really upbeat theme whenever something epic happened that really meshed well with the feeling of the original and which I think was mostly absent from Shippuden.

The fights and everything else seemed to be on a smaller and more intimate scale, with fight also being somewhat more tactical instead of focused on raw power. 

Though maybe that's to some extend also nostalgia goggles since I was a lot younger than and Naruto(as well as anime as a whole) more new to me.

Edited by Etrurian emperor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I also think there was something more....mm what's the word? Magical? Imaginative? Refreshing? about gen 1. There was this really upbeat theme whenever something epic happened that really meshed well with the feeling of the original and which I think was mostly absent from Shippuden.

The fights and everything else seemed to be on a smaller and more intimate scale, with fight also being somewhat more tactical instead of focused on raw power. 

Though maybe that's to some extend also nostalgia goggles since I was a lot younger than and Naruto(as well as anime as a whole) more new to me.

Hm... as someone who doesn't have nostalgia goggles, I can honestly say that... I'm not sure. It could very well be that there was something about part 1 of Naruto.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; I think most can agree that Shippuden has greater highs and lows while original Naruto is more consistent.

By the way, is it just OG Naruto and Naruto Shippuden that you've seen, or have you seen other canon content such as The Last: Naruto the Movie and Boruto?

I've never got around to the last. I remember dropping the series for a while after Madara started to overstay his welcome.

I am however a (very casual) Boruto watcher. I think it fixes my main complain with Shippuden, but also has some problems of its own. The best thing about Boruto is that I feel it has a very strong cast. Everyone on team 7 are interesting characters and the support cast are both fun and well utilised. The new Ino chika cho group has a fun dynamic, but even the other genins have stuff to do. Even the really unimportant genin like mini Kakashi and monster girl get some small filler stuff.

My main problem is that the main plot tends to leave me uninterested. The moon people kinda blend together for me, but I even got my problems with the more normal Naruto stuff. The first chuunin exam for example felt like it did't have the same 'oomph' as the original. The second round was a real trial in OG Naruto where we got to see all those new ninja's in a survial setting. Here it was just one short episode that was there to introduce the cheating. The last round also really felt like it was rushing to the things already seen in the movie. I remember many of the 'unimportant' battles such as Inojin vs sand girl only lasting 10 seconds or so.

So I enjoy Boruto, but its pretty much the only anime where I stick around for the fillers and kinda skim through the main plot.

Edited by Sasori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sasori said:

I've never got around to the last. I remember dropping the series after Madara started to overstay his welcome.

I am however a (very casual) Boruto. I think it fixes my main complain with Shippuden, but also has some problems of its own. The best thing about Boruto is the cast. Everyone on team 7 are interesting characters and the support cast are both fun and well utilized. The new Ino chika show trio get a lot of focus, but now the other teams can play too. Even someone as minor as mini Kakashi got a little filler episode as did the team with the monster girl in it.

My main problem is that the main plot tends to leave me uninterested. The moon people kinda blend together for me, but I even got my problems with the more normal Naruto stuff. The first chuunin exam for example felt like it didn't have the same 'oomph' as the original. The second round was a real trial in OG Naruto where we got to see all those new ninja's in a survival setting. Here it was just one short episode that was there to introduce the cheating. The last round also really felt like it was rushing to the things already seen in the movie. I remember many of the 'unimportant' battles such as Inojin vs sand girl only lasting 10 seconds or so.

So I enjoy Boruto, but its pretty much the only anime where I stick around for the fillers and kinda skim through the main plot.

I see. Well, The Last is really good; it's definitely worth watching.

Technically, that episode with the Kakashi fanboy wasn't actually filler. The way the Boruto anime works is that the vast majority of the anime-only content is considered canon.

Yeah; the prevalence of the Otsutsuki in Boruto is rather annoying. As for the first chunin exams arc (I say "first" because the current arc of the anime is another chunin exams), yeah; I understand the exams no longer being as dangerous because it's now a time of peace, but you're right that there isn't as much suspense as there was in the OG Naruto chunin exams. I will just quickly point out that Inojin didn't fight the sand girl; Shikadai did (because of course he did). Inojin fought the puppet user.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Why I don't think she adds something is because the idea of ninja as tools was already firmly established. All the way from the Zabuza arc up up to the war arc where its painfully clear how Madara treats everyone as a tool. There was no need to bring a complete outsider to the story, who know one knew of and who knew none of the characters that were going to fight her. I also don't inherently agree that she's a physical representation of the flaws in the shinobi system because she exist completely outside of that system. Danzo and Madara are more manifestations of those flaws because one is the representation of everything rotten about the system and the other a zealot trying to overthrow that system. I think Kaguya being such an outsider prevents her from being a representation of anything in the series. 

That still does not prove my claim false. The reason Kaguya works at all is because she exists outside the dualistic world of shinobi. Think about it, Madara wanted to neutralize the human paradox by becoming a god that rose above the dualistic nature of humanity. What is Kaguya? Oh that’s right a god that exists above the dualistic nature of humanity. Hmmmm it’s almost as if Kaguya is an extension of that idea. An extension of Madara’s goals and ideals as well as those of the shinobi world as a whole. She wanted to turn everyone into mindless white zetsu tools which is a perfect parallel to how shinobi are viewed as tools by the shinobi system but in this case it’s extremely literal. Kaguya herself meanwhile also represents the perfect shinobi explained by Haku. She is a being who has completely cut away her heart and wants to do the same to the rest of the world through the infinite tsukuyomi. The word shinobi can be interpreted two different ways with the kanji that makes it up. 忍 normally translates as endurance but when you look at the radicals that make it up(“刀” meaning blade and “心” meaning heart) you can interpret it as “heart cut away by blade” which is what Kaguya is. This idea is further compounded with black zetsu saying that all of shinobi history was nothing more than a tool to facilitate Kaguya’s revival but he’s wrong. Shinobi history is more than that. Shinobi are not tools. Shinobi are human. Shinobi are those that endure and it is that fact that defines shinobi history not Kaguya. The fact that this theme was already established with Zabuza does not negate the fact that Kaguya also encapsulates this theme perfectly. In fact it does the opposite. It enhances that theme. And if you want any explicit evidence for this go reread the kaguya fight because all of what I just explained is explicitly stated at multiple points throughout that fight.

 

56 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That really depends. If you think one villain is more interesting than the other than you can conclude that it was a mistake for that other villain to have given focus. And if you give strong reasoning as to why that is then that should be something you're allowed to do. Sometimes a majority of the fanbase agrees an old villain is more impressive than the one that replaced him, sometimes a minority does it and I don't see the problem with that. If you think Pain's more interesting than Tobi and you can articulate why then that's all that matters. Shutting down the debate with the message that Kishi preferred Tobi is moot, because we already know he does. It doesn't mean you can't disagree. Yeah it was clear as day that Kishimoto vastly prefered Deidara over Sasori and any Sasori fan should have room to disagree with that. 

You don't have to agree with any decision a writer makes. If I think using the other villages as window dressings rather than true aspects of the world and I can explain why that is then I should be able to do that. If I found status quo hardliners standing against Naruto's own ninja way more interesting then destiny and I can explain why then I should be able to do it. Debates about the series would get a lot less interesting if we couldn't do that. 

Yeah but at the end of the day who’s the one writing this story? Oh that’s right NOT YOU! Kishimoto is the one writing this story so unless you are his editor you have zero say on what happens in this story. This is HIS story not your story. Why can’t you get that through your head. Your personal preferences don’t matter in regards to constructive narrative criticism. Because it’s just that personal preference which you are free to express and discuss but your personal preferences are not objective narrative flaws and it is pretentious and entitled to think otherwise 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah but at the end of the day who’s the one writing this story? Oh that’s right NOT YOU! Kishimoto is the one writing this story so unless you are his editor you have zero say on what happens in this story. This is HIS story not your story. Why can’t you get that through your head. Your personal preferences don’t matter in regards to constructive narrative criticism. Because it’s just that personal preference which you are free to express and discuss but your personal preferences are not objective narrative flaws and it is pretentious and entitled to think otherwise 

That changes nothing though. You don't convince me I'm wrong if all you do is saying its not my place to say it. And it would essentially curb any discussion aside from total agreement with the writer. In that world no one could point out the flaws in Game of Thrones final season, no one could prefer Cell over Frieza because the writer considers Frieza the more important one, and no one can find the Slitherers really boring because apparently IS didn't. 

It doesn't work like that. Almost no one thinks it should work like that. 

6 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

That still does not prove my claim false. The reason Kaguya works at all is because she exists outside the dualistic world of shinobi. Think about it, Madara wanted to neutralize the human paradox by becoming a god that rose above the dualistic nature of humanity. What is Kaguya? Oh that’s right a god that exists above the dualistic nature of humanity. Hmmmm it’s almost as if Kaguya is an extension of that idea. An extension of Madara’s goals and ideals as well as those of the shinobi world as a whole. She wanted to turn everyone into mindless white zetsu tools which is a perfect parallel to how shinobi are viewed as tools by the shinobi system but in this case it’s extremely literal

I don't agree with that though. Because what Madara wanted was to give people peace due to how misguided he is and with Kaguya that's not the case. She's not an extension of Madara's ideals but more the proof that Madara's ideas were a fantasy that wouldn't have worked anyway. And ultimately I can't conclude that any attempts to compare Zetsu's with ninja's to have been worth it when it requires the story that's been decades in the making to come to a halt, and then for some brand new character to walk into the plot that was just doing fine without her. She's a disruption and an outsider and even if I were to find comparisons between her Zetsu's and ninjas to be clever it would still have been a net negative. 

And I can't say she works because she exists outside the duality of the shinobi because my pain problem with her is that she's an entity that exists entirely outside the story. That she has no ties to anyone and any influence she has on the plot is only in a retrospective sense. So even if I were to consider it making a profound point then the cost of her being an outsider with no real business being there still wouldn't be worth it. 

But as I said I find Kaguya very uninteresting to talk about so I'll leave it at that. If the reason you find she works is also the exact reason I think she cannot work its unlikely we'll change each others mind anyway. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I see. Well, The Last is really good; it's definitely worth watching.

Technically, that episode with the Kakashi fanboy wasn't actually filler. The way the Boruto anime works is that the vast majority of the anime-only content is considered canon.

Yeah; the prevalence of the Otsutsuki in Boruto is rather annoying. As for the first chunin exams arc (I say "first" because the current arc of the anime is another chunin exams), yeah; I understand the exams no longer being as dangerous because it's now a time of peace, but you're right that there isn't as much suspense as there was in the OG Naruto chunin exams. I will just quickly point out that Inojin didn't fight the sand girl; Shikadai did (because of course he did). Inojin fought the puppet user.

I did hear a lot of good things about it. I'll probably end up checking it out when I rewatch the series again.

Ah yeah of course it was mask guy. I must admit I dropped the first Boruto chuunin exam midway through because I lost interest in that arc quickly. So I probably mixed one or two things up from reading the clifnotes.

And yeah filler might not be the best word. I think slice of life stuff might be more accurate? I like Boruto more for the silly/cutesy stories then for the grand plot. Though I am watching the second chuunin exam again.

Though now you mention Shikadai I also must say that I could't help, but not like his ascension to Chuunin all that much. It felt like it was retreading old ground with the same twist ending. Naruto made it perfectly clear why Shikamaru was the chuunin and that it was the correct answer. But now it looked like like it was the only  possible answer. 

So in summary I just really don't like that Chuunin exam😅

Edited by Sasori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That changes nothing though. You don't convince me I'm wrong if all you do is saying its not my place to say it. And it would essentially curb any discussion aside from total agreement with the writer. In that world no one could point out the flaws in Game of Thrones final season, no one could prefer Cell over Frieza because the writer considers Frieza the more important one, and no one can find the Slitherers really boring because apparently IS didn't. 

It doesn't work like that. Almost no one thinks it should work like that. 

There’s a massive difference being critical of a story and thinking a story should bend to your personal preference. You do not understand that difference as you have clearly shown

 

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't agree with that though. Because what Madara wanted was to give people peace due to how misguided he is and with Kaguya that's not the case. She's not an extension of Madara's ideals but more the proof that Madara's ideas were a fantasy that wouldn't have worked anyway. And ultimately I can't conclude that any attempts to compare Zetsu's with ninja's to have been worth it when it requires the story that's been decades in the making to come to a halt, and then for some brand new character to walk into the plot that was just doing fine without her. She's a disruption and an outsider and even if I were to find comparisons between her Zetsu's and ninjas to be clever it would still have been a net negative

Okay? Where is your evidence cause I do not see any. Give me quotes, examples from the text, etc. that prove that her being outsider to this plot is objectively bad writing like you seem to claim cause I can provide plenty of that information for my side of the argument. You can’t seem to though cause I have yet to see it. Therefore my argument is stronger. You end it like this and your argument looks weaker. 

Edited by Ottservia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Okay? Where is your evidence cause I do not see any. Give me quotes, examples from the text, etc. that prove that her being outsider to this plot is objectively bad writing like you seem to claim cause I can provide plenty of that information for my side of the argument. You can’t seem to though cause I have yet to see it. Therefore my argument is stronger. You end it like this and your argument looks weaker. 

I'm not quite sure what you want. I mean its not like Naruto would pause his fight with Sasuke to directly state that Kaguya isn't connected with anyone and had about zero foreshadowing. I could certainly point to Kaguya's reception to be overwhelmingly negative. I could point out the inherent logic about introducing a brand new villain in the literal final moments of the series with about zero foreshadowing being a bad idea. I could contrast her with Madara who both as Tobi and as himself did receive foreshadowing and thus functioned as a result. I could point out that Madara has connections to many mayor players and Kaguya to about none of them. I could say how Madara had a direct impact on Tobi and Onoki, or that Tobi is a villain the audience must have gotten quite attached towards. I could say you cannot have things akin to Onoki's character growth in reaction to Madara, or Tobirama's rivalry with Madara can't happen with Kaguya because no one knows of Kaguya, and Kaguya knows of no one. 

But all of those things are kind of self evident. Quite frankly I think the proof is on the other side to suggest as to why introducing a brand new villain at the last moment to replace the villain that people actually like is a good idea. I also don't really recall much proof. And I don't think that reinforcing themes that are already well established would be a good case for such a move. 

But these are my final words on the matter. And if you think that somehow makes your argument stronger then....okay. I'll have to make due with my opinion in this regard being kinda the norm. 

21 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

There’s a massive difference being critical of a story and thinking a story should bend to your personal preference. You do not understand that difference as you have clearly shown

No not really. Every single person who criticize a story thinks the story would be better if the story had addressed these points the way they felt it should have been addressed. If they claim otherwise they're probably not honest.

These are probably also my last words in this particular back and forth too since its clogging up my topic about a subject I don't find interesting, about things we'll probably never agree on and in a tone I don't find to be particularly entertaining. The back and forth I have with vanguard are more pleasant and these ones....aren't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

Yeah; the prevalence of the Otsutsuki in Boruto is rather annoying. As for the first chunin exams arc (I say "first" because the current arc of the anime is another chunin exams), yeah; I understand the exams no longer being as dangerous because it's now a time of peace, but you're right that there isn't as much suspense as there was in the OG Naruto chunin exams. I will just quickly point out that Inojin didn't fight the sand girl; Shikadai did (because of course he did). Inojin fought the puppet user.

Speaking of Inojin I look rather favorable on him. I think he's easily among the best of the new gen. He strikes a fine balance about being kinda rude but more entertaining and not really very malicious. He's sassy but not quite a diva like his mom could be or a jerk like his father could sometimes be. All in all he carries traits of both his parents in personality and design without being a copy of them. And that's not something everyone in that gen pulls off. Cough Shikadai! cough!

Him being so mouthy is also somewhat lessened by him seemingly being kinda delicate and insecure. Many episodes imply or state his self confidence is kinda low and that setbacks tend to weigh on him. So he comes off as all bark but almost zero bite which avoids his big mouth making him unlikable. 

The arc about an unwilling Inojin adopting a rock monster as a pet, getting attached to it and it then dying to protect him was also one of the more emotional moments in Boruto. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Sasori said:

Ah yeah of course it was mask guy. I must admit I dropped the first Boruto chunin exam midway through because I lost interest in that arc quickly. So I probably mixed one or two things up from reading the cliffnotes.

And yeah filler might not be the best word. I think slice of life stuff might be more accurate? I like Boruto more for the silly/cutesy stories then for the grand plot. Though I am watching the second chunin exam again.

Ah, I see. I stuck around for that arc mainly because it was the only arc where I found Boruto to be even remotely compelling as a protagonist. Before that point, the only Boruto arc that I thought had a compelling lead character was the Sarada arc.

 

32 minutes ago, Sasori said:

Though now you mention Shikadai I also must say that I couldn't help, but not like his ascension to Chuunin all that much. It felt like it was retreading old ground with the same twist ending. Naruto made it perfectly clear why Shikamaru was the chuunin and that it was the correct answer. But now it looked like like it was the only  possible answer. 

So in summary I just really don't like that Chuunin exam😅

You are far from alone. The Boruto fanbase is very divided on many things, but the one thing they can all agree upon is that it should've been Sarada that got promoted to chunin. But, the manga decided that Shikadai was the one made chunin, so the anime had to construct a bunch of justification for that bad decision.

 

Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

Speaking of Inojin I look rather favorable on him. I think he's easily among the best of the new gen. He strikes a fine balance about being kinda rude but more entertaining and not really very malicious. He's sassy but not quite a diva like his mom could be or a jerk like his father could sometimes be. All in all he carries traits of both his parents in personality and design without being a copy of them. And that's not something everyone in that gen pulls off. Cough Shikadai! cough!

Him being so mouthy is also somewhat lessened by him seemingly being kinda delicate and insecure. Many episodes imply or state his self confidence is kinda low and that setbacks tend to weigh on him. So he comes off as all bark but almost zero bite which avoids his big mouth making him unlikable. 

The arc about an unwilling Inojin adopting a rock monster as a pet, getting attached to it and it then dying to protect him was also one of the more emotional moments in Boruto. 

Yeah; Inojin is definitely one of the better characters among the new cast. He's definitely a really good 50/50 blend of his parents without being a copy. You summed him up well.

He isn't my favourite though; I'm not entirely sure who it would be, but probably either Sarada, Himawari, or Houki (the Kakashi fanboy that I like to refer to as Kakashi's Deku because of that).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But all of those things are kind of self evident. Quite frankly I think the proof is on the other side to suggest as to why introducing a brand new villain at the last moment to replace the villain that people actually like is a good idea. I also don't really recall much proof. And I don't think that reinforcing themes that are already well established would be a good case for such a move. 

And there you go with the arbritrary rules thing again. The problem here is that you are acting as if foreshadowing is some hard rule of writing when it’s not. Like who said writers need to foreshadow everything? They don’t because there are no hard rules in regards to writing and to think otherwise is simply close minded. Also no the burden of proof lies with you. Cause I’ve already proved why Kaguya is a good villain. I’ve already fulfilled my burden of proof but you haven’t. You disagree with my claim you have to put in the effort to disprove it. And Kaguya isn’t even my favorite villain in the series. That honor goes to Obito. 

Edited by Ottservia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone's overly optimistic assessment aside...

I'm probably of the minority opinion in that I really like Denki, and that I kinda suspect his rather large amount of detractors is due to the same attitudes that gives Ignatz, or in some cases even Deku a bad rep. I've never liked the phrase ''toxic masculinity'' but it probably applies. Or ''what measure is a non baddass'' as tvtropes would call it. He and the aforementioned boys are meek, sensitive and nerdy and I suspect most people don't look further than that. Though I admit that largely being a non combatant in a shonen is somewhat of a weakness. 

But Denki's actually a really useful character. We were coming right after a movie where its drilled into our heads what a flawed guy Boruto is, and we're already conditioned to take Naruto's side since we already like Naruto. So Boruto's first action in the anime being to save Denki from bullies, and then taking him under his wings for the next arc is a very effective, very immediate depiction of Boruto's better side at a time where that was really needed. And he's just nice. Really, really, really nice. Spineless most of the time, but nice. Had he been a girl the word ''moe'' might have been used. 

And as it turns out the anime might be giving him time to shine and make him less of a weakling. As it stands he should be either doing really well or winning against one of the stronger students.  

Quote

You are far from alone. The Boruto fanbase is very divided on many things, but the one thing they can all agree upon is that it should've been Sarada that got promoted to chunin. But, the manga decided that Shikadai was the one made chunin, so the anime had to construct a bunch of justification for that bad decision.

I think the biggest problem with Shikadai's promotion is that he's already way to similar to his father. Same design, same powers and aside from being a bit more social a very similar personality. And then he fights a sand girl at the exam and gets a promotion just like his dad. I think reducing the comparisons to his father rather than reinforcing those comparisons would have been the way to go. 

The anime having Sasuke shoot down Sarada's promotion also didn't entirely feel right since she was the best performing genin of the Leaf, and her Gilbert of a dad torpedoing her promotion doesn't help his fatherly credentials very much. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there’s one thing I love about Naruto as a story is it’s exploration of themes about finding hope in a world full of nothing but despair. The shinobi world is a world of nothing but endless conflict and I love how Kishimoto portrays war in this story in that everyone is a victim of this endless cycle. Like the whole point of the land of waves and chunin exams is that Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke are actual child soldiers meant to die for their nation. Like the shinobi world is a really fucked up place and how different characters respond to this despair is interesting to see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Someone's overly optimistic assessment aside...

I'm probably of the minority opinion in that I really like Denki, and that I kinda suspect his rather large amount of detractors is due to the same attitudes that gives Ignatz, or in some cases even Deku a bad rep. I've never liked the phrase ''toxic masculinity'' but it probably applies. Or ''what measure is a non baddass'' as tvtropes would call it. He and the aforementioned boys are meek, sensitive and nerdy and I suspect most people don't look further than that. Though I admit that largely being a non combatant in a shonen is somewhat of a weakness. 

But Denki's actually a really useful character. We were coming right after a movie where its drilled into our heads what a flawed guy Boruto is, and we're already conditioned to take Naruto's side since we already like Naruto. So Boruto's first action in the anime being to save Denki from bullies, and then taking him under his wings for the next arc is a very effective, very immediate depiction of Boruto's better side at a time where that was really needed. And he's just nice. Really, really, really nice. Spineless most of the time, but nice. Had he been a girl the word ''moe'' might have been used. 

And as it turns out the anime might be giving him time to shine and make him less of a weakling. As it stands he should be either doing really well or winning against one of the stronger students.  

Denki's definitely a neat character. He just had the misfortune of ending up on the comic relief team, so he rarely gets a chance to shine as the one person on his team with cognitive faculties (no offense to Iwabe and Metal Lee), not to mention him a shinobi with tech skills in the more modern shinobi world of Boruto is seriously underutilized.

Yeah; him using a self-made scientific ninja tool to go toe-to-toe with the samurai girl will definitely be cool to watch. Still, it would've been nice to see him demonstrate other tech-based achievements such as hacking skills, instead of half his team's on-screen appearances being about trading cards.

 

@Etrurian emperor

Quote

I think the biggest problem with Shikadai's promotion is that he's already way to similar to his father. Same design, same powers and aside from being a bit more social a very similar personality. And then he fights a sand girl at the exam and gets a promotion just like his dad. I think reducing the comparisons to his father rather than reinforcing those comparisons would have been the way to go. 

The anime having Sasuke shoot down Sarada's promotion also didn't entirely feel right since she was the best performing genin of the Leaf, and her Gilbert of a dad torpedoing her promotion doesn't help his fatherly credentials very much. 

Yeah; he is already extremely similar to his father, so making him chunin was too much. I honestly didn't mind him fighting a sand girl at the chunin exam; honestly, I think it would've been hilarious if his parents teased him about it afterwards; something like this that I came up with as a joke:

Spoiler

Shikadai's parents congratulate him after the match. Temari grins.
Temari: So, Shikadai; when's the wedding?
Temari laughs, but Shikadai just looks confused.
Shikimaru: Did we never tell you, son? The Chunin Exams were how your mother and I met!
Shikadai looks back at Yodo.
Shikadai (thinks to himself): What a drag...

I agree about the anime, but the writers did have no choice but to find a way to justify it since the manga had already decided that Shikadai was made chunin. I will say that the reason they came up with for it not being Sarada: that she and Boruto had just gotten in trouble for leaving the village on their own to find Mitsuki, was a decent reason. But it still should've been Sarada.

Edited by vanguard333

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best things I can say about Kaguya is:

  • She's used as a explanation for the source of chakra, which I really don't think anyone was actually dying to learn about
  • She was used as a segue to Boruto, which... again, I don't think anybody really expected/wanted

Those are the most charitable things I'll say about her. Godawful choice to introduce her after about 20 chapters of the first hints of her, and an even worse choice to completely fridge the guy who's been built up as the main villain for the last 400 chapters.

I also hate how Boruto handles OG Naruto characters, so I was not a fan of Kishimoto just introducing a sequel hook less than 40 chapters before the end of the series.

She's the sole reason I actually think Naruto had a worse ending than Bleach, and possibly the worst ending of any major shonen in recent memory. The only one I've heard comes close is Food Wars, but I didn't read/watch that.

If the series just ended with Sasuke and Naruto getting Sage powers and beating Madara, it would have been infinitely better. I've seen so many people say "Well Madara was too strong so Kishimoto had to fridge him", as if Kaguya isn't more busted.

Edited by Slumber

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not quite sure what to think of Orochimaru being a goofball who makes wedding videos, flees from bugs, goes to PTA meetings and gets all annoyed when signing trading cards with his image on it.

On some level its kinda vandalizing the villain who was so effective because he was so completely creepy and imposing. 

On the other hand its also fun. Orochimaru of all people being a big goofball is funny. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm not quite sure what to think of Orochimaru being a goofball who makes wedding videos, flees from bugs, goes to PTA meetings and gets all annoyed when signing trading cards with his image on it.

On some level its kinda vandalizing the villain who was so effective because he was so completely creepy and imposing. 

On the other hand its also fun. Orochimaru of all people being a big goofball is funny. 

To be fair, he did get a moment to be creepy and imposing again when he helped Konohamaru fight a one-legged old businessman.

And, as you said, it is fun seeing Orochimaru put his autograph on a card, and take part in wedding videos for Naruto and Hinata's wedding. The most fun of course is from seeing him be a doting parent to Mitsuki (and it's also rather heartwarming).

 

10 hours ago, Slumber said:

The best things I can say about Kaguya is:

  • She's used as a explanation for the source of chakra, which I really don't think anyone was actually dying to learn about
  • She was used as a segue to Boruto, which... again, I don't think anybody really expected/wanted

Those are the most charitable things I'll say about her. Godawful choice to introduce her after about 20 chapters of the first hints of her, and an even worse choice to completely fridge the guy who's been built up as the main villain for the last 400 chapters.

I also hate how Boruto handles OG Naruto characters, so I was not a fan of Kishimoto just introducing a sequel hook less than 40 chapters before the end of the series.

She's the sole reason I actually think Naruto had a worse ending than Bleach, and possibly the worst ending of any major shonen in recent memory. The only one I've heard comes close is Food Wars, but I didn't read/watch that.

If the series just ended with Sasuke and Naruto getting Sage powers and beating Madara, it would have been infinitely better. I've seen so many people say "Well Madara was too strong so Kishimoto had to fridge him", as if Kaguya isn't more busted.

You have a good point, though I would just disagree about the series having a bad ending because of Kaguya, since Kaguya was not the ending of the series; the real ending after all was Naruto vs Sasuke, and that at least was handled very well. And, since the Naruto anime adapted some of the canon light novels that take place after Naruto vs Sasuke, the ending of the anime was Naruto and Hinata's wedding. But that's beside the point.

As for that statement about Madara, I think the problem that they're highlighting is that Madara was a Boring Invincible Villain: he just shrugged off everything that the heroes threw at him, leaving not much way to really defeat him without it being contrived. Kaguya, as "busted" as she was, had a clear weakness: complete lack of skill, and had been written with a built-in way of defeating of her: sealing her away as the Sage of Six Paths and his brother had done centuries before. I don't think that was the reason for writing in Kaguya of course, but I get why people thought that might've been the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

To be fair, he did get a moment to be creepy and imposing again when he helped Konohamaru fight a one-legged old businessman.

And, as you said, it is fun seeing Orochimaru put his autograph on a card, and take part in wedding videos for Naruto and Hinata's wedding. The most fun of course is from seeing him be a doting parent to Mitsuki (and it's also rather heartwarming).

 

You have a good point, though I would just disagree about the series having a bad ending because of Kaguya, since Kaguya was not the ending of the series; the real ending after all was Naruto vs Sasuke, and that at least was handled very well. And, since the Naruto anime adapted some of the canon light novels that take place after Naruto vs Sasuke, the ending of the anime was Naruto and Hinata's wedding. But that's beside the point.

As for that statement about Madara, I think the problem that they're highlighting is that Madara was a Boring Invincible Villain: he just shrugged off everything that the heroes threw at him, leaving not much way to really defeat him without it being contrived. Kaguya, as "busted" as she was, had a clear weakness: complete lack of skill, and had been written with a built-in way of defeating of her: sealing her away as the Sage of Six Paths and his brother had done centuries before. I don't think that was the reason for writing in Kaguya of course, but I get why people thought that might've been the case.

I mean Madara also had a weakness though and that’s exactly how he was defeated. Like does no one remember his back? And how he couldn’t trust anyone to stand behind him except for Hashirama who took advantage of that weakness to literally stab him in the back. Seriously the way Madara went down was foreshadowed ever since those flashback chapters. And it’s not even that subtle either. It’s explicitly stated multiple times that Madara’s weakness was that he couldn’t trust anyone to watch his back and two people he let that shield down for ended up betraying that trust in the end. It’s not contrived at all at least in the way you’re defining it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean Madara also had a weakness though and that’s exactly how he was defeated. Like does no one remember his back? And how he couldn’t trust anyone to stand behind him except for Hashirama who took advantage of that weakness to literally stab him in the back. Seriously the way Madara went down was foreshadowed ever since those flashback chapters. And it’s not even that subtle either. It’s explicitly stated multiple times that Madara’s weakness was that he couldn’t trust anyone to watch his back and two people he let that shield down for ended up betraying that trust in the end. It’s not contrived at all at least in the way you’re defining it

So it was a weakness that the heroes couldn't use to win. That was my point; his one weakness was something only Black Zetsu could utilize, not something any of the heroes could use to defeat him.

By the way, what did you think of the rest of what I said that you quoted?

 

Anyway, did anyone else see the latest episode of Boruto? I was really enjoying the 2nd Chunin Exams arc up until now, but the way they chose to end it was possibly one of the dumbest ways they could've chosen to do so:

Spoiler

The episode opens with Boruto and Mitsuki showing up just too late and getting disqualified and then basically brushes it under the rug for the rest of the episode. I have several thousand problems with this, but I'll just list a few:

1. The only importance of Amado's kidnapping was to have Boruto and Mitsuki show up late and get disqualified; that's it. So, they had a bunch of shinobi from another village manage to get into the leaf village through the front gate without any alarms going off and succeed in abducting Amado without anyone noticing except a couple kids who happened to be there, already a very contrived scenario that means the village isn't keeping nearly a close enough eye on him for some unstated reason, and nothing comes of this except Boruto and Mitsuki turning up late for the Chunin Exams. Boruto and Mitsuki don't even tell Naruto about what happened; they don't speak to him or Konohamaru at all for the entire episode.

2. "We can't make any exceptions" Naruto; you were once at a chunin exam where an exception was made: Sasuke showed up far later than Boruto and Mitsuki did and yet he was allowed to compete.

3. There were a million different things that could've come from having Boruto and Mitsuki duel; a ton of avenues for storytelling, and in choosing this, they chose to do nothing. That is just an empty subversion, and I'm sick and tired of writers throwing away good story for the sake of an empty surprise. You set up Boruto vs Mitsuki; you made the audience get invested, and now you're essentially laughing at them for having gotten invested. I don't know the intent of the writers, but in choosing this, this is what they've done, regardless of their intent. All that buildup for nothing.

4. No one seems to care afterwards. Sarada is upset at them, but that's just played for laughs. You'd think that Konohamaru or Naruto would want to talk to them afterwards about why they're late, but nope; nothing. Even Boruto and Mitsuki, who just five episodes ago expressed serious desire to become chunin, just shrug it off. The only person to express any real disappointment, besides the audience obviously, is Shinki.

5. The very end of the episode has the gall to tease the idea of Boruto vs Mitsuki by having it show them preparing to duel in private even after the exam's over. A bit cheap, but it means they could still use at least some of those potential story avenues they tossed aside earlier on, right? Nope; the preview for the next episode showed that they aren't going to show Boruto vs Mitsuki at all; they're going to cut straight away to a new story in which Konohamaru gets beaten to a pulp for the millionth time on this show. Who was the writer that thought that that's what the audience wants to see?

I liked the Denki vs Tsubaki fight, but that was basically the only thing I liked about this episode. And that's a shame, as I was really enjoying this arc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really pleased with this episode depiction of Denki. From a wimpy doormat who was practically a non combatant to a powerhouse in his own right. Him not completely owing his victory to his suit but finally showing that he can actually fight on his own was also a nice touch. Its also a nice bit of character building with Denki seemingly very determined to shed his status as the weakest link, his opponent still underestimating him, and his teammates both having complete faith in him and being very happy when he wins. Its a good way of showing both from where Denki started up to how he has grown. 

Though its not very surprising. The arc was already setting up Denki's big win from the beginning. I don't think Boruto talking him into going into the exams with more confidence and Denki finally being confident could have ended any other way. 

But I kinda hate the excuse for why Boruto and Mitsuki were too late. I'm fine with them missing the tournament due to a little subplot provided the plot was actually interesting. But because the kidnapping subplot doesn't have much time devoted to it, and because the kidnappers are just generic mooks it can't be interesting. Even worse is that there's zero suspense. Amado's fine. He's totally chill and when things turn hostile they even make it a point he has a ninja tool snuck in his pants. So the boys kinda missed their tournament for nothing. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I'm really pleased with this episode depiction of Denki. From a wimpy doormat who was practically a non combatant to a powerhouse in his own right. Him not completely owing his victory to his suit but finally showing that he can actually fight on his own was also a nice touch. Its also a nice bit of character building with Denki seemingly very determined to shed his status as the weakest link, his opponent still underestimating him, and his teammates both having complete faith in him and being very happy when he wins. Its a good way of showing both from where Denki started up to how he has grown. 

Though its not very surprising. The arc was already setting up Denki's big win from the beginning. I don't think Boruto talking him into going into the exams with more confidence and Denki finally being confident could have ended any other way. 

But I kinda hate the excuse for why Boruto and Mitsuki were too late. I'm fine with them missing the tournament due to a little subplot provided the plot was actually interesting. But because the kidnapping subplot doesn't have much time devoted to it, and because the kidnappers are just generic mooks it can't be interesting. Even worse is that there's zero suspense. Amado's fine. He's totally chill and when things turn hostile they even make it a point he has a ninja tool snuck in his pants. So the boys kinda missed their tournament for nothing. 

Yeah; I liked that they did that for Denki; it showed that he doesn't have to rely on the tools. The fall of Kara was that they depended on their tools and fell apart once the weaknesses of those tools were discovered.

Yeah; I really disliked that as well for about a thousand reasons; five of which I put in the spoilers tag, and you gave reason number six and seven: the subplot resulting in their disqualification wasn't interesting and it didn't amount to anything else, and it could've easily been averted since Amado had means of self-defense.

Ending the arc on Boruto and Mitsuki getting disqualified was just a really dumb decision. But hey; on the plus side, next week, we can look forward to seeing Konohamaru be a punching bag for the thousandth time; that should be interesting (sarcasm).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

So it was a weakness that the heroes couldn't use to win. That was my point; his one weakness was something only Black Zetsu could utilize, not something any of the heroes could use to defeat him.

Yeah but that’s exactly why it works. The story even calls attention to this when Sasuke tries to sneak up on him and fails and Madara states 

“In order to protect something… something else needs to be sacrificed. Be they friend, brother, or even my very old child. I gave you plenty of time…” 

which is supposed to echo what Hashirama said to him when he stabbed him in the back. It’s supposed to highlight Madara’s point in regards to the human paradox and hypocritical nature of Hashirama’s so called “peace”. Cause all things considered Sasuke should have been able to sneak up on him. He’s an Uchiha that looks like Madara’s younger brother but he can’t because Madara is willing to sacrifice his own Uchiha child for the sake of his goal much like how Hashirama sacrificed him. It’s hypocritical but that’s his point in that hypocrisy is inevitable in this contradictory shinobi world full of duality. Madara wanted to rise above that hypocrisy and neutralize the human paradox with the infinite tsukuyomi but in doing so he contradicts himself which is punctuated perfectly by black zetsu literally stabbing him in the back. The symbolism there is two fold.

1. It shows Madara can’t even trust himself to watch his own back because he thought black zetsu was his own will. The only thing he could trust was himself but this symbolically shows he can’t even do that which only serves to highlight his own hypocrisy.

2. It shows Madara could never become the god he strove to be because he was only human with human flaws. Madara wanted to rise above the dualistic nature of humanity but in not respecting his humanity he fell into the same contradictions as Obito. In not respecting his humanity and treating others as tools to his ends. He himself was manipulated as a tool by someone greater. Someone who existed outside the contradictory world of shinobi. As I stated earlier, Kaguya is the god Madara strove to become. He viewed others as nothing more than tools to his end and was manipulated by someone who felt no differently. Like I keep saying Kaguya represents the extremes of Madara’s ideals as well as the shinobi world as a whole. She has no heart. She has no contradictions because ultimately she is not human. She is the perfect shinobi. The perfect tool ready and willing to discard anything for the sake of her goals even turn others into tools by absorbing their chakra. Once again it serves to highlight Madara’s own hypocrisy.

It just makes sense from a thematic perspective for Madara to go out this way. He thought he could rise above his own humanity but he never could. Him going out this way only serves to highlight that fact. Madara could not have been defeated in any other way.

39 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

By the way, what did you think of the rest of what I said that you quoted?

That depends what do you think about all my Kaguya analysis that I’ve posted in this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...