The official Naruto thread

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Ottservia said:

That depends what do you think about all my Kaguya analysis that I’ve posted in this thread.

I was more referring to the fact that you also quoted what I said about Orochimaru as well as what I said about how Kaguya wasn't the true finale; Naruto vs Sasuke was the true finale (unless you're watching the anime, in which case Naruto and Hinata's wedding is the true finale), so I was wondering what you thought of those things.

[Etrurian emperor]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Ending the arc on Boruto and Mitsuki getting disqualified was just a really dumb decision. But hey; on the plus side, next week, we can look forward to seeing Konohamaru be a punching bag for the thousandth time; that should be interesting (sarcasm).

I suspect the writers had a bit of a crisis when it came to Konohamaru. He's easily the most logical choice as Boruto's teachers but the writers also don't seem to care about him at all. They didn't think they could get away with not making him Boruto's teacher but also didn't want to give him something to do.

The worst of both world. They gave Konohamaru a position they didn't want him to have because they couldn't get around it, and because they don't care about him they make sure he's conveniently absent or defeated whenever something important needs to happen.

Or that's my suspicion. Because I can't imagine that this Konohamaru was written by someone who likes Konohamaru or even by someone who has ideas on how to use Konohamaru.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Ottservia]

3 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I was more referring to the fact that you also quoted what I said about Orochimaru as well as what I said about how Kaguya wasn't the true finale; Naruto vs Sasuke was the true finale (unless you're watching the anime, in which case Naruto and Hinata's wedding is the true finale), so I was wondering what you thought of those things.

I mean you still have yet to respond to any of the points I made about Kaguya so even the ones I directly quoted you for and quite frankly I find it a tad rude you’re asking for a response on something I quoted when you still haven’t given a proper response to what I said to something I directly quoted you for.

That aside, I do agree with what you were saying about Naruto vs Sasuke being handled well and being the true ending because it was the true ending to the series. The only part I disagree with is the idea stuff was bad because it wasn’t for reasons I’ve already stated. On Orochimaru, I also agree that it’s just funny to see such an intimidating antagonist be put in those scenarios.

[vanguard333]

8 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I suspect the writers had a bit of a crisis when it came to Konohamaru. He's easily the most logical choice as Boruto's teachers but the writers also don't seem to care about him at all. They didn't think they could get away with not making him Boruto's teacher but also didn't want to give him something to do.

The worst of both world. They gave Konohamaru a position they didn't want him to have because they couldn't get around it, and because they don't care about him they make sure he's conveniently absent or defeated whenever something important needs to happen.

Yeah; I suspect that it's mostly the manga's doing, but the anime really isn't helping. He hasn't gotten a single significant win against anything that wasn't a random bandit or a dying white zetsu. This is a guy who defeated one of the Pains when he was a kid.

I think the main reason is that the manga has an almost-obsession with giving as many wins as it can to Boruto. Outside of Naruto vs Delta and Kawaki vs Isshiki, when was the last time someone other than Boruto actually won an important fight in the manga (and Momoshiki vs Boro doesn't count)? The Ao fight could've easily been given to Konohamaru, and it would've made his defeat at the hands of Koji actually somewhat shocking instead of the usual, and it would've been Konohamaru that actually would've had a dilemma about sparing vs killing Ao since Mugino was his friend, but the manga chose to give the fight to Boruto as it always did.

 

Just now, Ottservia said:

I mean you still have yet to respond to any of the points I made about Kaguya so even the ones I directly quoted you for and quite frankly I find it a tad rude you’re asking for a response on something I quoted when you still haven’t given a proper response to what I said to something I directly quoted you for.

That aside, I do agree with what you were saying about Naruto vs Sasuke being handled well and being the true ending because it was the true ending to the series. The only part I disagree with is the idea stuff was bad because it wasn’t for reasons I’ve already stated. On Orochimaru, I also agree that it’s just funny to see such an intimidating antagonist be put in those scenarios.

Forgive me for not responding to it right away; I didn't want to risk getting into another heated argument, I wanted to clarify what I was asking about, and I'm running back and forth to check the progress of Metroid Prime Trilogy being installed on my Wii U, so I can't really make huge replies without it taking a while.

In regards to what you said, I get the symbolism; I was just wanting to explain why I think a lot of fans feel, as the person I was responding to put it, "I've seen so many people say 'Well Madara was too strong so Kishimoto had to fridge him', as if Kaguya isn't more busted." People feel that way because Madara was established as someone the heroes could not beat while Kaguya was established as someone they could beat. That was my whole point. I wasn't saying that I agree with those fans; I was just saying that I think I understand what they're getting at. I never said that his one weakness being something that the heroes could defeat was contrived; I was stating that there was no way for the heroes to beat Madara without that victory being contrived.

In short, I didn't say that what did happen was contrived, but that a scenario of the heroes beating Madara would've been contrived due to how he was written, and I was saying this just to explain how Kaguya, despite being more powerful, was written in such a way that the heroes could beat her without it being contrived. Does that make sense?

 

I see. Thanks for answering. Naruto vs Sasuke was definitely the true finale, though I did like the post-finale episodes that were adapted from light novels; ending the anime on Naruto and Hinata's wedding was definitely a good choice. And yeah; it is hilarious seeing Orochimaru in those scenarios.

[Ottservia]

8 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Forgive me for not responding to it right away; I didn't want to risk getting into another heated argument, I wanted to clarify what I was asking about, and I'm running back and forth to check the progress of Metroid Prime Trilogy being installed on my Wii U, so I can't really make huge replies without it taking a while.

 

I get it man. Life is like that. And it wasn’t like I was expecting a response right away. I just wanted a response at all. Also forgive my bluntness there. I know life is hectic and I get where you’re coming from. It’s just a little irritating to see a response and it not acknowledge the main point of my post. You get me?

11 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

In regards to what you said, I get the symbolism; I was just wanting to explain why I think a lot of fans feel, as the person I was responding to put it, "I've seen so many people say 'Well Madara was too strong so Kishimoto had to fridge him', as if Kaguya isn't more busted." People feel that way because Madara was established as someone the heroes could not beat while Kaguya was established as someone they could beat. That was my whole point. I wasn't saying that I agree with those fans; I was just saying that I think I understand what they're getting at. I never said that his one weakness being something that the heroes could defeat was contrived; I was stating that there was no way for the heroes to beat Madara without that victory being contrived.

In short, I didn't say that what did happen was contrived, but that a scenario of the heroes beating Madara would've been contrived due to how he was written, and I was saying this just to explain how Kaguya, despite being more powerful, was written in such a way that the heroes could beat her without it being contrived. Does that make sense?

Yeah I get what you mean. And it’s not like I don’t understand why most people have misgivings about Kaguya. I used to be the same way. It’s just after rereading Naruto recently and getting a better understanding of the story as a whole I can’t help but feel those complaints are misplaced. It’s not like I don’t understand where those complaints are coming from I just don’t like the way people act as if those complaints of actual narrative faults of the series because they’re not. Or to put it another way I don’t like it when people call it bad writing when it’s not. Because for it to be bad writing it would have to be inconsistent with things the stor had already established which it isn’t in fact it fits perfectly for what message the story is trying to convey as I have clearly demonstrated.
 

I have zero issue with people having and voicing those complaints because that’s just how personal preference works. If you don’t like something then you don’t like something. That’s just how it is and I can’t change your mind. Again it’s just a matter of personal taste. What I do have an issue with is claiming something is bad writing simply because it didn’t fit your personal preferences. Cause that’s not how that works. Like how hard is it to simply say you didn’t like something and move on? Why do you gotta justify it by saying it’s bad writing when clearly is not. Like it’s fine to not like Kaguya for whatever reason you have but to say she doesn’t add anything to this story or that she is detrimental to it is simply incorrect cause she does belong in this story and adds to the themes in a way that would otherwise be incomplete had she been removed from the narrative. Like I don’t care much for Kaguya either but that shouldn’t limit my ability to meet this story on its own terms and figure out what is trying to say with these narrative decisions regardless of whether I personally liked them or not.

[vanguard333]

20 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I get it man. Life is like that. And it wasn’t like I was expecting a response right away. I just wanted a response at all. Also forgive my bluntness there. I know life is hectic and I get where you’re coming from. It’s just a little irritating to see a response and it not acknowledge the main point of my post. You get me?

Thanks. The irony is that it finished downloading and installing, and now I can't find any of my Wii remotes.

Anyway, thanks also for understanding that I was just trying to explain something and not necessarily criticize it.

[Sasori]

I'd like to say that Konohamaru being captured is all just part of a test. Sarada is a chuunin now and this is just so Konohamaru can see her leadership skills. Thats what I like to say, but Konohamaru played jobber so many times that this might be just him being captured.

Kakashi was also often used to hype up his opponents, but he rarely came across as a jobber.

[vanguard333]

7 minutes ago, Sasori said:

I'd like to say that Konohamaru being captured is all just part of a test. Sarada is a chuunin now and this is just so Konohamaru can see her leadership skills. Thats what I like to say, but Konohamaru played jobber so many times that this might be just him being captured.

Kakashi was also often used to hype up his opponents, but he rarely came across as a jobber.

Yeah; it would be nice if it's just a test, but it likely isn't.

There are multiple reasons for that. The first would be that the very first main arc (Land of Waves) established Kakashi's abilities and reputation by having him singlehandedly win twice against a feared opponent that the students stood no chance against (Zabuza), whereas Konohamaru never got any establishing victory on nearly this scale. Then, when enemies like Itachi came along that could soundly beat Kakashi, it was actually impressive and, perhaps more importantly, the villains that beat Kakashi were actually impressed by him: Itachi is impressed that Kakashi survived the Tsukyomi torture, Pain is wary around Kakashi's corpse in case it's a trick, etc. The enemies that defeat Konohamaru never show any such respect; the worst case of this was Koji mocking Konohamaru and saying that the title of jonin clearly doesn't mean much.

But perhaps most importantly, villains outright wiping the floor with Kakashi was done very sparingly; more often what would happen would be Kakashi assisting in beating the antagonist and making a meaningful contribution without making the victory any less Naruto's. The best example of this would probably be Kakashi using Kamui to vacuum Sasori's arm off; enabling Naruto to close the gap against Sasori. Konohamaru never gets any such contribution.

[Etrurian emperor]

I originally thought Amando's kidnapping was supposed to be a test. ''Those who abandon their comrades are worse than trash'' and all that. The boys being awarded a promotion because they knew that doing the right thing would make them miss their promotion and yet doing the right thing anyway. But nope. 

 

[vanguard333]

21 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I originally thought Amado's kidnapping was supposed to be a test. ''Those who abandon their comrades are worse than trash'' and all that. The boys being awarded a promotion because they knew that doing the right thing would make them miss their promotion and yet doing the right thing anyway. But nope. 

That would've been an interesting twist, though there would've needed to be an explanation for why only Boruto and Mitsuki were being tested, as no one alerted any of the other genin about Amado's kidnapping.

There were so many ways they could've written it, and they went with one that does nothing for the story or characters. Why did they do that?

 

Anyway, one thing I recently noticed was that the most recent episode of Boruto seems to have caused some people to ship Tsubaki and Denki. Hardly surprising; almost any scene where two characters interact for more than a second will cause some people to start shipping those two characters. But it got me thinking about the romance in the Naruto series and how it was handled, so I thought I'd discuss that:

From my admittedly limited perspective, romance subplots have never almost never a strong point of battle shonen, and that's perfectly fine; it's not exactly a major focus, and I honestly think that the vast majority of romance subplots in any genre are usually garbage. In the case of Naruto, Kishimoto even outright stated that he feels uncomfortable writing romance, so he never planned on showing characters actually getting together; his plan was to show enough for two characters getting together to be plausible and then have the epilogue chapter show them already together. So, with all that in mind, what did I think of the romance in Naruto?

Honestly, it surprisingly has a lot of strengths. Shikamaru and Temari probably got the most focus in the manga, and there really isn't much to say there: their interactions are good, there's enough setup for it without it overstaying its welcome, and Shikamaru Hiden: the light novel where the two of them actually get together (and where Ino and Sai get together) is pretty good. Naruto and Hinata also have good chemistry and meaningful interactions, and for those two, there is actually a lot that I could say there, but I'll keep it short. It's interesting how the two of them grow to depend on each other for their emotional well-being, it's fairly well setup thanks to the Chunin Exams arc and the Invasion of Pain arc, it's fitting that, in a story about Naruto gaining the acceptance of the village that originally hated him, the person he ends up with is the person that already loved him, and The Last: Naruto the Movie was really good.

Looking back, even Sakura and Sasuke, as a concept, has some interesting things about it: Sakura going from having an empty, shallow crush on him to developing real feelings for him after getting to know him is a neat idea, and, in retrospect, the scene where she pleads for him to stay in the village and he actually considers it before deciding to knock her unconscious and leave is actually an interesting character moment for both of them; it's really the execution where their dynamic leaves a lot to be desired. One problem I have with it is that I don't think there were really enough moments of her actually getting to know him in part 1 for there to have been a noticeable change in how she felt; there weren't any moments late in part 1 before Sasuke leaves where she said or did something that she wouldn't have if she still only had the shallow crush. Another problem that I have with it is that her shallow crush on Sasuke is really overbearing, and I don't just mean that in the sense that it was annoying; I mean that it's overbearing from a writing perspective as well: it easily overshadowed other aspects of her character in part 1.

Of course, these problems were compounded on and exacerbated by what is probably by far the biggest problem with the romance in the series: the love triangles in part 1 of Naruto. Now, I am a bit biased in that I have never once encountered a well-written love triangle outside of something like Twelfth Night where it's played entirely for absurd comedy, and it's to the point where I sometimes honestly think the concept is fundamentally flawed from a writing perspective. But I honestly think that the love triangles in part 1 were ultimately a waste of time that had pretty much no upside, and that the series would've been better off without them.

Interestingly, I'm not alone in thinking that the Naruto series would've been better off without the love triangle stuff; one person who also thinks that is Kishimoto himself. Apparently, in an interview in 2017, Kishomoto expressed regret writing, "the messy love triangle" between Hinata/Naruto/Sakura, going on to say that Naruto's shallow crush on Sakura was never meant to be anything more than a red herring meant for lighthearted trolling; Naruto ending up with Hinata was the plan from the beginning.

Edited November 30, 2021 by vanguard333

[Etrurian emperor]

On 11/30/2021 at 2:55 AM, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, one thing I recently noticed was that the most recent episode of Boruto seems to have caused some people to ship Tsubaki and Denki. Hardly surprising; almost any scene where two characters interact for more than a second will cause some people to start shipping those two characters. But it got me thinking about the romance in the Naruto series and how it was handled, so I thought I'd discuss that:

I can see it. Whenever their teams interact Tsubaki usually chats with Denki. This latest episode she was also clearly impressed with him despite looking down on the kid before. Thematically its fitting. The techno boy and the overly traditional girl make a decent contrast, as does his low esteem and her haughty confidence.  Aesthetically they're also a good fit because they're both kinda like midgets. Denki's peculiarly small, standing about a head shorter than even the smaller boys of the cast. And weirdly enough Tsubaki's even shorter than he is.

While Naruto's romance isn't quite on the level of Toriyama who claims he's got no talent for writing romance and thus skips the romance entirely its clear that romance is neither a big focus nor a strength of Naruto. Its very much in the background and I can respect that. Its all passable enough.

Though I must admit that I don't think Hinata being Naruto's love interest was entirely planned from the start. I think them ending up together has a lot to do with Hinata exploding in popularity. They certainly make a good fit but Hinata was mostly a background character in the plot. A favorite for fillers but she and her relation with Naruto only really went to prominence in the Pain arc at which it was already clear the fanbase deemed her the prefered lady for Naruto. Not that I object. I think she's legitimately the best fit for him and its nice to see her grow from an overly shy girl to a woman who essentially reached all her goals and got a lot more confident as a result. Hinata's probably also the most interesting of the genins. Due to her underdog status and lack of confidence she had the most potential for character growth. One of the few fillers I can claim to like is the one where Hinata seems to fall into her kinda inevidable role as damsel in distress, only for it to become clear that she's the one who'll be saving Naruto and the others. 

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I can see it. Whenever their teams interact Tsubaki usually chats with Denki. This latest episode she was also clearly impressed with him despite looking down on the kid before. Thematically its fitting. The techno boy and the overly traditional girl make a decent contrast, as does his low esteem and her haughty confidence.  Aesthetically they're also a good fit because they're both kinda like midgets. Denki's peculiarly small, standing about a head shorter than even the smaller boys of the cast. And weirdly enough Tsubaki's even shorter than he is.

While Naruto's romance isn't quite on the level of Toriyama who claims he's got no talent for writing romance and thus skips the romance entirely its clear that romance is neither a big focus nor a strength of Naruto. Its very much in the background and I can respect that. Its all passable enough.

Though I must admit that I don't think Hinata being Naruto's love interest was entirely planned from the start. I think them ending up together has a lot to do with Hinata exploding in popularity. They certainly make a good fit but Hinata was mostly a background character in the plot. A favorite for fillers but she and her relation with Naruto only really went to prominence in the Pain arc at which it was already clear the fanbase deemed her the preferred lady for Naruto. Not that I object. I think she's legitimately the best fit for him and its nice to see her grow from an overly shy girl to a woman who essentially reached all her goals and got a lot more confident as a result. Hinata's probably also the most interesting of the genins. Due to her underdog status and lack of confidence she had the most potential for character growth. One of the few fillers I can claim to like is the one where Hinata seems to fall into her kinda inevitable role as damsel in distress, only for it to become clear that she's the one who'll be saving Naruto and the others. 

I can see it as well. In retrospect, I probably should've mentioned that, as it does unintentionally sound like I'm dismissing the idea; doesn't it?

Who's Toriyama? Anyway, I can agree about that: the romance is not a major focus and it's usually in the background.

Well, Kishimoto has apparently stated in interviews that Naruto and Hinata ending up together was one of the things that he planned almost from the beginning. He did apparently decide on increasing her role in the final arc in response to her popularity, but Naruto and Hinata ending up together was planned long before that. One reason I think this is true (aside from, well, why would he lie about that?), is that her relation with Naruto did have some prominence as early as the Chunin Exams arc, most notably in the scene where Naruto talks to Hinata before his fight with Neji and he actually drops his boisterous façade and confides in her about his insecurities; something he noticeably never does in front of any other character; not even the ramen guy or Iruka.

I agree; she was definitely the best fit for him and she was one of the most interesting genin. She and Naruto are probably my favourite characters in the series.

Oh, I think I saw that filler arc. Was that the one where they're hunting for that rare beetle?

[Etrurian emperor]

14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Who's Toriyama? Anyway, I can agree about that: the romance is not a major focus and it's usually in the background.

The Dragonball guy. He had Bulma and Veteta hook up off screen because he didn't think he could write their romance very well.

15 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh, I think I saw that filler arc. Was that the one where they're hunting for that rare beetle?

Yeah that one. Where they're hunting the beetle and some Rock ninjas decide to misBEEhave. 

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The Dragonball guy. He had Bulma and Veteta hook up off screen because he didn't think he could write their romance very well.

Yeah that one. Where they're hunting the beetle and some Rock ninjas decide to misBEEhave. 

Ah; I see. I haven't watched Dragonball.

I've seen that one; as far as Naruto filler arcs go, that one wasn't bad. Hinata defeating those rock ninjas with her new jutsu (that she sadly never used again because it was filler) was really cool. That and the Six-Tails arc in Shippuden were probably the two filler arcs that I liked the most.

Edited December 1, 2021 by vanguard333

[Etrurian emperor]

I quite like Gai and I really like how despite....um...well despite everything he's not a joke character but one of the strongest guys around. But I also think that Naruto occasionally takes it too far how strong he is. That Gai defeated Kisame was something I found a bit of  stretch. But okay. He was the natural counter and a small rivalry between the two was indeed build up. So that's fine.

But his fight against Sage Madara is a bridge too far. At the end Gai opens a gate that allows him to fight on even footing with Madara and even genuinely impress the overly arrogant villain sue. The problem with Madara is that he's so overpowered that anything before him that was deemed exceptionally powerful is essentially helpless against him. That he can defeat all five Kage while goofing around and later faces off against all but one of the tailed beasts shows just how above everyone he is. And that's just regular Madara with sage Madara being even stronger than that. But by giving Gai this power it retroactively means that throughout the entire series Gai could have trivialized anything that was considered dangerous. Had he wished it he could have been hilariously more powerful than Hiruzen, than Orochimaru, than Pain, Danzo or the nine tails, probably hilariously more powerful than all of those at the same time. 

And I know that great power in exchange for your life force was a common aspect of Naruto but its still a stretch that this means being able to turn yourself dozens and dozens and dozens of times stronger than the highest levels of power in the ninja world. 

[vanguard333]

5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I quite like Gai and I really like how despite....um...well despite everything he's not a joke character but one of the strongest guys around. But I also think that Naruto occasionally takes it too far how strong he is. That Gai defeated Kisame was something I found a bit of  stretch. But okay. He was the natural counter and a small rivalry between the two was indeed build up. So that's fine.

But his fight against Sage Madara is a bridge too far. At the end Gai opens a gate that allows him to fight on even footing with Madara and even genuinely impress the overly arrogant villain sue. The problem with Madara is that he's so overpowered that anything before him that was deemed exceptionally powerful is essentially helpless against him. That he can defeat all five Kage while goofing around and later faces off against all but one of the tailed beasts shows just how above everyone he is. And that's just regular Madara with sage Madara being even stronger than that. But by giving Gai this power it retroactively means that throughout the entire series Gai could have trivialized anything that was considered dangerous. Had he wished it he could have been hilariously more powerful than Hiruzen, than Orochimaru, than Pain, Danzo or the nine tails, probably hilariously more powerful than all of those at the same time. 

And I know that great power in exchange for your life force was a common aspect of Naruto but its still a stretch that this means being able to turn yourself dozens and dozens and dozens of times stronger than the highest levels of power in the ninja world. 

I think most people would agree that, by the latter half of Shippuden, the power scaling became all out of whack, and Madara was the epitome of it. Normally, I would quickly point out that the Madara that beat five Kage was a reanimation Madara with infinite chakra, but the fact that he was still shrugging off attacks even when alive and without any eyes retroactively means that him being a reanimation didn't mean much. 

That said, it was established all the way back in the Chunin Exams arc that using all eight gates would make someone powerful enough to beat a Kage in exchange for it being the person's last fight, and I think that's a real biggy: it isn't power in exchange for a few years or a power that would kill a non-Uzumaki; it was power that would kill the user as a certainty if not for the healing power Naruto got from the Sage of Six Paths.

[Etrurian emperor]

17 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I think most people would agree that, by the latter half of Shippuden, the power scaling became all out of whack, and Madara was the epitome of it. Normally, I would quickly point out that the Madara that beat five Kage was a reanimation Madara with infinite chakra, but the fact that he was still shrugging off attacks even when alive and without any eyes retroactively means that him being a reanimation didn't mean much. 

I think I recall Hashirama saying that living Madara was stronger than zombie Madara. And Mu and Onoki barely being a threat to Madara seems to reinforce that sentiment. And indeed, being revived didn't put a dent in his abilities. 

[vanguard333]

31 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think I recall Hashirama saying that living Madara was stronger than zombie Madara. And Mu and Onoki barely being a threat to Madara seems to reinforce that sentiment. And indeed, being revived didn't put a dent in his abilities. 

I don't remember that, but it is very likely that he said that, and that would be another example of Madara breaking rules for the sake of power escalation; their reanimated selves are supposed to be stronger because they have unlimited chakra, and yet, an eyeless living Madara is somehow stronger than his reanimated self.

 

I think the most recent episode of Boruto being the last time we'll see Konohamaru lead team 7 was about as fitting a sendoff episode as they could manage; Konohamaru was not well-utilized at all as their leader, and this episode feels like the first one to actually give Konohamaru some dignity.

[Ottservia]

On 12/9/2021 at 7:09 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

But his fight against Sage Madara is a bridge too far. At the end Gai opens a gate that allows him to fight on even footing with Madara and even genuinely impress the overly arrogant villain sue. The problem with Madara is that he's so overpowered that anything before him that was deemed exceptionally powerful is essentially helpless against him. That he can defeat all five Kage while goofing around and later faces off against all but one of the tailed beasts shows just how above everyone he is. And that's just regular Madara with sage Madara being even stronger than that. But by giving Gai this power it retroactively means that throughout the entire series Gai could have trivialized anything that was considered dangerous. Had he wished it he could have been hilariously more powerful than Hiruzen, than Orochimaru, than Pain, Danzo or the nine tails, probably hilariously more powerful than all of those at the same time. 

I mean it’s not like the eighth gate is something he can use more than once. It’s called the gate of death for a reason. Yeah sure he could’ve used it at any point in the series and trivialize any fight but that also means he would have died and I doubt Guy is the type to throw his life away when he doesn’t have to. Also it was already well established that the eighth was capable of granting a person power well beyond that of a kage. And Kage are known to go toe-to-toe with tailed beasts so the eighth gate being able to grant Gai that much power makes sense

Edited December 11, 2021 by Ottservia

[Etrurian emperor]

12 hours ago, Ottservia said:

I mean it’s not like the eighth gate is something he can use more than once. It’s called the gate of death for a reason. Yeah sure he could’ve used it at any point in the series and trivialize any fight but that also means he would have died and I doubt Guy is the type to throw his life away when he doesn’t have to.

Like I said. The concept of great power in exchange for your death isn't really new in Naruto, and people who use this techniques usually have a strong chance of surviving anyway. 

12 hours ago, Ottservia said:

Also it was already well established that the eighth was capable of granting a person power well beyond that of a kage. And Kage are known to go toe-to-toe with tailed beasts so the eighth gate being able to grant Gai that much power makes sense

 

On 12/10/2021 at 6:43 AM, vanguard333 said:

That said, it was established all the way back in the Chunin Exams arc that using all eight gates would make someone powerful enough to beat a Kage in exchange for it being the person's last fight, and I think that's a real biggy:

Indeed. But ''beyond a kage'' was kinda meaningless at that point since if you're up against Madara than kage level doesn't really mean anything anymore. And I think a middle ground between ''beyond kage'' and ''about the strongest being in existence'' would have been nice. 

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Indeed. But ''beyond a kage'' was kinda meaningless at that point since if you're up against Madara than kage level doesn't really mean anything anymore. And I think a middle ground between ''beyond kage'' and ''about the strongest being in existence'' would have been nice. 

Good point. Perhaps there could've been a middle-ground.

[Ottservia]

5 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Indeed. But ''beyond a kage'' was kinda meaningless at that point since if you're up against Madara than kage level doesn't really mean anything anymore. And I think a middle ground between ''beyond kage'' and ''about the strongest being in existence'' would have been nice. 

 

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Good point. Perhaps there could've been a middle-ground.

I would agree until you consider how the eight gates actually work. They’re essentially strength multipliers much like the kaioken it’s based off of so Lee’s sixth gate is not as strong as Gai’s simply because he’s weaker than Gai. And base Gai is already roughly kage level on his own cause he scales to Kakashi who is confirmed to be a kage level shinobi even without sharingan. So it’s essentially taking a kage level shinobi and multiplying that strength 100s of times over. thinking about it like that yeah now it makes sense why he would scale to Juubi Madara 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Ottservia

[Sasori]

I've been playing a bit of Ninja storm 4 now that the entire set is on sale and boy does that story mode have a looot of Tobi and Madara in it. I stopped paying attention around that time in the manga/anime so it was a perfect pick up point for me. Although it did't stop the story from feeling kinda samy with the same antagonists. And with the heroes the same even some of the boss battles blend into each other with all those Susano's and giant explosions. I found that the third game struck a much better balance between them.

But anyway rewatching some stuff did make me warm up a little towards 'Tobi'. I won't say that I find his cause that symphethic and I certainly did't find him 'the coolest'. But his story otherwise is told pretty well and I found his redemption to be genuinely well done. He comes across as sorry and he's being genuinely helpfull. Unlike mister splendid soul from Xenoblade chronicles 2.  
 

[Etrurian emperor]

Jin was the coolest guy.

[Metal Flash]

After spending some time deliberating, I actually don`t hate the fact that the series had so few major character deaths. If anything, the fact that so few characters died made the ones who did die stand out more. While I don`t think all of them were handled great, most of them were done right. With that said however, there were moments I feel characters should have died. Guy using the Gate of Death and the Five Kage after the "fight" with Madara are the main examples that come to mind.

Also, one more common opinion, Hashirama Cells are bullsh*** and became a solve all miracle cure by the end.