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How to get better at FE games

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4 minutes ago, Theghostcreator said:

Most if not all of the examples you listed give you time to assess the situation, this isn't unfairness you're complaining about, you're complaining about the game giving you a lot of things to think about. 

You're complaining about bosses having skills you need to work around, anti-cheese skills, and skills that require you to plan around them... this is completely fair my dude, literally nothing jumps out of bushes and goes "hey blue units, I'ma do a pro-gamer move and ambush your units" or "hey blue units, I'm just gonna reveal my hidden skill". 

Conquest requires you to look at the board, deal with it, I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience with Conquest in the past but all of these design decisions are at least somewhat predictable, you aren't dealing with desert + fog of war + wyverns. There aren't ambush spawns in CQ BTW.

If you limit every single out of the box method of designing challenges because you deem them ''unfair'' then all you're left with is a game able to be cheesed with Xander. 

 

So, what have we learned today? If you use interesting mechanics to deliver fair challenges, you'll be deemed ''unfair'', but if you make it without anything then you'll be blasted for being ''too easy'', damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

TLDR: these things are told to you before the enemy can use them, that's plenty fair and if the game didn't have these things then it would be as easy as Birthright, Fates will never catch a break.

 

They are told to you, but do they have to limit you so much that you can't use your favorite units?

 

I think it's fine to have some Lunge skills but when you have EVERY unit have it for example that's bad design IMO.

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Just now, Fates-Blade said:

They are told to you, but do they have to limit you so much that you can't use your favorite units?

 

I think it's fine to have some Lunge skills but when you have EVERY unit have it for example that's bad design IMO.

okay, I understand your problem, however, I have to actually say that it's very good design to have the player have to change team composition, most units join combat ready and will usually be useful for the next map.

as for lunge, you can easily predict that units with lunge will use it bc that's what they do 90% of the time (this will be no different than 99% hit in thracia) that means you can plan around what they will do, this is a very interesting thing to plan around IMO and encourages playing fast and loose, you turtle too much and all the enemies will build up and lunge chain you to death, if you play fast you can player phase a lot of the lunge units and take control of the situation.

I'm not going to continue arguing as to not sidetrack the topic so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

2. Enemy Reinforcements:

This has been an extremely annoying thing for me, they litterally arrive RIGHT near your units if you don't know EXACTLY where placing a unit triggers their spawn, which can easily kill any of your units espeically when they have good skills.

At least they don't move on the same turn they appear. Which is a problem in, among other games, your favorite.

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

CH 11 Hinoka: Winged Shield seriously? When can we get a Winged Shield?

This basically is you saying "How dare the game give the enemy an anti-cheese skill".

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

CH 13: Scarlet: Death Blow seriously?

Easy. Just lure in one of the wyvern riders near her with a paired up unit.

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

CH 17 Kotaro: We have the caltrops we have to keep Saizo alive, and we have to deal with Grisly Wound (which normally only the Wolfssenger can learn but he oddly has it) and Trample and he's on a throne WITH high speed AND Duelist Blow???

The caltrops can be removed, and it's possible to trap Saizo so he doesn't kill himself. Kotaro is a pain in the ass, yes, but if he's baited into using his flame shuriken, he loses 20 avoid.

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

CH 19 Kaden: Armored Blow and Pass how??

His weapon also lowers his stats after attacking.

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

CH20 Fuga: Seal Str, Spd and Def, and Sol that he can't even learn normally AND he's on a Throne AND has 1-2 range weapons ONLY enemies can have?

The seal skills can be aggravating, but you're not timed. Also, the weapons he has are because Fates nerfed throwing weapons. He'd be trivially easy it he was given a wakizashi, battering club, and spear instead (not only do all three of those have blind spits, they also make the wielder easier to get follow-ups on).

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

CH 25: Ryoma: Lunatic and Hard have a VERY different Ryoma but look at his OP stats AND HE MOVES, not much else to say.

Not for 25 (hard)/20 (Lunatic) turns. Anyways, he's only an issue if your Corrin cannot take him on.

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

CH26 Iago: his infinite staff usage and you don't AT LEAST get a siege tome OR a Silence staff, oh and also a million Generals with OP wary fighter ready to kill you and if that wasn't enought Stoneborn that can immobolize you anywhere and kill you anywhere.😡

You do get a Silence staff, but it only lasts for one turn. Also, Hans can be Entrapped and killed. The stoneborn are only a problem if you take the left route.

1 hour ago, Fates-Blade said:

Conquest EG: We all know the issues with this.

Putting aside Lunatic, it's still more fair than desert + fog of war + wyverns. Or a boss that your best units more likely than not have barely better than coin-flip odds of hitting at best. Or Counter warriors that can move on the same turn they appear (given your favorite FE game, this should REALLY sound familiar. . .). Or a boss that 2HKOs pretty much everyone while your best units at that point can barely do enough damage to outpace the healing the gate gives him (bonus points for this being true of TWO bosses!). OR a final boss that requires suiciding your units to take out because he's so egregiously overpowered.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

IMO prevents you from using certain units like Arthur because of their lack of defense which is completely unfair IMO and since you would need to one round a lot of enemies it's very luck based.

You can use Arthur even on Lunatic (and I have). If he doesn't have the stats to tank, then don't use him as a tank, use him in a more attack stance and player phase focused strats instead...

 

2 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

After lunge is used many enemies can surround a unit and kill them only characters with high defense and in defense stance can survive which is completely unfair.

...Or you could use a strong offensive unit (possibly with attack-stance for the extra damage) to kill the Lunger on enemy phase, preventing it from triggering Lunge. Or use a freeze staff, or entrap staff to deal with it. There are other ways of playing around Lunge.

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH10: Because of Lunge.

I literally had to look up which enemies on this map have lunge, as I have never seen that be a problem. You can cripple the oni's with the flame orb to the point anyone can finish them on enemy phase, making their Lunge a bit of a non-issue.

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH19: Because of it's gimmick.

That gimmick is a double edged sword, if every enemy in the formation is on the same illusion timer, then the turns they are vulnerable to being attacked they can't retaliate on their turn, so you can really go all out, and find a safe formation to deal with what survived next turn. Plus the enemy's utter lack of 2 range lets you move a group of units surrounding Elise to create an extremely defensive formation.

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH20: Because you have to be good enough to mow down enemy after enemy.

...was this a typo? If you are really having a problem with the number of enemies here you can fairly easily ride the winds on the right to pull off a quick turn 5-6 clear fairly reliably.

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH 11 Hinoka: Winged Shield seriously? When can we get a Winged Shield?

...she is a stationary flier. If she had more than 0 move I might see your point.

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH 13: Scarlet: Death Blow seriously?

If you are having a problem with blow skills, then kill her on player phase.

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH 17 Kotaro: We have the caltrops we have to keep Saizo alive, and we have to deal with Grisly Wound (which normally only the Wolfssenger can learn but he oddly has it) and Trample and he's on a throne WITH high speed AND Duelist Blow???

You can remove the caltrops yourself, Saizo doesn't have to survive (you just get a speed wing if he does), and there are plenty of ways to deal with stationary enemies with high evasion. Duelist Blow only works enemy phase, you can use Heartseeker to reduce avoid by 20, using attack stance adds a minimum of +10 hit, if that attack stance is with Corrin you can add the +10 hit from Supportive as well, you could even use Benny' personal to reduce avoid by another 10, if you are still having problems a freeze staff use can drop that avoid by another 20, and that is all before factoring in WTA (not to mention debuffs)

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH 19 Kaden: Armored Blow and Pass how??

 

CH20 Fuga: Seal Str, Spd and Def, and Sol that he can't even learn normally

Is this just a complaint that some enemy bosses have skill sets you can't get on them in other games? Well I guess you did describe it as minor issue. Personally I am fine with units being slightly different when they are enemies than when the are playable units.

 

7 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

AND he's on a Throne AND has 1-2 range weapons ONLY enemies can have?

Like with Hinoka's Wing Shield, if he had more than 0 move, I might actually have a problem with the special 1-2 range weapon. Also see my Kotaro comment if you are having trouble hitting a stationary target just because of the throne.

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH 25: Ryoma: Lunatic and Hard have a VERY different Ryoma but look at his OP stats AND HE MOVES, not much else to say.

Until you clear the rest of the map he is on terrain that makes him deal 1/4 damage which heals you every turn. I have seen Corrin's capable of dealing with him before the 20/25 turns he remains stationary on both difficulties, and it has to be a fairly bad Corrin that dies to him with the 1/4 damage healing tiles active, as long as you bought some items to heal. You can even buff your Corrin through the wall if you have to wait it out. Wyvern Lords can also reach the point of having sword-breaker and Dual Club to deal with him when you do get to the point of fighting him...

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

CH26 Iago: his infinite staff usage and you don't AT LEAST get a siege tome OR a Silence staff, oh and also a million Generals with OP wary fighter ready to kill you and if that wasn't enought Stoneborn that can immobolize you anywhere and kill you anywhere.😡

He also follows a really obvious pattern and is stationary, so you can avoid the hexing rod on Lunatic, the silence staff only effect a few of your units, and freeze staff are easily neutered by going with an attack stance focused formation (so the frozen unit can pair with an unfrozen one to move), and you can avoid or wait out the enfeeble debuff depending on you preference. While the stoneborn are difficult to deal with (I will note they can't immobilize you I assume you are thinking of the Maids in the bottom room, but I already mention a way of escaping immobilization while talking about Iago), they are entirely optional, and even then I found a way to safely deal with them on my Lunatic, no guard-stance on enemy phase, no pre-promoted royals only 10 units deployed run. As for Wary Fighter, it doesn't block brave hits, or attack stance hits, and they are vulnerable to effective weaponry, and you can even use it on the absurdly high defense Benny if you want to use that "OP" skill for yourself. Don't get me wrong, the Generals and Berserkers are tricky to deal with, but there is nothing that unfair about it.

 

3 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

 

Conquest EG: We all know the issues with this.

Its only really on Lunatic where it has bad issues...

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59 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That gimmick is a double edged sword, if every enemy in the formation is on the same illusion timer, then the turns they are vulnerable to being attacked they can't retaliate on their turn, so you can really go all out, and find a safe formation to deal with what survived next turn. Plus the enemy's utter lack of 2 range lets you move a group of units surrounding Elise to create an extremely defensive formation.

Speaking of this chapter... I'ma be honest, the only part of that chapter that really gives me issues is the 8 kitsune formation near the dead tree because there are some Life and Death kitsune among them, and they (by which I mean the whole formation) are on different illusion timers.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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15 hours ago, Armchair General said:

The only way that you can fail these is if the stat gains screw you over

Even then you can get replacement units in form of Kids and captureable generics

12 hours ago, Theghostcreator said:

So, what have we learned today? If you use interesting mechanics to deliver fair challenges, you'll be deemed ''unfair'', but if you make it without anything then you'll be blasted for being ''too easy'', damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

TLDR: these things are told to you before the enemy can use them, that's plenty fair and if the game didn't have these things then it would be as easy as Birthright, Fates will never catch a break.

I have noticed that many of those who don't like Conquest's gameplay want it to be just like most other FE where every map is basically the same, and not change tactics and situations every map.

 

Conquest is, by far, the only game in the series to do high difficulties right. But people complain anyway because ''Skill Emblem'' bad or something. And because they just want to park units somewhere and enemy phase with them

Edited by Father Shrimpas

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14 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

CH26 Iago: his infinite staff usage and you don't AT LEAST get a siege tome OR a Silence staff, oh and also a million Generals with OP wary fighter ready to kill you and if that wasn't enought Stoneborn that can immobolize you anywhere and kill you anywhere.😡

Lmao, I avoided the Stoneborn and just turtled that map.

 

14 hours ago, Theghostcreator said:

Conquest requires you to look at the board, deal with it, I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience with Conquest in the past but all of these design decisions are at least somewhat predictable, you aren't dealing with desert + fog of war + wyverns. There aren't ambush spawns in CQ BTW.

But in all seriousness, how often does FE actually forces people to think before they act on Hard mode? Because I only have the 3DS games and 3H; and out of all of them, Conquest required some extensive planning and Lunatic Birthright certainly required a few workarounds just to survive (especially that sewer map).

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28 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

But in all seriousness, how often does FE actually forces people to think before they act on Hard mode? Because I only have the 3DS games and 3H; and out of all of them, Conquest required some extensive planning and Lunatic Birthright certainly required a few workarounds just to survive (especially that sewer map).

That sort of gameplay is most prevalent in older games like the SNES titles and NDS remakes, the modern games go more for building the best characters rather than building the best strategies, although 3H maddening does need some thought.

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I think that Conquest has its fair share of "unfair" situations, by which I mean either they are heavily reliant on luck or they require you to have either played the game before or read spoilers if you're to avoid falling into various traps and gotcha style situations. Off the top of my head:

  • The reinforcements in Chapter 9 (the one where you recruit Azura and Nyx) can easily spawn in a way that it's impossible to react to, depending on how your units are positioned when you trigger them.
  • In Chapter 10 (the port defense chapter), there's no real way to predict that Takumi will use a Dragon Vein and that it will completely change the nature of the objective and invalidate certain strategies.
  • Some of the map gimmicks aren't well explained, and failing to understand them can easily lead to death. I know I failed Chapter 19 (the kitsune chapter) when I first saw it, not because of any inherent difficulty in the mechanics but because I didn't understand what the mechanics were.
  • The mess hall is very RNG dependent, especially if we're assuming no online. You have to worry about what your native ingredient is, who's on duty at the mess hall, what random stat gets boosted, and who in your party receives the buff.
  • There is literally a lottery.
  • For a game that's so heavily reliant on skills, it should be possible to look up which classes give which skills and what said skills do in game. There's basically no way to optimise a character if you don't know the skill system ahead of time.
  • Speaking of skills, skill proc percentage chances are another layer of RNG to contend with, and are more pronounced in Fates than in most FE games.
  • There's no way to see weapon triangle stats in game, which is absolutely a trap in a game that sometimes expects you to calculate every single point of damage.
  • Enemy units have different rules for Dragon Veins than player units. We get single-use Dragon Veins, they get infinite-use Dragon Veins.

To be clear, this isn't to say that I think that Conquest is a particularly unfair game. I don't. But that doesn't mean that it's a paragon of fairness either. It's probably better than most Fire Emblem games in this regard but that isn't saying much. It still has plenty of little things that can easily trip up the unwary.

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On 11/27/2021 at 7:58 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hm, what do you mean by this? FE3H still shows hit and avo in the status screen, just like GBA/etc., and still shows calculated hit chance in the combat prediction. In fact 3H is actually a bit nicer than earlier games because it will also show you hit chance of an enemy's planned attack on the enemy phase if you move the cursor over them. It also doesn't have a varied set of weapon triangle effects to keep track of the way the DS games and Awakening/Fates do.

The actual hit and avo stats are a little harder to calculate ahead of time (due to prowess skills and the like), but I don't think that's a big deal, since they'll be calculated for you by the time you're making actual decisions (and you can see how they update as you change weapons, for instance).

I think you should read that quote chain all the way backwards, because what you're saying doesn't really help me.

---

Hey everyone else, there's more FE games than Fates.  If y'all want to complain about Fates, there's a subforum for that (and as a bonus, I'll tell you what you're doing wrong on Chapter 19).

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1 hour ago, eclipse said:

I think you should read that quote chain all the way backwards, because what you're saying doesn't really help me.

Could you explain what you mean, then? You claimed (if I'm reading right) that 3H makes it more difficult to calculate evasion than the GBA games. If you meant something besides what I presumed in my reply, please let me know. (I have read the entire thread up to that point, but it's of course possible I'm misunderstanding something.)

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On 11/25/2021 at 12:51 PM, eclipse said:

3H is way more complicated when it comes to math.  Earlier games showed the odds of you and your opponent landing a hit (not the true odds, thanks 2RN), which IMO is what I'd rather see.

Outside of calculating gambits, the new assortment of bonuses, and how crit avoid is calculated; the math in 3H is more or less identical to anything else that uses 1RN. What's different is that you're actually seeing more of how the variables in the equations interact with each other as opposed to the game just handing you your characters' stats and a combat forecast.

All you have to do is take the number from Hit section from a character's status screen and run it against the "Avo" value of every enemy on the map. Of course, terrain is an issue; but that can be worked around with how aggressive  the AI is.

 

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

I think that Conquest has its fair share of "unfair" situations, by which I mean either they are heavily reliant on luck or they require you to have either played the game before or read spoilers if you're to avoid falling into various traps and gotcha style situations. Off the top of my head:

  • The reinforcements in Chapter 9 (the one where you recruit Azura and Nyx) can easily spawn in a way that it's impossible to react to, depending on how your units are positioned when you trigger them.
  • In Chapter 10 (the port defense chapter), there's no real way to predict that Takumi will use a Dragon Vein and that it will completely change the nature of the objective and invalidate certain strategies.
  • Some of the map gimmicks aren't well explained, and failing to understand them can easily lead to death. I know I failed Chapter 19 (the kitsune chapter) when I first saw it, not because of any inherent difficulty in the mechanics but because I didn't understand what the mechanics were.
  • The mess hall is very RNG dependent, especially if we're assuming no online. You have to worry about what your native ingredient is, who's on duty at the mess hall, what random stat gets boosted, and who in your party receives the buff.
  • There is literally a lottery.
  • For a game that's so heavily reliant on skills, it should be possible to look up which classes give which skills and what said skills do in game. There's basically no way to optimise a character if you don't know the skill system ahead of time.
  • Speaking of skills, skill proc percentage chances are another layer of RNG to contend with, and are more pronounced in Fates than in most FE games.
  • There's no way to see weapon triangle stats in game, which is absolutely a trap in a game that sometimes expects you to calculate every single point of damage.
  • Enemy units have different rules for Dragon Veins than player units. We get single-use Dragon Veins, they get infinite-use Dragon Veins.

To be clear, this isn't to say that I think that Conquest is a particularly unfair game. I don't. But that doesn't mean that it's a paragon of fairness either. It's probably better than most Fire Emblem games in this regard but that isn't saying much. It still has plenty of little things that can easily trip up the unwary.

Chapter 9's reinforcements is something that a FE veteran should pick up on because it has stairs at certain places.

 

Sure, Chapter 10 is pretty cruel; but it's there to reinforce the point that you can do everything right, but there will occasionally be something that nobody can predict. But, the prologue shows off the enemy using a Dragon Vein to evaporate an river and I'm pretty sure that the terrain data for the tile Takumi is standing on outlines it's effects.

As for the lottery, it kind of depends on what prizes are available. All I ever got was some random ranged weapons.

Edited by Armchair General

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Just now, Dark Holy Elf said:

Could you explain what you mean, then? You claimed (if I'm reading right) that 3H makes it more difficult to calculate evasion than the GBA games. If you meant something besides what I presumed in my reply, please let me know. (I have read the entire thread up to that point, but it's of course possible I'm misunderstanding something.)

If you're doing manual calculations, then just about every equation became more complicated post-NM.  For those who don't run the numbers before moving, it's not really a concern.

3 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Outside of calculating gambits, the new assortment of bonuses, and how crit avoid is calculated; the math in 3H is more or less identical to anything else that uses 1RN. What's different is that you're actually seeing more of how the variables in the equations interact with each other as opposed to the game just handing you your characters' stats and a combat forecast.

If you're trying to figure out if someone's going to survive before you move them (or if they'll get a kill on a given phase), then those other factors you're handwaving as "not complicated" are important.

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11 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If you're trying to figure out if someone's going to survive before you move them (or if they'll get a kill on a given phase), then those other factors you're handwaving as "not complicated" are important.

I'm saying that the last game actually skips a step or two of you running the math by providing some feedback on how accurate & evasive your guys are, along with their actual physical and magical defense is.

Sure, you'll still have to look at several enemies to get a feel on how powerful and accurate they're are; but that's streamlined by looking at their accuracy rating (and subsequently running it against your Avo number) and attack power that's displayed as opposed to trying to figure out how the math works, beforehand.

 

Basically, the math has changed; but you now have most of the answers displayed on-screen as opposed to it staying under the hood.

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11 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

I'm saying that the last game actually skips a step or two of you running the math by providing some feedback on how accurate & evasive your guys are, along with their actual physical and magical defense is.

Sure, you'll still have to look at several enemies to get a feel on how powerful and accurate they're are; but that's streamlined by looking at their accuracy rating (and subsequently running it against your Avo number) and attack power that's displayed as opposed to trying to figure out how the math works, beforehand.

 

Basically, the math has changed; but you now have most of the answers displayed on-screen as opposed to it staying under the hood.

That's only part of it, at best.  Maybe one day I'll do a chapter run that shows off just what I mean.

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On 11/30/2021 at 4:57 PM, eclipse said:

If you're doing manual calculations, then just about every equation became more complicated post-NM.  For those who don't run the numbers before moving, it's not really a concern.

But 3H shows you Hit and Avoid on the respective status screens. It's a pretty simple matter to just subtract them, which is exactly what you did in GBA as well.

Though I do realize that I forgot about linked attacks, which can't be seen until you reach the projection screen. While they're not relevant for enemies attacking you (which is where I usually do manual hit calculations, to determine how safe my evasion game is), they are relevant for your own attacks, and yeah if you want to hand-calculate them that's a bit more annoying. (Granted, this is pretty similar to factoring in your support bonuses to hit/avoid in the GBA games.)

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17 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

But 3H shows you Hit and Avoid on the respective status screens. It's a pretty simple matter to just subtract them, which is exactly what you did in GBA as well

At least I'm not the only one who gets this.

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