Sues you like

[Jotari]

So there is always much debate on the internet about what exactly a Mary Sue is and whole who isn't a Mary Sue. Usually it boils down to an insult towards a character. But we know its not just code for "a character I don't like" much as people treat it. There's something in there about unnatural talent and superficial flaws. So I ask you,  under your own definition are there any characters that you consider Sues that you actually like.

I'll go ahead and start with my hot take that the original Arthur Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes is very much a Sue (except in the first book where he's just a dick). He's amazing at everything, barely ever fails and is constantly being praised by other characters in the story. But it works for Holmes because his stories aren't character driven, they're always plot driven. The focus is on the mysteries and not the character relationships. So an infaliable super man doesn't interfere with the story. We can marvel at Holmes's intellect like the characters in the story because what were really marvelling at is the construction of the plot itself as he explains it.

So yeah, I consider Holmes one of the purest Sues you can have yet I still enjoy him as a character (so much so I'm one of the few Holmes fans that enjoy the stories written by Holmes himself and not penned by Watson, which I hear are largely considered the weakest of the lot). Are there any such characters you would consider Sues that you find yourself enjoying. Guilty pleasures are permissible too.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

I like this one

But otherwise I really can't name one. They're pretty much all defined by tropes that just torpedo's any character in my esteem. I guess I like the Corrins in the sense that even if I think they're awful main characters I think they are likable as characters and that there are at least solid reasons as to why everyone in the world would adore them.

[Clear World]

If it’s up to my definition, Mary Sue is a ‘narrative-issue’ and not a ‘character-issue’, in which the narrative seems overly protective of a certain character and goes out of its way to make that character beloved, which often means other characters & plot details twisting and turning to save face for those characters. So this list I'm making isn't much of a list of people who I think are actually mary-sue as I don't really see the term indicative of a character but rather their story is crap for being obsessive with drooling over certain characters.

Anyways, as someone who grew up reading the Twlight saga during my impressionable youth & having gone back to it in the past year, I actually like Bella Swan. Though I’m more than willing to admit she has some questionable behaviors & the saga as a whole to be rather poor in writing quality, I do like Bella.

I like Kaylo Ren, though I wish the third movie went in a different direction for him.

Though, I should probably say, I Another note, because I'm just in the mood having watched a trailer for an upcoming HBO Max show, I also like John Cena during his mega-push in wrestling. It’s just a shame I could never see him. 

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

So there is always much debate on the internet about what exactly a Mary Sue is and whole who isn't a Mary Sue. Usually it boils down to an insult towards a character. But we know its not just code for "a character I don't like" much as people treat it. There's something in there about unnatural talent and superficial flaws. So I ask you,  under your own definition are there any characters that you consider Sues that you actually like.

I know this isn’t supposed to be a debate about what defines ‘a Mary Sue’, but I just have to say, I do find it often as nothing but code for “I don’t like that character much” because it is heavily not applied to characters who people likes for other reasons who would in all cases fall under ‘unnaturally talent & superficial flaws’, while at the exact same time being applied to characters who comes nowhere close to being ‘unnaturally talent & superficial flaws’. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Clear World

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Clear World said:

 

I know this isn’t supposed to be a debate about what defines ‘a Mary Sue’, but I just have to say, I do find it often as nothing but code for “I don’t like that character much” because it is heavily not applied to characters who people likes for other reasons who would in all cases fall under ‘unnaturally talent & superficial flaws’, while at the exact same time being applied to characters who comes nowhere close to being ‘unnaturally talent & superficial flaws’. 

Yeah that's kind of why I made this thread. People treat the term as if its code for "I just don't like this character", but in using the term they arebtryong to make an excuse of some sort to justify that stance. So to turn things on their head j wanted to get people to think of cases where what they usually see as bad actually works. Essentially a character version of the "exceptions to tropes I don't like" thread we have going on.

[Lorneus]

Hmm... I'd have to say Mita Touma from Ao no Flag. He's incredibly popular, everyone likes him, he can do basically anything he sets his mind to and his flaws are basically that he's too selfless and beats himself over the head for who he is. Yet, the story really creates the character and delves deep into him, and every other character for that matter, and it really makes you care about them. One of my favorite manga.

Does Saitama count? I'd add Saitama in the lot. He's just too freaking hilarious.

And I know there's the Gary Stu term for males, but I believe I read somewhere that there were specific characteristics to Gary Stus different than those of Mary Sues.

[Etrurian emperor]

On 12/14/2021 at 3:19 AM, Clear World said:

I like Kaylo Ren, though I wish the third movie went in a different direction for him.

I don't really think Kylo Ren counts as a Sue. They're supposed to be perfect but the central point to Kylo's characters for two movie is what a gigantic loser he is.

But I agree the third film should have done something different with him. In the second film he becomes the main villain who takes control of the First Order and tries to pursue his own personal philosophy. And then suddenly in the third film he's back to being a lackey. Its a shame. Especially because the one scene where he actually see him be a leader in his own right is his best scene in Rise. 

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't really think Kylo Ren counts as a Sue. They're supposed to be perfect but the central point to Kylo's characters for two movie is what a gigantic loser he is.

But I agree the third film should have done something different with him. In the second film he becomes the main villain who takes control of the First Order and tries to pursue his own personal philosophy. And then suddenly in the third film he's back to being a lackey. Its a shame. Especially because the one scene where he actually see him be a leader in his own right is his best scene in Rise. 

Yeah, if anything Kylo Ren is the most complex and developed character out of the entire cast (or if I were being uncharitable, the only complex and developed character out of the entire cast).

[Clear World]

On 12/17/2021 at 5:49 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't really think Kylo Ren counts as a Sue. They're supposed to be perfect but the central point to Kylo's characters for two movie is what a gigantic loser he is.

You didn't understand my post as I clearly pointed out, that's not how I define 'Sue'' and I made it a point to say I was using my definition. Being perfect means nothing to me when regarding 'Sue's.

I put Kylo Ren as a Sue because of the third movie. The entire story structure, characters' arc & universe that the first two movie has established changes so he can get an easy redemption arc even though he has caused so much utter destruction and heavily backtracks/ignore/retcons all his character growth in the first two movies.

That is why I consider him a Sue. The third film is so warped with so many bad ass-pulls to accommodate his character, to the point that Rey (the actual main character) & the other protagonists barely gets a character arc or even completed story arcs. In such sense, I see JJ Abrams twisting the story to heavily favor a particular character which so happen to be Kylo Ren.

On 12/13/2021 at 11:09 PM, Jotari said:

Yeah that's kind of why I made this thread. People treat the term as if its code for "I just don't like this character", but in using the term they are to make an excuse of some sort to justify that stance. So to turn things on their head j wanted to get people to think of cases where what they usually see as bad actually works. Essentially a character version of the "exceptions to tropes I don't like" thread we have going on.

Except it has been often used as code for "i don't like this character', that's why it got that negative connotation. Regardless if you want it to exist or not, it exists.

Besides, we already have a lot of terms that fits the mold of its many differing definition of a mary sue that is far less messy & narrow scoop such as:

- Perfect, The Ace, Idealized, Infallible, Power Fantasy, Author Avatar, Self-Insert, Protagonist 

If you want to use this term in a 'constructive manner', my personal suggesting would be to not use the term at all, and instead use a more defined term that better illustrate whatever you're trying to say.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Clear World

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Clear World said:

You didn't understand my post as I clearly pointed out, that's not how I define 'Sue'' and I made it a point to say I was using my definition. Being perfect means nothing to me when regarding 'Sue's.

I put Kylo Ren as a Sue because of the third movie. The entire story structure, characters' arc & universe that the first two movie has established changes so he can get an easy redemption arc even though he has caused so much utter destruction and heavily backtracks/ignore/retcons all his character growth in the first two movies.

That is why I consider him a Sue. The third film is so warped with so many bad ass-pulls to accommodate his character, to the point that Rey (the actual main character) & the other protagonists barely gets a character arc or even completed story arcs. In such sense, I see JJ Abrams twisting the story to heavily favor a particular character which so happen to be Kylo Ren.

Except it has been often used as code for "i don't like this character', that's why it got that negative connotation. Regardless if you want it to exist or not, it exists.

Besides, we already have a lot of terms that fits the mold of its many differing definition of a mary sue that is far less messy & narrow scoop such as:

- Perfect, The Ace, Idealized, Infallible, Power Fantasy, Author Avatar, Self-Insert, Protagonist 

If you want to use this term in a 'constructive manner', my personal suggesting would be to not use the term at all, and instead use a more defined term that better illustrate whatever you're trying to say.

Well for 1, there is definitely different nuance in all those terms, and 2, I wouldn't say it's a term I actually do use all that much.