Ambush Spawns are good (maybe)

[Jotari]

Ambush Spawns came up in the unpopular opinions thread with some people defending it, or at the very least developing the idea of "they can be good if done in a certain way." My 2 cents on the topic was as followed.

When people say Ambush Spawns the first map that comes to mind to me is the Minerva Map in Shadow Dragon. The first one, with the white wings. And reading what you say about it working as a one or two map gimmick, I think I rather like them there.  They're very telegraphed for one. They come from forts you can block for two and they're centred on the lower half of the map with a lot of room to retreat in the north. There's also terrain that makes it difficult for them to all get to you at once, so if you blind trigger them you'll likely only get hit by one enemy (yet they're Cavaliers, so they'll still get to you pretty quickly meaning you will get swarmed if you can't control things). Overall they're predictable and provides a good challenge for seizing the boss's area.

So what do you think. Can Ambush Spawns work and is there, at the very least, a spectrum in the series between Ambush Spawns that you see as benign (if not good) vs horrible. I have to say even though they warn you with dialogue about them in Awakening, I just don't like the Ambush Spawns that game gives. I think, perhaps, because the ambush spawned enemies are usually pretty powerful.

[joevar]

im picking "ambush spawn is not inherently evil" side 😄

but i wont butt-head with people who hate it either since this is FE thread which, 99% of the time ambush spawn will punish the player big time even if you have good strategical thinking, as long as you go blind with the playthru. if this were not FE focused thread i will openly defend it. since element of surprise is something that i look forward actually.

one of the ambush spawn thats less bad than the other that i can think of for now is chapter 21 of FE6. you've got plenty of unit to sortie, the map is huge with plenty room for moving, your units at that point should already be beefy enough to take a couple more beating than usual, the enemy unit have relatively same stat than the others and theres a clear dialogues that hint that there's going to be one. plus its literally all out war (plot-wise) than small skirmish, not expecting someone will flank you is negligence imo.

Edit: grammar error

Edited December 15, 2021 by joevar

[Alastor15243]

I'm staunchly in the "no ambush spawns" camp. I've seen some people argue ways they're harder for the player to exploit, but literally all the advantages of ambush spawns could be enjoyed with non-ambush spawns if they just made a status that makes you invincible but wears off at the start of your next turn. So you can't kill them before they get their first attack. You can only go on the defensive.

I'm firmly of the belief that the less the player has to worry about shit that has not yet happened and may not ever happen, the better. Everything the game throws at you should give you, bare minimum, a full turn to at best counter it or at worst make the decision of who's dying come enemy phase. Ambush spawns set an uncomfortable precedent that punishes people who aren't paranoid and don't turtle past every false positive they see.

The other big objection to ambush spawns is that even if they did have positives, said positives only truly work once, on your first blind playthrough. They have precious little staying power and largely just kill the fun of blind runs, because they depend on the element of surprise to do what they do.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Alastor15243

[FailWood]

4 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I'm firmly of the belief that the less the player has to worry about shit that has not yet happened and may not ever happen, the better. everything the game throws at you should give you, bare minimum, a full turn to at best counter it or at worst make the decision of who's dying come enemy phase. Ambush spawns set an uncomfortable precedent that punishes people who aren't paranoid and don't turtle past every false positive they see.

The other big objection to ambush spawns is that even if they did have positives, said positives only truly work once, on your first blind playthrough. They have precious little staying power and largely just kill the fun of blind runs, because they depend on the element of surprise to do what they do.

I second this.  I've never liked ambush spawns, and Awakening is the big reason for it.

[Alastor15243]

Oh, one more thing: ambush spawns cripple glass cannons. Imagine trying to use Elise if Fates had ambush spawns. It would be a nightmare.

[joevar]

@Jotari i request a definitions of what constitutes an ambush spawn in first post, so everyone have same clear-cut understanding before commenting. because i suddenly having second thought of what can be included as ambush spawn and what is something else

[Use the Falchion]

I'm pretty fine with ambush-spawns as they can add tension, but I do think the series now has a tendency to over-rely on them. IMO the problem isn't with the ambush spawn itself, but what is the game trying to achieve with them. If it's just a spike in difficulty, then there are probably other ways to go about that. Then again, the later you are in the game, the harder it is, since the game isn't built for adjusting difficulty based on the units you have. You can't have an all-flying map late in the game when some players may have killed all of their fliers.* 

Awakening, despite its poor use of the trope overall, does have two good examples of it to me at least. The first is the map with Pheros. Not only does the game telegraph what's happening, but it also plays into the overall rebellion plot and sets up the next story beat. (Not to mention that players can easily stop reinforcements since they only spawn from one place and can easily be blocked.) 

The second time is during the escape from the Plegian Castle after Robin hands over the gemstones. Having enemies that attack from long range can be annoying, but their appearance keeps up the pressure to get out of there ASAP and helps with the overall tension of the map design. (Now, depending on how much grinding you've done, these guys are completely ineffective, but it's still the thought behind the design.) 

Three House's Cindered Shadows has a level with reinforcements, and I loved that level because it felt tense as the stakes kept piling against me, forcing me to be better, move faster, think more strategically. 

But most ambushes don't work like the examples above because they have the mindset of "more enemies = harder challenge," and that's not a constant. More enemies with variety that are well placed and at a higher level = harder challenge, but only for so long. 

So yeah, I don't mind them overall, but I also wouldn't mind a downsize in the use of them and more time spent on how to challenge the players in other ways. 

 

 

*This gets into a video I watched asking why early FE game levels are better than late-game levels, and the YouTuber came up with the idea that early-game levels are better because everyone has something to do. There are no units that are wasteful, or tricks players won't use to overcome their challenges. I think that's a good point too - early training maps in Three Houses are often far harder to me than late-game maps, particularly when most of my team needs training. During those maps, everyone is doing something, be it healing, attacking, baiting opponents, or using a gambit. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[AnonymousSpeed]

49 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I've seen some people argue ways they're harder for the player to exploit, but literally all the advantages of ambush spawns could be enjoyed with non-ambush spawns if they just made a status that makes you invincible but wears off at the start of your next turn.

I don't know, sounds like a sort of slap-patch fix.

Personally, while I don't love ambush spawns, they can do neat stuff. When an ambush spawn kills a unit, yeah, that sucks, but it forces you do adapt. That's one of the fun things about an ironman run, and so I like the unpredictability (if you can call it that when the maps are the same every playthrough) which ambush spawns can bring. Had there been no ambush spawns in Shadow Dragon, I probably wouldn't have been using Horseman Caesar.

[Shrimpica]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Can Ambush Spawns work

No

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

is there, at the very least, a spectrum in the series between Ambush Spawns that you see as benign (if not good) vs horrible.

They are downright horrible. They can't be done well. 

The only exception is if it's verrrrry clear (as in a big exclamation mark appearing right before they spawn clear), they only spawn very rare, and if they are very weak or it's made clear which enemy unit is coming out. Also no high mov units to not make the player prefer turtling near every fort.

So just don't use them

[Alastor15243]

22 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I don't know, sounds like a sort of slap-patch fix.

Personally, while I don't love ambush spawns, they can do neat stuff. When an ambush spawn kills a unit, yeah, that sucks, but it forces you do adapt. That's one of the fun things about an ironman run, and so I like the unpredictability (if you can call it that when the maps are the same every playthrough) which ambush spawns can bring. Had there been no ambush spawns in Shadow Dragon, I probably wouldn't have been using Horseman Caesar.

Can't disagree more. I mean I agree that unit deaths make ironmans more fun, but ambush spawns just aren't a good way to make the actual death exciting or memorable. Setting aside the precedent and the sort of fun-dampening strategies it may inspire in the player every time they see a fort, I have an actual anecdote from my recent Project Ember blind ironman.

I have only lost two units so far. Saul and Dorothy, both in the same map. Saul's death was my favorite moment of the entire run so far. Dorothy's was not.

Saul died because I got hit by a pincer attack while I still had a ton of units in the central hallway. I had to evacuate my entire army into the two side halls, and by the end it became painfully apparent that there was no way everyone would make it. Someone would have to stand in the way of a ton of archers and enemy soldiers. I chose Saul to get the axe, and he ran over to Alen, a space away and yet completely safe, shoving his guiding ring and rescue rod into Alen's hands screaming "TAKE IT!" like the Rogue One soldier handing the plans off through the broken door as Darth Vader comes bearing down on him. It was intense as hell, making my decisions knowing there wasn't actually a happy ending here.

Dorothy died because she was in front of one of the lower doors I opened to see if Project Ember changed what was in them, and ambush spawns killed her after I routed the enemies inside. Yeah. Nowhere near as fun of a story to tell.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

I don´t care for Ambush reinforcements as long as they come from clearly designed areas, unless they only spawn if you put a unit in range. And even that is on a first playthrough basis - on second run everything is fair game. I´ve played enough SD to be suspicious of stairs & doors even irl.

Awakenings problem was that anything and everything could be an area for reinforcements. Tile of wood? Bandits. Tile of Water? Pegasus Knight. Grima´s wing? Believe it or not, REINFORCEMENTS!

And to the unblockable ambush spawn from a visibly designated area  on Maddening AM last map a most sincere nope. That was the single worst thing I seen in all FE.   

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

There's technically an argument out there that "reinforcement who shows up after player phase on turn X" is more friendly to the player than "reinforcement who shows up before player phase on turn X". In the former version, you can use "turn X" to block the forts, or wherever the spawn is gonna ambush you from. In the latter, you can get next to the fort, but then you have to attack the reinforcement (who has terrain advantage). And even if you kill them, another will show up the next turn.

Then again, that's a really dumb argument. The only good ambush spawn is a dead one.

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

Oh, one more thing: ambush spawns cripple glass cannons. Imagine trying to use Elise if Fates had ambush spawns. It would be a nightmare.

Clearly, it's your fault for leaving Elise in the range of no enemies. Danger-free zones are the most susceptible to being ambushed, after all!

[Interdimensional Observer]

Valkyria Chronicles has just entered my head. To be precise, how you're told when enemies are requesting "normal" reinforcements at a camp, which takes one turn to actually appear. Seize said camp during your phase on the next turn, and the reinforcements will be canceled. Also, VC4 has a least one map where reinforcements are paratroopers who you do get a turn's warning for their landing well, with the ability to set your snipers on them while they're in the air, which FE wouldn't really be able to imitate.

As my use of the word "normal" earlier indicated, abnormal reinforcements do exist from time to time. Which can be expectedly frustrating. While VC has permadeath, it's highly unlikely any of your KO'ed units will actually die, given the generous three-turn window to save them, and the fact that enemy units don't intentionally approach your units' dying bodies to permakill them. So really, VC isn't a good comparison for FE.

As for ambush reinforcements in general, FE12 turned me off from them. I'm firmly against the concept now.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, joevar said:

@Jotari i request a definitions of what constitutes an ambush spawn in first post, so everyone have same clear-cut understanding before commenting. because i suddenly having second thought of what can be included as ambush spawn and what is something else

I would define it as enemies who spawn on the enemy phase and can also move and attack the same turn. Different to enemies that can spawn mid player phase when you pass a certain point, which I would call Tripwire Reinforcements.

[deskita]

I'd say that the biggest problem with ambush spawns is that even if the game makes it clear that something is coming, pretty much no game makes it clear what is actually coming. Which means that you can end up with situations like your fliers getting killed by archers or your low res units being killed by mages or anything else.

This means that the only good ways to deal with ambush spawns that you don't know the identity of is to either attempt to stay out of their range, which is made harder by not knowing their movement or what range they can attack from, or just put a unit who can take just about any enemy type well within their range such as Robin.

Because of this I'd say that it's pretty much essential that the game actually informs the player of the stats and weapons of incoming reinforcements if ambush spawns are used so that they can plan accordingly. Otherwise for first-time players who don't want to spoil things by looking it up I'd say that ambush spawns would make using low defense or flying units a bit of a nightmare.

[Eltosian Kadath]

3 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

 

The other big objection to ambush spawns is that even if they did have positives, said positives only truly work once, on your first blind playthrough. They have precious little staying power and largely just kill the fun of blind runs, because they depend on the element of surprise to do what they do.

On the contrary, the value of Ambush spawns is in second or non-blind playthroughs. When you know about reinforcements beforehand its really easy to cheese them, and ambush spawns remove one of the big ways of doing so, giving reinforcements in general a staying power that the would lack otherwise. As for blind play, FE has been trying to protect blind-players from the dangers of Ambush Spawns by restricting them to only the higher difficulties since Shadow Dragon...

50 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 

As for ambush reinforcements in general, FE12 turned me off from them. I'm firmly against the concept now.

I find this a bit ironic, as I found the placement of the save tiles to be a valuable indicator for the timing/triggers of FE12s ambush spawns, making them some of the easiest to predict, and thus deal with, ambush spawns in the series.

[Alastor15243]

1 minute ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

As for blind play, FE has been trying to protect blind-players from the dangers of Ambush Spawns by restricting them to only the higher difficulties since Shadow Dragon...

But not the highest difficulty available for a first run. People who don't like playing normal mode are SOL.

2 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

On the contrary, the value of Ambush spawns is in second or non-blind playthroughs. When you know about reinforcements beforehand its really easy to cheese them, and ambush spawns remove one of the big ways of doing so, giving reinforcements in general a staying power that the would lack otherwise.

The only way it does this is by keeping the player from attacking them before they have a chance to attack, which could easily be done just by making reinforcements invincible until the beginning of their first turn. Same benefit, no unfairness for blind players.

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I find this a bit ironic, as I found the placement of the save tiles to be a valuable indicator for the timing/triggers of FE12s ambush spawns, making them some of the easiest to predict, and thus deal with, ambush spawns in the series.

I had played FE3 only earlier in the year that I played FE12, I did not expect them to completely change where the Fire Dragon Graveyard reinforcements show up. In FE3, they were fun, b/c I chose to hurry forward and try to seize before the reinforcements caught up to me. In FE12, the new reinforcements were a mess that took many retries from those save points to keep Etzel and I think Marth from perishing. I don't remember why, it just was for me. Ice Dragon Temple exterior and Gra Wyvern Lords also did me in IIRC.

[Eltosian Kadath]

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

But not the highest difficulty available for a first run. People who don't like playing normal mode are SOL.

Then I suppose the decision in Three Houses to restrict it to the highest difficulty only is one positive move it made for the series in your eyes...

 

Just now, Alastor15243 said:

The only way it does this is by keeping the player from attacking them before they have a chance to attack, which could easily be done just by making reinforcements invincible until the beginning of their first turn. Same benefit, no unfairness for blind players.

It would come with a newer unfair problem entirely, that there are now spaces that you physically can not move through in any way shape or form, as they are occupied by enemies you cannot remove.

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Then I suppose the decision in Three Houses to restrict it to the highest difficulty only is one positive move it made for the series in your eyes...

Perhaps, if not for the tripwire reinforcements that are arguably even bigger sources of paranoia.

3 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

It would come with a newer unfair problem entirely, that there are now spaces that you physically can not move through in any way shape or form, as they are occupied by enemies you cannot remove.

How is that a problem that my suggestion creates? In both cases you can't move past them before they attack, it's just that my way you get the chance to muster a defense against them.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Eltosian Kadath]

6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I had played FE3 only earlier in the year that I played FE12, I did not expect them to completely change where the Fire Dragon Graveyard reinforcements show up. In FE3, they were fun, b/c I chose to hurry forward and try to seize before the reinforcements caught up to me. In FE12, the new reinforcements were a mess that took many retries from those save points to keep Etzel and I think Marth from perishing. I don't remember why, it just was for me. Ice Dragon Temple exterior and Gra Wyvern Lords also did me in IIRC.

As someone that never played FE3 I didn't come in with expectation for them. Admittedly it is a headspace you have to get into for this, but the Save points of a map have been placed where they are for a reason, and a lot of them are just before reinforcement triggers, or spaced for you to reach them about a turn before reinforcements show up, when approaching them at normal pace, which gives you an idea of when those reinforcements will show up, with the normal cues for where they show up that FE likes to use.

 

7 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

How is that a problem that my suggestion creates? In both cases you can't move past them before they attack, it's just that my way you get the chance to muster a defense against them.

If reinforcements are set to spawn in a way that blocks a path you wanted to take, and those enemies can't be targeted, you now have spaces that cannot be entered or passed through because they are occupied by enemies you can not target. With Ambush spawns you can either move through the space they haven't spawned in yet, or kill them if they end up in a space that is blocking the path you want to take.

[Alastor15243]

3 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

If reinforcements are set to spawn in a way that blocks a path you wanted to take, and those enemies can't be targeted, you now have spaces that cannot be entered or passed through because they are occupied by enemies you can not target.

I... can scarcely recall any instances of reinforcements spawning in spaces between any point A and point B. They almost always come from the edges of the map, or from dispersed forts, or from stairs near the walls of open rooms. They never would have blocked the way to get somewhere if they were invincible for a turn.

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 minute ago, Alastor15243 said:

I... can scarcely recall any instances of reinforcements spawning in spaces between any point A and point B. They almost always come from the edges of the map, or from dispersed forts, or from stairs near the walls of open rooms. They never would have blocked the way to get somewhere if they were invincible for a turn.

I can think of a few, IO for instance just mentioned the Fire Dragon Graveyard, and one set of those could block your path forward due to them spawning across a line of forts. Even when it is just disparate forts or stairs, those might be the spaces you were expecting to pass through, or needed to pass through to reach something in time, which this new mechanic has unexpectedly transformed into impassible terrain. Also, if the game has unblockable reinforcements they might be moved into unexpected positions that block the way forward by enemy and allies occupying spaces. There might be design decisions that make this rarely be an issue, but I seem to remember you remarking on Shadow Dragon having design decisions that made you feel the Ambush Spawns were rarely an issue in that game either...

[Alastor15243]

6 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I can think of a few, IO for instance just mentioned the Fire Dragon Graveyard, and one set of those could block your path forward due to them spawning across a line of forts. Even when it is just disparate forts or stairs, those might be the spaces you were expecting to pass through, or needed to pass through to reach something in time, which this new mechanic has unexpectedly transformed into impassible terrain. Also, if the game has unblockable reinforcements they might be moved into unexpected positions that block the way forward by enemy and allies occupying spaces.

Given that this situation only comes up when reinforcements spawn really, really close to you, so close that the idea of moving past them would even be in the cards if they weren't invincible, I'd say what that set of reinforcements might do to your army without that turn to prepare is a way bigger concern than the single turn added to your turn count.

6 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

There might be design decisions that make this rarely be an issue, but I seem to remember you remarking on Shadow Dragon having design decisions that made you feel the Ambush Spawns were rarely an issue in that game either...

Mostly. It still had some awful ones, but most of them were far away from where your army would realistically be. The huge cast and bonus chapters were the main saving grace.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Alastor15243

[Sasori]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I just don't like the Ambush Spawns that game gives. I think, perhaps, because the ambush spawned enemies are usually pretty powerful.

I most remember Awakening for their counter reinforcement. Few things in FE felt more unfair then a unit dying just because you could't foresee a enemy with such a annoying skill on it.