Legendary Hero - Byleth: The Fodlan Light

[Medeus]

23 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

A third of a PS5 is not functional, whereas sparks on some banners is functional. Having to pay for the remaining 2/3 of a PS5 just to make it functional is not at all analogous to having to pay for sparks on additional banners when you already have sparks on some banners.

Try again.

And I can say the same to your PS5 example as a whole. Everyone does not get free access to a PS5 in any capacity, everyone who can boot up FEH does get free access to a spark on New Heroes banner. It's not a good comparison nor a good reflection of what you're trying to say. 

23 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I was pre-empting the argument.

I could understand if I was going in that direction, but nothing about our discussion should've implied it. 

23 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's still a balancing act between the revenue you lose from paying players to the revenue you gain from attracting new players that will eventually become paying players.

Adding generous sparks typically results in a positive revenue balance for younger games where attracting new players is important and the market for new players is larger, whereas the balance swings the other way for older, well-known games with established player bases.

This doesn't really sit with me considering, again, FEH implemented spark on a smaller scale already with its New Heroes banner and it was four years old by the time it did it. Additionally, we have had games implement sparks with no caveats to how they work within the system of their games. While I wouldn't say it's well known or even as successful, Dragalia Lost is over a year younger then FEH, yet it not only implemented Spark later then FEH it allows anyone to freely spark in any banner (and even lowers the spark in special cases). 

I don't see why FEH has to be the exception to this. Games in similar positions to FEH have implemented spark without the strings FEH is putting on its own, and FEH itself has implemented spark in a similar way to those games in a couple respects. I don't feel that the revenue point is enough to justify the decision to lock it to FEH Pass, and I definitely don't think it's enough to placate people who are disappointed in how it was implemented despite how they handled it previously.

18 hours ago, XRay said:

Membership has been the same since the beginning. You get about twice as many skills, and the free skills that free players have access to now have at least two or three times more content. Training skills in general is also less tedious since there are lot more ways to train and are more efficient. In terms of quests, you get like at least ten times more quests. The map is about four or five times bigger, so there is a lot more to explore. There is more stuff to do in general. I am not sure how much micro transactions and gacha contributes towards Jagex's revenue, but Runescape members can generally easily rake in enough in game currency (GP) to simply buy most rewards directly or indirectly from the other two revenue streams.

Thanks for the rundown. If I understand correctly the microtransactions/gacha allow for you to streamline to get to the rewards, but it's farmable if you don't want to pay? That seems about on par with gachas with their own subscription models.

18 hours ago, XRay said:

Fire Emblem Heroes' main revenue stream is the gacha system, and their subscription and Special Orb Packs seems like it is made to support that with Orbs and guaranteed summons. My distaste with Feh Pass is that it has benefits/rewards outside the main revenue model (Summoner Supports, Re-Act, Auto-Start, Resplendent stats, etc.), and you cannot use the currency of the gacha system (Orbs in this case) to get those rewards. I think extra guaranteed summons is totally fine because it is essentially the equivalent of extra Orbs once you break it down to its most basic level, and Orbs is not something that is exclusive to Feh Pass subscribers. Given enough time to save Orbs, any player can eventually get any Hero they want, free players will just get there slower compared to someone with Feh Pass. On the other hand, lacking stats and extra summoner support literally puts a hard performance cap on a non Feh Pass player rather than just simply inconveniencing them with a longer time table to reach their goal. Quality of life features like Re-Act and Auto-Start should have been free, or at least give players a choice to get those features with a few Orbs like how players can choose to get more Affinity in Aether Resort by paying 3 Orbs.

We definitely share that distaste, QoL features like the Auto-Start and stats should not be locked away as it's basically pushing you to get the pass for better performance when it should just be an nice extra to your experience. 

[Florete]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

They also gave Legendary Lucina bows...and Legendary Alm...and Legendary Lyn...

And Chrom.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Strange that they never gave him the Omega Yato as a weapon evolution though. Anyone remember weapon evolutions? That was a thing once, right?

That was a thing once upon a time for older characters to get a newer version of the weapon they already wield that was added on someone else. LEphraim comes with Flame Siegmund -> Ephraim gets access to it, BRoy comes with Blazing Durandal -> Eliwood gets access to it. MCorrin never would have gotten Omega Yato because Omega Yato never came at all.

[XRay]

7 hours ago, Medeus said:

Thanks for the rundown. If I understand correctly the microtransactions/gacha allow for you to streamline to get to the rewards, but it's farmable if you don't want to pay? That seems about on par with gachas with their own subscription models.

GP is pretty easy to farm, especially when you have higher level skills, but easy does not always mean fun. But yeah, if you do not like micro transactions or gachas, you can use GP to buy most rewards from the micro transaction store or from the gacha systems directly or indirectly.

In Heroes though, the resources that you can farm are pretty limited and are practically near worthless. Free Orbs and all other important resources are time gated. As a player, I wish Orbs would be farmable, but that would basically ruin the financial viability of Heroes and cause the game to shut down.

Edited December 25, 2021 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

On 12/23/2021 at 8:57 PM, Naoshi said:

$10 USA dollars = $200 pesos and FEH pass for me it's $175 pesos, aka it's bit more cheaper.

Since cost of living between countries is different, even if 10 USD converts as 200 MXN (I'm guessing Mexican pesos), and Feh Pass is 175 MXN, that isn't necessarily cheaper.

Can I ask what the buying power of 175 MXN comes out to (similar to my comparison of 10 USD to 2-3 Starbucks coffees)?

 

On 12/24/2021 at 3:40 PM, Medeus said:

And I can say the same to your PS5 example as a whole. Everyone does not get free access to a PS5 in any capacity, everyone who can boot up FEH does get free access to a spark on New Heroes banner. It's not a good comparison nor a good reflection of what you're trying to say. 

No, not really. A spark on one banner is not the same thing as a spark on a different banner, just like how a PS4 is not the same as a PS5 or how one video game is not the same as another video game. Each individual spark is a complete, functional product. You're trying to treat "getting a spark on all banners" as a single, irreducible product when, in fact, it can be divided up with each division remaining fully functional.

Furthermore, analogies are intended to be used to illustrate a point in a way that is more familiar to the other person and, in general, cannot represent the original situation perfectly in all possible ways. Arguing against an analogy is, by definition, arguing against a strawman. Flaws in an analogy are just that: flaws in an analogy. They don't affect the original argument.

Regardless, you still haven't made a case as to why getting sparks on some banners for free means that players are entitled to get sparks on other banners for free.

All I'm still getting is "I'm upset that I don't get this new thing for free."

 

On 12/24/2021 at 3:40 PM, Medeus said:

I could understand if I was going in that direction, but nothing about our discussion should've implied it. 

Pre-empting an argument is not always intended to be used when the other person is implying that they might be going in that direction. They can be used because the retort is so common that regardless of the direction the argument is going, the argument is likely to be used.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 3:40 PM, Medeus said:

This doesn't really sit with me considering, again, FEH implemented spark on a smaller scale already with its New Heroes banner and it was four years old by the time it did it. Additionally, we have had games implement sparks with no caveats to how they work within the system of their games. While I wouldn't say it's well known or even as successful, Dragalia Lost is over a year younger then FEH, yet it not only implemented Spark later then FEH it allows anyone to freely spark in any banner (and even lowers the spark in special cases). 

I don't see why FEH has to be the exception to this. Games in similar positions to FEH have implemented spark without the strings FEH is putting on its own, and FEH itself has implemented spark in a similar way to those games in a couple respects. I don't feel that the revenue point is enough to justify the decision to lock it to FEH Pass, and I definitely don't think it's enough to placate people who are disappointed in how it was implemented despite how they handled it previously.

Dragalia Lost is a newer, standalone IP, and both of those factors that weigh against it in terms of marketability. Implementing a spark is beneficial to draw in more players based on good reviews and word of mouth. Adding features that reduce the revenue stream from existing players, but make the game more attractive, is still likely to be positive from the number of players that it can be projected to draw in.

Fire Emblem Heroes is based on an already successful IP and has a sizable and stable player base. Adding more sparks is unlikely to pull in a significant number of new players to offset lost revenue. Heroes is not in a similar position as Dragalia Lost.

As for the original implementation of sparks for New Heroes banners, that can actually be justified as bringing in new revenue. Prior to the implementation of sparks, players other than Arena whales had no urgent reason to pull on New Heroes banners (unless there was a character you were really waiting for, but that's not true of New Heroes banners in general) due to the fact that the units were guaranteed to end up in the standard summoning pool (and were likely to eventually appear on a 3-character banner with better summoning rates), whereas units in Special Heroes banners had limited availability and were therefore actually worth spending money on to get within their availability time frame. By adding a spark to New Heroes banners, players who previously only bought orbs for Special Heroes banners (like me) now had a reason to also buy the 155 orbs needed to get a spark, which at worst (for the developers) only diverted spending from one banner to another and best coaxed out an extra 80 USD. Other players now had an incentive to save up 155 orbs for each month's New Heroes banner, leaving them with fewer orbs for the Special Heroes banner and Legendary/Mythic Hero banner, which could push players who are on the edge over into paying territory.

The fact of the matter is that the implementation of the previous spark system increased revenue, whereas the current implementation of additional sparks risks losing revenue.

 

As for Heroes's position, if anything, Heroes is more similar in position to Fate/Grand Order in terms of age (Heroes is a year and a half younger) and clout (Heroes is probably a bit less well known), and FGO doesn't have a spark system at all. It does have a system to pick a character of your choice to get, but it is virtually impossible to use if you aren't at least a moderately large spender.

[Naoshi]

On 12/28/2021 at 10:40 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Since cost of living between countries is different, even if 10 USD converts as 200 MXN (I'm guessing Mexican pesos), and Feh Pass is 175 MXN, that isn't necessarily cheaper.

Can I ask what the buying power of 175 MXN comes out to (similar to my comparison of 10 USD to 2-3 Starbucks coffees)?

Ah, yes. I meant MXN, I can't tell you about Starbucks prizes since I had never even enter that place/order, I heard its pretty expensive. But I can tell you two milk (2)litters can be bought with 175.

Edited January 1, 2022 by Naoshi

[Ice Dragon]

57 minutes ago, Naoshi said:

Ah, yes. I meant MXN, I can't tell you about Starbucks prizes since I had never even enter that place/order, I heard its pretty expensive. But I can tell you two milk (2)litters can be bought with 175.

Interesting. It sounds like milk costs more than average where you live, then, since Google tells me the average for Mexico is about 8 liters for 175 MXN. And for comparison, the average in the US is 10 liters for 10 USD (and is accurate for where I live in suburban Wisconsin).

And yeah, I consider Starbucks to be overpriced, but it's easily the most popular coffee shop here in the States and is staple enough for college students and young professionals to be a useful comparison. Meanwhile, I've always been content with office break room coffee (which was free) or soda (where I can get a 12-pack for the same price as a single Starbucks coffee) for my caffeine fix.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Interesting. It sounds like milk costs more than average where you live, then, since Google tells me the average for Mexico is about 8 liters for 175 MXN. And for comparison, the average in the US is 10 liters for 10 USD (and is accurate for where I live in suburban Wisconsin).

Milk is a particularly bad example for price comparisons precisely because its price can fluctuate so much. And once you consider it for a second, the fact that it fluctuates is kind of obvious. We get milk from cows, so one's access to milk will depend heavily on how well their land is supported for rearing cattle. And while of course you can, and many do, import milk, milk spoils fast ("unless it's UHT milk, but there's no demand for that because it's shite"). There's also a cultural and (possibly) genetic element to milk specifically too. In predominately white countries milk is seen as a daily breakfast sort of thing, it's drank a lot more, but for most of the world adults just don't really drink milk, it's seen as something only for kids (as I said this might be a genetic thing, but I haven't researched that properly, so it could be some pseudo science racists come up with). Milk is still going to be predominant everywhere (it's a common ingredient in coffee at the very least, though I have been to many places where cream is preferred over milk), but those combinations of factors will lead to the price of milk being pretty different from country to country.

For price comparisons between places in the world, this is a particularly good website.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp

And just to back up a point using that site, comparing Mexico Mexico to New York New York

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Mexico&country2=United+States&city1=Mexico+City&city2=New+York%2C+NY

You can see that New York is waaaay more expensive than Mexico for absolutely everything, with the exception of milk and fuel costs (fuel costs are also something that flucuates wildly, not just between places but within in the same place day by day, though I'm not sure why New York doesn't hike up the costs of fuel to gouge the people that stubbornly insist on driving in a city where driving is such a nightmare).

And from my understanding, when comparing  prices using the USA, it's probably better to compare by state than a national average, since not only do different states have different GDP, unlike a lot of places in the world, different states have different taxes and stuff, meaning cost of living can probably change a good deal. At the very least I expect prices in Alaska to be quite different to prices in Texas.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Jotari