Best unit in the series?

[LJ_Reflet]

42 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

What? But the description explicitly says the attack has to land.

Apparently the description states that the attack has to land in order for the Galeforce-effect to take effect, but there's either a glitch/mistake in the coding or a possible oversight that even if it misses, you can still take another turn.

But for my contender for best in the series, I would say Robin only because I've only ever played the 3DS games up to 3H (so idk how much my opinion matters LOL). Morgan is an extremely close second.

Robin is definitely inferior to Frederick in the difficult beginning of the game, but they grow a lot better and by the time Robin reaches level 10 roughly (which can be very early), usually that's when they start to surpass Frederick.

Morgan can arguably become a much better unit than Robin since they have higher potential stat caps, but Morgan's earliest recruitment is after chapter 13. Child paralogues tend to be tough at this point too so some extra grinding may be required if you want to recruit the child units as soon as their paralogues open. 3rd gen Morgan eats up the game, but I personally would rather have Robin not marry a child unit LOL.

[Jotari]

11 hours ago, indigoasis said:

Sigurd is a unit that immediately comes to mind. He's a mounted pre-promote available from the start in a game where mounted classes dominate, not to mention he gets one of the strongest weapons in the game, if not the series, in the last chapter he's available in. Until then, he gets the Silver Sword in the Prologue, which is powerful enough in it's own right and should carry him until he picks up Tyrfing.

He's also one of the few units in the series that can solo his campaign, if I recall correctly. I believe that Seth (The Sacred Stones) and Ike (Path of Radiance) are two other units that can solo their respective campaigns as well. If there are any others, I can't think of them at the moment.

Path of Radiance Ike can't really solo the early game.

11 hours ago, indigoasis said:

The only real problems I can think of with Sigurd are that he gets Tyrfing so late and the fact that he's simultaneously the best and worst Jagen in the series. He starts off extremely strong, but falls off extremely hard about halfway through the game.

Anyway, I would also argue that Seliph, Sigurd's son, is just as strong, if not stronger, than Sigurd once he's trained up. The way I see it, he's a Sigurd that you get to build up. He doesn't start off pre-promoted like his father, BUT he does inherit anything that Sigurd had on his person at the end of Generation 1 (besides Tyrfing), so the Silver Sword and any rings that Sigurd picked up would be passed down to Seliph, which would give him a major advantage in getting him up to speed if you plan it right. Once Seliph is able to promote, he's easily the best unit in your army and essentially Sigurd 2.0. The only thing that makes Seliph not as good as Sigurd right out of the gate is that he starts out as an infantry unit.

Robin (and by extension, Morgan) is also a strong contender (as well as Corrin + Kana [and Byleth, to an extent]) since you can more or less build them however you want to, so even if they aren't necessarily the best, they're at least the most versatile units in the series.

Id actually say Byleth is one of the least versatile  characters in Three Houses. Kind of hard to build weapon ranks without the lecturing.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Jotari

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, lenticular said:

My criteria would be:

• Fantastic availability
• Very strong throughout the whole game, from the start to the end
• Equally as good for a new player on the easiest difficulty setting as for a veteran player on the hardest difficulty setting
• Offers something that can't be replicated or replaced by any other unit
• The game is notably harder if you decide not to use them.

And while I haven't played the entire series... yeah, that sounds like Robin to me. Honourable mention to Edelgard who starts out being probably the best unit in the game due to her great base stats and finishes off being probably the best unit in the game due to how ridiculous Raging Storm is.

No joke, but I think Safy fullfills all that criteria! She even has unique hammerne ability in a game with a lot if great prfs. 

Forgive the double post. Serenes is being uncooperative. 

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Robin have gotten hyped up a lot in this thread so far. But how can they be called the "best in the series" when each of them is only able to trivialize one game?

I mean...... you can recruit Lucina, Marth, Robin and Ike in 3 Fates paths... I don´t know how they´d fare in CQ but BR and Rev they should have an ok time? 

 

Other than that, I mean it´s gotta be Robin? Robin is weaker than Frederick for what, 3 chapters, and that weakness gets largely remedied by pairing up with Frederick and from then on best hope for some good level ups because otherwise, that´s a reset.

[lenticular]

6 hours ago, FailWood said:

I disagree with this.  Sure, Raging Storm's effect is incredible, but most people forget that it's not an Art that people can just go ham with, plus you don't get the effect if Edelgard misses the attack.  Amyr has low durability, and the ore needed to repair it to continue using Raging Storm is the rarest kind, with the Titinus in CF Chapter 16 being the only realistic source of it without grinding side battles (via those Sand Worms).  Plus you only get 6 chapters with, so it's use is limited.

I used to be of broadly this opinion as well, but have generally come to appreciate Edelgard as a unit more and more over time. Saying that Raging Storm is only available in 6 chapters sounds pretty damning, but Crimson Flower only has 18 chapters total, so those 6 chapters make up a third of the game. They're also some of the hardest chapters in the game, definitely some of the hardest chapters on Edelgard's route, so the impact is even more than what you'd expect for being available in a third of all chapters.

I also don't think it matters all that much that you can't just spam Raging Storm with impunity. Obviously, she'd be better if she could spam it, but that doesn't stop her being absurdly powerful as is. The big benefit is that you use it when you need it. Edelgard is the best unit by a long way at the times where you absolutely need a broken overpowered unit; at other times she's merely very good. This concentration of force to the exact point that it's needed is incredibly strong.

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Edelgard is great from start to end, arguably the best unit at all points in the game (she's the best by far when she can use Raging Storm, but still the best at other points thanks to her ridiculous str/cha and great talent list). I'd argue she's the best unit in 3H and certainly on her own route... but 3H runs a tight curve. Unlike my own personal Big Three, Edelgard doesn't have huge initial level or class advantages on her competition; she starts at Level 1 like everyone else, and largely has the same class access as everyone else (though not everyone else gets Pegasus Knight). The bad 3H units aren't as bad as the bad units in other games, but the good units largely aren't as good, too.

I think you're underselling Edelgard's early game a little bit here. She isn't completely dominant in the same way that Seth or Titania are, but she still has a big early game advantage. Some numbers:

Spoiler

Let's look at Black Eagle units only (since that's who she's competing with in her early game). Let's also look only at the physical attacking units. Magically attacking units aren't really comparable since they have the advantage of targeting res but the huge disadvantage of limited spell uses to start off with.

At base, Edelgard has a strength score of 13. This is the same as Byleth, but far superior to anyone else. Petra and Caspar have a base of 9; Ferdinand and Bernadetta have a base of 8. If we assume that we're leaving everyone with their starting weapons, then that only increases Edelgard's advantage, due to the base might of axes. If we combine the units' base strengths with the might of their weapons, we get the following:

• Edelgard + iron axe: 21
• Byleth + iron sword: 18
• Caspar + iron axe: 17
• Ferdinand + iron lance: 14
• Petra + iron sword: 14
• Bernadetta + iron bow: 14

For Black Eagles Maddening Chapter 1, the average enemy defence is 8.5. Let's round down and call it 8. With a base weapon attack against an average enemy in Ch1, Edelgard (13 damage) is doing more than twice as much damage as Ferdinand, Petra or Bernadetta (6 damage each), about 45% more damage than Caspar (9 damage), and 30% more damage than Byleth. This is really good. Not Seth and Titania levels of really good, but still really good.

In fairness, her advantage does decrease somewhat when combat arts are considered -- and it's definitely a good idea to make heavy use of combat arts in Ch1 Maddening -- but even then, she is still doing more damage than anyone else and has the +20% crit chance from Smash that sword or axe users lack.

I'd also say that starting at level 1 is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. Right from the start of their games, Seth and Titania start losing the advantage that they have over everyone else, since they're leveling up much more slowly. By contrast, Edelgard is actually leveling up faster than anyone else due to her personal ability.

In short, I'd say that while Seth and Titania are outstanding early game units who are merely very good in the late game, Edelgard is an outstanding late game unit who is merely very good in the early game.

That said, I do agree with you about Three Houses having a narrower range of unit strengths than most other games in the series, which is a big part of the reason why I only had Edelgard as an honourable mention and not my overall top choice. (The other big reason is that I think that her personal class is a big newbie trap, which makes her considerably worse for inexperienced players, which was one of my criteria.) That was why I picked Robin as my overall top choice. However...

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

No joke, but I think Safy fullfills all that criteria! She even has unique hammerne ability in a game with a lot if great prfs. 

...even though I haven't ever played Thracia and have no idea who Safy is, I am tempted to change my pick now just because I am feeling contrary today.

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I used to be of broadly this opinion as well, but have generally come to appreciate Edelgard as a unit more and more over time. Saying that Raging Storm is only available in 6 chapters sounds pretty damning, but Crimson Flower only has 18 chapters total, so those 6 chapters make up a third of the game. They're also some of the hardest chapters in the game, definitely some of the hardest chapters on Edelgard's route, so the impact is even more than what you'd expect for being available in a third of all chapters.

That's deceptive though. As there aren't 18 chapters total in Crimson Flower, there are 18 chapters in Crimson Flower's story mode. In other words, paralogues are a thing. And you're probably going to have a lot more of them in Part 1 than in Part 2 (and in one of the Black Eagles Paralogues, Linhardt's, Edelgard can't even join, I think). Of course that does mean there are more chapters for Raging Storm, but also proportionally less chapters of the overall campaign.

41 minutes ago, lenticular said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Let's look at Black Eagle units only (since that's who she's competing with in her early game). Let's also look only at the physical attacking units. Magically attacking units aren't really comparable since they have the advantage of targeting res but the huge disadvantage of limited spell uses to start off with.

At base, Edelgard has a strength score of 13. This is the same as Byleth, but far superior to anyone else. Petra and Caspar have a base of 9; Ferdinand and Bernadetta have a base of 8. If we assume that we're leaving everyone with their starting weapons, then that only increases Edelgard's advantage, due to the base might of axes. If we combine the units' base strengths with the might of their weapons, we get the following:

• Edelgard + iron axe: 21
• Byleth + iron sword: 18
• Caspar + iron axe: 17
• Ferdinand + iron lance: 14
• Petra + iron sword: 14
• Bernadetta + iron bow: 14

For Black Eagles Maddening Chapter 1, the average enemy defence is 8.5. Let's round down and call it 8. With a base weapon attack against an average enemy in Ch1, Edelgard (13 damage) is doing more than twice as much damage as Ferdinand, Petra or Bernadetta (6 damage each), about 45% more damage than Caspar (9 damage), and 30% more damage than Byleth. This is really good. Not Seth and Titania levels of really good, but still really good.

In fairness, her advantage does decrease somewhat when combat arts are considered -- and it's definitely a good idea to make heavy use of combat arts in Ch1 Maddening -- but even then, she is still doing more damage than anyone else and has the +20% crit chance from Smash that sword or axe users lack.

 

...even though I haven't ever played Thracia and have no idea who Safy is, I am tempted to change my pick now just because I am feeling contrary today.

Well basically she's the early game healer in a game where staffs are massively important. And the only other healer for a large chunk of the game that she competes with is Nana, who has hit issues. Yeah, that shouldn't be an issue for healers, but, well, Thracia. So to tally off your list.

• Fantastic availability Yes, you get her in Chapter 2 or 2x.
• Very strong throughout the whole game, from the start to the end Yes, because staffs are always good in Thracia.
• Equally as good for a new player on the easiest difficulty setting as for a veteran player on the hardest difficulty setting Yes, being a staff bot, obviously new players will know how to use her and veteran players will know hot to make use of her
• Offers something that can't be replicated or replaced by any other unit Even if "being able to heal when there are no other reliable healers around" isn't considered unique, as stated, she has unique access to Hammerne
• The game is notably harder if you decide not to use them Yes, if you ignore Safy in Thracia then the game will be harder for quite a long time and even in the second half when you get other good staff users she is still a valuable asset you'll likely feel the absence of.

And for a bonus fun fact, she actually isn't as squishy as she seems. Oh her defensive stats suck, but because she doesn't carry any weapons, it means enemy AI will choose capturing her over killing her. Which means even if you mess up and leave her exposed, you still have a chance to save her by killing or capturing the enemy that nabbed her (capturing is better though as the enemy will steal her stuff).

Points against her however is that she starts with C rank staves. You should be using her enough though that her weapon rank will be quite high by the time you really need to start using Warp (or she'll at least be at B for the Rescue Staff). And even at C you have access to stuff like Sleep, Physic and Barrier (and yes, Barrier staff is really good in Thracia as it can boost a mage's attack power). There was another negative I was going to mention, but it's slipped my mind now.

 

[lenticular]

53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's deceptive though. As there aren't 18 chapters total in Crimson Flower, there are 18 chapters in Crimson Flower's story mode. In other words, paralogues are a thing. And you're probably going to have a lot more of them in Part 1 than in Part 2 (and in one of the Black Eagles Paralogues, Linhardt's, Edelgard can't even join, I think). Of course that does mean there are more chapters for Raging Storm, but also proportionally less chapters of the overall campaign.

You'll typically have more paralogues in Part 1 than Part 2, yes, but in order to unfavourably skew the ratio, you'd have to be doing more than twice as many in Part 1 than Part 2. For Part 1 paralogues, there are three that you're guaranteed to have access to (Sothis's, Flayn's and Dorothea & Ingrid's), an additional seven that are contingent on who you recruit (Alois & Shamir's, Raphael & Ignatz's, Hanneman & Manuela's, Ashe & Catherine's, Sylvain's, Felix's, Lorenz's) and then another two if you have the DLC. For Part 2, there are three guaranteed (Hubert's, Edelgard's, Bernadetta & Petra's), two contingent on recruiting (Leonie & Linhardt's (though, as you say...), Marianne's) and one more if you have the DLC (Anna and Jeritza's).

It's certainly possible to do more than twice as many in Part 1, but it's also easily possible to do less than twice as many, which would then mean you'd have Raging Storm for over a third of chapters. As an example, imagine that you have the DLC and you only take all the free recruits. We'll say that you're playing as female Byleth, so let's include Sylvain in the free recruits. That would give you eight paralogues in Part 1 and four in Part 2, still keeping the ratio of 2:1. Or let's assume that you want to recruit literally everyone. That's twelve in Part 1 and five in Part 2 (not including the Linhardt and Leonie paralogue, since there's no Edelgard there either way). That does slightly tip the ratio in favour of Part 1, but not by very much.

[Dark Holy Elf]

7 hours ago, lenticular said:

I think you're underselling Edelgard's early game a little bit here. She isn't completely dominant in the same way that Seth or Titania are, but she still has a big early game advantage. Some numbers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Let's look at Black Eagle units only (since that's who she's competing with in her early game). Let's also look only at the physical attacking units. Magically attacking units aren't really comparable since they have the advantage of targeting res but the huge disadvantage of limited spell uses to start off with.

At base, Edelgard has a strength score of 13. This is the same as Byleth, but far superior to anyone else. Petra and Caspar have a base of 9; Ferdinand and Bernadetta have a base of 8. If we assume that we're leaving everyone with their starting weapons, then that only increases Edelgard's advantage, due to the base might of axes. If we combine the units' base strengths with the might of their weapons, we get the following:

• Edelgard + iron axe: 21
• Byleth + iron sword: 18
• Caspar + iron axe: 17
• Ferdinand + iron lance: 14
• Petra + iron sword: 14
• Bernadetta + iron bow: 14

For Black Eagles Maddening Chapter 1, the average enemy defence is 8.5. Let's round down and call it 8. With a base weapon attack against an average enemy in Ch1, Edelgard (13 damage) is doing more than twice as much damage as Ferdinand, Petra or Bernadetta (6 damage each), about 45% more damage than Caspar (9 damage), and 30% more damage than Byleth. This is really good. Not Seth and Titania levels of really good, but still really good.

In fairness, her advantage does decrease somewhat when combat arts are considered -- and it's definitely a good idea to make heavy use of combat arts in Ch1 Maddening -- but even then, she is still doing more damage than anyone else and has the +20% crit chance from Smash that sword or axe users lack.

I'd also say that starting at level 1 is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. Right from the start of their games, Seth and Titania start losing the advantage that they have over everyone else, since they're leveling up much more slowly. By contrast, Edelgard is actually leveling up faster than anyone else due to her personal ability.

In short, I'd say that while Seth and Titania are outstanding early game units who are merely very good in the late game, Edelgard is an outstanding late game unit who is merely very good in the early game.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing that Edelgard's earlygame is good. In addition to what you said, there's the fact that her 10+65% charm lets her land gambits which other units can't (only Ferdinand comes close, due to his personal), and then she can reasonably get early Weight-3 (by Chapter 3, even) to start doubling slower enemies.

Your last paragraph is a good summary. Edelgard's advantage is that her earlygame is better than Seth/Titania's lategame; Edelgard is the best unit early, whereas they're not the best units late (still good, but I think it's fair to say that they're surpassed by fliers, for instance, as well as one or two other cavalry units who surpass them in stats). But conversely, Seth/Titania are really, really good early, in an "utterly trivializes maps" way. I don't think Edelgard quite reaches that point, although your comments about how her having "concentration of force to the exact point it's needed" are definitely good ones. The abillity to gain extra actions as needed to resolve a particularly tough situation is incredibly good; I know in an earlier thread we discussed the idea that skills which "win more" are easily overrated; Raging Storm is good because it's the exact opposite, able to turn losses into wins. Its only downside is the fact that you do have to ration its five uses prior to fighting the Titanus in Chapter 16 (or grind for more).

I'm a bit less high on Robin than many people, I think, because Robin isn't your best unit early (or even close; Fred wins key stats by like 7-8 points), and later on, while s/he's definitely the best, it's not by a massive margin; assuming their best build is Nosferatu spam (you can argue this, but it's how I broke Lunatic at least), then it's not like there's a massive difference between Robin, Morgan, Tharja, etc... or at least, I didn't find there to be one.

[Jotari]

33 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit less high on Robin than many people, I think, because Robin isn't your best unit early (or even close; Fred wins key stats by like 7-8 points), and later on, while s/he's definitely the best, it's not by a massive margin; assuming their best build is Nosferatu spam (you can argue this, but it's how I broke Lunatic at least), then it's not like there's a massive difference between Robin, Morgan, Tharja, etc... or at least, I didn't find there to be one.

My method for cheesing Lunatic+ invovled agonizing through the first few chapters and then buying my endgame longbook units, so I haven't done a Robin spam, but from what I understand of the typical strategy for beating Lunatic+, it isn't just Robin's ability to use Nosferatu. More critically, it's their unofficial personal skill that gives Robin increased exp which makes them from significantly faster than any other unit allowing for a snowball. I guess Morgan could theoretically  do this too with better eventual stats, but for that you need to actually get Morgan.

[FailWood]

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm a bit less high on Robin than many people, I think, because Robin isn't your best unit early (or even close; Fred wins key stats by like 7-8 points), and later on, while s/he's definitely the best, it's not by a massive margin; assuming their best build is Nosferatu spam (you can argue this, but it's how I broke Lunatic at least), then it's not like there's a massive difference between Robin, Morgan, Tharja, etc... or at least, I didn't find there to be one.

I've always felt that Robin could close the gap between him/her and Fredrick quickly because of the sizeable EXP boost from Veteran (and quite easily with a Defense boon).  I've done some male only playthroughs recently, and Fredrick's stats would start causing him to fall behind as early as chapter 12 (the start of the Valm arc) whereas Robin would continue to get stronger at a fairly quick rate.  While Fredrick starts strong, he falls off pretty hard.

Edited December 26, 2021 by FailWood

[Dark Holy Elf]

19 minutes ago, FailWood said:

I've always felt that Robin could close the gap between him/her and Fredrick quickly because of the sizeable EXP boost from Veteran (and quite easily with a Defense boon).  I've done some male only playthroughs recently, and Fredrick's stats would start causing him to fall behind as early as chapter 12 (the start of the Valm arc) whereas Robin would continue to get stronger at a fairly quick rate.  While Fredrick starts strong, he falls off pretty hard.

Oh, I completely agree. If you want to argue Robin > Frederick overall (as seems the common opinion) based on how much better Robin is in the Valm and Grima arcs, I think that's very fair. I even agree, though with some reservations (Frederick is certainly more essential, though IMO not as good). But in a comparison with units like Sigurd/Seth/Titania, it stands out to me that Robin actually spends some being badly outclassed by someone else on the team, which I find is enough to be disqualifying in a race for "best unit in the entire series".

[Alastor15243]

17 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Oh, I completely agree. If you want to argue Robin > Frederick overall (as seems the common opinion) based on how much better Robin is in the Valm and Grima arcs, I think that's very fair. I even agree, though with some reservations (Frederick is certainly more essential, though IMO not as good). But in a comparison with units like Sigurd/Seth/Titania, it stands out to me that Robin actually spends some being badly outclassed by someone else on the team, which I find is enough to be disqualifying in a race for "best unit in the entire series".

Has anyone ever attempted to beat Lunatic+ no-grind without Robin? Or without Frederick? I seriously doubt that the claim that only one is essential is an accurate assessment, but I don't know if that's been tested.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Robin is not required for Lunatic(+). This shouldn't require proof; s/he obviously isn't needed to get past the early maps, and once you're past the early maps you increasingly get a lot of options. Robin's not the only person you can make into an immortal Nosfertank, just the easiest choice. And there are other ways to break Lunatic besides.

https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/8a3exb/frederick_solos_lunatic_about_as_easily_as_robin/

(The topic title may be going a bit too far, but there's your proof of no-Robin or close enough; the screenshots linked have them with 6 battles and 0 victories; not hard to imagine that could have been 0 battles if that had been a priority for the player.)

On the other hand I think Frederick is essential for Chapters 1-2 on the hardest difficulty, at least without ridiculous RNG luck, but if anyone has ever managed it without him I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[Vicious Sal]

5 hours ago, Alastor15243 said:

Has anyone ever attempted to beat Lunatic+ no-grind without Robin? Or without Frederick? I seriously doubt that the claim that only one is essential is an accurate assessment, but I don't know if that's been tested.

Not sure about +, but regular lunatic has been done on 0%growths.

[ping]

I don't think Titania is even the best character in PoR, honestly. BEXP diminishes her level advantage fairly quickly once it's available, and once other units promote, they've caught up with Titania stat-wise, as well (20/1 Oscar is roughly on par with */10 Titania, even without an Ike A support). In comparison, SacSto doesn't let its growth units catch up with Seth nearly as quickly, and to make a similar comparison, 20/1 Pala!Franz has +1 Spd, but -3 Str, -2 Def and -5 Res compared to */10 Seth.

Ranking Marcia, Jill, and Titania probably comes down to how you weigh things personally, since Titania really does wreck the earlygame to a hilarious degree, but I think Seth's advantage over Titania is pretty substantial.

And yeah, Seth is my pick out of the games I'm confident enough to make a call about (BinBla through NMotE). I've played PoR without Titania and it's more slow and annoying than really tough, while not using Seth makes SacSto actually quite tough.

[FailWood]

On 12/24/2021 at 11:22 PM, Alastor15243 said:

What? But the description explicitly says the attack has to land.

 

On 12/25/2021 at 12:07 AM, Dark Holy Elf said:

It does indeed, but the description is incorrect. Test it yourself if you don't believe me.

The description is indeed incorrect.  I used Raging Storm, missed with it, and it gave me the Galeforce effect anyway.  That bug had to have come up after one of the updates, because I swear to God during my first Crimson Flower playthrough I didn't get the effect when I missed with it back then (which was before Male Byleth had his voice changed).

Sorry for the late follow up to this, @DarkHolyElf.  Took me some time to test it because Part 1 is a slog.

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/24/2021 at 9:55 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

The bolded part is incorrect for what it's worth.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 10:22 PM, Alastor15243 said:

What? But the description explicitly says the attack has to land.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 11:07 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

It does indeed, but the description is incorrect. Test it yourself if you don't believe me.

Sounds like a programming error to me. That's about the only way I can explain it.

On 12/24/2021 at 9:41 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Units like Seth, Sigurd, and Robin have gotten hyped up a lot in this thread so far. But how can they be called the "best in the series" when each of them is only able to trivialize one game? As such, my vote is for Palla. Her greatness in Mystery of the Emblem and its DS remake are recognized far and wide. But from what I hear, she's among the best units in Gaiden, and at least decent in FE1 as well. She's great in the respective remakes, too, with which I have personal experience. For being a good-to-excellent unit in nearly half the series, Palla is the one garnering my vote.

I dunno - the only experience I've had with her that I can recall is in Shadows of Valentia, and she didn't exactly impress me there (though it might have been bad luck on my part).

On 12/25/2021 at 1:22 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I know in an earlier thread we discussed the idea that skills which "win more" are easily overrated; Raging Storm is good because it's the exact opposite, able to turn losses into wins. Its only downside is the fact that you do have to ration its five uses prior to fighting the Titanus in Chapter 16 (or grind for more).

Speaking of, what comes to mind for such skills in FE games? I remember lenticular mentioning Defiant Crit as such. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sounds like a programming error to me. That's about the only way I can explain it.

Such things can happen in a few ways:

• The description notes the intended behaviour, but the game doesn't work that way due to a programming error (i.e. your guess)
• The skill works as intended from a programming end, but its effect was miscommunicated to the person who wrote the description, or the person who wrote the description misunderstood
• The incorrect description was introduced by the localization

I can't think of a huge number of Fire Emblem examples but they're not rare in video games overall (Final Fantasy has a lot, for an example I'm familiar with). It's generally worth taking descriptions with a grain of salt until you see evidence of them yourself. (This is why I have a very low opinion of things like Tellius!Shade. Does it actually do anything? If so, how potent is its effect? Nobody seems to know!)

Regarding your other question I think Defiant Crit is a good example. I could probably think about more, but that feels a bit off-topic for this thread.

16 hours ago, FailWood said:

Sorry for the late follow up to this, @DarkHolyElf.

Please don't feel you need apologize for a late followup over Christmas of all times. 😛 

On 12/26/2021 at 12:42 AM, pong said:

I don't think Titania is even the best character in PoR, honestly. BEXP diminishes her level advantage fairly quickly once it's available, and once other units promote, they've caught up with Titania stat-wise, as well (20/1 Oscar is roughly on par with */10 Titania, even without an Ike A support). In comparison, SacSto doesn't let its growth units catch up with Seth nearly as quickly, and to make a similar comparison, 20/1 Pala!Franz has +1 Spd, but -3 Str, -2 Def and -5 Res compared to */10 Seth.

[...] I've played PoR without Titania and it's more slow and annoying than really tough, while not using Seth makes SacSto actually quite tough.

Mm, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that growth units don't catch up as quickly in SS. PoR actually has a less punishing exp formula for higher-levelled units, both for kills and bonus exp. It's not a huge difference, but some old notes I have from a project of seeing what happens when you give everyone equal exp has Titania at 9 when Oscar reaches 21, while Seth is only at 7 when Franz reaches 20/1. I think your statement makes sense, but only if you're assuming (which you seem to be) that you preferentially give bonus exp to the growth unit instead of Titania. Which, well, you can do that, but you can give more kills to growth units, too.

One thing I will say in Seth's favour is that SS is straight-up a shorter game (both in terms of raw number of chapters and in terms of the level characters typically reach without grinding), which also means Seth has relatively more time with a significant level advantage. That's definitely a big thing in his favour.

Although one place I definitely disagree is that last statement. When I first played both games, I was young and stupid and tried to use jagens as little as possible. In SS I had no problems doing this because the earlygame is so forgiving; SS only really starts showing teeth in the route-split IMO, outside of chapter 6's fog and soft time-limit. On the other hand, PoR hard has much more front-loaded challenge [IMO the hardest part of the game is before you get access to bonus exp and overpowered supports] and actually kinda broke me of my "don't use the jagen" mindset - I just had too much trouble keeping Soren and Rhys alive in Chapter 4 with its few chokepoints otherwise. Obviously your experience was different, but that's how it was for me.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - the only experience I've had with her that I can recall is in Shadows of Valentia, and she didn't exactly impress me there (though it might have been bad luck on my part).

 

Falcoknight is just a really good class in that game (and it's even better in the original Gaiden). It gets effective damage against Terrors, which are the bulk of Celica's enemy load in Act IV onward. Plus, flying mobility is great when it comes to desert and swamp maps. Bows may be a problem, but few enemy types use them. And it's worth noting that enemies using the generic Bow aren't even dealing effective damage.

As for Palla in particular, her base stats don't especially stand out. But she has solid growths in Strength and Skill. Moreover, she's just 4 levels from promoting to Falcoknight, which can boost her Speed and physical bulk. She's not as broken here as she was in Mystery or its remake, but I'd still count Palla as at least a top 5 unit in Celica's army.

[Use the Falchion]

My gut-instinct was Robin, with emphasis on F!Robin. Robin has access to nearly every skill in the main game they show up in, with F!Robin gaining access to Galeforce (which, while it doesn't matter without grinding, is still a valid point IMO). Meanwhile, M!Robin gets Resistance+10 and Aggressor, two phenomenal skills. 

The reason Robin beats out someone like Seth comes down to two main points IMO - Maleability and growth speed. Seth and other units like him start out strong, but they take time and resources to level up and keep on pace - it's HARD to level them up, particularly in the early-game. Meanwhile Robin doesn't have that problem at all. (I mean, unless you're playing Lunatic or Lunatic+ from what I hear.) The second is that Seth and Titania and other units are trapped in their main class. Yes, that class is a mounted one, but it's all they can do or be. Meanwhile, Robin can be mounted, flying, infantry, armor, or some hybrid. This also comes into play with stats as well. A unit like Corrin may be able to change into any class, but they'll always be best as a hybrid unit, since the dragonstones in Fates are Magic-based (I think - I always do more damage with them when I'm a magical Corrin than not). Robin isn't limited in that way. Yes, Robin's default is a hybrid unit, but players can build a purely physical one with as much ease as they can a purely magical one. Healers and Rallybots aren't off the table either. 

Morgan also gets a special shoutout, with particular attention payed to M!Morgan who can have Galeforce, Rightful KIng, Aggressor, AND Resistance+10 with a proc skill. It's certainly not the best build, but it's a darn good one IMO.

[LJ_Reflet]

51 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

A unit like Corrin may be able to change into any class, but they'll always be best as a hybrid unit, since the dragonstones in Fates are Magic-based (I think - I always do more damage with them when I'm a magical Corrin than not). Robin isn't limited in that way. Yes, Robin's default is a hybrid unit, but players can build a purely physical one with as much ease as they can a purely magical one. Healers and Rallybots aren't off the table either. 

I kinda wanted to bring up Corrin as well, since they're really strong for their game, but due to the difference in mechanics between Awakening and Fates, Corrin's a lot more limited/controlled than Robin.

I wouldn't say Corrin's limited to a hybrid build, since they still retain the boon/bane system from Awakening and Corrin can excel in either a physical or magical class depending on the build you choose. The Nohr Prince(ss) line is definitely hybrid-oriented, but Corrin has the option to reclass into whatever class you want based on the talent you choose. Dragonstones are also vastly inferior to other weapon options (ie. Yato) due to the fact that it can't double, so a build revolving around Dragonstones is sub-optimal for Corrin.

Now unlike Robin, Corrin doesn't naturally have access to every single class in the game from the get-go and needs to build support with other characters to reclass into other classes outside their talent. So in that respect, you can say that Corrin isn't as versatile.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I would say Corrin is as versatile as Robin. Since they can pilfer classes from units with an A support, and get one reclass of the player's choice besides, it's hard to imagine a reasonable build they can't do. If anything, the limits on Second Seals in the first half of Awakening (there are only two, and only one before Chapter 12) are at least as restrictive as Corrin needing to build A supports for their third class and beyond.

Corrin isn't as good as Robin because nothing in Fates is as overpowered as Nosferatu, and because units like Camilla and Ryoma just outclass them in terms of not only starting stats (similar to Frederick vs Robin) but also in terms of unique traits not easily matched (e.g. Ryoma's Raijinto and Camilla's +5 effective level giving her earlier access to high-end skills). As a resuilt, Robin is commonly considered the best unit in Awakening, but Corrin is not generally considered the best unit in either Birthright or Conquest (though there's a case for it in Revelation, albeit I don't think I agree).

[lenticular]

On 12/26/2021 at 8:42 AM, pong said:

I don't think Titania is even the best character in PoR, honestly. BEXP diminishes her level advantage fairly quickly once it's available, and once other units promote, they've caught up with Titania stat-wise, as well (20/1 Oscar is roughly on par with */10 Titania, even without an Ike A support). In comparison, SacSto doesn't let its growth units catch up with Seth nearly as quickly, and to make a similar comparison, 20/1 Pala!Franz has +1 Spd, but -3 Str, -2 Def and -5 Res compared to */10 Seth.

I tend to see bexp more as generally a point in Titania's favour, and why I would probably rank her marginally higher than Seth overall. The two main arguments against using early-game prepromotes is that they level up too slowly and they take needed xp away from other units, leaving them under-leveled. Neither of these problems really apply when you throw bonus experience into the mix.

It's trivially easy to level up Titania by throwing bexp at her. This is PoR bexp scaling that we're talking about, where going from --/19 to --/20 only costs about 5 times as much bexp as going from unpromoted 1 to 2, as opposed to RD bexp scaling where it costs 20 times as much. If you do level her up as you go along then she'll keep her status as unstoppable battle goddess pretty much indefinitely.

Alternatively, if you just want to use her to trivialise the early game, then you can do so without having to worry that your other units are lagging behind where they're meant to be. You can just save up your bexp and then throw it all on Ike as and when you need it. Or on Oscar, Marcia, Jill, or whoever else you want to use.

[Vicious Sal]

21 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I tend to see bexp more as generally a point in Titania's favour, and why I would probably rank her marginally higher than Seth overall. The two main arguments against using early-game prepromotes is that they level up too slowly and they take needed xp away from other units, leaving them under-leveled. Neither of these problems really apply when you throw bonus experience into the mix.

It's trivially easy to level up Titania by throwing bexp at her. This is PoR bexp scaling that we're talking about, where going from --/19 to --/20 only costs about 5 times as much bexp as going from unpromoted 1 to 2, as opposed to RD bexp scaling where it costs 20 times as much. If you do level her up as you go along then she'll keep her status as unstoppable battle goddess pretty much indefinitely.

Alternatively, if you just want to use her to trivialise the early game, then you can do so without having to worry that your other units are lagging behind where they're meant to be. You can just save up your bexp and then throw it all on Ike as and when you need it. Or on Oscar, Marcia, Jill, or whoever else you want to use.

To add on to this, bosses still grant Titania roughly 60 exp or so. So she's easily leveling up at least once every two maps.

Also, shoutout to M! and F! Kris. Not my vote, but big balls of stats they are.

[ping]

18 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Mm, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that growth units don't catch up as quickly in SS. PoR actually has a less punishing exp formula for higher-levelled units, both for kills and bonus exp.

53 minutes ago, lenticular said:

I tend to see bexp more as generally a point in Titania's favour, and why I would probably rank her marginally higher than Seth overall. The two main arguments against using early-game prepromotes is that they level up too slowly and they take needed xp away from other units, leaving them under-leveled. Neither of these problems really apply when you throw bonus experience into the mix.

Funny, I never registered how kind the BEXP curve is for promoted units. I always automatically focus it on whatever growth unit(s) I'm planning to use and Titania only really gets some rigged level-ups when she's close-ish to 100 XP at the end of a map. Good point in favour of Titania, I agree.

I will say that BEXP also makes it easier, not just cheaper, to level up your Oscar, Kieran, or Marcia, compared to Franz, Vanessa, or Cormag. In SacSto, you do have to actively look for kills, especially for your flyers, while Kieran and Marcia can be heavy carries basically one or two maps after their respective joining map. And I'll say again that I find that Seth compares better to promoted growth units than Titania:

I don't think there's much of a difference between Oscar and Titania despite her having the lead in most areas - but Oscar still doubles everything, even has slightly better physical bulk, and can use forged Steel Axes and Hand Axes, so Titania's better Axe rank isn't that important. Compared to that, Seth still has a notable lead in Str and Def over Franz (and like the PoR comparison, I don't think there's a ton of enemies that Franz doubles and Seth does not), as well as more impactful weapon ranks with his access to Silver Lances and Swords.

20/1 Franz isn't a "optimal" character unless you're playing for post game, of course, so feel free to read those as his 16/5 stats or whatever

18 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Although one place I definitely disagree is that last statement. When I first played both games, I was young and stupid and tried to use jagens as little as possible. In SS I had no problems doing this because the earlygame is so forgiving; SS only really starts showing teeth in the route-split IMO, outside of chapter 6's fog and soft time-limit. On the other hand, PoR hard has much more front-loaded challenge [IMO the hardest part of the game is before you get access to bonus exp and overpowered supports] and actually kinda broke me of my "don't use the jagen" mindset - I just had too much trouble keeping Soren and Rhys alive in Chapter 4 with its few chokepoints otherwise. Obviously your experience was different, but that's how it was for me.

Fair, difficulty has always a degree of subjectiveness.

It's been a couple months since I did the Titania-less run, but iirc, Gatrie pivoting and Shinon absorbing some attacks when needed makes ch.4 fairly safe, although I think it was the one map where my weaponless Titania got attacked once because I did use her for bodyblocking . Very slow and annoying because you don't have Titania killing multiple enemies on EP, but fairly safe.

I'm a stubborn late-promoter in the GBA games (not Lv.20, but still), which certainly makes Seth more important in the first couple chapters after the route split, but I think he's always pretty important in Eirika's first map, in order to save the house to the west. Other characters have trouble charging ahead fast enough without dying, in my experience.

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

To add on to this, bosses still grant Titania roughly 60 exp or so. So she's easily leveling up at least once every two maps.

Seth still gets 40+ XP per boss, so two levels per map is quire realistic for him, too. The Entombed even gives him a full 100 XP, I believe. I don't want to make too confident a statement about Seth's XP lead compared to Titania's, since I simply never dumped my BEXP on Titania, but Seth still gains a lot from taking boss kills, as well.