Possible unpopular opinion: Some of the difficulties from past entries were not legit. Them being gone are for the best.

[henrymidfields]

Many people say that newer Pokemon games lack the challenge of the older games. But do they really? The more I had a look back at RBY and GSC, the more I believe that the difficulties there are for the wrong reasons, the wrong kind that is essentially a rigged game again st the player. And this is coming from a veteran that played Pokemon since the 90s.

It's not like Gen 1-2 Gym Leaders are fricking beasts. Their movepools are pathetically predictable (Falker's Pidgeotto is one exception), and their AI is just as bad. What other game would have the E4 spam Extreme Speed over and over while your Pokemon is chipping their HP away? Sabrina was only difficult because of Ghost and Bug being awful counters. Other Gym Leaders like Whitney are only difficult because of a lack of variety in viable Pokemon choices available to you in general - and maybe some lack of reusable and good TMs back then, and levelling up being a pain in the ass in general. Lance outright cheated with his Aerodactyl learning Barrier, and bringing in multiple Dragonites that can all be 1/2-shotted by Ice Beam. Of all the Gym Leaders I faced when I was 12, only Falkner and Misty in GSC had some semblance of good trainership with actual strategy, and even then, there was the issue of Mareep being still inaccessible by the time you challenge the former, and the latter still had three Pokemon weak to Electric types (and her Rain Dance could even backfire to one of them).

Heck, you arguably still have examples of (albeit isolated) of artificial difficulty as late as BW1. With Elesa, Ice Beam isn't an available option against her Emolga, or any pre-Championship opponent unlike past games. (And I remember reading that Emolga has a higher BST than many other Pokemon available.) With Cilan, you can't access Route 3 and thus the Pidove line before facing him. And don't get me started on Ghetsis's underlevelled Hydreigon (and Hydreigon in general evolving unusually late). Not to mention the lack of Fire Types plauging Flint... BW2 and Platinum alleviated this with the availability of past gen Pokemon.

XY got rid of the artificial difficulty entirely by making various Pokemon available from the get-go, although it admittedly also got rid of the legit difficulty - particularly Korrina. Even with that, though, Viola and Grant threw some curveballs with dual-typings to address at least one of their common weaknesses. The latter also had strong attack moves made borderline busted by both abilities and STAB, and brought in a Dragon type much at a much earlier stage than you'd expect in a Pokemon game. It's a massive shame they didn't continue with that with later Pokemon (I was fully expecting Korrina's Pokemon with Dark-type moves shutting down my Ghost-types), and even then I had Clemont's Emolga switching over to his Heliolisk and Grass-knotting my unsuspecting Ground Type.

If you still think older games had the challenge you needed, then well, I can't say anything more. But I think it is time to stop pretending that older games were the gold standard in difficulty. They're not. To varying extents, the older games have relied on artificial ways of raising difficulties. Them being gone in the newer games are actually a good thing. The real problem? Actually making a difficulty option (and not just toggling Exp Share on or off) and make Gym Leaders there actually able to counter their common weaknesses consistently. And that's what's been lacking.

Edited January 5, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Punished Dayni]

5 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

It's not like Gen 1-2 Gym Leaders are fricking beasts. Their movepools are pathetically predictable (Falker's Pidgeotto is one exception), and their AI is just as bad. What other game would have the E4 spam Extreme Speed over and over while your Pokemon is chipping their HP away? Sabrina was only difficult because of Ghost and Bug being awful counters. Other Gym Leaders like Whitney are only difficult because of a lack of variety in viable Pokemon choices available to you in general - and maybe some lack of reusable and good TMs back then, and levelling up being a pain in the ass in general. Lance outright cheated with his Aerodactyl learning Barrier, and bringing in multiple Dragonites that can all be 1/2-shotted by Ice Beam. Of all the Gym Leaders I faced when I was 12, only Falkner and Misty in GSC had some semblance of good trainership with actual strategy, and even then, there was the issue of Mareep being still inaccessible by the time you challenge the former, and the latter still had three Pokemon weak to Electric types (and her Rain Dance could even backfire to one of them).

I'm not going to argue Jhoto is an overall challenging region (ignoring Lance near ending my nuzlocke, though I also beat Whitney while losing nothing), Gen 1 especially has highly exploitable AI and it's very much the balance of "certain types are strong therefore they are" that has been kind of stated in the early days of Pokemon which plague Psychic in particular early on.

In Gen 1 you can counter Lance's Dragonite with poison types just attacking while they spam Agility forever as the AI doesn't get to run out of PP in those fights.

Also, Mareep is only unavailable in Crystal. The northernmost patch in Route 32 is available before Falkner and in HGSS there's the Primo egg as well, but that requires knowing the code. Course, Pidegotto has Mud Slap as a counter too.

5 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

Heck, you arguably still have examples of (albeit isolated) of artificial difficulty as late as BW1. With Elesa, Ice Beam isn't an available option against her Emolga, or any pre-Championship opponent unlike past games. (And I remember reading that Emolga has a higher BST than many other Pokemon available.) With Cilan, you can't access Route 3 and thus the Pidove line before facing him. And don't get me started on Ghetsis's underlevelled Hydreigon (and Hydreigon in general evolving unusually late). Not to mention the lack of Fire Types plauging Flint... BW2 and Platinum alleviated this with the availability of past gen Pokemon.

Elesa is a rough boss, but there are at least Rock options (though there are the accuracy concerns), Ice beam would demolish them this early and which games are Ice Beam in early other than HGSS? (I checked, outside of arcades (in all the first 4 gens) there's Gen 1 in Celadon mall and that's it, all the others are past the 6th gym in terms of availability, barring BDSP now with Veilstone Mall selling it)

As for the C bros, the whole argument is "Use the monkey!", what is to be done for the other two then? I'm saying in this case the limited availability is a tutorial all it's own. Admittedly there at least would be options in Route 3/Wellspring Cave with Blitzle/Drilbur or Roggenrolla.

And Ghetsis.... Fuck Ghetsis.

5 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

XY got rid of the artificial difficulty entirely by making various Pokemon available from the get-go, although it admittedly also got rid of the legit difficulty - particularly Korrina. Even with that, though, Viola and Grant threw some curveballs with dual-typings to address at least one of their common weaknesses. The latter also had strong attack moves made borderline busted by both abilities and STAB, and brought in a Dragon type much at a much earlier stage than you'd expect in a Pokemon game. It's a massive shame they didn't continue with that with later Pokemon (I was fully expecting Korrina's Pokemon with Dark-type moves shutting down my Ghost-types), and even then I had Clemont's Emolga switching over to his Heliolisk and Grass-knotting my unsuspecting Ground Type.

I'm going to be honest, I blank on XY. I don't recall being challenged much outside of Megas as someone intentionally not using them. And I wasn't over their level either, just to clarify.

There could be merit in seeing if I'm missing something, but if I did and nothing changed what would that mean?

At least in ORAS I specifically remember the dick move of Steven using a Megatagross after the whole game hadn't barring the Maqua bosses.

[Eltosian Kadath]

34 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Many people say that newer Pokemon games lack the challenge of the older games. But do they really? The more I had a look back at RBY and GSC, the more I believe that the difficulties there are for the wrong reasons, the wrong kind that is essentially a rigged game again st the player. And this is coming from a veteran that played Pokemon since the 90s.

Yeah most people remember the older games as more difficult in their minds thanks to having played them as children...and having played them when information was less available. Fun fact Gen 1 gave you no information about how powerful or accurate moves were.

 

33 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Sabrina was only difficult because of Ghost and Bug being awful counters.

Sabrina in Gen 1 had a lot more working for her than simply Ghost and Bug types being awful...

 

33 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Other Gym Leaders like Whitney are only difficult because of a lack of variety in viable Pokemon choices available to you in general - and maybe some lack of reusable and good TMs back then, and levelling up being a pain in the ass in general. Lance outright cheated with his Aerodactyl learning Barrier, and bringing in multiple Dragonites that can all be 1/2-shotted by Ice Beam. Of all the Gym Leaders I faced when I was 12, only Falkner and Misty in GSC had some semblance of good trainership with actual strategy, and even then, there was the issue of Mareep being still inaccessible by the time you challenge the former, and the latter still had three Pokemon weak to Electric types (and her Rain Dance could even backfire to one of them).

Heck, you arguably still have examples of (albeit isolated) of artificial difficulty as late as BW1. With Elesa, Ice Beam isn't an available option against her Emolga, or any pre-Championship opponent unlike past games. (And I remember reading that Emolga has a higher BST than many other Pokemon available.) With Cilan, you can't access Route 3 and thus the Pidove line before facing him. And don't get me started on Ghetsis's underlevelled Hydreigon (and Hydreigon in general evolving unusually late). Not to mention the lack of Fire Types plauging Flint... BW2 and Platinum alleviated this with the availability of past gen Pokemon.

Although I don't agree with the idea that constraints on available pokemon, and moves are some kind of artificial difficulty. To use one example you mention not having access to Mareep for Falkner, and not having access to the standard super effectivetype makes you look elsewhere for an edge, for example going with a flying type and ghost type pivot (both of which are readily available by then) to PP stall it, or going for the rock type advantage with Geodude instead. The constraints make for more interesting challenges.

 

36 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Actually making a difficulty option (and not just toggling Exp Share on or off) and make Gym Leaders there actually able to counter their common weaknesses consistently. And that's what's been lacking.

Kind of a shame Black 2 and White 2 made unlocking Easy and Challenge mode so bizarre and esoteric, otherwise people would remember about them more... or have actually played them.

 

1 hour ago, Dayni said:

 

Also, Mareep is only unavailable in Crystal. The northernmost patch in Route 32 is available before Falkner and in HGSS there's the Primo egg as well, but that requires knowing the code. Course, Pidegotto has Mud Slap as a counter too.

That northern most patch of grass on route 32 was added in HGSS, in the original Gold and Silver you were blocked from accessing any encounter on that route before beating Falkner.

Spoiler

not sure if the images are showing up, but its just the two maps side by side.

 

[Jotari]

I'm going to throw out a rather strange idea here for Pokemon difficulty. Remove items as an asset of the game. You can keep held items, but remove hyper potions and revives and stuff. All they serve to do is make it impossible for the player to lose, and also make it just annoying to fight t he AI that uses them. This would make trekking between places in the main campiagn legitimately dangerous and would require taking down enemy gym leaders to have as much planning and strategy as goes into fighting a real player. Items are removed from stuff like Battle Frontier and those difficulty modes are usually considered great.

[Armchair General]

What happened to grinding, guys?

After all, it's an RPG and I barely had any problems with Pokemon. And while I did start with Diamond when I was in high school, I barely had any problems with it.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Armchair General

[Eltosian Kadath]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm going to throw out a rather strange idea here for Pokemon difficulty. Remove items as an asset of the game. You can keep held items, but remove hyper potions and revives and stuff. All they serve to do is make it impossible for the player to lose, and also make it just annoying to fight t he AI that uses them. This would make trekking between places in the main campiagn legitimately dangerous and would require taking down enemy gym leaders to have as much planning and strategy as goes into fighting a real player. Items are removed from stuff like Battle Frontier and those difficulty modes are usually considered great.

The classic hardcore Nuzlocke rules show this to be fairly true. For those curious that means battles on Set mode, you can't use items in battle (other than pokeballs in valid encounters, and held items), and you can't use pokemon with a level higher than the next gym leader's (or last Elite Four member's) ace for each section of the game, on top of the standard Nuzlocke rules.

[henrymidfields]

16 hours ago, Dayni said:

I'm not going to argue Jhoto is an overall challenging region (ignoring Lance near ending my nuzlocke, though I also beat Whitney while losing nothing), Gen 1 especially has highly exploitable AI and it's very much the balance of "certain types are strong therefore they are" that has been kind of stated in the early days of Pokemon which plague Psychic in particular early on.

In Gen 1 you can counter Lance's Dragonite with poison types just attacking while they spam Agility forever as the AI doesn't get to run out of PP in those fights.

 

Yes, thanks for reminding me about the specifics of Lance's Dragonite. Just goes to show how much you can break that game.

16 hours ago, Dayni said:

Elesa is a rough boss, but there are at least Rock options (though there are the accuracy concerns), Ice beam would demolish them this early and which games are Ice Beam in early other than HGSS? (I checked, outside of arcades (in all the first 4 gens) there's Gen 1 in Celadon mall and that's it, all the others are past the 6th gym in terms of availability, barring BDSP now with Veilstone Mall selling it)

What would stop you from just outright buying the coins at the Game Corners and get yourself the TM? I did this once with Ice Punch in GSC, and never regretted it. (Ah, I also remember Ice Punch was also a thing.) On the other hand, I wonder if the wild Sandiles constantly demolishing my Pokemon in Route 4 was an unsubtle hint that he was recommended against Elesa and onwards?

16 hours ago, Dayni said:

As for the C bros, the whole argument is "Use the monkey!", what is to be done for the other two then? I'm saying in this case the limited availability is a tutorial all it's own. Admittedly there at least would be options in Route 3/Wellspring Cave with Blitzle/Drilbur or Roggenrolla.

Admittedly that is true.

16 hours ago, Dayni said:

And Ghetsis.... Fuck Ghetsis.

They could have at least raised his level to be 65 and raise all the trainers prior to him accordingly. It'll also smooth over the post-game area's trainers'/wild Pokemon's levels which are around that to 70+ IIRC.

15 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Sabrina in Gen 1 had a lot more working for her than simply Ghost and Bug types being awful...

Forgot that there was also the special split with Calm Mind. Either way, Psychic was too busted back then.

15 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

That northern most patch of grass on route 32 was added in HGSS, in the original Gold and Silver you were blocked from accessing any encounter on that route before beating Falkner.

Almost forgot about that one. So even GF devs themselves thought it was too limiting in GSC...

1 hour ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

The classic hardcore Nuzlocke rules show this to be fairly true. For those curious that means battles on Set mode, you can't use items in battle (other than pokeballs in valid encounters, and held items), and you can't use pokemon with a level higher than the next gym leader's (or last Elite Four member's) ace for each section of the game, on top of the standard Nuzlocke rules.

I've been doing this in Gym Battles since XY (though I accidentally failed this with Alistair in SwSh). Makes you think of your movepools and the like. Maybe higher difficulties for Gym Battles should be similar to standard VGC rules.

Edited January 6, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Lack of Pokemon available to the player isn't "artificial difficulty", and it's frankly absurd that you would even suggest it is. Is not having Xander in Chapter 10 of Conquest "artificial difficulty"? Or not getting any fliers in the early Dawn Brigade chapters of Radiant Dawn? Part of a game's design is choosing which tools should be available to the player at a given time. It's not necessarily bad design to hold out on making some such resources available until after passing a particular checkpoint.

Mind you, there are senses in which the earlier Pokemon games can be considered quite easy. Opposing trainers almost never switch out, so it's possible to, say, paralyze their lead, Flash them down to minimum accuracy, set up a sweeper, and go to town. I myself used this strategy to sweep Red with a Level 50-something Donphan. That said, I enjoyed the strategy involved in actually setting up a sweep of a much higher-level team, even if the actual procedure was fairly tedious.

Re: Gym Leaders, I think the answer is in establishing team synergy. A Rock-type leader could run a Sand team, for instance, while an Electric-type leader sets up Electric Terrain. One Gym Leader could combine hazards with phazing, while yet another pairs Swagger with Foul Play. Pair this all with sensible leveling control and Mon/move access, and I think we're good to go.

13 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm going to throw out a rather strange idea here for Pokemon difficulty. Remove items as an asset of the game. You can keep held items, but remove hyper potions and revives and stuff. All they serve to do is make it impossible for the player to lose, and also make it just annoying to fight t he AI that uses them. This would make trekking between places in the main campiagn legitimately dangerous and would require taking down enemy gym leaders to have as much planning and strategy as goes into fighting a real player. Items are removed from stuff like Battle Frontier and those difficulty modes are usually considered great.

Do you mean no in-battle uses, or items not existing at all? Because I wouldn't be a fan of cutting them out entirely. Having to buy Potions and Revives is a form of resource management - if anything, I'd sooner they remove the Pokemon Centers. That said, a Pokemon game that's more strict with money would, in my opinion, be a welcome development. 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Do you mean no in-battle uses, or items not existing at all? Because I wouldn't be a fan of cutting them out entirely. Having to buy Potions and Revives is a form of resource management - if anything, I'd sooner they remove the Pokemon Centers. That said, a Pokemon game that's more strict with money would, in my opinion, be a welcome development. 

Initially I meant removing Potions and the like entirely from the game. I really don't feel like it is a resource management aspect given how much money the games typically give you and how little there is to spent it on until maybe some late game TMs (or buying loads of coins to just not play slots in early Gens). But I could see keeping items around for traversing the overworld and for using in wild Pokemon battles, but completely removing them from all trainer battles.

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Re: Gym Leaders, I think the answer is in establishing team synergy. A Rock-type leader could run a Sand team, for instance, while an Electric-type leader sets up Electric Terrain. One Gym Leader could combine hazards with phazing, while yet another pairs Swagger with Foul Play. Pair this all with sensible leveling control and Mon/move access, and I think we're good to go.

Another thing that could be done just to make gym battles feel more special and memorable, would be to have certain stage elements already set up in the battle. Like the Electric Terrain set up you just mentioned being in affect automatically in the Gym. Or a Gym where Trick Room is constantly active inside. This makes for a more distinctive part of the game and would make the gyms more challenging since they don't need to go to the effort to set up the strategies.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Jotari

[lenticular]

19 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm going to throw out a rather strange idea here for Pokemon difficulty. Remove items as an asset of the game. You can keep held items, but remove hyper potions and revives and stuff. All they serve to do is make it impossible for the player to lose, and also make it just annoying to fight t he AI that uses them. This would make trekking between places in the main campiagn legitimately dangerous and would require taking down enemy gym leaders to have as much planning and strategy as goes into fighting a real player. Items are removed from stuff like Battle Frontier and those difficulty modes are usually considered great.

The existence of battle items provides a nice pseudo difficulty option for the game. At their most basic level, Pokémon games need to be beatable by children so they've got to be pretty easy. "No battle items" as a self-imposed challenge run is easy to come up with and easy to keep track of, and provides enough of a bump to difficulty to be meaningful. If battle items were completely removed from the series, the games would probably end up being rebalanced to keep the overall difficulty level largely the same. Except that there wouldn't be the easy and obvious challenge run any more.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing, though, would be to have this officially codified as an optional difficulty setting, in the same way that set/switch exists as an option. It wouldn't really do a whole lot, but it would still be nice just as a way to remove temptation and/or to give the go ahead to play that way for people who would otherwise be nervous to try.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

The existence of battle items provides a nice pseudo difficulty option for the game. At their most basic level, Pokémon games need to be beatable by children so they've got to be pretty easy. "No battle items" as a self-imposed challenge run is easy to come up with and easy to keep track of, and provides enough of a bump to difficulty to be meaningful. If battle items were completely removed from the series, the games would probably end up being rebalanced to keep the overall difficulty level largely the same. Except that there wouldn't be the easy and obvious challenge run any more.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing, though, would be to have this officially codified as an optional difficulty setting, in the same way that set/switch exists as an option. It wouldn't really do a whole lot, but it would still be nice just as a way to remove temptation and/or to give the go ahead to play that way for people who would otherwise be nervous to try.

Well we are discussing difficulty here. If the answer is "well Pokemon isn't meant to be difficult" then it kind of shuts down the conversation entirely.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Initially I meant removing Potions and the like entirely from the game. I really don't feel like it is a resource management aspect given how much money the games typically give you and how little there is to spent it on until maybe some late game TMs (or buying loads of coins to just not play slots in early Gens). But I could see keeping items around for traversing the overworld and for using in wild Pokemon battles, but completely removing them from all trainer battles.

I wouldn't be a fan. Suddenly, the question of "can my team survive?" is one of "well, do they have any self-recovery moves?" Plus, it would make the game's setting feel implausibly hollow - what are the odds that nobody's invented a way to restore HP, outside of Pokemon Centers?

As far as battles go, I see that point, and know that some hack games do as much. Personally, thpugh, I wouldn't like to see the X Stat items totally disappear as an option. How about raising difficulty the other way - by making opposing trainers use items more often? Also giving opposing Pokemon held items.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Another thing that could be done just to make gym battles feel more special and memorable, would be to have certain stage elements already set up in the battle. Like the Electric Terrain set up you just mentioned being in affect automatically in the Gym. Or a Gym where Trick Room is constantly active inside. This makes for a more distinctive part of the game and would make the gyms more challenging since they don't need to go to the effort to set up the strategies.

Interesting idea. One thing I've thought of is "trainer powers" - say, each trainer has an ability that affects the battle. One such as "Raise Attack of all Fighting-types by one stage" could inspire team synergy. But so could those that set a "stage condition", like you suggest. Ooh, maybe the "Trick Room" gym could make it so that running is slower than walking?

[Punished Dayni]

5 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

What would stop you from just outright buying the coins at the Game Corners and get yourself the TM? I did this once with Ice Punch in GSC, and never regretted it. (Ah, I also remember Ice Punch was also a thing.) On the other hand, I wonder if the wild Sandiles constantly demolishing my Pokemon in Route 4 was an unsubtle hint that he was recommended against Elesa and onwards?

In HGSS it's the casino being replaced with Voltorb Flip. It's also limited by how much you have at the time, so there's that to watch for as well, though there are ways of ensuring you're able to get them quickly..

Drilbur was also an option for Elesa.

[henrymidfields]

11 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Lack of Pokemon available to the player isn't "artificial difficulty", and it's frankly absurd that you would even suggest it is. Is not having Xander in Chapter 10 of Conquest "artificial difficulty"? Or not getting any fliers in the early Dawn Brigade chapters of Radiant Dawn? Part of a game's design is choosing which tools should be available to the player at a given time. It's not necessarily bad design to hold out on making some such resources available until after passing a particular checkpoint.

Mind you, there are senses in which the earlier Pokemon games can be considered quite easy. Opposing trainers almost never switch out, so it's possible to, say, paralyze their lead, Flash them down to minimum accuracy, set up a sweeper, and go to town.

Apples and Oranges. FE's actually pretty basic in addressing strengths and weaknesses. You've got a handful of classes and weapons you can use, and positioning in the battle map is also a thing, so barring occasional cases like Henning in FE6, there's always one way or another against enemies. Most importantly, you actually have info of the enemy, so you actually can prepare for tgem.

Pokemon nowadays, you just cannot predict what the gym leaders have in terms of their Pokemon's abilities, movepools, and double-typings anymore. There are over 800 Pokemon now and dozens of possible movepools they could use, and unless if you have Bulbapedia open, you're just not going to know what you're up against. Your case and others mentioning your experience of the early gamed illustrates the point. Everything was basically predictable back then. Now, not so much. I'd very much prefer the available variety of Pokemon similar to ShSw, and just straight up make gym battles actually more strategic to make up the game's difficulty.

Edited January 6, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

11 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Apples and Oranges. FE's actually pretty basic in addressing strengths and weaknesses. You've got a handful of classes and weapons you can use, and positioning in the battle map is also a thing, so barring occasional cases like Henning in FE6, there's always one way or another against enemies. Most importantly, you actually have info of the enemy, so you actually can prepare for tgem.

Pokemon nowadays, you just cannot predict what the gym leaders have in terms of their Pokemon's abilities, movepools, and double-typings. There are over 800 Pokemon now, and unless if you have Bulbapedia open, you're just not going to know what you're up against. Your case and others mentioning your experience of the early gamed illustrates the point. Everything was basically predictable back then. Now, not so much.

Okay, but like... let's look at Gen II. Who expects Chuck to have a Poliwrath? What blind player even knows Steelix exists before facing Jasmine? And can the player who brings an Ice-type attacker to face Clair work around her Kingdra?

Even a predictable trainer, like Morty, is packing a Gengar. Try to use a Psychic-type or Ghost-type against him, it dies to Shadow Ball. And there are essentially no Dark-types available at that point in the game. The best you can hope for is Girafarig (not in Crystal LOL), or a Normal-type with Bite.

Anyway, maybe a Gym leader in one of the new games surprises you with an oddly-typed Mon, or one with great coverage. It doesn't matter. Your own Mons will "tough it out", surviving on 1 and getting bonus crits, because "they don't want to let you down". The affection mechanic undermines any attempt at balanced difficulty.

[lenticular]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well we are discussing difficulty here. If the answer is "well Pokemon isn't meant to be difficult" then it kind of shuts down the conversation entirely.

I'm not getting my point across. My point isn't that Pokémon must not have ways to play it that are difficult. My point is that Pokémon must have a way to play it that is easy. My point is that the difficult choice has to coexist alongside the easy choice. One way of doing that would be difficulty levels. Another is options like switch/set. Another is the inclusion of mechanics that make the game easier but are easily avoided by anyone who cares to challenge themself.

[henrymidfields]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Okay, but like... let's look at Gen II. Who expects Chuck to have a Poliwrath? What blind player even knows Steelix exists before facing Jasmine? And can the player who brings an Ice-type attacker to face Clair work around her Kingdra?

Even a predictable trainer, like Morty, is packing a Gengar. Try to use a Psychic-type or Ghost-type against him, it dies to Shadow Ball. And there are essentially no Dark-types available at that point in the game. The best you can hope for is Girafarig (not in Crystal LOL), or a Normal-type with Bite.

Anyway, maybe a Gym leader in one of the new games surprises you with an oddly-typed Mon, or one with great coverage. It doesn't matter. Your own Mons will "tough it out", surviving on 1 and getting bonus crits, because "they don't want to let you down". The affection mechanic undermines any attempt at balanced difficulty.

A Poliwrath I can expect if you've already played RBY. Point taken about Steelix. As for Morty, and lack of Dark types that's the shortcoming of Gen 2; they've didn't showcase the new Dark (and Steel) type as much as they should - and essentially repeated the similar problem with Sabrina, though perhaps not as bad. Heck, they didn't showcase Johto Pokemon as much as they should have! Clair I can accept as she's the final gym leader and it's just one Pokemon out of her four.

That's the point. As the Generations gets later, you have less idea what to expect. The thing that was keeping the real difficulty back overall was that things in general (barring some exceptions like Sabrina) back then were generally more predictable in earlier generations to compensate for your limitations. Also the affection mechanic is mostly optional unless you're playing BDSP - it's only raised by Amie or Camping as far as I am aware (not sure the equivalent for Gen 7).

Looking back, BW2 I found one of the closest to being optimal in that regard. The Gym Leaders were hardly pushovers, and some like Elesa had great coverage, but at the same time, you had a lot of different Pokemon (more than BW1 anyway) you could use to address them. The segment of the first two gym leaders of XY was close to this. So many Pokemon I could catch, yet Viola and Grant somehow managed to throw a curveball at me. And in case you're wondering, I didn't use Amie outside of evolving Sylveon (at least until much later), and even when I started doing that, I spread both Amie and the EXP share thin across the entire 30 Pokemon Box as my rotation so there are that too.

Edited January 7, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

57 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

That's the point. As the Generations gets later, you have less idea what to expect. The thing that was keeping the real difficulty back overall was that things in general (barring some exceptions like Sabrina) back then were generally more predictable in earlier generations to compensate for your limitations. Also the affection mechanic is mostly optional unless you're playing BDSP - it's only raised by Amie or Camping as far as I am aware (not sure the equivalent for Gen 7).

"Not knowing what to expect?" I dunno, sounds like artificial difficulty to me. If I can just look it up beforehand, then isn't the challenge illusory?

...Okay, this isn't a serious argument, but I don't agree with the notion that "limited resources" is a form of "artificial difficulty".

59 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

A Poliwrath I can expect if you've already played RBY. Point taken about Steelix. As for Morty, and lack of Dark types that's the shortcoming of Gen 2; they've didn't showcase the new Dark (and Steel) type as much as they should - and essentially repeated the similar problem with Sabrina, though perhaps not as bad. Heck, they didn't showcase Johto Pokemon as much as they should have! Clair I can accept as she's the final gym leader and it's just one Pokemon out of her four.

Why? Poliwrath is a Water-type. Of course it has Fighting as its secondary type, but it comes from a Water-type line. Chuck could've had Machoke or a Hitmon, but instead he has this weird frog thing that my Typhlosion can't one-shot! ...Mind you, I think it's good design on his team, but that's because it's not what you'd expect.

As for Dark-types, I generally agree that Dark-types (and "new to GSC" Mons in general) should have been made available earlier in the game. But it's moreso from a worldbuilding perspective. Putting Houndour in Kanto makes no sense - I was in Kanto three years back, and it wasn't there! Swapping its place with Growlithe and Vulpix would've been better design, IMO. I don't agree with the argument that "not letting you get a Dark-type before Morty is fake difficulty", but I'm not inherently opposed to the player getting a Dark-type before Morty, either.

[Lord_Brand]

On 1/5/2022 at 7:33 AM, Jotari said:

I'm going to throw out a rather strange idea here for Pokemon difficulty. Remove items as an asset of the game. You can keep held items, but remove hyper potions and revives and stuff. All they serve to do is make it impossible for the player to lose, and also make it just annoying to fight t he AI that uses them. This would make trekking between places in the main campiagn legitimately dangerous and would require taking down enemy gym leaders to have as much planning and strategy as goes into fighting a real player. Items are removed from stuff like Battle Frontier and those difficulty modes are usually considered great.

Or maybe leave items in there for players who need/want them and just refrain from buying items as a self-imposed challenge? It's not like you have to buy them. AI Trainers getting to use them can be frustrating, yes, but fixing that is as simple as disabling item use for AI Trainers. Though there could be a rule in League Battles that no participant is allowed to use items except what their Pokemon are holding.

As far as Pokemon availability goes, I feel it would be ideal for a given type to have at least two or three choices available starting from the point in which you might want a Pokemon of that particular type. A peculiarity of the games is that you often end up battling a Rock-type Gym Leader well before you have a chance to catch many Grass or Water-types, meaning unless your Fire type Starter evolves into a Fire/Fighting-type, you have few super-effective options available.

But honestly, I think it's a matter of time before Pokemon goes open-world like Zelda before it (Legends: Arceus is already pushing in that direction), and at that point the difficulty curve becomes a question of scaling Gym Leaders and other Trainers with the number of Badges you've earned (as well as whether or not you've become Champion).

Ultimately, my opinion of any game's difficulty is this: Difficulty designed to legitimately yet fairly challenge your skill is good. Difficulty born of bugs, oversights, cheap tricks, or sheer laziness is bad.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Or maybe leave items in there for players who need/want them and just refrain from buying items as a self-imposed challenge? It's not like you have to buy them. AI Trainers getting to use them can be frustrating, yes, but fixing that is as simple as disabling item use for AI Trainers. Though there could be a rule in League Battles that no participant is allowed to use items except what their Pokemon are holding.

As far as Pokemon availability goes, I feel it would be ideal for a given type to have at least two or three choices available starting from the point in which you might want a Pokemon of that particular type. A peculiarity of the games is that you often end up battling a Rock-type Gym Leader well before you have a chance to catch many Grass or Water-types, meaning unless your Fire type Starter evolves into a Fire/Fighting-type, you have few super-effective options available.

But honestly, I think it's a matter of time before Pokemon goes open-world like Zelda before it (Legends: Arceus is already pushing in that direction), and at that point the difficulty curve becomes a question of scaling Gym Leaders and other Trainers with the number of Badges you've earned (as well as whether or not you've become Champion).

Ultimately, my opinion of any game's difficulty is this: Difficulty designed to legitimately yet fairly challenge your skill is good. Difficulty born of bugs, oversights, cheap tricks, or sheer laziness is bad.

I'm still quite surprised pokemon didn't go open world a decade ago. It really feels like it's the direction both the games and the fan base what things to go. But I guess when you have something has gobsmackingly successful as pokemon there is an understandable hesitancy to change the formula.

[henrymidfields]

On 1/8/2022 at 2:15 PM, Lord_Brand said:

Or maybe leave items in there for players who need/want them and just refrain from buying items as a self-imposed challenge? It's not like you have to buy them. AI Trainers getting to use them can be frustrating, yes, but fixing that is as simple as disabling item use for AI Trainers. Though there could be a rule in League Battles that no participant is allowed to use items except what their Pokemon are holding.

I'd prefer that. Maybe battle between law-abiding citizen trainers would be no Trainer's items. You don't see this in trainer battles in the anime, manga, or the semi-real-life VGC, so maybe this is official International League mandated rules. Items should still be fair game against wild Pokemon (just to spare the extra gameplay hassle if you're trying to catch that Pokemon) or Evil Team members (who are lawbreakers and would themselves would probably cheat anyway).

Trainer matches could be made more difficult, with the above and maybe a limit to the number of Pokemon. I'd also wouldn't mind having the option to continue your journey onwards after a loss to a Trainer on a Pokemon route, provided there's some form of penalty alongside having to pay up, and an opportunity to re-challenge.

I'm still in the middle of Balloonlea in SwSh. I'm looking forward to test out some of the Double-Battle moves and sets once I get clearance to Raihan's Gym, and tbh, I wish Double Battles were an option for more Gym battles, or even more trainers outside of Battle facilities.

Edited January 22, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

I'd prefer that. Maybe battle between law-abiding citizen trainers would be no Trainer's items. You don't see this in trainer battles in the anime, manga, or the semi-real-life VGC, so maybe this is official International League mandated rules. Items should still be fair game against wild Pokemon (just to spare the extra gameplay hassle if you're trying to catch that Pokemon) or Evil Team members (who are lawbreakers and would themselves would probably cheat anyway).

Trainer matches could be made more difficult, with the above and maybe a limit to the number of Pokemon. I'd also wouldn't mind having the option to continue your journey onwards after a loss to a Trainer on a Pokemon route, provided there's some form of penalty alongside having to pay up, and an opportunity to re-challenge.

I'm still in the middle of Balloonlea in SwSh. I'm looking forward to test out some of the Double-Battle moves and sets once I get clearance to Raihan's Gym, and tbh, I wish Double Battles were an option for more Gym battles, or even more trainers outside of Battle facilities.

Yeah, that's something else I was thinking, it'd be cool if trainer battles worked like they did in the anime, namely you have to choose as many pokemon to use as the opponent does. It is a bit weird that you and that guy with six magikarps are the only people in the world with the big brain strategy of actually taking the maximum number of pokemon into battle with you. That would also make the Elite 4 and end game in general much more epic as it's your one chance in the game to use your full team all at once.

[Lord_Brand]

On 1/22/2022 at 2:15 AM, henrymidfields said:

I'd prefer that. Maybe battle between law-abiding citizen trainers would be no Trainer's items. You don't see this in trainer battles in the anime, manga, or the semi-real-life VGC, so maybe this is official International League mandated rules. Items should still be fair game against wild Pokemon (just to spare the extra gameplay hassle if you're trying to catch that Pokemon) or Evil Team members (who are lawbreakers and would themselves would probably cheat anyway).

Trainer matches could be made more difficult, with the above and maybe a limit to the number of Pokemon. I'd also wouldn't mind having the option to continue your journey onwards after a loss to a Trainer on a Pokemon route, provided there's some form of penalty alongside having to pay up, and an opportunity to re-challenge.

I'm still in the middle of Balloonlea in SwSh. I'm looking forward to test out some of the Double-Battle moves and sets once I get clearance to Raihan's Gym, and tbh, I wish Double Battles were an option for more Gym battles, or even more trainers outside of Battle facilities.

It's more that the battles would be less climactic if everyone just X-Potioned their Pokemon every time they got low on health.

I'm not a fan of arbitrary Pokemon party limits except for specific battle formats that specify such as a rule. You need to remember that not everyone who plays these games plays them the same way you do. Some players are interested in no-item limited party challenges, some people just want to have fun exploring a new land, catching Pokemon, and seeing how the story plays itself out. Pokemon is not just for hardcore, competitive players.

More Double (and for that matter, Triple) battles would be nice.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

26 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

It's more that the battles would be less climactic if everyone just X-Potioned their Pokemon every time they got low on health.

I'm not a fan of arbitrary Pokemon party limits except for specific battle formats that specify such as a rule. You need to remember that not everyone who plays these games plays them the same way you do. Some players are interested in no-item limited party challenges, some people just want to have fun exploring a new land, catching Pokemon, and seeing how the story plays itself out. Pokemon is not just for hardcore, competitive players.

More Double (and for that matter, Triple) battles would be nice.

But isn't the limit of six Pokemon to a party itself arbitrary? Personally, I think it could be cool to see a game where your party size expands as you progress. Maybe you only have two slots at the start, but once you beat the first gym leader, a third slot opens up. In the early generations, you don't get Poke Balls until after spending some time, and facing your rival, with just your starter. The game wants you to prove that you can handle one Pokemon, before you get access to any more. This would, essentially, be an extension of that. This could allow the player to expand beyond normal limits: beating the Champion could open up a seventh slot, while completing a post-game mission unlocks an eighth. Might seem like overkill, but this could be very welcome if a future game returns to an HM system, and dungeons that demand their usage. It also would be great for hatching eggs. And rematches with high-profile trainers, such as Gym Leaders and the Elite Four, could see their teams expanded beyond six as well.

[Lord_Brand]

You have a point. But considering how many different kinds you can find even at an early stage of the game, two slots would fill up fast, and make raising your Pokemon a lot more tedious. Imagine if the Gen 1 games did that. One Pidgey or Rattata caught, and you've already reached maximum party capacity. I think six just felt right, giving you a manageable number of options without overloading you. Eight would have been too many, four would have been too few. That said, if the games were to allow you to switch which Pokemon are in your active party anywhere outside of battle (and perhaps dungeons), a smaller party size might then work as you can still only bring so many Pokemon into battle with you at once. But I still like the current party size of six.

As far as I'm concerned, HMs can stay dead. Recent generations have found far better replacements for them. If they must bring HMs back, I insist that they allow you to overwrite them with other moves; there was no good reason to make them otherwise in the first place, considering they're reusable. Even worse, Gen II introduced a Move Deleter for the purpose of deleting HM moves. Why didn't they just let you replace them normally like every other move!? It's not like you were going to get stuck, they're reusable for fox sake! I don't have a problem with the concept of interacting with the game world using your Pokemon, but there are better ways to do so than with mostly crappy moves that are a pain in the arse to replace. I'm astounded that they ever thought HMs as originally implemented were a good idea. I'm also astounded that it took them over fifteen years to figure out a better replacement and implement it.

But then, these are the developers who only finally decided to add Ralts' line to the Human-Like Egg Group in Gen VIII (and didn't bother to transfer them from Amorphous to Fairy, where they'd make much more sense being, y'know, Fairy-types), didn't think to have Drowzee or Hypno naturally learn Dream Eater until LGPE, and still haven't moved Nidorina and Nidoqueen to Nidoran♀'s Egg Groups. They're either incredibly stubborn, or slower than a Slowpoke.