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Pick an FE without a lunatic+/L.Reverse/Maddening. Create one with as few changes as possible.


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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

So Thracia, Leif is super fucking poor. Id there any way to get money in Thracia without selling weapons; and any way to reliably getting weapons without stealing or capturing? Well if stealing still exists then I guess that's an avenue towards funds. Lifis and Perne top tier.

There are no enemy drops in Thracia, so the only way to get new weapons or items is A) Buying them, B) Stealing them, C) Getting them from Villages or Chests, or D) Capturing and robbing the enemy. If D is no longer an option, then the types and amounts of items you can acquire decreases drastically. As for making money, the most reliable way is by selling items you took from the enemy. Stealing is now the only way to get items from the enemy, and that depends on your Thief having enough Con. In terms of making money, the Arena is still an option, albeit a risky one.

Lack of Capture also hurts in another sense - in the main game, enemies would try to capture "defenseless" units, such as Safy. With no Capture mechanic, however, they'll go straight for the kill instead. Losing items and staves from getting Captured sucks, but it's still better than losing that unit altogether.

1 hour ago, henrymidfields said:

Actually, did someone do a "No Capture" run on 776? Any LPs?

It's probably possible, just a serious headache.

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2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's probably possible, just a serious headache.

Functionally it also locks off certain points of the game. Like you need to capture the boss to reach Dagda's chapter if I remember, so that's at least two units down. Munster would also be hell incarnate as you barely have any weapons in that section any way even without milling turns trying to capture.

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Functionally it also locks off certain points of the game. Like you need to capture the boss to reach Dagda's chapter if I remember, so that's at least two units down. Munster would also be hell incarnate as you barely have any weapons in that section any way even without milling turns trying to capture.

Also, remember how to recruit Lifis? You have to Capture him. No Capture means no Lifis.

Apart from that, I don't know how much worse the Munster arc actually becomes. Most of your units are Sword-locked for the indoor chapters, while most enemies use Lances or Axes. Asbel can get by with just Grafcalibur. Plus, there are still a bunch of chests to open in 4 and 4x, and Karin can visit the Houses in 6. The bigger problem, I would say, is coming out of the Arc with fewer weapons or funds.

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59 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also, remember how to recruit Lifis? You have to Capture him. No Capture means no Lifis.

Oh damn. That means no stealing until Perne (yes, I know Lara exists, but she has the constitution of a toothbrush and won't be stealing anything heavier than a wind tome).

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Isn't losing Lifis AND access to Dagda's chapter a bit ridiculous though? There should be another way for that if IS ever does that kind of Lunatic Mode. Or an exception if we do this as a challenge.

Edited by henrymidfields
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1 minute ago, henrymidfields said:

Isn't losing Lifis AND access to Dagda's chapter a bit ridiculous though? There should be another way for that if IS ever does that kind of Lunatic Mode. Or an exception if we do this as a challenge.

There's also a falcon knight recruit later you'd miss out on too. Though personally I never actually got her since you need to have some kind of sleep weapon on hand to recruit her.

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On 3/8/2022 at 8:33 PM, Jotari said:

There's also a falcon knight recruit later you'd miss out on too. Though personally I never actually got her since you need to have some kind of sleep weapon on hand to recruit her.

No wonder why @Shaky Jones didn't find any LPs for that challenge. It already sounds as sadistic as a Fire Monotype challenge in the Pokemon Sinnoh games that isn't Platinum, and I've neither played that nor Thracia 776. EDIT: Actually no, Fire Monotype probably doesn't sound as bad, try Pokemon Emerald with a Ditto!

Edited by henrymidfields
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8 hours ago, Jotari said:

There's also a falcon knight recruit later you'd miss out on too. Though personally I never actually got her since you need to have some kind of sleep weapon on hand to recruit her.

cries in B-Route

Ironically, the hardest recruitment in the game, Xavier, would still be possible. Harder, but possible. You can move the NPCs (Rescue != Capture), and bring them over to Xavier's knights. Of course, the ones without names/faces will try to attack the NPCs (rather than Capture), so they need to miss all their attacks for it to work.

8 hours ago, henrymidfields said:

No wonder why @Shaky Jones didn't find any LPs for that challenge. It already sounds as sadistic as a Fire Monotype challenge in the Pokemon Sinnoh games that isn't Platinum, and I've neither played that nor Thracia 776.

"Good luck, I'm behind 5 Ponytas."

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  • 5 weeks later...

Gonna give a crack at a Maddening mode for echoes. I think the changes from Normal to Hard mode were pretty good. Hard Mode altered some of the map design in the game to make certain strategies that would have deliberately been used in Normal Mode trickier to pull off and require a bit more planning. For example, Archers with Iron Bows were put near the entrance in the Zofia castle map so it would be harder for Clair to fly past the entrace wall and open the door.Archers on both Alm and Celica's route were given weapons actually, making fliers deliberately trickier to use on several maps, esp on Celica's side. Most of my changes will go along in this vein.

Echoes Maddening Mode:

- higher enemy stat scaling and enemy density compared to hard mode (around +1-5 to Attack and maybe Speed depending on which section of the game you are on and a roughly 10% increase to enemy density)

- decrease EXP gain slightly (0.9x what it is in hard mode.)

- make fatigue take effect more quickly in dungeons

- give enemies forged weapons

- reduce Mila's turnwheel uses? (mixed on this one)

Outside of these changes, there isn't really much else I can think of. Although similar on paper, Echoes is far more limited than 3 houses in what it can do to make the game more difficult. No Class Masteries, gambits, or skills in the traditional sense limit what we can do to the enemy and what the player can do in response to the enemies higher difficulty aside from grinding endlessly.

I saw someone else mention that Conjure and Warp were extremely good. While I do find these tools to be quite useful, they have their own drawbacks. Warp is merely just good for positioning in this game since there are virtually no seize or kill the boss missions. Conjure is a mixed bag. Its a late game ability on Alm's Route and I wouldn't call it particularly good on Celica's Route, as 4 mov soldiers do not fare well when much of the terrain in the game completely bogs them down. I'd actually say they get in the way in most maps since the AI kinda moves them randomly. Since your characters also have low move, they are quite limiting in many cases. A more broad issue with the summoned units is that thy just attack the weakest enemies in their range rather than chipping away against the tough enemies you would want to use them again, effectively being an EXP thief in that case. I don't think the Dread Fighter looping thing is too exploitable in the game unless you are deliberately grinding in Dungeons.  I grind a ton in dungeons to reach certain promotion thresholds, yet getting a Dreadfighter that is ready to promote by act 4 almost never happens.

Edited by 5PointGordin
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14 minutes ago, 5PointGordin said:

Gonna give a crack at a Maddening mode for echoes. I think the changes from Normal to Hard mode were pretty good. Hard Mode altered some of the map design in the game to make certain strategies that would have deliberately been used in Normal Mode trickier to pull off and require a bit more planning. For example, Archers with Iron Bows were put near the entrance in the Zofia castle map so it would be harder for Clair to fly past the entrace wall and open the door.Archers on both Alm and Celica's route were given weapons actually, making fliers deliberately trickier to use on several maps, esp on Celica's side. Most of my changes will go along in this vein.

Echoes Maddening Mode:

- higher enemy stat scaling and enemy density compared to hard mode (around +1-5 to Attack and maybe Speed depending on which second of the game you are on and a roughly 10%)

- decrease EXP gain slightly (0.9x what it is in hard mode.)

- make fatigue take effect more quickly in dungeons

- give enemies forged weapons

- reduce Mila's turnwheel uses? (mixed on this one)

Outside of these changes, there isn't really much else I can think of. Although similar on paper, Echoes is far more limited than 3 houses in what it can do to make the game more difficult. No Class Masteries, gambits, or skills in the traditional sense limit what we can do to the enemy and what the player can do in response to the enemies higher difficulty aside from grinding endlessly.

I saw someone else mention that Conjure and Warp were extremely good. While I do find these tools to be quite useful, they have their own drawbacks. Warp is merely just good for positioning in this game since there are virtually no seize or kill the boss missions. Conjure is a mixed bag. Its a late game ability on Alm's Route and I wouldn't call it particularly good on Celica's Route, as 4 mov soldiers do not fare well when much of the terrain in the game completely bogs them down. I'd actually say they get in the way in most maps since the AI kinda moves them randomly. Since your characters also have low move, they are quite limiting in many cases. A more broad issue with the summoned units is that thy just attack the weakest enemies in their range rather than chipping away against the tough enemies you would want to use them again, effectively being an EXP thief in that case. I don't think the Dread Fighter looping thing is too exploitable in the game unless you are deliberately grinding in Dungeons.  I grind a ton in dungeons to reach certain promotion thresholds, yet getting a Dreadfighter that is ready to promote by act 4 almost never happens.

You could give end game enemies the Overclasses. Not specifically for any stat boosts, but so they can utilize the skills those classes have that really have no appreciable use as is. Also giving every enemy Duma's Pact so they don't need HP to cast spells. It wouldn't be a major change, but it would feel like the kind of thing a hard mode would do.

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1 hour ago, 5PointGordin said:

Gonna give a crack at a Maddening mode for echoes. I think the changes from Normal to Hard mode were pretty good. Hard Mode altered some of the map design in the game to make certain strategies that would have deliberately been used in Normal Mode trickier to pull off and require a bit more planning. For example, Archers with Iron Bows were put near the entrance in the Zofia castle map so it would be harder for Clair to fly past the entrace wall and open the door.Archers on both Alm and Celica's route were given weapons actually, making fliers deliberately trickier to use on several maps, esp on Celica's side. Most of my changes will go along in this vein.

Echoes Maddening Mode:

- higher enemy stat scaling and enemy density compared to hard mode (around +1-5 to Attack and maybe Speed depending on which second of the game you are on and a roughly 10%)

- decrease EXP gain slightly (0.9x what it is in hard mode.)

- make fatigue take effect more quickly in dungeons

- give enemies forged weapons

- reduce Mila's turnwheel uses? (mixed on this one)

Outside of these changes, there isn't really much else I can think of. Although similar on paper, Echoes is far more limited than 3 houses in what it can do to make the game more difficult. No Class Masteries, gambits, or skills in the traditional sense limit what we can do to the enemy and what the player can do in response to the enemies higher difficulty aside from grinding endlessly.

I saw someone else mention that Conjure and Warp were extremely good. While I do find these tools to be quite useful, they have their own drawbacks. Warp is merely just good for positioning in this game since there are virtually no seize or kill the boss missions. Conjure is a mixed bag. Its a late game ability on Alm's Route and I wouldn't call it particularly good on Celica's Route, as 4 mov soldiers do not fare well when much of the terrain in the game completely bogs them down. I'd actually say they get in the way in most maps since the AI kinda moves them randomly. Since your characters also have low move, they are quite limiting in many cases. A more broad issue with the summoned units is that thy just attack the weakest enemies in their range rather than chipping away against the tough enemies you would want to use them again, effectively being an EXP thief in that case. I don't think the Dread Fighter looping thing is too exploitable in the game unless you are deliberately grinding in Dungeons.  I grind a ton in dungeons to reach certain promotion thresholds, yet getting a Dreadfighter that is ready to promote by act 4 almost never happens.

See, this actually sounds like a well-designed difficulty. But the prompt is to screw the player over with as few changes as possible. So in my hypothetical "Dumatic" Mode, here goes: 

Mila Statues no longer function.

That's it, that's the change. It's now impossible to promote units, with the exception of Celica, who promotes into Princess via an event. You also can't restore Fatigue or Turnwheel uses mid-dungeon.

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1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

See, this actually sounds like a well-designed difficulty. But the prompt is to screw the player over with as few changes as possible. So in my hypothetical "Dumatic" Mode, here goes: 

Mila Statues no longer function.

That's it, that's the change. It's now impossible to promote units, with the exception of Celica, who promotes into Princess via an event. You also can't restore Fatigue or Turnwheel uses mid-dungeon.

Huh. Shadows of Valentia without promotions. Well the villagers are now awful to start. Though I think Celica might be hurt more by it than Alm despite him getting all the villagers. Her swordies can't get their broken dread fighter class and even the white wings won't have access to banish. Valbar would be a bit more useful though. Alm also eventually gets Mycen, Zeke and Tatiana who would all remain great.

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10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Huh. Shadows of Valentia without promotions. Well the villagers are now awful to start. Though I think Celica might be hurt more by it than Alm despite him getting all the villagers. Her swordies can't get their broken dread fighter class and even the white wings won't have access to banish. Valbar would be a bit more useful though. Alm also eventually gets Mycen, Zeke and Tatiana who would all remain great.

Yeah, Alm gets three fully-promoted units, while Celica gets... Nomah. Even Conrad only shows up as a Paladin. I think most magic users (Mae, Genny, Silque, Delthea) would still fare decently well, in line with their spell lists. Leon and Python can contribute with Hunter's Volley. The Villagers would all suck, Lukas would fall off hard, and the Mercenaries wouldn't hold up. Catria and Palla would be far worse than in the base game, but still decent. Valbar and Mathilda would still have their uses.

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3 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, Alm gets three fully-promoted units, while Celica gets... Nomah. Even Conrad only shows up as a Paladin. I think most magic users (Mae, Genny, Silque, Delthea) would still fare decently well, in line with their spell lists. Leon and Python can contribute with Hunter's Volley. The Villagers would all suck, Lukas would fall off hard, and the Mercenaries wouldn't hold up. Catria and Palla would be far worse than in the base game, but still decent. Valbar and Mathilda would still have their uses.

The DLC units would probably end up very useful too.

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On 4/7/2022 at 6:14 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

See, this actually sounds like a well-designed difficulty. But the prompt is to screw the player over with as few changes as possible. So in my hypothetical "Dumatic" Mode, here goes: 

Mila Statues no longer function.

That's it, that's the change. It's now impossible to promote units, with the exception of Celica, who promotes into Princess via an event. You also can't restore Fatigue or Turnwheel uses mid-dungeon.

I actually did this run - well, mostly.  More specifically, it was "no promotions" (restoring fatigue / Turnwheel was still fine, but that's notable fairly rarely) and also "must use lowest class units".  So Zeke & Tatiana are riding the bench and all the Villagers are staying in.

I think it's doable.  The reason I stopped wasn't difficulty, it was just general distraction - all I have left to do is Chapter 6 and Alm's final dungeon, which admittedly is the point most likely to get bricked on if any.  Range games are still very stupid and mostly work - Lightning Sword on a Villager, Mage Ring on mages, and so on.  Forging a Killer Bow early for Hunter's Volley is important and lets even unpromoted Archers like Leon and Python kill stuff.  Alm can still kill everything just fine with the Royal Sword at L20 unpromoted in his C4.  I did feed Alm some stat-boosting Fountain drinks just-in-case since he'll have to tangle with Duma at the end, but I think he's good enough for it.

Really the main annoyance is much less healing than usual (unpromoted Mages can't cast Heal) + no Saints for regen / terrain ignoring means that it's not even worth attempting to trudge some characters through the swamps in Celica's C4.  So some units just chill in the backlines while the mages & Pegasus trio handle everything.  No Dread Fighter means that you're stuck using Hexlock Shield to survive Nuibaba over in Alm's C4, too.  I think I may have suicided a unit in to kill one of the Cantors there, but eh, that's what the revival fountain is for if so - I forget now.  I definitely did that on Celica's final C3 map, but that was more because I was cheekily doing it before Grieth's Citadel for giggles.  (This doesn't actually help, Celica won't have the "proof" that she's a princess if you go to the Temple of Mila "first" without heading to Grieth's, because of course that definitely makes sense.)

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9 hours ago, SnowFire said:

I actually did this run - well, mostly.  More specifically, it was "no promotions" (restoring fatigue / Turnwheel was still fine, but that's notable fairly rarely) and also "must use lowest class units".  So Zeke & Tatiana are riding the bench and all the Villagers are staying in.

Interesting! Your run actually sounds quite a bit harder than what I'm proposing. Missing out on units like Mycen, Tatiana, Nomag, and Deen.

10 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Really the main annoyance is much less healing than usual (unpromoted Mages can't cast Heal) + no Saints for regen / terrain ignoring means that it's not even worth attempting to trudge some characters through the swamps in Celica's C4.  So some units just chill in the backlines while the mages & Pegasus trio handle everything.

Yeah, not having Genny's Saint skill would suck on a lot of the Act IV maps.

10 hours ago, SnowFire said:

No Dread Fighter means that you're stuck using Hexlock Shield to survive Nuibaba over in Alm's C4, too.

Couldn't you send in Python with a Hunter's Volley? Medusa has a long range, but even as an Archer, I believe he'd have just enough range to come from outside her range and attack.

Alternatively, Silque Warps in Alm with Double Lion. Although you'll have to address many of the other enemies there beforehand. 

10 hours ago, SnowFire said:

I definitely did that on Celica's final C3 map, but that was more because I was cheekily doing it before Grieth's Citadel for giggles.  (This doesn't actually help, Celica won't have the "proof" that she's a princess if you go to the Temple of Mila "first" without heading to Grieth's, because of course that definitely makes sense.)

I don't get why Grieth's Citadel is required. It could've been an optional mission, like Fear Mountain on Alm's side. Sure, you miss some good units and items, but it makes sense that Celica would want to "book it" to the Temple. Also, Irma getting kidnapped by Grieth makes her whole order look pathetically incompetent. Not only that, but after she's rescued by Celica, she... goes on ahead to the temple? Across the desert, and right through the Bow Knight boss and Cantor boss? It beggars belief.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Echoes Shadows of Valentia

Mila's Turnwheel Removed

All terrors have Void Curse

Merchant's Removed

Map reinforcements removed

Retreat Removed

 

This removes the huge amount of grinding present in echoes but it does enable the player to grind in thieves shrine for the small amount of exp that gets you. Merchants/Turnwheels make the game a lot easier by giving the player overpowered equipment or by making dying much less of a scary proposition. 

Echoes actually has extremely high enemy quality so these changes would be enough to make the game feel like a real challenge and not the easy game it is currently. Though the game will still not be that crazy it will feel like the player has to actually fight for their victories.

Edited by ussgordoncaptain
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17 hours ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

Map reinforcements removed

Wouldn't this change be to the player's benefit, though? If they're going for a low turncount, then they want as few encounters as possible. Plus, getting rid of map reinforcements frees the player up to "backtrack". In Act III, for instance, Alm can return to the Deliverance Hideout to promote Clive, Python, and Forsyth before facing Desaix, without having to worry about fighting his way back through the reinforcements.

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55 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wouldn't this change be to the player's benefit, though? If they're going for a low turncount, then they want as few encounters as possible. Plus, getting rid of map reinforcements frees the player up to "backtrack". In Act III, for instance, Alm can return to the Deliverance Hideout to promote Clive, Python, and Forsyth before facing Desaix, without having to worry about fighting his way back through the reinforcements.

Turns don't matter^TM, but even if you say they do map reinforcements offer better exp/turn than any other form of grinding other than thieves shrine.

 

Yes it makes it easier to LTC, but eh you can just hover rig, and it's not really that big of a deal, backtracks don't add nearly as much when you can't get forged Killer bow leon go brrr

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11 hours ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

Turns don't matter^TM, but even if you say they do map reinforcements offer better exp/turn than any other form of grinding other than thieves shrine.

Echoes' Hard Mode enemies aren't tough enough that you need to grind to get through them. If you get rid of overworld reinforcements, you make the game easier and quicker overall.

I agree with the other changes making tje game harder, though.

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/10/2022 at 4:39 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

FE15: No grinding. No map reinforcements, not monsters in dungeons, nothing. You get experience in the main maps and nowhere else.

On 5/5/2022 at 6:00 AM, ussgordoncaptain said:

This removes the huge amount of grinding present in echoes but it does enable the player to grind in thieves shrine for the small amount of exp that gets you.

It seems our minds are not entirely disparate from each other.

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