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Metal Flash

Early Evolving Weapon VS Late Legendary Weapon

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Recently, I have been replaying FE Echoes. It reminded me of how Alm doesn`t get his legendary weapon until near the end of the game. In contrast, Byleth gets the Sword of the Creator in Chapter 4. And then I was reminded of how Chrom has the Falchion from the Prolouge. Now of course, their weapons are much weaker than Alm`s, SotC only having seven might and Chrom`s Falchion having five. However, to compensate, they later evolve into stronger version, Chrom gets the Exalted Falchion and Byleth gets the Sublime Creator Sword.

This brings me to my question, which do you fine folks prefer? Would you rather get the weapon early and have it be upgraded over time, or get the weapon in its complete form near the end of the journey?

Personally, I prefer the later myself. Getting the weapons later in the game feels like a much more special occasion, like when Eliwood obtains Durandal or Seliph gets the Tyrfing. But that is just my opinion, feel free to share yours.

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Gameplay-wise, there is a difference. Chrom does get some nifty anti-wyvern potency early on that others lack, the Yato gives Corrin a strong weapon to use in their base class if most/all of the good swords are in others' hands. And, Byleth has a 1-2 sword with a special Combat Art, not that I ever used it, so I can't say what difference it makes.

Though for the sake of this topic, I'm not going to care about the gameplay benefits, even if they might provide a lord with some additional distinguishing potential when the game begins. And instead focus on the narrative awesomeness.

So in terms of presentation... I'm not entirely sure. Either can be epically stylish if done right. Maybe I'm not so fond of "you had this power within you all along, all you needed to do was know thyself", I think I prefer when it is a gift from without. And that gift can be cool as either a customization of an old weapon falling behind with modern threats, or a brand new murder thingy.

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Personally, I prefer getting it early and having it evolve. Getting them later only really feels special when the weapon is worth using, otherwise it only manages to be insulting. Case in point: Durandal. I'm led to believe that it's this amazing weapon by the story, but when I get the chance to use it at the end of Blazing Blade... it falls far short of what the game tried to sell me on it being.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think I prefer late-game legendary weapons overall.

Introducing a legendary weapon early on in the game has the obvious benefit of enabling it to be in the game for longer while also giving the protagonist a bit more usefulness. However, unless it's in a nerfed state when it's introduced, it will obviously unbalance things, so it has to be in a nerfed state, and that raises a few problems; perhaps the biggest one being that it can make this legendary weapon not feel so legendary, especially if it gradually falls out of usefulness before the upgrade; Chrom's falchion definitely suffers this, while the Yato gets around this somewhat by being upgraded twice.

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Evolving weapon sounds a lot better on paper but it's significantly hampered by durability. If you give it durability then there's a chance it'll break before you can evolve it, otherwise there's a tricky balancing act of making it reasonably useful without overshadowing other weapons. This gets easier if you don't have durability but that's a whole 'nother discussion. A compromise might be if broken weapons exist, then your weapon is auto-repaired whenever it evolves.

I'm indifferent overall, I care more that the weapon is useful when you have it.

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Depends on the story being told. I will say that I'm not really the biggest fan of personal weapons to start with; they can provide a cool way to differentiate characters but they often feel a bit nonsensical; why is it that Marth/Roy/Eliwood/Eirika/Ike have a sword that other people in their party can't use? I'd prefer to see something closer to 3H where weapons aren't truly unique to characters, though they may do something special in the hands of their "proper" wielder.

2 hours ago, X-Naut said:

Evolving weapon sounds a lot better on paper but it's significantly hampered by durability. If you give it durability then there's a chance it'll break before you can evolve it, otherwise there's a tricky balancing act of making it reasonably useful without overshadowing other weapons. This gets easier if you don't have durability but that's a whole 'nother discussion. A compromise might be if broken weapons exist, then your weapon is auto-repaired whenever it evolves.

I'm indifferent overall, I care more that the weapon is useful when you have it.

I think both Awakening and Three Houses did a fine job of balancing that, in two different ways.

 

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On 1/13/2022 at 12:14 PM, Metal Flash said:

Recently, I have been replaying FE Echoes. It reminded me of how Alm doesn`t get his legendary weapon until near the end of the game. In contrast, Byleth gets the Sword of the Creator in Chapter 4. And then I was reminded of how Chrom has the Falchion from the Prolouge. Now of course, their weapons are much weaker than Alm`s, SotC only having seven might and Chrom`s Falchion having five. However, to compensate, they later evolve into stronger version, Chrom gets the Exalted Falchion and Byleth gets the Sublime Creator Sword.

Counterpoint - while Alm doesn't get Falchion until lategame, he gets the powerful Royal Sword in the middle of Act III. While not quite legendary, it is an exclusive weapon to him. And with how combat arts work in this game, it can be thought of as an "evolving" weapon, granting Alm Double Lion and Sendscale as he uses it more. I'd go so far as saying that, outside of the express purpose of slaying Duma, the Royal Sword is a better weapon than the Valentian Falchion.

22 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally, I prefer getting it early and having it evolve. Getting them later only really feels special when the weapon is worth using, otherwise it only manages to be insulting. Case in point: Durandal. I'm led to believe that it's this amazing weapon by the story, but when I get the chance to use it at the end of Blazing Blade... it falls far short of what the game tried to sell me on it being.

Same with Sol Katti - why are these legendary weapons so heavy? Also, why is Durandal called "the Blazing Blade", when there's literally another sword that shoots fire? 

Anyway, that's its own tangent. But yeah, not a fan of how FE7 does its legendary weapons. You don't get them until the final chapter, and they're not even that good. Plus, most of them are quite expensive, so if you're playing for a Funds ranking, the optimal play is to preserve them.

22 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Introducing a legendary weapon early on in the game has the obvious benefit of enabling it to be in the game for longer while also giving the protagonist a bit more usefulness. However, unless it's in a nerfed state when it's introduced, it will obviously unbalance things, so it has to be in a nerfed state, and that raises a few problems; perhaps the biggest one being that it can make this legendary weapon not feel so legendary, especially if it gradually falls out of usefulness before the upgrade; Chrom's falchion definitely suffers this, while the Yato gets around this somewhat by being upgraded twice.

I think in Awakening, the mere fact that the Falchion is infinitely durable is a sign of its "legendary" status. It conveys the feeling of an ancient weapon whose power has yet to be awakened.

Anyway, I think there can be a mix of weapons that become more powerful as the game progresses, and those that are strong right out of the gate. The important part, I'd say, is giving the player a reason to use these weapons, without feeling free to spam them endlessly. A tough balancing act, to be sure, though I think 3H's "repairing" system gets it about right.

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Same with Sol Katti - why are these legendary weapons so heavy? Also, why is Durandal called "the Blazing Blade", when there's literally another sword that shoots fire? 

Anyway, that's its own tangent. But yeah, not a fan of how FE7 does its legendary weapons. You don't get them until the final chapter, and they're not even that good. Plus, most of them are quite expensive, so if you're playing for a Funds ranking, the optimal play is to preserve them.

Yeah, it just feels stupid that they're meant to be used against dragons (i.e. the final boss), yet Armads is the only one that is actually useful against it. In a similar vein, the hype the relics get in the story of 3H bothers me, because a good chunk of them aren't that useful as to justify the hype. 

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10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Yeah, it just feels stupid that they're meant to be used against dragons (i.e. the final boss), yet Armads is the only one that is actually useful against it. In a similar vein, the hype the relics get in the story of 3H bothers me, because a good chunk of them aren't that useful as to justify the hype. 

I'd say they're all pretty good against the final boss - other weapons basically can't scratch him, outside of Luna/Forblaze/Aureola. It's entirely reasonable (common, even!) to have a Raven who outclasses Lyn and Eliwood, but they'll typically be able to deal more damage to the final boss than he can. The fact that the final boss is really slow also makes it so the weapons' stupid weight isn't as bad as it could be (although I agree with you, they're still too heavy). Like an average Lyn doubles with Sol Katti by Level ~11 (at least on non-HHM, I forget if the dragon gets a HHM boost to speed). Eliwood's unlikely to double (needs a Body Ring, if memory serves, even at 20/20), but likely to at least be fast enough to not be doubled, and the one hit of Durandal does a fair chunk.

I'd say most of the 3H relics are pretty useful (you can debate Crusher; I know you're not a fan of it, and I'll certainly concede it's situational). At worst they're almost all 4+ points stronger than corresponding silver weapons. And some of them have some pretty busted combat arts in their hands of "proper" user.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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16 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd say they're all pretty good against the final boss - other weapons basically can't scratch him, outside of Luna/Forblaze/Aureola. It's entirely reasonable (common, even!) to have a Raven who outclasses Lyn and Eliwood, but they'll typically be able to deal more damage to the final boss than he can. The fact that the final boss is really slow also makes it so the weapons' stupid weight isn't as bad as it could be (although I agree with you, they're still too heavy). Like an average Lyn doubles with Sol Katti by Level ~11 (at least on non-HHM, I forget if the dragon gets a HHM boost to speed). Eliwood's unlikely to double (needs a Body Ring, if memory serves, even at 20/20), but likely to at least be fast enough to not be doubled, and the one hit of Durandal does a fair chunk.

Re: Sol Katti, the bigger issue is getting Lyn to survive against the Fire Dragon. She needs at least 38 HP (40 on HHM) to take a single hit. That only happens around 20/8 (20/11 on HHM). Not so much the fault of the weapon as it is a combination of how the final boss is designed, plus how Lyn as a unit is designed. That said, a "halves damage from the Fire Dragon" effect certainly would've been a welcome inclusion.

I was going to say "maybe the legendary weapons feel less impressive in International FE7 because effective damage was nerfed, relative to Japanese FE7." But I looked it up, and according to FEWiki, the legendary weapons also did 2x Might effective damage in the original FE7 (save for Aureola, which did 3x Might). So the Armads, Durandal, and Sol Katti were localized properly.

25 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd say most of the 3H relics are pretty useful (you can debate Crusher; I know you're not a fan of it, and I'll certainly concede it's situational). At worst they're almost all 4+ points stronger than corresponding silver weapons. And some of them have some pretty busted combat arts in their hands of "proper" user.

Agreed. Lance of Ruin has absurd Might for when you can get it, and opens up kills not previously possible. Thunderbrand has the highest might of any brave weapon, tying with the Brave Axe+. Aymr and Areadbahr both have broken combat arts. The Sword of the Creator is a ranged physical-damage sword in a game where those don't otherwise exist. And Thyrsus is the single best staff (and arguably the best Hero's Relic) in the game.

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44 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Re: Sol Katti, the bigger issue is getting Lyn to survive against the Fire Dragon. She needs at least 38 HP (40 on HHM) to take a single hit. That only happens around 20/8 (20/11 on HHM). Not so much the fault of the weapon as it is a combination of how the final boss is designed, plus how Lyn as a unit is designed.

For what it's worth, I'd consider those to be quite low levels for endgame, and few other characters are gonna be dragon-worthy at that point, either. At those levels, Eliwood's liable to be doubled (he needs 19 spd to avoid this, which he achieves around 20/9 to 20/10), Canas/Lucius are at similar risk to Lyn of a OHKO (Lucius even moreso), and everyone else is gonna have even more damage issues than normal. About the only person able to contribute meaningfully against the dragon at this sort of level is Hector. (Obviously Athos is exempt from requiring levels and puts in great work regardless, to the point where "give him a Body Ring, use Luna" is one of the easiest ways to one-turn the fight.)

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd say they're all pretty good against the final boss - other weapons basically can't scratch him, outside of Luna/Forblaze/Aureola. It's entirely reasonable (common, even!) to have a Raven who outclasses Lyn and Eliwood, but they'll typically be able to deal more damage to the final boss than he can. The fact that the final boss is really slow also makes it so the weapons' stupid weight isn't as bad as it could be (although I agree with you, they're still too heavy). Like an average Lyn doubles with Sol Katti by Level ~11 (at least on non-HHM, I forget if the dragon gets a HHM boost to speed). Eliwood's unlikely to double (needs a Body Ring, if memory serves, even at 20/20), but likely to at least be fast enough to not be doubled, and the one hit of Durandal does a fair chunk.

In my book, the issue is that you have to go through a whole other map of enemies first, and using those weapons leaves you worse off against pretty much everything because they're so darn heavy. Lyn in particular struggles to do damage to the dragon, too; at best, she does only 8 damage a hit.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd say most of the 3H relics are pretty useful (you can debate Crusher; I know you're not a fan of it, and I'll certainly concede it's situational). At worst they're almost all 4+ points stronger than corresponding silver weapons. And some of them have some pretty busted combat arts in their hands of "proper" user.

The only one that I'd say has a busted combat art is Aymr, and I guess that might have been unintentional to an extent, if it gives an extra move even if it misses. Most of the other relic combat arts stink of "win-more" at best, ESPECIALLY Atrocity, which screams, "I wanna hit for unreasonably big numbers".

Edited by Shadow Mir

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7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

In my book, the issue is that you have to go through a whole other map of enemies first, and using those weapons leaves you worse off against pretty much everything because they're so darn heavy. Lyn in particular struggles to do damage to the dragon, too; at best, she does only 8 damage a hit.

Characters have more than one inventory slot, so I don't really care how well my dragon-fighting weapon does against non-dragons.

Lyn can do more damage than that once you factor in supports. e.g. 20/20 Lyn with A Florina / B Hector does 9 damage per swing, with a ~70% chance of at least one crit, which will yield 36 damage. That's not bad, considering nobody does more than 30 at average stats without stat boosters, at 20/20 average stats (granted, Athos/Hector/Canas can go significantly higher with a Body Ring or Speedwing so they start doubling).

16 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Most of the other relic combat arts stink of "win-more" at best, ESPECIALLY Atrocity, which screams, "I wanna hit for unreasonably big numbers".

Not true, at least on Maddening. Pretty sure we discussed this before.

 

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4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Counterpoint - while Alm doesn't get Falchion until lategame, he gets the powerful Royal Sword in the middle of Act III. While not quite legendary, it is an exclusive weapon to him. And with how combat arts work in this game, it can be thought of as an "evolving" weapon, granting Alm Double Lion and Sendscale as he uses it more. I'd go so far as saying that, outside of the express purpose of slaying Duma, the Royal Sword is a better weapon than the Valentian Falchion.

Fair point, I forgot how busted the Royal Sword really is. Shame only Alm can use it.

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2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Characters have more than one inventory slot, so I don't really care how well my dragon-fighting weapon does against non-dragons.

Lyn can do more damage than that once you factor in supports. e.g. 20/20 Lyn with A Florina / B Hector does 9 damage per swing, with a ~70% chance of at least one crit, which will yield 36 damage. That's not bad, considering nobody does more than 30 at average stats without stat boosters, at 20/20 average stats (granted, Athos/Hector/Canas can go significantly higher with a Body Ring or Speedwing so they start doubling).

I'ma be really, really blunt here - that's a lot to ask to upgrade Lyn's performance against it to go from "laughable" to "slightly less laughable". Besides, my main gripe is that two of the 3 lords' anti-dragon weapons aren't even that good against it, and that still stands, as Durandal murders Eliwood's AS, the Sol Katti does the same to Lyn's, and the latter doesn't even allow her to do very much to the very thing it's supposed to be used on!

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Not true, at least on Maddening. Pretty sure we discussed this before.

Maybe to you it isn't, but in my book? I struggle to justify that much power when it probably won't turn my situation around.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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4 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'ma be really, really blunt here - that's a lot to ask to upgrade Lyn's performance against it to go from "laughable" to "slightly less laughable". Besides, my main gripe is that two of the 3 lords' anti-dragon weapons aren't even that good against it, and that still stands, as Durandal murders Eliwood's AS, the Sol Katti does the same to Lyn's, and the latter doesn't even allow her to do very much to the very thing it's supposed to be used on!

I'm not sure why you think two of the lords' weapons aren't good against the Dragon, because they're all pretty similar actually. Eliwood and Hector do almost the same damage, in particular. Lyn's a bit different but in a lateral way:

20/20 Eliwood, A Hector / B someone (Lyn, Lowen, Fiora, etc.): 26 damage

20/20 Hector, A Eliwood / B someone (Lyn, Florina, etc.): 28 damage

20/20 Lyn, A Florina / B Hector or A Florina / C Eliwood: 9 damage x2 high crit rate (one crit = 36)

If you aren't using supports then Lyn does suffer the most, but Lyn/Florina is literally the fastest support in the game (although Eliwood/Hector is also super fast and starts earlier), and is easily achievable on a 5-star tactics run. You can get it before the Dragon just by having Lyn and Florina spend 2 turns adjacent per map!

Lyn's "murdered" AS is still going to double the Dragon (unless she's so underlevelled that she's at risk of getting one-hit killed, as per Shanty Pete).

19 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Maybe to you it isn't, but in my book? I struggle to justify that much power when it probably won't turn my situation around.

I literally cited examples where it does turn the situation around. Unless you mean you don't care about whether you can kill certain enemies in one attack,.

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overall, either is good imo. but personally in FE case, the late legendary is slightly preferred.

Falchion in awakening sure has its uses. but i dont feel as much hype or importance versus late legendary weapon. maybe because it become obsolete until its due upgrade. people just use it like everyday weapon

compared to binding blade, where people either conserve it for strong enemy, or use it brazenly like me due to how OP and useful it is (and pretend like Roy is strongest unit because of it)  because i've specifically saved Hammerne 3 charge for it. Its that special

 

9 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Fair point, I forgot how busted the Royal Sword really is. Shame only Alm can use it.

Alm is royalty. The sword literally called Royal Sword. the moment peasant can use it, it becomes Everyone Sword XD. Celica not able to use it despite a royalty is more like because of the gameplay that doesnt take into account both of them in one party except last fight, just like theres no support between both of them despite the obvious. iirc not even "talk" is available in duma map between celica party and alm party

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1 hour ago, joevar said:

Alm is royalty. The sword literally called Royal Sword. the moment peasant can use it, it becomes Everyone Sword XD. Celica not able to use it despite a royalty is more like because of the gameplay that doesnt take into account both of them in one party except last fight, just like theres no support between both of them despite the obvious. iirc not even "talk" is available in duma map between celica party and alm party

I never meant that everyone should be able to use it, let me rephrase that. It`s a shame that, once Alm gets the Falchion, the Royal Sword just gets banished to the convoy, with no one else to use it. I remember someone on these forums wishing Berkut was playable so that we had someone else who could use the Royal Sword, a statement a find myself agreeing with.

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Am I allowed to say "neither"? I'm just not really a fan of personal and legendary weapons.

In terms of story, the legendary magic weapon just isn't a trope that appeals to me. For me, it detracts from the achievements of the individual if they're only successful because they happen to have some item that nobody else does. The hero who can fight and win with whatever random weapon happens to be on hand is much more impressive and inspiring to me than the one who needs their fancy-pants magic weapon to win. Obviously, this is very subjective, and obviously magic weapons have been prominent and popular in literature for centuries, but I'm just not a fan.

In terms of gameplay, they too often form a dominant strategy. When legendary weapons are strong, whoever has them often ends up just being better than everyone else, which I don't think makes for a good Fire Emblem experience. I have more fun with Fire Emblem when I'm using a lot of different units than when I'm using a few buffed up demigods. This is doubly the case when it comes to personal weapons. Another thing that I like about Fire Emblem is being able to choose which units I want to use, so I'm not really a fan of mechanics that specifically push specific units as the ones that I'm supposed to be using.

At the other end of the spectrum is the crappy legendary weapon that I never want to equip anyway. Which isn't as harmful as the overpowered legendary weapon, but is completely pointless. There is a middle ground where the legendary weapon is a decent choice in some cases, but not objectively better than other choices. More of a side-grade than a direct upgrade. Which I don't really have a problem with in terms of gameplay, but then it doesn't really live up to its storyline billing as legendary. And OK, I could absolutely get behind a storyline of a weapon that was hyped up in legends, but then when the heroes actually finally acquired it, they found that it was actually just another sword, and they had to win by their own strength, character and abilities. Except that's never how it's presented.

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This is a pretty interesting question tbh. I think I'd say that with the assumption of good writing I'd actually like both. Like for evolving weapons the 3DS games I both have fault with. (Chrom's happens way too late. And there isn't really a moment where you can compare/contrast them.) Fates could be amazing if Corrin had character development to go on with the weapon evolutions, but uh, no that never happens.

Similarly I think the late legendary weapons often disappoint in fire emblem. Others have addressed some of the gameplay concerns so I'm not gonna rehash too hard.

Since, I believe that both options are great if well written. I'd like to drop a scenario for each type of legendary weapon that I think would be hard to screw up. (Of course. IS will find a way to do so. They are ingenious after all!)

-Evolving weapon actually correlates with the main character's growth. Maybe their lee-awesome badass dad gives it to them after he dies protecting them from BBEG's army. That seems like a good way to start a Fire Emblem game. "Oh no your castle's being invaded! Oh yes the King's a badass stopping the army! Oh no King dies to protect main character because FE Dads always die. Oh no."
Of course the game starts with the main lord being like "I don't deserve this weapon" and it sucks.
Cue upgrades that correlate with increasing resolve. I'd put the number at 3. 1 early on to make it pretty good (though as something of a general option.) 2 around mid-game. Just make it a silver weapon without any downsides. Then 3 is true legendary effectiveness goodie.

-Late legendary doesn't show up right at the end (Or enforce excessive conservation like FE6) but also gives you chapters BEFORE the weapons. That would be made 3x easier WITH the weapons. ideally with very strong before and after. I'm thinking of the main cast needing the resident Fire Emblem in order to unlock a vault. But chapter before you get the legendary weapons (which are sealed inside the vault.) you have to fight dragons.
Beefy dragons
That 2 shot your units
With enough speed and luck that they might just dodge too.
Needing you to pile on in droves to whittle down their massive HP bars.


Man it be so amazing if you had these super high mt weapons. That also had excellent hit. That just so happened to be Riiiiiight there. In a big shiny vault door. It be amazing wouldn't it?

And then the next chapter is a reverse. You need to fight your way out of the vault. Now with a whole stack of legendary weapons you can deploy as you see fit.

Finally rest of the game won't be as dragon centric. Maybe like 1-3 a chapter to remind you that yes. Dragons are a pain in the ass if you don't kill them first.

Ideally the balance around the divine weapons is very player phase oriented. Since dragons have like 240+ hit and hit hard you never want to see them on EP. You'd die in two hits. And without the divine weapons. They're also taking scratch damage cuz they mega thick too.



 

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14 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I literally cited examples where it does turn the situation around. Unless you mean you don't care about whether you can kill certain enemies in one attack,.

When I have 10 or so units to use, that's not so special, especially when others can do so without the need for a very specific combat art that's tied to a specific weapon that has low durability and is expensive to repair. Also, for fuck's sake, if you're going to give me that much power, the least you can do is make situations where that amount of power is actually necessary, otherwise I ain't gonna be impressed. And that is why I scoff at Atrocity.

14 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm not sure why you think two of the lords' weapons aren't good against the Dragon, because they're all pretty similar actually. Eliwood and Hector do almost the same damage, in particular. Lyn's a bit different but in a lateral way:

20/20 Eliwood, A Hector / B someone (Lyn, Lowen, Fiora, etc.): 26 damage

20/20 Hector, A Eliwood / B someone (Lyn, Florina, etc.): 28 damage

20/20 Lyn, A Florina / B Hector or A Florina / C Eliwood: 9 damage x2 high crit rate (one crit = 36)

If you aren't using supports then Lyn does suffer the most, but Lyn/Florina is literally the fastest support in the game (although Eliwood/Hector is also super fast and starts earlier), and is easily achievable on a 5-star tactics run. You can get it before the Dragon just by having Lyn and Florina spend 2 turns adjacent per map!

Lyn's "murdered" AS is still going to double the Dragon (unless she's so underlevelled that she's at risk of getting one-hit killed, as per Shanty Pete).

>using 20/20 stats
That's not helping your case, knowing that the lords are extremely unlikely to max their levels. Also, Lyn is still at a disadvantage knowing that she NEEDS a critical hit to do any real damage. I should not have to explain how - and why - that's a problem. Also, part of my problem with them (specifically Sol Katti and Durandal) is that gameplay wise, they fail to live up to the legendary billing they get in story; if it's supposed to be a legendary weapon, I at least want to have that feeling manifest in gameplay, and Blazing Blade fails in that regard, as the Sol Katti and Durandal instead feel more like silver bullets with no other use, with the former in particular not even being that useful against the thing it's meant to kill (not helping their case is that the units they're tied to are pretty lacking - that, though, is another matter entirely).

Edited by Shadow Mir

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19 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

For what it's worth, I'd consider those to be quite low levels for endgame, and few other characters are gonna be dragon-worthy at that point, either. At those levels, Eliwood's liable to be doubled (he needs 19 spd to avoid this, which he achieves around 20/9 to 20/10), Canas/Lucius are at similar risk to Lyn of a OHKO (Lucius even moreso), and everyone else is gonna have even more damage issues than normal. About the only person able to contribute meaningfully against the dragon at this sort of level is Hector. (Obviously Athos is exempt from requiring levels and puts in great work regardless, to the point where "give him a Body Ring, use Luna" is one of the easiest ways to one-turn the fight.)

Depends on how you play. In casual playthroughs, getting Lyn promoted and into the teens is definitely feasible, especially when playing Lyn's story first. On the other hand, more "efficient" or "optimal" playthroughs eschew training Lyn altogether, bringing her into the final chapter unpromoted. And in a blind playthrough, the player wouldn't know about the Sol Katti or the Fire Dragon, and might only feed Lyn a few kills here or there. Same with an Ironman - as a Game Over condition, it makes sense to deploy Lyn only when she's forced.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

When I have 10 or so units to use, that's not so special, especially when others can do so without the need for a very specific combat art that's tied to a specific weapon that has low durability and is expensive to repair. Also, for fuck's sake, if you're going to give me that much power, the least you can do is make situations where that amount of power is actually necessary, otherwise I ain't gonna be impressed. And that is why I scoff at Atrocity.

@Dark Holy Elflists situations where that kind of power is necessary

@Shadow Mir: "I'm not impressed."

Nobody's forcing you to use your precious gold and Umbral Steel to repair Areadbhar. Worst-case scenario, you get three powerful hits in with it. Let it rot in the convoy afterward for all I care.

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31 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Depends on how you play. In casual playthroughs, getting Lyn promoted and into the teens is definitely feasible, especially when playing Lyn's story first. On the other hand, more "efficient" or "optimal" playthroughs eschew training Lyn altogether, bringing her into the final chapter unpromoted. And in a blind playthrough, the player wouldn't know about the Sol Katti or the Fire Dragon, and might only feed Lyn a few kills here or there. Same with an Ironman - as a Game Over condition, it makes sense to deploy Lyn only when she's forced.

I don't disagree with this. It's fine to not level Lyn much (I actually did another HHM run recently and didn't level her or Eliwood much myself), but if that's the case, we shouldn't expect her to fight the final boss. The point is that if Lyn is levelled up to be one of the core party members, Sol Katti does in fact give her an extra push against the final boss, which means it's serving its purpose. Could it let her fight the final boss better than it does? Yep. My guess is that the devs were overcorrecting from Binding Blade, where they gave the eponymous weapon enough power to let Roy fight the final boss even if he was underlevelled/not much used... but then many (most?) players levelled him up a bunch and just one-rounded the final boss, which is anticlimactic.

Side note: in my experience, most blind/casual players do actually use Lyn; she's one of the most popular units (this is anecdotal, but is corroborated by Choose Your Legends). There's a bunch of reasons for that (some grounded in gameplay, more in non-gameplay), but I'm quite confident it's true.

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