What is your Ideal Transformation Mechanic?

[Fabulously Olivier]

An ideal mount/dismount system rewards you for being dismounted with higher performance (which is what I think 3H got very wrong). 

 

By the same token, a good beast system should reward you for being untransformed, but differently from being transformed. I like the idea that untransformed beasts could be good pugilists (or even use weapons with certain class promotions) while their beast forms could gain both positive and negative stats depending on the beast type. Maybe a dragon gives 1-2 range and increases Str/Ma/Def while decreasing Spd/Res/Lck/Mov. 

[DoomRPG]

33 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

An ideal mount/dismount system rewards you for being dismounted with higher performance (which is what I think 3H got very wrong). 

3H Dismounting system is in practice a "Flying units don't have any weaknesses to counter their strengths." Its rather silly and you'd think IS would notice long before 3H reached Alpha.
But I guess not.

 

Quote

By the same token, a good beast system should reward you for being untransformed, but differently from being transformed. I like the idea that untransformed beasts could be good pugilists (or even use weapons with certain class promotions) while their beast forms could gain both positive and negative stats depending on the beast type. Maybe a dragon gives 1-2 range and increases Str/Ma/Def while decreasing Spd/Res/Lck/Mov. 

The idea of transformations applying stat penalties intrigues me. Sadly if it ever does happen in the main games. I guarantee IS will go out of their way to make every one a net nerf. (Like tigers getting -5 speed for +2 defense and dex.)

On the same token if you make beast units just as good as regular units while untransformed. Then the ability to transform is just a flat bonus.

That's why I decided to make them gauntlet specialists primarily. With the idea that they'll either be too weak or too slow (one or the other depending on the exact character and what they are facing) to ORKO. But can still pick off low health enemies. Preventing them from being completely worthless like Tellius Laguz are.

 

[AnonymousSpeed]

8 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Alternatively, a wolf that howls, encouragingly, to emulate rallies - specifically Rally Spectrum. 

*howls encouragingly* elicits memories of a time and place long gone, and not necessarily missed.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's what I'm thinking: the Gauge runs from -10 to +10.

You know what? I quite like this idea. It combines the convenience of my idea with a proper penalty for overextending. Sort of reminds me of the Bravely Default system in a way.

Savage Arts are a good idea. I was concerned your hibernate idea might be a bit too strong, but thinking more about it, I don't think it would be. The situation you'd want a full heal in is when you're tanking a bunch of hits in a risky situation where you can't be healed safely, which is also a situation where the bear is unlikely to have many gauge points to spare. Which makes me wonder if it would even be useful except for maintenance during down time, and whether that should be the point.

You could also have hibernate actually restore gauge, but prevent counter-attacking for a turn or something.

11 hours ago, lenticular said:

(As a little bit of an aside, I also hate the story and lore implications of this. Whenever a laguz talks about how they don't need weapons, it makes them come across as an idiot. "Sure, we're completely defenceless for half the battle and any competent beorc can just mow us down at that point, but that's just peachy! We like it that way. What would we want weapons for?")

This could also be good for unit diversity, since units of the same transformed class could have a different untransformed class. So, you might have both a raven/wind mage and a raven/swordsmaster. And while they'd be very similar while in raven form, they'd be very different overall.

Yeah, they didn't really make the laguz seem very, uh...properly sympathetic? I don't think having a purposefully regressive culture reflects positively on them or the world. For goodness sake, Radiant Dawn could at least have given them knives!

The dual-class thing isn't a bad idea, actually. Could be good not just for unit diversity, but flexibility of your army. It works kind of like reclassing, but it can be done more freely (presumably), so one unit can potentially be used to fill a mage hole or a flier hole depending on what your army needs.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

16 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

You know what? I quite like this idea. It combines the convenience of my idea with a proper penalty for overextending. Sort of reminds me of the Bravely Default system in a way.

Hey, thanks! This way, a Beast can basically go ham on any turn they start shifted... but the more fights they get into, the longer it'll take for them to shift again after reverting. So there's something of a balancing act.

On the flip side, you couldn't use chip attacks to force-revert an enemy Beast on (your) Player phase. But that was always a dishonorable strategy - face the Laguz when they're shifted, coward!

20 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Savage Arts are a good idea. I was concerned your hibernate idea might be a bit too strong, but thinking more about it, I don't think it would be. The situation you'd want a full heal in is when you're tanking a bunch of hits in a risky situation where you can't be healed safely, which is also a situation where the bear is unlikely to have many gauge points to spare. Which makes me wonder if it would even be useful except for maintenance during down time, and whether that should be the point.

You could also have hibernate actually restore gauge, but prevent counter-attacking for a turn or something.

Thanks! Hm... Maybe "Hibernate" could restore as many as 6 gauge points. But in turn, its user falls asleep until the end of the next player phase. Thus letting them stay shifted longer, but stopping them from counter-attacking (or, in the next turn, moving). Of course, you could use the Restore staff/spell to cure their sleep... the broken-ness of this combo would correlate with how available Restore is.

24 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Yeah, they didn't really make the laguz seem very, uh...properly sympathetic? I don't think having a purposefully regressive culture reflects positively on them or the world. For goodness sake, Radiant Dawn could at least have given them knives!

A shame we never get more than a cursory look at Laguz societies. Like, how's their medicine? I can't imagine a total lack of healers to be to their benefit. Then again, they're supposed to live longer than the Beorc, so... magic blood?

27 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

The dual-class thing isn't a bad idea, actually. Could be good not just for unit diversity, but flexibility of your army. It works kind of like reclassing, but it can be done more freely (presumably), so one unit can potentially be used to fill a mage hole or a flier hole depending on what your army needs.

If the next game features reclassing, perhaps the "shifter" units could change their "human" class, while their "Beast" class remains the same? So, a "Warrior who turns into a Dolphin" could reclass to become a "Druid who turns into a Dolphin". This way, they're part of the reclassing pool (unlike in DSFE), without losing their unique ability to shift (as happened in 3DSFE).

[lenticular]

11 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

On the same token if you make beast units just as good as regular units while untransformed. Then the ability to transform is just a flat bonus.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. It depends on how much control you have over the transformation. If the unit will only ever transform when you choose to, then yes, it's a pure upside. But if there is some sort of forced transformation, then that can be a downside. Even if the unit is good in both forms.

Expanding on my idea of having a full untransformed class, the transformations could work something like this. The unit has a transformation gauge ranging from -10 to +10. Every turn and every action while in beast form moves the gauge towards the negative; every turn and every action while in human form moves the gauge towards the positive. You can choose to transform into beast form whenever the gauge is positive (or zero), but you have no option and automatically transform if ever the gauge ever reaches +10. Similarly, you can transform back to human form whenever the gauge is negative (or zero), but you have no option and automatically transfrom if eever the gauge reaches -10.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:07 AM, joevar said:

that could work just right if you could access a menu the moment you get attacked like in Super robot wars series. which let you choose whether to defend, dodging, or specific counter attack . but we're stuck with whatever last used item until next move. having more option doesnt always translate into better implementation automatically in FE

Hence the ability to trade inventory when adjacent.

11 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

*howls encouragingly* elicits memories of a time and place long gone, and not necessarily missed.

Fire Emblem: Stone of Willendorf. but the Weapon Triangle is Bone -> Stick -> Stone.

[AnonymousSpeed]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:41 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

On the flip side, you couldn't use chip attacks to force-revert an enemy Beast on (your) Player phase. But that was always a dishonorable strategy - face the Laguz when they're shifted, coward!

Do no bring dishonor onto family.

On 1/14/2022 at 10:41 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Thanks! Hm... Maybe "Hibernate" could restore as many as 6 gauge points. But in turn, its user falls asleep until the end of the next player phase. Thus letting them stay shifted longer, but stopping them from counter-attacking (or, in the next turn, moving). Of course, you could use the Restore staff/spell to cure their sleep... the broken-ness of this combo would correlate with how available Restore is.

Right, because the shifted bear laguz has more defense than the unshifted one, and so even without countering they make a better tank.

They could enter a deep sleep, against which restore is helpless. Or, y'know, you could just let the player have fun. Assuming that's not an option, you could also make the gauge points dependent on staying asleep- you have to be sleeping when your next turn rolls around, and then you get the points.

On 1/14/2022 at 10:41 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

A shame we never get more than a cursory look at Laguz societies. Like, how's their medicine? I can't imagine a total lack of healers to be to their benefit. Then again, they're supposed to live longer than the Beorc, so... magic blood?

Tellius world-building actually bad. Like...unironically.

On 1/14/2022 at 10:41 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If the next game features reclassing, perhaps the "shifter" units could change their "human" class, while their "Beast" class remains the same? So, a "Warrior who turns into a Dolphin" could reclass to become a "Druid who turns into a Dolphin". This way, they're part of the reclassing pool (unlike in DSFE), without losing their unique ability to shift (as happened in 3DSFE).

I think that's fair, if transformation changes units from one role to another instead of from a weak unit to a strong one.

On 1/15/2022 at 9:56 AM, Imuabicus said:

Fire Emblem: Stone of Willendorf. but the Weapon Triangle is Bone -> Stick -> Stone.

I was thinking more about tumblr's golden age, but yeah, that works too.

[Shadow Mir]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:26 PM, lenticular said:

For me, the big problem with (non-royal, non-heron) laguz in the Tellius games is that the transformation mechanic feels like pure disadvantage, without any associated advantage. The idea seems to have been that they're amazing units half the time but basically useless the other half of the time. Which seems like a reasonable idea, except that I mostly find that it's relatively simple to have beorc units who are amazing units all of the time. Let's say I'm looking at a basic player-phase attacker. The most important metric is whether or not I one-round the enemy, and many beorc do so. At that point, it doesn't matter to me if my transformed laguz is stronger and faster; that's just overkill. The beorc unit is better because they can attack every turn while the laguz can't.

Admitedly, this is slightly less of a problem in Radiant Dawn than in Path of Radiance, due to the weird availability issues and army swapping of the former. When you just have to work with whatever you're given for a specific map, sometimes you might not have enough well-trained beorc... but mostly you do. And a well-trained beorc is just better than a well-trained laguz.

(As a little bit of an aside, I also hate the story and lore implications of this. Whenever a laguz talks about how they don't need weapons, it makes them come across as an idiot. "Sure, we're completely defenceless for half the battle and any competent beorc can just mow us down at that point, but that's just peachy! We like it that way. What would we want weapons for?")

Simply put, this is my complaints with laguz in a nutshell. It doesn't really help matters that a lot of the work is done on enemy phase, and laguz are innately handicapped there due to being range-locked.

On 1/13/2022 at 11:26 PM, lenticular said:

My idea for a solution to all this would be to make it so that transformation is not so much a boost in power, but a lateral shift that changes the type of unit. That is, I want the unit to be able to fully and meaningfully contribute both while transformed and while untransformed, but to do something different in each state. Effectively, they have two different classes.

For example, imagine a raven laguz who is a wind mage when untransformed. Or a bulky and tanky tiger who is a fast attacker (eg with TH style gauntlets) while untransformed. Or a cat/thief. Or a wolf/archer. And so on and so forth.

The idea here is that they should still be good units in both forms, but very different. The advantage here is that you're effectively filling two combat roles for the cost of one deployment slot. The disadvantage is that they don't fill either role as reliably as a non-transforming unit and that you have to be careful to shift them between roles and not get caught out of position.

This could also be good for unit diversity, since units of the same transformed class could have a different untransformed class. So, you might have both a raven/wind mage and a raven/swordsmaster. And while they'd be very similar while in raven form, they'd be very different overall.

Personally, I'm rather leery of this idea, because oftentimes, when a unit or class is set up to fulfill multiple roles, they fail to actually be good at any of them. Like the Oni classes in FE Fates. Oni Chieftain looks like a good class on paper, and it certainly got a lot of hype early in Fates' lifespan, but when you look beneath the surface, it ends up being more of a Master of None (that being said, it didn't help matters that the one natural Oni Savage is pretty lackluster as a unit).

On 1/13/2022 at 11:35 PM, DoomRPG said:

That's generally another issue with the laguz. Often a beorc was just as strong as a transformed Laguz. Sure the laguz might technically have higher stats. But their strike weapons are consistently terrible. They also could never get 1-2 range and so on and so forth. (There is also the fact that since Laguz growths were horrid. Often Beorc had higher stats anyway!)

The strike issue was only one in Path of Radiance. Radiant Dawn did fix this by allowing strikes to get stronger, but unfortunately, it was really slow to the point where you pretty much have to go out of your way to get most laguz to S strike, let alone SS.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[vanguard333]

I don't know about ideal, but I'd like to see Fire Emblem experiment with a playable version of the monster mechanic from Three Houses; essentially making a transformation mechanic where the limitation doesn't come in the form of a gauge or a limited-uses stone, but in the character taking up multiple tiles when transformed.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Have four characters fuse into one giant monster.

[Red Dingo]

Oh, like a megazord.