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DoomRPG

My Ideas for FE7 Remake

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Ahem

So what happens when your locked into IS burning office studio and demanded to plan out the FE7 remake?

Well…

First things first. Priorities!

 

 

 

1. Change up the story and characters to be more unique, as well as cleaning up a few plot holes when possible. The ideal is to improve the story, without being unrecognizable. Primarily focusing on Nergel and his morphs, making them more than “Gharnef with impossible to find backstory.” (Personally I quite like Nergal. But also. I think he’s presented awfully.)

2. Create a distinction from standard FE play to suit with the game’s story. As a reminder for FE7 players. The game is the only one in the current FE library to never involve a war. None. Nadda. Nilch. Canonically Eliwood and his pals save the world with zero invisible green shirts and zero battalions. I do personally like the gambit abilities enough to want to keep some of them around, but on a more character basis. More detail down below.

3. Lead up to any potential FE6 remakes being done as a sequel. I would like to stress that this is mostly on a character basis. With epilogues and hopefully a system to even pass inheritance if you get certain endings. (Think Radiant Dawn rather than a FE4 Generation.) The story as a whole will have little connection to FE6 outside of the Bern Desmond subplot. Nergal will have nothing to do with any FE6 spoilers.

4. With deep personal regret. We will make Mark into an actual avatar, because every FE game has one nowadays. I will resume writing the rest of these after I put out the studio flames with vomit.

 

 

Anyhow now that I’m back. To go into more detail with Mark
1. They are a purely supportive unit. Yes you will join the field of battle as a tactician like Robin. Unlike Robin, Mark is neither a mage nor myrmidon (or fighter or… You get the point.) and has no use in combat. Like a healer being attacked, if Mark gets into battle, a tactical error was made.
2. Either Mark is going to be completely indistinguishable between M/F. Or the differences depending on gender offer different gameplay and strategies. (I prefer the latter personally since it means more ways to play the game. But the former is vastly superior to one gender being objectively better. As is the case with Robin and Byleth.)

 

 

First things first. The Lyn mode is going to be expanded, then restructured. Namely only about 3-4 chapters of actual tutorial. (Ending once you get Dorcas pretty much.)
The biggest addition to the tutorial will be an explanation on the new "gadget" system. Which basically replace battalions/gambits.
Gadgets offer no stat boosts, recharge every map, and are character dependent. Characters have a max of 3 gadgets they can swap between on battle preparations. They get one just by existing. One by reach lvl 20 unpromoted. And one reaching lvl 10 promoted. The exception to the 3 max are the Lords and Mark. Who get four gadgets, and then five respectively.

Otherwise with the excessive tutoralization being gone. I have little complaints with Lyn mode's story or plot. My biggest gripe is Lyn's avatar obsession which would later poison her character. Remove it and its practically perfect. Small scale, connects to the main plot later, characterization for everyone.

However while I did want to reduce Lyn mode's over tutorial burden.
I actually wish to add one to Eliwood's story.
Because for FE7. I think it would be the perfect time to reintroduce the Thracia Capture mechanics.

Yes. I'm serious. Your going to need to scrounge your equipment over the bodies of the Black Fang and Nergal's Morphs.
To facilitate this, and give him a niche over the more combat capable lords. Eliwood's personal should facilitate better capturing. Perhaps only a penalty of 20% compared to 50%. Empathizing his pacifistic and empathetic nature. Unwilling to take life unless absolutely necessary.

Speaking of the Morphs. In vanilla FE7. They were normal enemies, but even easier as their luck was gutted. Which meant even less evade and a chance for fun crits.

Starting around chapter 16 and on-off from then on. Certain enemies (except on ones with FoW) are randomized to either be a morph. Or to not be a morph.
Morph's always have a zero in luck. And both their growth and what luck they did have (as a normal enemy) is transitioned into other stats. Favoring STR, SPD, DEF. Often inflating those stats well beyond other enemies and allowing them to be potentially threatening. Were it not zero luck tanks avoid and gives them particularly low crit avoid. Making them vulnerable on player phase.


What are your thoughts on my suggestions? Or perhaps if you were stuck in the same situation. Would you do anything differently? (Escaping from the fire is not a valid option.)

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On 1/16/2022 at 2:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

1. Change up the story and characters to be more unique, as well as cleaning up a few plot holes when possible. The ideal is to improve the story, without being unrecognizable. Primarily focusing on Nergel and his morphs, making them more than “Gharnef with impossible to find backstory.” (Personally I quite like Nergal. But also. I think he’s presented awfully.)

I would remove the bizarre "Nils must reach level 7 in Lyn's Story" requirement to access the "Nergal backstory" chapter (19xx, I think?). Just give it to any player who defeats Kishuna on Hector's Story.

On 1/16/2022 at 2:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

Anyhow now that I’m back. To go into more detail with Mark
1. They are a purely supportive unit. Yes you will join the field of battle as a tactician like Robin. Unlike Robin, Mark is neither a mage nor myrmidon (or fighter or… You get the point.) and has no use in combat. Like a healer being attacked, if Mark gets into battle, a tactical error was made.
2. Either Mark is going to be completely indistinguishable between M/F. Or the differences depending on gender offer different gameplay and strategies. (I prefer the latter personally since it means more ways to play the game. But the former is vastly superior to one gender being objectively better. As is the case with Robin and Byleth.)

I'm here for it. Hm, what if Mark was permitted to break the usual "5 total support ranks" limit, while still being constrained to a single A-support? Perhaps potential support partners could be a gender difference. Either version of Mark could support the three Lords and Merlinus, while M!Mark gets supports with Rebecca, Priscilla, Isadora, and Pent (C/B), whereas F!Mark supports Lowen, Canas, Geitz, and Louise (C/B).

On a related note, with Mark's addition, characters can have up to 8 potential support partners, versus the previous 7.

As a non-combat unit, maybe Mark could gain a level for every chapter they survive, like Merlinus? Or else gain EXP based on their performance per chapter - if they got a unit killed or took too many turns, they'll gain less than 100 experience. After level 20, they could promote in the next chapter (a la Merlinus), giving them more movement and better defensive stats.

On 1/16/2022 at 2:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

First things first. The Lyn mode is going to be expanded, then restructured. Namely only about 3-4 chapters of actual tutorial. (Ending once you get Dorcas pretty much.)
The biggest addition to the tutorial will be an explanation on the new "gadget" system. Which basically replace battalions/gambits.
Gadgets offer no stat boosts, recharge every map, and are character dependent. Characters have a max of 3 gadgets they can swap between on battle preparations. They get one just by existing. One by reach lvl 20 unpromoted. And one reaching lvl 10 promoted. The exception to the 3 max are the Lords and Mark. Who get four gadgets, and then five respectively.

So... what is a gadget, exactly? It is a passive skill? A player-phase technique? A combat art? When you say characters can "swap between them", does that mean that Kent can swap between his own "Gadget A" and "Gadget B"? Or that Kent can swap his "Gadget A" for Sain's "Gadget Z"? I might support this introduction, but I need to know what it actually is.

On 1/16/2022 at 2:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

However while I did want to reduce Lyn mode's over tutorial burden.
I actually wish to add one to Eliwood's story.
Because for FE7. I think it would be the perfect time to reintroduce the Thracia Capture mechanics.

Yes. I'm serious. Your going to need to scrounge your equipment over the bodies of the Black Fang and Nergal's Morphs.
To facilitate this, and give him a niche over the more combat capable lords. Eliwood's personal should facilitate better capturing. Perhaps only a penalty of 20% compared to 50%. Empathizing his pacifistic and empathetic nature. Unwilling to take life unless absolutely necessary.

I like this. Capture was one of the coolest mechanics Thracia brought to the table, and it would fit FE7 as well. Maybe "Capturing" certain enemies, like Lloyd or Linus, could even have story implications.

When you say "Eliwood's personal", do you mean a "gadget", or a "skill"? Either such system would be new to the remake, and I worry that too much new stuff will create more mechanical bloat than is necessary.

On 1/16/2022 at 2:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

Starting around chapter 16 and on-off from then on. Certain enemies (except on ones with FoW) are randomized to either be a morph. Or to not be a morph.
Morph's always have a zero in luck. And both their growth and what luck they did have (as a normal enemy) is transitioned into other stats. Favoring STR, SPD, DEF. Often inflating those stats well beyond other enemies and allowing them to be potentially threatening. Were it not zero luck tanks avoid and gives them particularly low crit avoid. Making them vulnerable on player phase.

I don't like the "random change" aspect, it seems to screw with the worldbuilding. The Black Fang includes both human assassins, many who joined under Brendan Reed's direction, and Nergal's Morphs. I think there's a place for both types in the narrative.

Broadly speaking, I would favor making human enemies the more threatening ones (the Black Fang is supposed to be an association of assassins, not a front of flunkies, after all), while letting Morphs be more lackluster ("quantity over quality", so to speak). There would be exceptions for Morph bosses, like Denning or Limstella, but I would leave your typical Morphs as less-threatening mooks.

On 1/16/2022 at 2:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

What are your thoughts on my suggestions? Or perhaps if you were stuck in the same situation. Would you do anything differently? (Escaping from the fire is not a valid option.)

I know this is an older topic, but I like a lot of these ideas! A few others I would add:

- Introduce a Turnwheel, and integrate it into the Tactician ranking system. So you don't have to reset the full chapter to undo one death. However, every time you use it, your ranking will start to slip, so be warned!

- Some class reforms: Armor Knights gain Axes, Generals gain Swords, Cavaliers lose Swords, Paladins lose Axes, and Wyvern Masters trade in Swords for Axes. To name a few.

- Branched promotions, similar to Sacred Stones. Lowen can now choose between Paladin and Silver Knight (Lance/Bow), Legault can go Assassin or Rogue, and Nino picks between Sage and Sorceress (Anima/Light/Dark). Some enemies and bosses would be retconned into the introduced classes (i.e. Great Knight Darin, Sorceress Sonia). This would not apply to Lords, pre-promotes, Mark, Merlinus, or the Refreshers.

- Handful of new playable characters. On another thread, I came up with "Hinan", a female Nomad who would join Lyn, early in her quest, at Dayan's urging. And I believe @Jotari suggested a playable younger Niime, as an additional (and female) Dark Magic user. Don't wanna go overboard, though, since I think FE7 has a pretty comfortable cast size already.

- Make supports grow more quickly. Add a flat 10 points for two units simply being fielded in the same map, then impose a sensible per-chapter cap (say, 40 points - 30 points beyond the initial +10) to discourage "spam End Turn" techniques. In the particular cases of Vaida, Karla, and Renault, let them start with ~70 points with all potential partners (so a C-support is near-immediate). Also, remove the per-chapter cap starting with "Victory or Death", so the late joiners' supports are attainable.

- Modern QoL introductions: Danger Zones, overworld HP bars, skip/speed-up enemy phase, etc.

- Full voice acting.

Anyway, that's my "wish list" as it stands. Whaddya think?

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*Make all of Hector's exclusive chapters paralogues. Because making them main story chapters just plain ruins the numbering system of the game as Eliwood and Hector go out of sync. That bothers me to no end.

*An extra chapter where you get Mulagir for Lyn to use and meet Hannon. There are so many reasons to do this. It's just plain weird they do it for Hector and Eliwood while Lyn gets a random sword never mentioned before or since that is allegedly as powerful (but in reality sucks). But, better yet, Mulagir is the only legendary weapon whose resting place we never visit in Binding Blade, so it'd be just downright cool to do so in Blazing Blade (and then toss Sol Kattin in a chest or something during the chapters as it does exist already).

*The only real issue with the above is that Lyn doesn't use bows at base and might not be promoted. To that I say give her bows at base. Why the hell not? She needs the help as a unit. As for her promotion to Blade Lord, give her an increased crit rate to justify a difference.

*In the same vein as above, give Eliwood lances at base too, with his horse being the justification for his promotion. Fire Emblem has a bizarre reluctance to give tier 1 units two weapon types, unless they happen to be cavaliers, which are one of the tier 1 classes least needing a second weapon type to be good. Eliwood and Lyn are lords, giving them lances and bows at base 

*While I'm talking the legendary weapons, Aureola being in this game is sort of weird. Athos gives our heroes their legendary weapons as prfs, then brings Forblaze for himself as a prf, makes sense...and then he just randomly has Aureola and Aureola alone that Lucius or Serra can use. Why are the rules different for Aureola!? Either make it a prf to Athos, make all the legendary weapons non prf (but the lords can use them regardless of weapon rank like Shadow Dragon Excalibur/Aura) or, probably my favorite solution, introduce another character to be Aureola's prf wielder. Aureola being present suggests Athos went to the church for help, so why not bring along a young Yoder to be Aureola's wielder for end game? And, while we're at it, let Braimmond join the party using Apocylpse. Would that be over kill of Gotohs pushing out your regular army like in Radiant Dawn? Well, if so, make it a choice at some point in the game that gives you wither Athos or Braimmond for the end game.

**An alternate option to randomly bringing in Yoder is making Mark a light mage with Aureola as his/her prf.

*Reclassing is always fun and I will always suggest Fates style reclassing in every remake. Assassin Raven yo!

On 1/16/2022 at 10:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

However while I did want to reduce Lyn mode's over tutorial burden.
I actually wish to add one to Eliwood's story.
Because for FE7. I think it would be the perfect time to reintroduce the Thracia Capture mechanics.

Yes. I'm serious. Your going to need to scrounge your equipment over the bodies of the Black Fang and Nergal's Morphs.
To facilitate this, and give him a niche over the more combat capable lords. Eliwood's personal should facilitate better capturing. Perhaps only a penalty of 20% compared to 50%. Empathizing his pacifistic and empathetic nature. Unwilling to take life unless absolutely necessary.

Thracia capture mechanics, all of the yes! Denning must be saved. Though how would this work with Llyod and Linus? Their characters depend on the fact that you kill their brother. I guess they could just shut off the capture mechanic in that one scenario like Fates does, but that feels like a bit of a cheat.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- Branched promotions, similar to Sacred Stones. Lowen can now choose between Paladin and Silver Knight (Lance/Bow), Legault can go Assassin or Rogue, and Nino picks between Sage and Sorceress (Anima/Light/Dark). Some enemies and bosses would be retconned into the introduced classes (i.e. Great Knight Darin, Sorceress Sonia). This would not apply to Lords, pre-promotes, Mark, Merlinus, or the Refreshers.

Honestly, why not give the Lords branched promotions? There's no real downside to it. Let me make Lyn a psuedo nomadic trooper (of course also just let me do that via reclassing).

Edited by Jotari

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Thracia capture mechanics, all of the yes! Denning must be saved. Though how would this work with Llyod and Linus? Their characters depend on the fact that you kill their brother. I guess they could just shut off the capture mechanic in that one scenario like Fates does, but that feels like a bit of a cheat.

You don't kill the boss of "Four-Fanged Offense", however. They survive, only to be attacked by Limstella after the battle, and robbed of their quintessence. If Capture is introduced, then this could be the outcome if you Capture them. Whereas, if you defeat them normally, then they just die without Limstella's involvement. 

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

*While I'm talking the legendary weapons, Aureola being in this game is sort of weird. Athos gives our heroes their legendary weapons as prfs, then brings Forblaze for himself as a prf, makes sense...and then he just randomly has Aureola and Aureola alone that Lucius or Serra can use. Why are the rules different for Aureola!? Either make it a prf to Athos, make all the legendary weapons non prf (but the lords can use them regardless of weapon rank like Shadow Dragon Excalibur/Aura) or, probably my favorite solution, introduce another character to be Aureola's prf wielder. Aureola being present suggests Athos went to the church for help, so why not bring along a young Yoder to be Aureola's wielder for end game? And, while we're at it, let Braimmond join the party using Apocylpse. Would that be over kill of Gotohs pushing out your regular army like in Radiant Dawn? Well, if so, make it a choice at some point in the game that gives you wither Athos or Braimmond for the end game.

What if Renault got Aureola as a Prf? It wouldn't make a whole lot of narrative sense, but it'd give him something interesting to do beyond staffbotting. Maybe have Kishuna drop it in his last chapter, giving these two one more connection.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

*In the same vein as above, give Eliwood lances at base too, with his horse being the justification for his promotion. Fire Emblem has a bizarre reluctance to give tier 1 units two weapon types, unless they happen to be cavaliers, which are one of the tier 1 classes least needing a second weapon type to be good. Eliwood and Lyn are lords, giving them lances and bows at base

I'd be down for this, if Hector also got Swords at base. In that case, though, what should his promotion offer? Lances? An additional skill?

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

*The only real issue with the above is that Lyn doesn't use bows at base and might not be promoted. To that I say give her bows at base. Why the hell not? She needs the help as a unit. As for her promotion to Blade Lord, give her an increased crit rate to justify a difference.

Alternatively, we could get rid of Heaven Seals and give the other Lords story-based promotions. Like, Lyn could promote after the chapter where you recruit Raven, as a gift from her grandfather. It's super early, but she could use the help. And the non-main Lord could promote right after giving Hellene the Fire Emblem (so after Battle Before Dawn).

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

*An extra chapter where you get Mulagir for Lyn to use and meet Hannon. There are so many reasons to do this. It's just plain weird they do it for Hector and Eliwood while Lyn gets a random sword never mentioned before or since that is allegedly as powerful (but in reality sucks). But, better yet, Mulagir is the only legendary weapon whose resting place we never visit in Binding Blade, so it'd be just downright cool to do so in Blazing Blade (and then toss Sol Kattin in a chest or something during the chapters as it does exist already).

Maybe this chapter would be exclusive to if the player played Lyn's Story in advance? Could be an extra motivator to do so.

Also, what if the three Lords "split up" for their respective legendary weapon missions? So you couldn't bring Eliwood to the Armads chapter, or vice-versa. It makes some sense, if the goal is getting to the weapons ASAP.

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Make all of Hector's exclusive chapters paralogues. Because making them main story chapters just plain ruins the numbering system of the game as Eliwood and Hector go out of sync. That bothers me to no end.

That'd be great for the numbering, but I wonder - should Hector-exclusive chapters be optional, like the existing Paralogues? Or should they be required, as they are in the base Hector's Story?

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

You don't kill the boss of "Four-Fanged Offense", however. They survive, only to be attacked by Limstella after the battle, and robbed of their quintessence. If Capture is introduced, then this could be the outcome if you Capture them. Whereas, if you defeat them normally, then they just die without Limstella's involvement. 

Oh shit, I totally forgot about that. Capture actually makes more sense witht hat plot point present.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

What if Renault got Aureola as a Prf? It wouldn't make a whole lot of narrative sense, but it'd give him something interesting to do beyond staffbotting. Maybe have Kishuna drop it in his last chapter, giving these two one more connection.

Eh, I'd be wary of giving such importance to Renault.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'd be down for this, if Hector also got Swords at base. In that case, though, what should his promotion offer? Lances? An additional skill?

Hector doesn't really need another weapon at base. Though if we were to get swords, I'd be fine with him just promoting without getting anything (other than armoured status, which in a perfect world would have some conceivable benefit).

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also, what if the three Lords "split up" for their respective legendary weapon missions? So you couldn't bring Eliwood to the Armads chapter, or vice-versa. It makes some sense, if the goal is getting to the weapons ASAP.

Yeah that definitely makes sense. Not just you can't bring the other lords, but also whomever you deployed alongside them (the deployment slots are super low for these chapters already so you wouldn't run out of characters).

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That'd be great for the numbering, but I wonder - should Hector-exclusive chapters be optional, like the existing Paralogues? Or should they be required, as they are in the base Hector's Story?

As far as I remember they're complete filler as is, so making them optional wouldn't change anything.

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15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

As far as I remember they're complete filler as is, so making them optional wouldn't change anything.

Hilariously, the three Lords change out of their "disguises" for Crazed Beast, only to change right back into them for the very next chapter!

Also Pascal makes no sense as a member of the pre-Nergal Black Fang.

17 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Yeah that definitely makes sense. Not just you can't bring the other lords, but also whomever you deployed alongside them (the deployment slots are super low for these chapters already so you wouldn't run out of characters).

Yeah, it could look something like this:

In Eliwood's Story, chapter 28 is "Valorous Roland". The player can pick any other units, save for Hector and Lyn. Once completed, if the player is playing on a savefile with Lyn's Story data, an optional paralogue becomes available. This is chapter 28x, "Hanon's Hope". Lyn is forced, while the player can't bring Eliwood, Hector, or anyone who was sent to chapter 28.

This is the same in Hector's Story, except that newly-renumbered chapter 28 is "The Berserker", which Eliwood can't participate in. Either way, they all reunite at Roland's cave in Ostia before the scene with Ninian. All three missions are assumed to happen canonically (so each of them gets their legendary weapon before the Endgame), the only variable is which ones are playable.

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Hector doesn't really need another weapon at base. Though if we were to get swords, I'd be fine with him just promoting without getting anything (other than armoured status, which in a perfect world would have some conceivable benefit).

Yeah but Hector's promotion already sucks (no extra movement, harder to Rescue-carry him), and this would make it even suckier. Whereas having him Axe-locked before promotion would leave him looking less special than the other Lords. TBH I don't think anyone needs a bonus weapon from the get-go, if they just got earlier story-based promotions like I suggested.

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Eh, I'd be wary of giving such importance to Renault.

Yeah that's fair. But then, I don't think there's anyone who fits Aureola. Adding in young Yoder sounds nice, but he'd make Renault even more redundant, while simultaneously being overshadowed himself by resident actual-Gotoh Athos. Meanwhile, neither Serra nor Lucius is special enough to get it as a Prf. I could maybe see Mark, if they're made a Light magic user, but TBH I kind of like the proposal to leave them as a pure support unit.

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On 1/16/2022 at 8:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

Anyhow now that I’m back. To go into more detail with Mark
1. They are a purely supportive unit. Yes you will join the field of battle as a tactician like Robin. Unlike Robin, Mark is neither a mage nor myrmidon (or fighter or… You get the point.) and has no use in combat. Like a healer being attacked, if Mark gets into battle, a tactical error was made.
2. Either Mark is going to be completely indistinguishable between M/F. Or the differences depending on gender offer different gameplay and strategies. (I prefer the latter personally since it means more ways to play the game. But the former is vastly superior to one gender being objectively better. As is the case with Robin and Byleth.)

This is the only version of a playable Mark I will accept. Making them a pure support unit is an idea I`m surprised I never thought of before, but it works really well. It gives them a unique niche without being broken.

On 1/16/2022 at 8:42 AM, DoomRPG said:

First things first. The Lyn mode is going to be expanded, then restructured. Namely only about 3-4 chapters of actual tutorial. (Ending once you get Dorcas pretty much.)
The biggest addition to the tutorial will be an explanation on the new "gadget" system. Which basically replace battalions/gambits.
Gadgets offer no stat boosts, recharge every map, and are character dependent. Characters have a max of 3 gadgets they can swap between on battle preparations. They get one just by existing. One by reach lvl 20 unpromoted. And one reaching lvl 10 promoted. The exception to the 3 max are the Lords and Mark. Who get four gadgets, and then five respectively.

An interesting idea, makes me think of the bands in Path of Radiance or the starshards in FE3/12

On 4/9/2022 at 4:45 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm here for it. Hm, what if Mark was permitted to break the usual "5 total support ranks" limit, while still being constrained to a single A-support? Perhaps potential support partners could be a gender difference. Either version of Mark could support the three Lords and Merlinus, while M!Mark gets supports with Rebecca, Priscilla, Isadora, and Pent (C/B), whereas F!Mark supports Lowen, Canas, Geitz, and Louise (C/B).

On a related note, with Mark's addition, characters can have up to 8 potential support partners, versus the previous 7.

As a non-combat unit, maybe Mark could gain a level for every chapter they survive, like Merlinus? Or else gain EXP based on their performance per chapter - if they got a unit killed or took too many turns, they'll gain less than 100 experience. After level 20, they could promote in the next chapter (a la Merlinus), giving them more movement and better defensive stats.

Another set of ideas I can dig. Limiting experience based on performance not only works from a gameplay standpoint, it can also tie into the story in interesting ways. Perhaps make their inability to fight a key part of their characterization in supports, particularly with those who can. Just curious, why does Pent inly go up to B-rank, but not Canas, who is also married?

On 4/9/2022 at 10:13 AM, Jotari said:

Aureola being present suggests Athos went to the church for help, so why not bring along a young Yoder to be Aureola's wielder for end game? And, while we're at it, let Braimmond join the party using Apocylpse. Would that be over kill of Gotohs pushing out your regular army like in Radiant Dawn? Well, if so, make it a choice at some point in the game that gives you wither Athos or Braimmond for the end game.

I can get behind this, like in Path of Radiance, you choose between Athos, Braimmond and Yoder for the final chapter and each come with their PRF legendary weapon. You still get the lords weapons of course.

On 4/9/2022 at 4:45 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- Introduce a Turnwheel, and integrate it into the Tactician ranking system. So you don't have to reset the full chapter to undo one death. However, every time you use it, your ranking will start to slip, so be warned!

Yes, I agree with this so much! It gives the player some breathing room while still penalizing them for over relying on it. 

On 4/9/2022 at 4:45 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

- Make supports grow more quickly. Add a flat 10 points for two units simply being fielded in the same map, then impose a sensible per-chapter cap (say, 40 points - 30 points beyond the initial +10) to discourage "spam End Turn" techniques. In the particular cases of Vaida, Karla, and Renault, let them start with ~70 points with all potential partners (so a C-support is near-immediate). Also, remove the per-chapter cap starting with "Victory or Death", so the late joiners' supports are attainable

Yes please, I wanna see these supports without waiting 30 turns, thank you very much.

On 4/9/2022 at 10:13 AM, Jotari said:

*Make all of Hector's exclusive chapters paralogues. Because making them main story chapters just plain ruins the numbering system of the game as Eliwood and Hector go out of sync. That bothers me to no end.

*An extra chapter where you get Mulagir for Lyn to use and meet Hannon. There are so many reasons to do this. It's just plain weird they do it for Hector and Eliwood while Lyn gets a random sword never mentioned before or since that is allegedly as powerful (but in reality sucks). But, better yet, Mulagir is the only legendary weapon whose resting place we never visit in Binding Blade, so it'd be just downright cool to do so in Blazing Blade (and then toss Sol Kattin in a chest or something during the chapters as it does exist already).

*The only real issue with the above is that Lyn doesn't use bows at base and might not be promoted. To that I say give her bows at base. Why the hell not? She needs the help as a unit. As for her promotion to Blade Lord, give her an increased crit rate to justify a difference.

*In the same vein as above, give Eliwood lances at base too, with his horse being the justification for his promotion. Fire Emblem has a bizarre reluctance to give tier 1 units two weapon types, unless they happen to be cavaliers, which are one of the tier 1 classes least needing a second weapon type to be good. Eliwood and Lyn are lords, giving them lances and bows at base 

I agree with the first one.

Another great suggestion

Honestly, I feel like the lords having two weapons at base runs into one of two problems. Either, one weapon becomes virtually uses because the other is so much better (ala Corrin), or their ability to switch between these weapons breaks the game in half.

 

Aside from the standard QoL improvements and letting some of the older FE6 characters show up (Dayan and Neimi come to mind), I have a couple of ideas, but they are quite random. My main goal is to tie Lyn more into the main story. 

The only idea I can think of is maybe, instead of fighting Erik, you instead fight a Caelin commander/general that disapproves of Lyn being named heriess of Caelin, partly due to her Sacean blood, partly cause of doubting her claim to the inheritance. Maybe throw in some classic sexisim for good measure.

Another would be to give her a proper conclusion to her arc by giving her an opportunity to fight the bandits who killed her clan. Heck, it could even be used to highlight the differences between her and her fellow lords. Maybe have her want them all cut down, while Eliwood wants to know the why to understand them. This could lead to some friction between them, which Hector could help resolve.

Also, either have Ninan stay dead, or don`t have Eliwood be forced to kill her thanks to Durandal for that one scene and no other time. 

And of course, don`t lock away the main villain`s backstory behind paralogues with obtuse as hell requirements.

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2 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Aside from the standard QoL improvements and letting some of the older FE6 characters show up (Dayan and Neimi come to mind), I have a couple of ideas, but they are quite random. My main goal is to tie Lyn more into the main story. 

Niime you surely mean...Niime, Ninian, Neimi, wow Fire Emblem had some weird affixation with the Ni prefix in the GBA days. It's not even all that common a sound for names.

Edited by Jotari

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2 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Another set of ideas I can dig. Limiting experience based on performance not only works from a gameplay standpoint, it can also tie into the story in interesting ways. Perhaps make their inability to fight a key part of their characterization in supports, particularly with those who can. Just curious, why does Pent inly go up to B-rank, but not Canas, who is also married?

Thanks! Well, Canas can already A-support with characters in vanilla FE7, such as Nino. Note that A-support != "marriage" or "paired ending". Canas' marriage and ending aren't affected by whoever he supports. 

TBH Canas was just a "for example". If the goal is "make all of Mark's A-support paired endings", and Canas wouldn't jive with that, then we could swap in someone else.

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Niime you surely mean...Niime, Ninian, Neimi, wow Fire Emblem had some weird affixation with the Ni prefix in the GBA days. It's not even all that common a sound for names.

Also Nils and Nino. Clearly, you're playing as the Knights who say "Ni!".

2 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Yes, I agree with this so much! It gives the player some breathing room while still penalizing them for over relying on it.

Thanks again. I do wonder if the count should still be limited, for players who don't care about ranking? Personally, I consider more an element of convenience than anything else, so I don't think it needs to be limited. On the flip side, perfectionists may say "well if I'm being punished for rewinding, then we may as well not have the Turnwheel at all!" Long story short, I can't see a way to satisfy every player.

3 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

I can get behind this, like in Path of Radiance, you choose between Athos, Braimmond and Yoder for the final chapter and each come with their PRF legendary weapon. You still get the lords weapons of course.

This would be an interesting way to do it gameplay-wise, but it's hard to find a narrative-satisfying means to make the other two "sit the battle out". Plus, Bramimond has a story role re: bringing back Ninian (even if it's a dumb plot point, they're probably keeping it). And a younger Yoder can't possibly be on par with a near-thousand-year-old "Living Legend".

3 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

The only idea I can think of is maybe, instead of fighting Erik, you instead fight a Caelin commander/general that disapproves of Lyn being named heriess of Caelin, partly due to her Sacean blood, partly cause of doubting her claim to the inheritance. Maybe throw in some classic sexisim for good measure.

Over on another thread, Jotari and I brainstormed a Karel rework. Basically, he'd be a Taliver bandit who hunts Lyn down, both in her Story and later in Eliwood/Hector's Story. He'd function as a recurring boss, kind of like Galzus from Thracia. So conversely, becoming strong enough to defeat him becomes part of Lyn's motivation. In this version, you'd recruit him with Karla, just before the Endgame, and Lyn realizes that her present friends are more important than past scores to settle. Or else you kill Karel, and Lyn feels surprisingly hollow about avenging her parents.

I definitely wouldn't want to cut Erik. I think he's a super-interesting minor antagonist. He works hard for the approval of a father who abandons him at the drop of a lance. I kind of wish Erik were made this game's "fourth Lord" - first joining on a mission to redeem his father from Ephidel, then with the goal of defeating Nergal. He'd have a really interesting "frenemies" dynamic with the other Lords. Then again, this would screw with his function in FE6, so.

I do like the idea of Lyn dealing with prejudice by race and sex, although your suggestion sounds a lot like what she already went through with Marquess... Araphen, was it? Rath's superior back in Lyn's Story.

3 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Aside from the standard QoL improvements and letting some of the older FE6 characters show up (Dayan and Neimi come to mind), I have a couple of ideas, but they are quite random. My main goal is to tie Lyn more into the main story. 

I like the idea of each of them at least making an appearance! So long as it makes sense with the narrative, and isn't pure fanservice. I suggested on another thread, actually having Lyn meet Dayan in her Story, and being joined by his niece (a female Nomad) on her quest.

3 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

And of course, don`t lock away the main villain`s backstory behind paralogues with obtuse as hell requirements.

At the very least, cut out the "level 7 Nils" requirement. That shit made no sense.

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I like most of the changes! The return of capture mechanics could make for some fun unit builds and head-canons. Going with that, I'll offer something of a compromise (for me personally at least) - the option for specific units to marry the captured units. Units who have kids in FE 6 or units who will be reintroduced in FE6's remake as the parents of new characters could marry captured units and gain bonuses from them. The supports would be completely generic in this scenario, something I'm usually 100% against, but I can let it slide here. 

The other change I'd make is to Mark as an Avatar. I don't like your idea, frankly. Yes, I get it, but having a unit on the field that doesn't really participate is nothing more than a drag. Sure, it may make sense from a story or theoretical standpoint, but if the gameplay isn't fun because of that one sticking point, you may need to either change the gameplay or change the character. Just make Mark an aspiring tactician who, after seeing Lyn fight so hard in the prologue chapter, decides to learn to fight too. Mark is a character who has all of these lofty goals as a tactician, but quickly learns that a battlefield isn't like textbooks, that they need to learn how to fight in order to lead better. This inspiration is what will push them to join Lyn on her journey as well as give us a reason Mark is a playable character. From there, giving Mark can take the path of Robin. (Although I am partial to the rom-hack The Lion Throne's Tactician being a Dark Mage.) 

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1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

I like most of the changes! The return of capture mechanics could make for some fun unit builds and head-canons. Going with that, I'll offer something of a compromise (for me personally at least) - the option for specific units to marry the captured units. Units who have kids in FE 6 or units who will be reintroduced in FE6's remake as the parents of new characters could marry captured units and gain bonuses from them. The supports would be completely generic in this scenario, something I'm usually 100% against, but I can let it slide here. 

I've read this sentence like six times and I still don't get it. Do you mean "FE7 characters whose kids appear in FE6, or who themselves would appear in the FE6 remake, will now be able to marry captured units."?

If I'm reading that right, I don't get the draw, exactly? Capturing enemy units, then getting them to marry you, falls somewhere on a spectrum from

Spoiler

"Stockholm Syndrome"-y to "Rape"-y

At least from my point of view. Also, Thracia capture functions very differently from Fates capture. You can't capture Generics and make them fight for your side. Instead, you capture them to fleece them of their swag, before releasing them. There are a handful of cases where you want to capture and hold a unit, to secure an item/event/recruitment/paralogue. For instance, maybe an FE7 remake would have you "Capture" and hold on to Legault, in order to recruit him. Or "Capture" Kishuna, in his final appearance, to give a different ending scene if Renault was fielded.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

The other change I'd make is to Mark as an Avatar. I don't like your idea, frankly. Yes, I get it, but having a unit on the field that doesn't really participate is nothing more than a drag. Sure, it may make sense from a story or theoretical standpoint, but if the gameplay isn't fun because of that one sticking point, you may need to either change the gameplay or change the character. Just make Mark an aspiring tactician who, after seeing Lyn fight so hard in the prologue chapter, decides to learn to fight too. Mark is a character who has all of these lofty goals as a tactician, but quickly learns that a battlefield isn't like textbooks, that they need to learn how to fight in order to lead better. This inspiration is what will push them to join Lyn on her journey as well as give us a reason Mark is a playable character. From there, giving Mark can take the path of Robin. (Although I am partial to the rom-hack The Lion Throne's Tactician being a Dark Mage.) 

Soren and Micaiah are almost "Dark Mage Tacticians". They both have the Dark affinity, but can only use Anima and Light magic, respectively. 

Anyway, I think a "pure support" Avatar could play really interestingly. Maybe give Mark an "Authority" effect where, based on how many Tactician stars they've amassed, they provide combat boosts to all allies within a certain range? Actually, I think this effect happens in the base FE7, but without any field placement factor. They could also function as a "micro-Convoy", able to carry items and weapons other allies don't have room for.

On the other hand, a combat-ready Mark would likely be much more attractive to new players, and to those whose familiarity with Avatars started with Robin. They'd likely wind up a more impressive unit that way, too, perhaps with more interesting customization options. I just hope they're not centralizing or dominant to the same degree that Robin was.

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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I've read this sentence like six times and I still don't get it. Do you mean "FE7 characters whose kids appear in FE6, or who themselves would appear in the FE6 remake, will now be able to marry captured units."?

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I mean "New Units introduced in an FE 6 Remake, whose parents will be old units from FE7." So, say Serra has a son. The son is now playable in FE 6. The son's father could have been anyone from a character from the original game (Hector, Matthew, Erk, etc.) or one of the captured generic NPCs. Whoever the Generic Father is, it will determine the growth rates of Serra's son, but maybe not to the degree that a named parent would have. 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If I'm reading that right, I don't get the draw, exactly? Capturing enemy units, then getting them to marry you, falls somewhere on a spectrum from

  Reveal hidden contents

I can understand that point of view, but I saw it as something completely different. I saw these characters partially as fun for head-canons, but also as defectors and converts, but randomized for individual playthroughs. Fire Emblem often has defectors, traitors, and occasionally captured units join the hero's side, so I don't see why this is too different honestly. I don't think the Unfortunate Implications apply unless you're making the captured one fall in love with the capturer themself, at least in this case. Now, as a general trope, I can see it being uncomfortable, but the point is Fire Emblem has pretty much always worked side-by-side with this idea in some way, shape, or form, so I don't think it's that large of a step. 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

At least from my point of view. Also, Thracia capture functions very differently from Fates capture. You can't capture Generics and make them fight for your side. Instead, you capture them to fleece them of their swag, before releasing them. There are a handful of cases where you want to capture and hold a unit, to secure an item/event/recruitment/paralogue. For instance, maybe an FE7 remake would have you "Capture" and hold on to Legault, in order to recruit him. Or "Capture" Kishuna, in his final appearance, to give a different ending scene if Renault was fielded.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards the Fates style of capturing. I think both could definitely be implemented though - capturing bosses and other named units can net you paralogues and special items and bonus EXP but they won't fight for you, while capturing generics gives players the chance to convert them and have them fight for you, but they'll never be as good as the named and rated units. (And now you can add "Captured Unit Playthrough" to your list of fun challenges.) Add a limit to the "jail" like in Fates, and you've got something interesting. 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

They could also function as a "micro-Convoy", able to carry items and weapons other allies don't have room for.

That's the main reason I don't like it, personally. Modern FE games don't need a mobile convoy, since the Lord/MC is the Convoy. Having a non-combatant Convoy character is annoying and they become something like a load IMO. If enemy reinforcements come, you have to make sure they're not in the way. If they need to talk to a certain person or trade a specific weapon, you need to rearrange your whole offense to do it. If the enemy gets a good attack in but your ally needs a weapon, you have to weigh the risks of attacking vs healing. Those are all fine for units who can attack back, but those who can't...yeah, I'm glad we left those days behind us. 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Maybe give Mark an "Authority" effect where, based on how many Tactician stars they've amassed, they provide combat boosts to all allies within a certain range? Actually, I think this effect happens in the base FE7, but without any field placement factor.

That's fine, but there are already abilities in modern games that do this such as Charm, and Mark doesn't need to be a non-combatant for that to be in place. 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

On the other hand, a combat-ready Mark would likely be much more attractive to new players, and to those whose familiarity with Avatars started with Robin. They'd likely wind up a more impressive unit that way, too, perhaps with more interesting customization options. I just hope they're not centralizing or dominant to the same degree that Robin was.

And us old-school players get a new twist outside of some QoL updates. In terms of plot stuff, I don't think Mark has to worry about that. Mark fades into the background in FE7, and I doubt that will change, even if they are playable. 

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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Niime you surely mean...Niime, Ninian, Neimi, wow Fire Emblem had some weird affixation with the Ni prefix in the GBA days. It's not even all that common a sound for names.

Oops, yes I meant Niime, my bad.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

At the very least, cut out the "level 7 Nils" requirement. That shit made no sense.

Absolutely none

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Thanks again. I do wonder if the count should still be limited, for players who don't care about ranking? Personally, I consider more an element of convenience than anything else, so I don't think it needs to be limited. On the flip side, perfectionists may say "well if I'm being punished for rewinding, then we may as well not have the Turnwheel at all!" Long story short, I can't see a way to satisfy every player.

I would definetly still limit the amount of uses. Alternatevly, there could be a choice between having the Turnwheel or not, so those who want it can have it and those who don`t wanna use it can just not have it. But yes, you can`t please everyone.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This would be an interesting way to do it gameplay-wise, but it's hard to find a narrative-satisfying means to make the other two "sit the battle out". Plus, Bramimond has a story role re: bringing back Ninian (even if it's a dumb plot point, they're probably keeping it). And a younger Yoder can't possibly be on par with a near-thousand-year-old "Living Legend".

Fair point

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Over on another thread, Jotari and I brainstormed a Karel rework. Basically, he'd be a Taliver bandit who hunts Lyn down, both in her Story and later in Eliwood/Hector's Story. He'd function as a recurring boss, kind of like Galzus from Thracia. So conversely, becoming strong enough to defeat him becomes part of Lyn's motivation. In this version, you'd recruit him with Karla, just before the Endgame, and Lyn realizes that her present friends are more important than past scores to settle. Or else you kill Karel, and Lyn feels surprisingly hollow about avenging her parents.

I definitely wouldn't want to cut Erik. I think he's a super-interesting minor antagonist. He works hard for the approval of a father who abandons him at the drop of a lance. I kind of wish Erik were made this game's "fourth Lord" - first joining on a mission to redeem his father from Ephidel, then with the goal of defeating Nergal. He'd have a really interesting "frenemies" dynamic with the other Lords. Then again, this would screw with his function in FE6, so.

I do like the idea of Lyn dealing with prejudice by race and sex, although your suggestion sounds a lot like what she already went through with Marquess... Araphen, was it? Rath's superior back in Lyn's Story.

I just figured "cut Erik since you fight him in FE6 anyway", but you bring up good points.

True, Araphen did dislike Lyn for being part Sacean and a woman, but only raged against her when she mentioned being prideful of her upbringing on the plains. And my idea was that she would face this due to people doubting the claim that she`s Marquess Caelin`s granddaughter  But yes, that would be pretty similar to the Araphen incident I will admit. I just want to have some moments in the story to herself that aren`t confined to Lyn Mode.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I just hope they're not centralizing or dominant to the same degree that Robin was.

That`s my biggest concern with a playable Mark, they would break the game two much like Robin.

6 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

The other change I'd make is to Mark as an Avatar. I don't like your idea, frankly. Yes, I get it, but having a unit on the field that doesn't really participate is nothing more than a drag. Sure, it may make sense from a story or theoretical standpoint, but if the gameplay isn't fun because of that one sticking point, you may need to either change the gameplay or change the character. Just make Mark an aspiring tactician who, after seeing Lyn fight so hard in the prologue chapter, decides to learn to fight too. Mark is a character who has all of these lofty goals as a tactician, but quickly learns that a battlefield isn't like textbooks, that they need to learn how to fight in order to lead better. This inspiration is what will push them to join Lyn on her journey as well as give us a reason Mark is a playable character. From there, giving Mark can take the path of Robin. (Although I am partial to the rom-hack The Lion Throne's Tactician being a Dark Mage.) 

Eh, I would still prefer for Mark to be a non-combatant. We already have several tactician who are combat units (Soren and Robin come to mind), so having who can`t fight is much more unique imo. I get why some people would hate this, but I wanna avoid a Robin situation (avatar being so broken the game becomes a cakewalk) from happening. 

But if Mark has to be able to fight, make them a medicore unit. Strong enough to fight, but not so op they can solo the maps.

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7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

And us old-school players get a new twist outside of some QoL updates. In terms of plot stuff, I don't think Mark has to worry about that. Mark fades into the background in FE7, and I doubt that will change, even if they are playable. 

I meant "dominant and centralizing" re: gameplay, not narrative. Although I hope the latter isn't the case, either.

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

That's the main reason I don't like it, personally. Modern FE games don't need a mobile convoy, since the Lord/MC is the Convoy. Having a non-combatant Convoy character is annoying and they become something like a load IMO. If enemy reinforcements come, you have to make sure they're not in the way. If they need to talk to a certain person or trade a specific weapon, you need to rearrange your whole offense to do it. If the enemy gets a good attack in but your ally needs a weapon, you have to weigh the risks of attacking vs healing. Those are all fine for units who can attack back, but those who can't...yeah, I'm glad we left those days behind us. 

Well your Lord won't be the Convoy, that's Merlinus' job. And for most of the campaign, he's immobile.

TBH I'm attracted to the strategic challenge this would bring. You can't send Mark over to just solo part of the map. Rather, you need to keep them out of enemy ranges. Maybe try a "Rescue-carry" strategy with some of your mounted units. Ironically, I think a "defenseless" Mark could encourage the rest of your army to "work together" to a greater degree, as they try to benefit from - and protect - the tactician.

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards the Fates style of capturing. I think both could definitely be implemented though - capturing bosses and other named units can net you paralogues and special items and bonus EXP but they won't fight for you, while capturing generics gives players the chance to convert them and have them fight for you, but they'll never be as good as the named and rated units. (And now you can add "Captured Unit Playthrough" to your list of fun challenges.) Add a limit to the "jail" like in Fates, and you've got something interesting. 

For ordinary Black Fang soldiers, perhaps? But not for Morphs. As Nergal's creations, they lack any real conscience beyond serving him.

I don't think a "playable Captured unit" element is necessary, but I'll grant that it would allow for cheesy fun "generics only" playthroughs.

7 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I mean "New Units introduced in an FE 6 Remake, whose parents will be old units from FE7." So, say Serra has a son. The son is now playable in FE 6. The son's father could have been anyone from a character from the original game (Hector, Matthew, Erk, etc.) or one of the captured generic NPCs. Whoever the Generic Father is, it will determine the growth rates of Serra's son, but maybe not to the degree that a named parent would have. 

Okay. I don't believe Hector can marry Serra, though? He can marry Lyn, Florina, or Fiora, but I don't think Serra is in that company.

...Anyway, FE6 remske is its own discussion. I'm not opposed to adding a few more FE7 characters and relations, but we should be wary of "cast bloat". FE6 already has the largest cast in GBAFE, so I think any additions should have a concrete narrative purpose beyond "'member FE7?".

4 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

But if Mark has to be able to fight, make them a medicore unit. Strong enough to fight, but not so op they can solo the maps.

Totally agreed. If they get a unique class (or classes), perhaps give it really weak-sauce caps, especially in the offensive areas? Alternatively, just some combination of low bases and meh growths.

4 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

I just figured "cut Erik since you fight him in FE6 anyway", but you bring up good points.

True, Araphen did dislike Lyn for being part Sacean and a woman, but only raged against her when she mentioned being prideful of her upbringing on the plains. And my idea was that she would face this due to people doubting the claim that she`s Marquess Caelin`s granddaughter  But yes, that would be pretty similar to the Araphen incident I will admit. I just want to have some moments in the story to herself that aren`t confined to Lyn Mode.

Thanks! I tend to "stan" Erik to an unhealthy degree.

What you're describing reminds me somewhat of one of the "Elibean Nights" campaigns. Lord Lundgren's illegitimate daughter challenges Lyn for control of Caelin, in part based on her Sacaean heritage. It's up to Kent and the knights to defend the Lady of Caelin.

This kind of subplot could be interesting, to be sure. Maybe have Laus invade Caelin territory with help from local dissidents opposed to Lyn? Not sure how they might keep up this narrative through the rest of the game, though.

4 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

I would definetly still limit the amount of uses. Alternatevly, there could be a choice between having the Turnwheel or not, so those who want it can have it and those who don`t wanna use it can just not have it. But yes, you can`t please everyone.

While I don't think changes like "give the Turnwhewl an ON/OFF switch" or even "limit its uses" are strictly necessary, I'm generally for giving the player more options. I wonder, how would Turnwheel use count be set? Would it increase as the game progresses, or always stay the same? Would you get fewer on Hard Modes, or the same amount? If it's up to player discretion, then what's the "maximum" they could set it at?

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8 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards the Fates style of capturing. I think both could definitely be implemented though - capturing bosses and other named units can net you paralogues and special items and bonus EXP but they won't fight for you, while capturing generics gives players the chance to convert them and have them fight for you, but they'll never be as good as the named and rated units. (And now you can add "Captured Unit Playthrough" to your list of fun challenges.) Add a limit to the "jail" like in Fates, and you've got something interesting. 

I'm not sure a jail really makes sense given that the units are always on the move going from one place to another. You'd need to add some sort of My Castle feature. In addition I didn't like how Fates' capture mechanic was just arbitrarily disabled for certain units for plot based reasons. It just rubbed me the wrong way. I couldn't have even minded much if the units had a defined skill that prevents capturing, but it was just like "Oh you want to to this thing that you can always do, well just no, because this is Benny and we don't want him playable in Birthright". In Thracia you could use the capture command on anyone, even the final boss. Certain units are impossible to capture because they're designed to have too much con or something, but as far as what the game let's you do, it doesn't arbitrarily take away anything from you.

HOWEVER! I have an alternate idea I really like that still uses the capture mechanic. This game revolves around the black fang and mercenaries and stuff. Let's add that as an element to the game. Rather than recruiting generics by...capturing them and then bribing them with food (that's starvation, right?), if you capture and release a certain amount of units from an opposing faction then you can hire them as mercenaries to fight for you. So, for example, capture and release 10 Lausian (Lauation? Lau?) enemies then you garner a good reputation with the common soldiers whom you released and can later hire them as mercenaries. Such a system can be introduced by having Pharae or Ostian mercenaries already available from the start of the game. And if you happen to capture and release a generic boss enemy like Paul and Jasmine they too are available as generic to hire. The number of generics you have available is equal to the number of units you captured and released, but you can only hire them after you've captured and released a certain amount of them and garnered a good reputation amongst that faction. The obvious exception would be Morphs whom you can never recruit.

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5 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

Eh, I would still prefer for Mark to be a non-combatant. We already have several tactician who are combat units (Soren and Robin come to mind), so having who can`t fight is much more unique imo. I get why some people would hate this, but I wanna avoid a Robin situation (avatar being so broken the game becomes a cakewalk) from happening. 

But if Mark has to be able to fight, make them a medicore unit. Strong enough to fight, but not so op they can solo the maps.

And there's the compromise - Mark is a main character but isn't a protagonist (aka one who pushes the plot forward) so he doesn't need to be super strong like Robin. I'm fine with Mark being a standard-strength unit or above average but not S-Tier, like Flayn, Marianne, or Raphael for most in Three Houses - they're good at what they do and/or are flexible units that people want, like, and use, but they also aren't units that players must have all of the time. 

Also, Soren and Robin are popular for multiple reasons, one of them is because they're tacticians in-world who are good units in-game. 

Unique is well and fine, but I'd rather include unique things that don't hamper my roster or party, personally. 

 

48 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I meant "dominant and centralizing" re: gameplay, not narrative. Although I hope the latter isn't the case, either.

As @Metal Flashmentions, it's just a matter of making Mark a mediocre (or as I'd personally prefer, A or B-Tier) unit. 

 

51 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well your Lord won't be the Convoy, that's Merlinus' job. And for most of the campaign, he's immobile.

And I hope a remake changes that, because it was a nightmare on certain levels when he was immobile, and it only got moderately better when he was mobile. But if they keep Merlinus, fine. (Although just making him an Adjutant, and whoever has him as an Adjutant becomes the Convoy could be a nice compromise.) But having Merlinus and Mark as deployable units who can't attack is something I would very much dislike. It's not interesting to me, it's a drag and a waste of a space. 

 

54 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

TBH I'm attracted to the strategic challenge this would bring. You can't send Mark over to just solo part of the map. Rather, you need to keep them out of enemy ranges. Maybe try a "Rescue-carry" strategy with some of your mounted units. Ironically, I think a "defenseless" Mark could encourage the rest of your army to "work together" to a greater degree, as they try to benefit from - and protect - the tactician.

Then every mission becomes something of an escort mission. I experienced part of that with my limited experience with FE 6, and I've played Severa's recruitment mission enough times to say "no thank you" to any more than the occasional mission like that. A whole game where every map can turn into that isn't a game that's going to be fun for me. 

 

56 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

For ordinary Black Fang soldiers, perhaps? But not for Morphs. As Nergal's creations, they lack any real conscience beyond serving him.

Sure. Any unit that isn't a Morph or a named villain, I'm game. 

 

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not sure a jail really makes sense given that the units are always on the move going from one place to another. You'd need to add some sort of My Castle feature.

Jail convoys do exist, and can (and have) been been used in fantasy media before. It's far from impossible or implausible to have a mobile jail cell or two while being on the run. See Amazon's The Wheel of Time, Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive (the first few Kaladin chapters), and others. 

image.jpeg.551029dc5ee72a3c652d430aaededed2.jpeg

Boom, mobile jail cell. 

Also, I do think that a remake of FE 7 will have some sort of barrack or base. It may not be a full fledged hub world, but it'll be more than a menu before a battle. 

 

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

In addition I didn't like how Fates' capture mechanic was just arbitrarily disabled for certain units for plot based reasons. It just rubbed me the wrong way. I couldn't have even minded much if the units had a defined skill that prevents capturing, but it was just like "Oh you want to to this thing that you can always do, well just no, because this is Benny and we don't want him playable in Birthright".

I hated that too, honestly, but since this game doesn't have a split path, I don't think that's too big of a concern. @Shanty Pete's 1st Mate had some ideas about what they wanted to do with captured units. My idea was just a way to expand and diversify the things done with them and the mechanic overall. (Not unlike yours.)

 

32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Rather than recruiting generics by...capturing them and then bribing them with food (that's starvation, right?)

 I mean, you can also just convince them in Fates. It usually takes one conversation unless you're talking to a paralogue boss. Then it may take between 5-7 conversations, but there's no hint of bribing them with food or anything of the sort that I can remember. You can bribe them with gold, convince them, or I think threaten them. Just take out that third option and everything feels more or less on the up and up. ...well, as up and up as capturing enemy soldiers and convincing them to fight for you can be...

 

34 minutes ago, Jotari said:

HOWEVER! I have an alternate idea I really like that still uses the capture mechanic. This game revolves around the black fang and mercenaries and stuff. Let's add that as an element to the game. Rather than recruiting generics by...capturing them and then bribing them with food (that's starvation, right?), if you capture and release a certain amount of units from an opposing faction then you can hire them as mercenaries to fight for you. So, for example, capture and release 10 Lausian (Lauation? Lau?) enemies then you garner a good reputation with the common soldiers whom you released and can later hire them as mercenaries. Such a system can be introduced by having Pharae or Ostian mercenaries already available from the start of the game. And if you happen to capture and release a generic boss enemy like Paul and Jasmine they too are available as generic to hire. The number of generics you have available is equal to the number of units you captured and released, but you can only hire them after you've captured and released a certain amount of them and garnered a good reputation amongst that faction. The obvious exception would be Morphs whom you can never recruit.

Interesting idea! I feel like those captured and recruited units would function less like units and more like battalions though. Maybe it's just the amount in the example, but they feel a little large IMO. I don't dislike the idea, though. 

 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

...Anyway, FE6 remske is its own discussion. I'm not opposed to adding a few more FE7 characters and relations, but we should be wary of "cast bloat". FE6 already has the largest cast in GBAFE, so I think any additions should have a concrete narrative purpose beyond "'member FE7?".

That's a fair point. We'll let that lie then. As a final note though, I personally think that since FE 7 is a prequel and remakes are second chances, the creators of this remake should be wary of how the changes in FE 7's remake would affect potential plot, story, and character changes in FE 6. Remakes aren't made in a vacuum, after all, particularly remakes of prequels. 

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1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Jail convoys do exist, and can (and have) been been used in fantasy media before. It's far from impossible or implausible to have a mobile jail cell or two while being on the run. See Amazon's The Wheel of Time, Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive (the first few Kaladin chapters), and others. 

image.jpeg.551029dc5ee72a3c652d430aaededed2.jpeg

Boom, mobile jail cell. 

Also, I do think that a remake of FE 7 will have some sort of barrack or base. It may not be a full fledged hub world, but it'll be more than a menu before a battle. 

Well sure, mobile prisons exist, but why would Eliwood be lugging prisoners around the entire continent with him instead of handing them over to whatever local authorities are around?

Quote

Interesting idea! I feel like those captured and recruited units would function less like units and more like battalions though. Maybe it's just the amount in the example, but they feel a little large IMO. I don't dislike the idea, though. 

I'm probably not explaining myself there. The number of units you can hire is equal to the number of units you capture and release. In other words, instead of capturing an enemy and nebulously convincing you to join them, you release them in the midst of battle (like in Thracia) and they later willingly offer their services to you as a mercenary. I'm not talking about hiring the entirety of Bern or Arcadia's armed forces. Blazing Blade is the game where battalions make the least amount of sense. But it is a game with pirates and mercenaries, so having generics that will let you hire them makes sense.

Edited by Jotari

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1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Also, Soren and Robin are popular for multiple reasons, one of them is because they're tacticians in-world who are good units in-game. 

TBH Soren isn't that good a unit in either PoR or RD. Like, he's probably the best Mage in either game, but Tellius is notoriously unkind to its magic users. He's not a game-breaker to the same degree Robin is. I'd say his popularity comes moreso from his characterization, backstory, design, and relationship to Ike.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

And I hope a remake changes that, because it was a nightmare on certain levels when he was immobile, and it only got moderately better when he was mobile. But if they keep Merlinus, fine. (Although just making him an Adjutant, and whoever has him as an Adjutant becomes the Convoy could be a nice compromise.) But having Merlinus and Mark as deployable units who can't attack is something I would very much dislike. It's not interesting to me, it's a drag and a waste of a space. 

Well FE7 Merlinus doesn't take up a deployment slot, and in my vision, neither would Mark. They'd be a forced-deploy, but the deployment limit for all chapters would be increased by 1.

I've never liked the "Lord-convoy". It doesn't make narrative sense - why is the prince stuck lugging around all the items and weapons? I'd prefer games either do what Elibe did (dedicated Convoy unit), or what Tellius did (larger inventories, but no mid-map Convoy access). I get that a "Lord-convoy" is convenient for the player, but it feels like it makes inventory management less significant, too.

Here's an idea, though - Satchels. Basically, Mark and/or the Main Lord could carry a Satchel or backpack, with up to 10 weapons/items therein. Other units could access this while adjacent. So before the map starts, you could move the 10 items you foresee having a use for (but that don't fit into anyone's inventory) into the Satchel. So you could access a handful of items without getting back to Merlinus, but not the full Convoy.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Jail convoys do exist, and can (and have) been been used in fantasy media before. It's far from impossible or implausible to have a mobile jail cell or two while being on the run. See Amazon's The Wheel of Time, Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive (the first few Kaladin chapters), and others. 

It's possible, but it seems like a waste of resources for all but the most important prisoners. I could see dedicating a horse and carriage to holding an enemy Princess or General, but a generic mook? Seems unlikely. Just kill them or let them go.

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm probably not explaining myself there. The number of units you can hire is equal to the number of units you capture and release. In other words, instead of capturing an enemy and nebulously convincing you to join them, you release them in the midst of battle (like in Thracia) and they later willingly offer their services to you as a mercenary. I'm not talking about hiring the entirety of Bern or Arcadia's armed forces. Blazing Blade is the game where battalions make the least amount of sense. But it is a game with pirates and mercenaries, so having generics that will let you hire them makes sense.

I certainly like the idea of a "Sellsword" system. I wonder - would you secure their services permanently via a down payment, or would you hire them on a chapter-by-chapter basis? Do their EXP, Combat, and Survival play into the Tactician rankings? And, would they possess any traits giving them an advantage over "canon" playable units? Just some questions to address for such an inclusion. 

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47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well sure, mobile prisons exist, but why would Eliwood be lugging prisoners around the entire continent with him instead of handing them over to whatever local authorities are around?

Introduce the entire concept as Eliwood was about to go to the authorities, but the prisoner offered up their services in exchange instead. That way Eliwood looks both lawful and merciful, a new mechanic is introduced, and we have a justification for future lack of law enforcement in some cases. 

 

47 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm probably not explaining myself there. The number of units you can hire is equal to the number of units you capture and release. In other words, instead of capturing an enemy and nebulously convincing you to join them, you release them in the midst of battle (like in Thracia) and they later willingly offer their services to you as a mercenary. I'm not talking about hiring the entirety of Bern or Arcadia's armed forces. Blazing Blade is the game where battalions make the least amount of sense. But it is a game with pirates and mercenaries, so having generics that will let you hire them makes sense.

No, I got it, but I lost the forest for the trees. 

I'm not sure the benefit of letting an enemy go in the midst of battle would result in any different result though. Why wouldn't they go back to their army if given a chance? Wouldn't capturing them and then convincing them to work for you or with you after the battle simply work better with the logic and mechanic? 

 

15 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

They'd be a forced-deploy, but the deployment limit for all chapters would be increased by 1.

That still doesn't erase the problem of having to defend a unit who can't fight back and whose benefit isn't nearly as good as even a non-combatant Dancer. Raising the deployment doesn't help either, because I'd still want a unit who can attack or heal instead of someone whose value is far less. 

 

15 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Here's an idea, though - Satchels. Basically, Mark and/or the Main Lord could carry a Satchel or backpack, with up to 10 weapons/items therein. Other units could access this while adjacent. So before the map starts, you could move the 10 items you foresee having a use for (but that don't fit into anyone's inventory) into the Satchel. So you could access a handful of items without getting back to Merlinus, but not the full Convoy.

It's not a bad idea, but there are two immediate problems (for me at least): 

1. Why not just have satchels on everyone? Lords, Cavaliers, and Armored units could get the most (particularly armored units in order to make up for their lack of mobility), while other units get an average amount. 

2. A runner - that's what I'll call them right now - would defeat your purpose of having a Tactician on the field, if I understood it originally. Your idea for Mark was for them to function as a Turnwheel and also provide a boost to nearby allies, right? Well, half of Mark's functions would be incredibly sporadic if they spend the map running back and forth to Merlinus for supplies and other things that weren't necessarily planned for or happened to turn up. I do like the idea of a runner, or rather a highly mobile infantry unit, but it still doesn't work for Mark to be that character. 

 

15 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's possible, but it seems like a waste of resources for all but the most important prisoners. I could see dedicating a horse and carriage to holding an enemy Princess or General, but a generic mook? Seems unlikely. Just kill them or let them go.

We can the players decide who is important or who isn't. If they want another Pegasus Knight that happens to have a better Strength stat than Florina even early on, and they know Farina and Fiora aren't showing up for a long while yet, then why not use the resources on a prisoner? Not to mention that I imagine generic prisoners would be pretty easy to convince to join our heroes, so it's not like they're lugging around the same prisoner for the entire game. 

Edited by Use the Falchion

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39 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I certainly like the idea of a "Sellsword" system. I wonder - would you secure their services permanently via a down payment, or would you hire them on a chapter-by-chapter basis? Do their EXP, Combat, and Survival play into the Tactician rankings? And, would they possess any traits giving them an advantage over "canon" playable units? Just some questions to address for such an inclusion. 

Well that's where it kind of doesn't work. The advantage of capturing generics in Fates is that they can have skills on classes you don't have access to or before you have access to them. Aside from being able to play as soldiers, the only advantage generics from Blazing Blade would have is that they can die without you caring as much.

25 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Introduce the entire concept as Eliwood was about to go to the authorities, but the prisoner offered up their services in exchange instead. That way Eliwood looks both lawful and merciful, a new mechanic is introduced, and we have a justification for future lack of law enforcement in some cases. 

Well that just means prisoners are automatically being recruited into your army when being captured to begin with. Which is just the same idea as my mercenary idea meaning there's no need for a prison even to begin with. The whole idea of the prison in Fates is that you can hold prisoners to recruit them later. For Eliwood (and uniquely Eliwood as it's much easier to justify in other games where you're at war, with the possible exception of, somewhat ironically, Thracia) it doesn't make sense to capture someone who is fighting because his lord rebelled in Laus, then cart them to the Dread Isle, then to Bern and then back to the Dread Isle rather than releasing or permanently imprisoning them somewhere.

25 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I'm not sure the benefit of letting an enemy go in the midst of battle would result in any different result though. Why wouldn't they go back to their army if given a chance? Wouldn't capturing them and then convincing them to work for you or with you after the battle simply work better with the logic and mechanic? 

Because they're usually fighting for bad people and Eliwood shows how he's a good person. They're also not fighting directly for the ideals of Eliwood, they're fighting for money with an employer they know is reasonable. I find that much more believable than someone changing their entire world view and defecting to an enemy nation because you gave them some wheat.

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36 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

2. A runner - that's what I'll call them right now - would defeat your purpose of having a Tactician on the field, if I understood it originally. Your idea for Mark was for them to function as a Turnwheel and also provide a boost to nearby allies, right? Well, half of Mark's functions would be incredibly sporadic if they spend the map running back and forth to Merlinus for supplies and other things that weren't necessarily planned for or happened to turn up. I do like the idea of a runner, or rather a highly mobile infantry unit, but it still doesn't work for Mark to be that character. 

I'm... not saying Mark would do any of that. They could, sure, but I usually don't see any need to actually get anything out of the Convoy in most chapters. Merlinus just gets deployed so that enemy drops actually make it to the Convoy.

38 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

1. Why not just have satchels on everyone? Lords, Cavaliers, and Armored units could get the most (particularly armored units in order to make up for their lack of mobility), while other units get an average amount. 

That's a fair point. There's no more reason for "only the Lord/Tactician would get the satchel" than there is for "only the Lord functions as a Convoy". Again, my preferred solution would be either what Elibe already does, or else how Tellius handles it.

41 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

That still doesn't erase the problem of having to defend a unit who can't fight back and whose benefit isn't nearly as good as even a non-combatant Dancer. Raising the deployment doesn't help either, because I'd still want a unit who can attack or heal instead of someone whose value is far less. 

One approach could be "Mark dying isn't a Game Over, they just retreat - but their Tactician and support boosts disappear, and their experience for the map is severely curtailed." That way they're not a liability, only a potential asset (like fielding Merlinus). Basically, give them a functionality that closely mirrors their role in vanilla FE7, while still giving them an on-the-field presence and a more fleshed out character. 

46 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

We can the players decide who is important or who isn't. If they want another Pegasus Knight that happens to have a better Strength stat than Florina even early on, and they know Farina and Fiora aren't showing up for a long while yet, then why not use the resources on a prisoner? Not to mention that I imagine generic prisoners would be pretty easy to convince to join our heroes, so it's not like they're lugging around the same prisoner for the entire game. 

But we, the players, aren't deciding. Eliwood/Hector is deciding to maintain a "mobile jail cell". If the player had a choice between "pay 500 Gold, or no jail cell", then I could see this as the player's choice. But having this small party who isn't technically at war, and is trying to travel lightly, deducate resources to maintaining a "mobile jail cell" (moving past the point that a 'cage on wheels' is, as the kids say, a 'bad look') makes little narrative sense.

49 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I'm not sure the benefit of letting an enemy go in the midst of battle would result in any different result though. Why wouldn't they go back to their army if given a chance? Wouldn't capturing them and then convincing them to work for you or with you after the battle simply work better with the logic and mechanic? 

Well if they're Black Fang, they'll be executed for failing their mission. Seems as good a motive as any not to return to their group. So the options are either A) accept the Fang's judgement, B) beg Sonia for mercy, C) try to hide from the Fang, or D) join the player's army. In other words, A) Death, B) Death with less honor, C) Probable Death, and D) Possible Death, depending on what kind of Tactician Mark is.

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4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Thanks! I tend to "stan" Erik to an unhealthy degree.

What you're describing reminds me somewhat of one of the "Elibean Nights" campaigns. Lord Lundgren's illegitimate daughter challenges Lyn for control of Caelin, in part based on her Sacaean heritage. It's up to Kent and the knights to defend the Lady of Caelin.

This kind of subplot could be interesting, to be sure. Maybe have Laus invade Caelin territory with help from local dissidents opposed to Lyn? Not sure how they might keep up this narrative through the rest of the game, though.

I was trying to not just rip-off that campaign but still have a similar concept. 

That could work.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

While I don't think changes like "give the Turnwhewl an ON/OFF switch" or even "limit its uses" are strictly necessary, I'm generally for giving the player more options. I wonder, how would Turnwheel use count be set? Would it increase as the game progresses, or always stay the same? Would you get fewer on Hard Modes, or the same amount? If it's up to player discretion, then what's the "maximum" they could set it at?

That is a tricky question. My best answer would be to have set limits for each difficulty and adjust their affect on rankings appropriately

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

And there's the compromise - Mark is a main character but isn't a protagonist (aka one who pushes the plot forward) so he doesn't need to be super strong like Robin. I'm fine with Mark being a standard-strength unit or above average but not S-Tier, like Flayn, Marianne, or Raphael for most in Three Houses - they're good at what they do and/or are flexible units that people want, like, and use, but they also aren't units that players must have all of the time. 

Also, Soren and Robin are popular for multiple reasons, one of them is because they're tacticians in-world who are good units in-game. 

Unique is well and fine, but I'd rather include unique things that don't hamper my roster or party, personally. 

I guess that is fair. I still think non-combatant Mark would be best, but to each their own.

Edited by Metal Flash

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Well that just means prisoners are automatically being recruited into your army when being captured to begin with. Which is just the same idea as my mercenary idea meaning there's no need for a prison even to begin with. The whole idea of the prison in Fates is that you can hold prisoners to recruit them later. For Eliwood (and uniquely Eliwood as it's much easier to justify in other games where you're at war, with the possible exception of, somewhat ironically, Thracia) it doesn't make sense to capture someone who is fighting because his lord rebelled in Laus, then cart them to the Dread Isle, then to Bern and then back to the Dread Isle rather than releasing or permanently imprisoning them somewhere.

Solid point about Eliwood. In that case, it really doesn't matter which reasoning we choose, since the "capture" mechanic would just work like a "recruitment" mechanic with flavor text. So we can agree to disagree on the flavor text, but the main mechanic stays. 

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Because they're usually fighting for bad people and Eliwood shows how he's a good person. They're also not fighting directly for the ideals of Eliwood, they're fighting for money with an employer they know is reasonable. I find that much more believable than someone changing their entire world view and defecting to an enemy nation because you gave them some wheat.

That wouldn't fully sync up with other units who defect for those same reasons though. Heath and Vaida aren't getting paid for their defections, so why should generic units get paid? Just saying "yeah, my employer is bad but you let me live so I'm fighting for you" after the fight is fine. But again, this gets into the semantics of flavor text that I don't think we'll come to an agreement on. 

 

48 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Again, my preferred solution would be either what Elibe already does, or else how Tellius handles it.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this. How Elibe handled it was fine, but I'm much more of a fan of how the 3DS and beyond games handle it. It's just one of those areas where I'm able to compromise reasoning for QoL. Heck, they can just have Merlinus say "I'll be on the battlefield, but you won't even notice me!" and make jokes about how he appears and disappears seemingly whenever its needed, and I'd find that an acceptable answer, because it makes things less of a distraction or a burden IMO.

 

51 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

One approach could be "Mark dying isn't a Game Over, they just retreat - but their Tactician and support boosts disappear, and their experience for the map is severely curtailed." That way they're not a liability, only a potential asset (like fielding Merlinus). Basically, give them a functionality that closely mirrors their role in vanilla FE7, while still giving them an on-the-field presence and a more fleshed out character. 

That's certainly the option I've liked the most, but at the end of the day we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this as well, since my problem with what you want of Mark is a fundamental problem. You want Mark to be a non-combatant playable character with stat and support boost value, so they don't end up OP like Robin. I don't think any of that would be valuable or fun, since to me it just adds back in a problem that the Elibe games should take out. Even in Heroes, Kiran went from being a more present version of Mark to a playable character with combat functions in certain modes. Even Dancers nowadays are combat units. I just don't see the appeal in bringing back non-combat units, particularly ones that are forcibly deployed. But that's just me. Others seem to really like the idea, so carry on!

 

56 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

But we, the players, aren't deciding. Eliwood/Hector is deciding to maintain a "mobile jail cell". If the player had a choice between "pay 500 Gold, or no jail cell", then I could see this as the player's choice. But having this small party who isn't technically at war, and is trying to travel lightly, deducate resources to maintaining a "mobile jail cell" (moving past the point that a 'cage on wheels' is, as the kids say, a 'bad look') makes little narrative sense.

Solid points. In that case, your option of "500 gold or no jail cell" could be the way to go. Or simply have the capture mechanic work as a post-level recruit mechanic. (Which it pretty much does in Fates. You just capture the generic unit, usually talk to them once or twice, and they'll join your side. No need to bribe or threaten.) 

 

57 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well if they're Black Fang, they'll be executed for failing their mission. Seems as good a motive as any not to return to their group. So the options are either A) accept the Fang's judgement, B) beg Sonia for mercy, C) try to hide from the Fang, or D) join the player's army. In other words, A) Death, B) Death with less honor, C) Probable Death, and D) Possible Death, depending on what kind of Tactician Mark is.

Exactly, so if it doesn't matter if capturing them and letting them go before or after the mission matters, then there's no reason to not wait until after the mission to recruit them. 

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12 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this. How Elibe handled it was fine, but I'm much more of a fan of how the 3DS and beyond games handle it. It's just one of those areas where I'm able to compromise reasoning for QoL. Heck, they can just have Merlinus say "I'll be on the battlefield, but you won't even notice me!" and make jokes about how he appears and disappears seemingly whenever its needed, and I'd find that an acceptable answer, because it makes things less of a distraction or a burden IMO.

I can agree to disagree. I think the "Lord-Convoy" is less a QoL feature, as it is a deliberate change that (somewhat) undermines inventory management. Like, suppose all your units could access the Convoy at any moment. Far more convenient, yes, but it means preparing your team beforehand hardly matters.

15 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

That's certainly the option I've liked the most, but at the end of the day we'll probably have to agree to disagree on this as well, since my problem with what you want of Mark is a fundamental problem. You want Mark to be a non-combatant playable character with stat and support boost value, so they don't end up OP like Robin. I don't think any of that would be valuable or fun, since to me it just adds back in a problem that the Elibe games should take out. Even in Heroes, Kiran went from being a more present version of Mark to a playable character with combat functions in certain modes. Even Dancers nowadays are combat units. I just don't see the appeal in bringing back non-combat units, particularly ones that are forcibly deployed. But that's just me. Others seem to really like the idea, so carry on!

A reasonable perspective, for sure. For my part, I exist in the "not every unit needs to be a combat unit". This applies even to recent games - like in Three Houses, you're likely to have a Bishop, a Dancer, and a Stridebot. Possibly a Rally-bot and an Impregnable Wall or Reposition user, too. These units can fight, sure, but their primary purpose is providing assistance to allies who are better at it. "Pure support" units are, I think, just an extension of this paradigm. They shine brightest in their ability to bring out the best from their allies.

25 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Solid points. In that case, your option of "500 gold or no jail cell" could be the way to go. Or simply have the capture mechanic work as a post-level recruit mechanic. (Which it pretty much does in Fates. You just capture the generic unit, usually talk to them once or twice, and they'll join your side. No need to bribe or threaten.) 

"Recruited right after the battle" works for me. I wouldn't include Morphs or bosses in the bunch, and there might need to be a cap on how many can be acquired per chapter, but I think this could work.

1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

I was trying to not just rip-off that campaign but still have a similar concept. 

That could work.

Didn't mean to imply your suggestion was any sort of a "rip-off". And it could be nice to get more Caelinternal politics, especially for a canton that ceases existing by the time of FE6.

1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

That is a tricky question. My best answer would be to have set limits for each difficulty and adjust their affect on rankings appropriately

Probably the best way to do it. Maybe include a fixed number of uses per chapter on each "first playthrough", then let the player adjust it to their liking on subsequent runs.

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well if they're Black Fang, they'll be executed for failing their mission. Seems as good a motive as any not to return to their group. So the options are either A) accept the Fang's judgement, B) beg Sonia for mercy, C) try to hide from the Fang, or D) join the player's army. In other words, A) Death, B) Death with less honor, C) Probable Death, and D) Possible Death, depending on what kind of Tactician Mark is.

If we assume the capture mechanic is only introduced after Lyn mode (because she fights almost a different group every chapter and ends up legally in control of the last enemies any way and because it'd be weird for generics to stick around after the time skip), then the enemies we fight throughout the game are.

*Black Fan Assassins (who would join for the above reasons)

*Bandits (who live a shitty life in general and are doing what they're doing out of desperation)

*Laus soldiers (who have just been abandoned by their lord that openly rebelled and made them traitors in the process, so they have ample reason to join Eliwood and Hector to prove their loyalty to Lycia)

*Fargus's pirates (who are on good terms with Eliwood any way and at least one random pirate does, in fact, voluntarily elect to join Eliwood, that others among them would do so for pay isn't unbelievable. Capture could also be an interesting addition to the Bandon chapter in general).

*Literal mercenaries (specifically Euban's mercenaries who was working for Darin, I'm sure many of them thought attacking a Pherae castle on behalf of a dead contractor was, while admirably loyal, was colossally stupid and with Euban dead they'd be outright looking for work).

*Morphs (unrecruitable)

*Bern soldiers (all the enemies in Vaida's chapter are named Black Fang, but surely some of the soldiers with her much also logically be from Bern)

*Ghostly Guardians (unrecuitable, and conspicuously missing from Binding Blade, I can only assume Henning solo'd them all)

So it doesn't take much to imagine scenarios in which enemy generics would join Eliwood. Hell you do canonically get units from pretty much all these groups. Factions that are allied with the player (Pherae, Ostia, Caelin, Acradia) could also provide optional fighters after certain points in the game. Like any of the surviving green units in the Pherae defense chapter.

Though the system still kind of needs incentive to exist beyond the novelty of it. I'm sure the whole reason generic recruitment exists in Fates spawned from the desire to have Hoshidon units in Conquest and vice versa. I can think of one potential incentive, ripping off from the Valkyrie Profile series. In that series (or at least the second game, the only one I've played), you can recruit sort of generic units (they're not generic per se, they all have personaility and history and stuff, but they're irrelevant to the plot and semi randomized in where you acquire them). After you level them up a few levels you have the ability to dismiss them to get a stat booster. So you essentially train them to convert them into a resource, unless you like them in which case you can keep them. Fire Emblem could do something similar (only less literal than it is in Valkyrie Profile), with the ability to dismiss generic units upon which they give you an gift when they leave, the worth of which depending either on how many chapters you fielded them or how much exp you gave them.

Edited by Jotari

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