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Improving underwhelming classes


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3 hours ago, DoomRPG said:


Going to focus on your dodgetanking comment.

Unlike Fates, which requires you to go above and beyond to drop enemy hit rates to sub 30%. And then not even be reliable anyway due to its hybrid RNG. 3H uses 2-RN and the good chunk of maps have some level of terrain to offer evade boosts.

In other words. You don't need a full dodge tank build to drop enemy hit rates to zero. You can have them reach 20% then have Sol at 30% and ta-dah your odds of death are so astronomically low. The game's RNG generator can't create a seed where your unit dies. Especially if they survive 2-3 rounds of combat. They may get hit. But Sol will activate to put them out of a danger zone sooner rather than later.

Of course. Unless you set Sol's activation rate to very low extents. Like Dex/2% (Which is much worse then Dex%)

If your asking for 1 sol chance. Then yes. I agree. It is not consistent unless your activation rate is approaching 95+% in single RN. Or 85% chance in double RN.

But that's not what Sol builds are about. Sol builds in Fates, and more importantly. In theoretical 3H. Are about giving yourself as many re-rolls until Sol becomes guaranteed. Creating a cycle where Sol "refills" your re-rolls for proccing Sol. Creating a self-perpeuting loop where your units cannot die before the enemies.

Sure. They'll rarely come out on full HP. But if the enemy dies first. That's irrelevant.

Anyhow this has gone off topic long enough. Let's move back  to other points. I'm surprised you haven't railed against my suggestion for HK and MS for example.

Sounds like you keep ignoring that one Sol activation doesn't just magically make all the damage you've taken go away. If my unit can't take many hits, I'd consider it wise to not rely on Sol, whereas if it's someone who CAN, they'd be fine even without it. Also, if you have a dodgetank, then Sol is pretty much just for show because they aren't getting hit by most attacks, ergo, it's a win-more skill. What's more, gambits are a thing and do not allow counters, meaning that if you don't have high charm, you'll likely get rattled, which makes your combat performance go way down. As a result, I'd believe that Sol would not be very useful in 3H, considering that some of the hardest hitting characters in the game have a crest that drains a portion of the damage dealt, yet that isn't anywhere near overpowered.

Regarding your ideas... your idea for Holy Knight sounds way too situational to be useful, whereas Mortal Savant would still suffer from being a Master of None.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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11 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

So some new changes I'd also like to do.
1. Give Mortal Savant fiendish blow as a class skill in place of Black Tomefaire. And add range +1 black spells.
Reasoning: Fiendish blow is an extra +1 damage over all and it works for dark mages too (if you want Lysithea to be a katana weeb.) It also saves a skill slot if you have FB already. Or allows more dedicated swordies that want a dash of magic to get it without going through mage first. That +1 range is especially nice for allowing those swordies to poke with their more limited list, especially since they mostly get magic to blast armored units that have a bajillion defense anyways. (Felix comes to mind as this would give him 4 range Thorons. Which isn't too bad in my opinion.)
Its technically a nerf if you want to stack tomefaire and FB. But DK/HK is already better for that as is, Gremory also does that better for the most part.

This just makes Mortal Savant worse. If I'm putting a unit into Mortal Savant, chances are they've already mastered Mage. So losing Black Tomefaire means 5 less damage per hit.

Increased spell range, I kind of like. I had thought to add a skill like "Stealth" or "Avoid +10". Something to add flavor to the class. But more range would be stronger gameplay-wise.

11 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

2. Speaking of Holy Knights. They need a big buff so here's what I had in mind.
Replace Terrain Resistance with a new skill I'll be naming "Protection from Evil."
Its description will be
"More likely to be targeted by dark spells. If so. Negate all damage and then buff all stats by +12 for a turn."

Its actual effect is a mix of the taunt/provoke skill (is that a thing in 3H? I don't remember it being one.) that's exclusive to Dark mages. As well as a doubled transmute.
I'd still call transmute better since its more practical and easier to get. (Mastering Dark Flier is probably easier for more character than getting into Holy Knight.)

What if we just made it so Terrain Resistance also nullifies extra damage from attacks (i.e. Poison Strike), as well as enemy debuffs? Dark Mages are known for their debuffing, so this would give Holy Knight a niche, while also slightly improving Paladin and Enlightened One. Otherwise, my best fix is "make offensive white magic better".

11 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

As for my thoughts on the Sol stuff.

50% healing is generally quite bad in the high damage 3H environment. I'd personally raise everything to 70% (100% on Crest procs.) and buff Nos and Draining blow slightly. Sol itself seems decent to me actually. Especially since its easier to get axes/swords that hit hard compared to Nos (lul) and DB (also lul.)
The former just sucks on everyone. The latter has one good user in Balthus. (Who has the HP, Defense, and Strength, to make self-healing through damage desirable. And to make it even better. He even has a suitable crest!)

70% seems solid, if a bit tougher to calculate. Nosferatu should also have a lower Weight, IMO.

Is Draining Blow good on Balthus, though? His personal skill only activates below half-health, so there are at least some cases where you'd rather his HP stay on the low side.

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1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is Draining Blow good on Balthus, though? His personal skill only activates below half-health, so there are at least some cases where you'd rather his HP stay on the low side.

Yes Balthus's skill only activates below half health. And its arguably (and in my opinion) the best non XP boosting skill in the game. So you want it active as much as possible!

The reason DB is good is that it allows health management while retaining offensive ability. (So you don't need to lose action economy by using a healing item.)

If you miscalculate and it turns out Balthus dies from that physical group you sent him to tango with. You can use draining blow to keep his HP high while still doing damage. (Helped especially by the +6 strength FROM the skill. And potentially the stacking effect of crest. Albeit, no strategy should be built on that, its nice when it happens.) His HP will be dropped below half and the +6 defense should keep him safe until the next draining blow. Or if the enemy herd is sufficiently thinned. Just brave attack for the finish.

Its situational yes. But most combat arts are. Especially brawling ones (really only One-two punch and FIF from grappler are the only ones I'd call reliably good/great.) But the fact Balthus can do it at all puts him above other users who have no middle ground between "zero damage" and "Mortal peril."

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I've always felt Draining Blow was pretty worthless. You have to actively give up damage to use it, most of the time, since you're only getting one hit in. It's particularly poor on Balthus because he often likes to remain at lower HP anyway, making the move even more situational. Combat art slots are valuable; a repositional, Curved Shot, high-power options (Tempest Lance), high-hit options (Smash), weakness-hitters (Knightkneeler, Helm Splitter, Bane of Monsters) are all competing for space.

Nosferatu at least doesn't take up a combat art slot, and all my mages have it, so I sometimes use it when it kills an armour knight and my mage is injured. We're talking once or twice a playthrough, probably, but hey.

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Remove Noble/Commoner/Lord/Thief; they exist for story reasons or are otherwise irrelevant. Judith can keep hers. Lvl 1 classes are now the former lvl 5 classes and separate classes for Axe/Bow/Fist are created instead of one. Phys classes get +2 STR, Mag classes get +2 Mag.

All 4 mov classes get bumped up to 5 mov; lvl 20 classes and above that don´t have 6 mov get bumped up to 6 mov. The same goes for special classes. 

Armored classes get Wary Fighter, innately.

For the other lvl 10 classes: no relevant growths under 5%. Physical classes without STR growth receive +10%; Priest gets +10% Mag. Physical classes that don´t get a stat boost in HP/STR/SKL/SPD/DEF. Similar things go for Magic classes.

Remove Hero/Assassin. No reason to have weapon hybrids when the differnce between mono classes are minimal. All stealable loot becomes regular drops. Mono weapon classes recieve innate crit, SM receives dodge, Sniper gets hit, War gest extra crit, so does Grappler.

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21 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I believe the reason why IS is very anxious about having Sol skills return was how in Fates. Sol Master Ninjas were one of the the best options for trivializing the game. Since doubling everything+Guard Gauge. Meant even low skill SMN (Sol Master Ninjas) would basically never die. They'd refresh their own HP in time for the next hit between dodges/guard gauges pretty much 100% of the time.

I think it has less to do with the fact that Sol master Ninjas where insanely powerful and more likely that they didn't even get the soul of the Hero class when they added it to 3 houses. It feels like such an afterthought of a class.

 

Sol tanking is absolutely not very viable in a lot of situations, even at the best of times simply because it's RNG based and very niche unless it comes without competition (Fates jumps to mind). As a combat art it probably has a little more versatility, but as a skill it struggles to really do much unless there's a guarantee it'll come out. 

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In response to one suggestion mentioned twice above: I'd really not be a fan of the proposal to give all armored classes +2 movement or having some sort of floor of 6 move.  The fun of Fire Emblem games is strategic diversity.  You can "balance" all the classes if you make them all identical, but that isn't actually fun or interesting.  The most core strategic identity that Fortress Knights & friends have is the "slow, but powerful" niche.  If they're not good enough (and I agree they're not good), then make them more powerful, don't take away the very aspect that makes them Fortress Knights to begin with.

As a side effect, don't forget that since FE is symmetrical, changes will affect enemy movement ranges too.  Giving the bad guy team a lumbering force that you can play range games with but is scary if they get the drop on you is, IMO, fun. On the other hand, stuff like that one map in FE12 where 10 movement range Dragons fly at you from off screen out of fog of war is not great.  To make a more comprehensible battlefield, having some low move units - even if solely for the enemy team - is handy.  Basically, even if we did decide that armored units simply require more movement - I'd probably advocate a trick like how 99% of enemy archers don't have Close Counter equipped.  Make it so that there's some Armored Stride style class mastery or Armor Rank skill that PC armors can equip but that enemy armors don't.

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2 hours ago, SnowFire said:

In response to one suggestion mentioned twice above: I'd really not be a fan of the proposal to give all armored classes +2 movement or having some sort of floor of 6 move.  The fun of Fire Emblem games is strategic diversity.  You can "balance" all the classes if you make them all identical, but that isn't actually fun or interesting.  The most core strategic identity that Fortress Knights & friends have is the "slow, but powerful" niche.  If they're not good enough (and I agree they're not good), then make them more powerful, don't take away the very aspect that makes them Fortress Knights to begin with.

As a side effect, don't forget that since FE is symmetrical, changes will affect enemy movement ranges too.  Giving the bad guy team a lumbering force that you can play range games with but is scary if they get the drop on you is, IMO, fun. On the other hand, stuff like that one map in FE12 where 10 movement range Dragons fly at you from off screen out of fog of war is not great.  To make a more comprehensible battlefield, having some low move units - even if solely for the enemy team - is handy.  Basically, even if we did decide that armored units simply require more movement - I'd probably advocate a trick like how 99% of enemy archers don't have Close Counter equipped.  Make it so that there's some Armored Stride style class mastery or Armor Rank skill that PC armors can equip but that enemy armors don't.

It's kind of justifiable to have an slow moving damage sponge in an strategy game like FE. Since people need an turn 1 vanguard on the off chance that an level starts them surrounded by enemies and it encourages kiting in 3H. And that higher movement range doesn't really matter much if 95% of the opposition is set to advance towards you.

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2 hours ago, SnowFire said:

In response to one suggestion mentioned twice above: I'd really not be a fan of the proposal to give all armored classes +2 movement or having some sort of floor of 6 move.  The fun of Fire Emblem games is strategic diversity.  You can "balance" all the classes if you make them all identical, but that isn't actually fun or interesting.  The most core strategic identity that Fortress Knights & friends have is the "slow, but powerful" niche.  If they're not good enough (and I agree they're not good), then make them more powerful, don't take away the very aspect that makes them Fortress Knights to begin with.

Yeah, agreed. That just takes one of the defining traits of Armored classes and cuts it. Fates demonstrated that Armored classes could be good while still keeping low speed and movement. Even in 3H Maddening, Fortress Knight retains a niche as the best class for defensive tanking. If you want to make Armors better, build upon that niche with Wary Fighter, or with a resistance to external damage and debuffs.

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, agreed. That just takes one of the defining traits of Armored classes and cuts it. Fates demonstrated that Armored classes could be good while still keeping low speed and movement. Even in 3H Maddening, Fortress Knight retains a niche as the best class for defensive tanking. If you want to make Armors better, build upon that niche with Wary Fighter, or with a resistance to external damage and debuffs.

I think that would be good, make it where FKs don't take damage from indirect hits like AoEs on gambles and Meteor or give them status resistance where debuffs and things like poison strike are halved. While it would be hard to implement I would like to see a skill on them that increase the movement cost of spaces next to them for enemies so it's harder for them to be ignored.

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7 hours ago, SnowFire said:

In response to one suggestion mentioned twice above: I'd really not be a fan of the proposal to give all armored classes +2 movement or having some sort of floor of 6 move.  The fun of Fire Emblem games is strategic diversity.  You can "balance" all the classes if you make them all identical, but that isn't actually fun or interesting.  The most core strategic identity that Fortress Knights & friends have is the "slow, but powerful" niche.  If they're not good enough (and I agree they're not good), then make them more powerful, don't take away the very aspect that makes them Fortress Knights to begin with.

As a side effect, don't forget that since FE is symmetrical, changes will affect enemy movement ranges too.  Giving the bad guy team a lumbering force that you can play range games with but is scary if they get the drop on you is, IMO, fun. On the other hand, stuff like that one map in FE12 where 10 movement range Dragons fly at you from off screen out of fog of war is not great.  To make a more comprehensible battlefield, having some low move units - even if solely for the enemy team - is handy.  Basically, even if we did decide that armored units simply require more movement - I'd probably advocate a trick like how 99% of enemy archers don't have Close Counter equipped.  Make it so that there's some Armored Stride style class mastery or Armor Rank skill that PC armors can equip but that enemy armors don't.

The last bit seems like a fine compromise if as a baseline, enemy AK, though I'm pretty sure you could get seperate movements by adding +1-2 movement to a character's personal stats. (Though that would very easily break them and make them OP if they can reclass out of AK.)

As for slow, but powerful, niche. That's already present with Fighters. And they tend to not be amazing even when they are allowed to be fast. (Which is never surefire.) Knights have four defining characteristics. High DEF. Weaknesses to Magic, anti-armor weapons, and the fact they will never see combat the instant there is one good cavalier. (Okay last bit is an exaggeration unless your doing FE4/GBA/FE9. In which case. Its unironically true!)

 

5 hours ago, Armchair General said:

It's kind of justifiable to have an slow moving damage sponge in an strategy game like FE. Since people need an turn 1 vanguard on the off chance that an level starts them surrounded by enemies and it encourages kiting in 3H. And that higher movement range doesn't really matter much if 95% of the opposition is set to advance towards you.

I'd like to request what FE maps your specifically referring to. In my experience even if there are enemies present on turn 1 Player Phase. They are always too far away for 4 movement knights to reach them. Admittedly I could just not be remembering specific examples.

As for last comment. Yeah ending turn with AK on one chokepoint until the enemy is dead is a way to win. Assuming that there are no enemies with magic, or hammers. (Admittedly IS hates giving enemy units variety.) but its also not something you can do on every map. 1 tile choke points exist, and AK/FK are effective at holding them. But they aren't omnipresent and if an AK is underleveled. Their DEF can very well not be high enough.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, agreed. That just takes one of the defining traits of Armored classes and cuts it. Fates demonstrated that Armored classes could be good while still keeping low speed and movement. Even in 3H Maddening, Fortress Knight retains a niche as the best class for defensive tanking. If you want to make Armors better, build upon that niche with Wary Fighter, or with a resistance to external damage and debuffs.

Effie is a great unit whose good at any class. AK is still one of her worst because of its four weaknesses (Low move. No RES. No Speed Anti-Armor weapons.) being far too many for its strengths.
Admittedly. Benny isn't too bad as an armor knight. And he's an example of how Fates mechanics give AK a niche that allows them to be useful on certain maps. And he isn't as effective on other classes due to his growth spread not being as obscene as Effie. (Admittedly Rev base stats cripples the latter. but Rev does that to a bunch of units.)

2 hours ago, ciphertul said:

I think that would be good, make it where FKs don't take damage from indirect hits like AoEs on gambles and Meteor or give them status resistance where debuffs and things like poison strike are halved. While it would be hard to implement I would like to see a skill on them that increase the movement cost of spaces next to them for enemies so it's harder for them to be ignored.

I actually really like these ideas! If they, and others were implemented. I would easily be happier with armor knights. Give them strengths! Unique strengths, that let them compete with the merits of other classes! Cavaliers and Wyverns are almost always AK but with speed and tons of move. Yet if AK had a unique advantage of handling terrain damage better, a resistance or immunity to AOEs. Same thing with debuffs...

If +2 movement isn't given to allow armor knights to reach the battlefield on parity with other infantry. Then allow them to have unique strengths that allow them to survive where no other unit can.

Y'know. Like there giant bloody meatshields covered head to toe in armor that's layered until it has to weigh a bajillion effin pounds!

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I definitely agree that armours should remain low move, but strong otherwise. It's a difficult balance to strike, though. One thing I would like to see is armours get a "save"/"cover" skill where they can take hits for adjacent allies, which would allow them to pair with low-durability units to keep them safe. Being able to use durability proactively is nice, because otherwise your durability is only as useful as much as the enemies target you. And if you're going to ask a low-move unit to be the only unit in range for enemies (currently the only way to get enemies to reliably target them), that's very tactically limiting.

3 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

Effie is a great unit whose good at any class. AK is still one of her worst because of its four weaknesses (Low move. No RES. No Speed Anti-Armor weapons.) being far too many for its strengths.

What class do you normally put Effie in? Her own class set includes Troubadour, which is far worse for her. The only class I can see which is better and is even remotely accessible is Cavalier (via Silas marriage), which admittedly would improve her, although it really only deals with two of those four weaknesses (the move and to some extent the speed... though that's only +2), as cavalier isn't significantly better at taking magic and anti-cavalry weakness is worse than anti-armour weakness in that game (due to the kitsune map alone).

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Correction: those FE12 dragons flying at you from out of the desert have 12 Movement, not 10 Movement.  The SF Times regrets the error.

3 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

As for slow, but powerful, niche. That's already present with Fighters. And they tend to not be amazing even when they are allowed to be fast. (Which is never surefire.) Knights have four defining characteristics. High DEF. Weaknesses to Magic, anti-armor weapons, and the fact they will never see combat the instant there is one good cavalier. (Okay last bit is an exaggeration unless your doing FE4/GBA/FE9. In which case. Its unironically true!)

Well, that's kinda the point - 3H already has infantry Brigands/Warriors, so there needs to be appreciable difference in a new class like Armored Knight / Fortress Knight.  If they hypothetically both had their movement buffed to 6, then the distinction starts becoming too subtle.  Having -1 Move and even worse Speed but theoretically better Defense is what 3H picked, but the balance is still off.  I think the fix would be things like 3H giving Knights better Attack so that they really have a notable advantage in "fair" combat.

Also, I agree that knights have major issues in Path of Radiance, and Gilliam is a bad unit in FE8 (but that may say more about Gilliam than the class in general), but I wouldn't write off their use in FE6/7 entirely.  Oswin and Bors are absolutely valid units whose defense edge is notable enough that they are especially solid at holding off reinforcing hordes or baiting problematic promoted units in the early game, and FE6/7 lategame doesn't have that many speedy enemies to punish their meh speed.  The main issue with Oswin at least is just that if you're playing for ranking, he's not always able to catch up if you're trying to keep turncount low for Tactics rank...  but...  even then, there are tricks, like giving him a Paladin taxi worst comes to worst.  There's certainly worse classes in FE6/7 like Sniper.  (I can't speak to FE4.)

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18 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

Also, I agree that knights have major issues in Path of Radiance, and Gilliam is a bad unit in FE8 (but that may say more about Gilliam than the class in general), but I wouldn't write off their use in FE6/7 entirely.  Oswin and Bors are absolutely valid units whose defense edge is notable enough that they are especially solid at holding off reinforcing hordes or baiting problematic promoted units in the early game, and FE6/7 lategame doesn't have that many speedy enemies to punish their meh speed.  The main issue with Oswin at least is just that if you're playing for ranking, he's not always able to catch up if you're trying to keep turncount low for Tactics rank...  but...  even then, there are tricks, like giving him a Paladin taxi worst comes to worst.  There's certainly worse classes in FE6/7 like Sniper.  (I can't speak to FE4.)

Let's just say with FE4 often being called Horse Emblem.... yeah. Binding Blade is almost as bad for knights; it has big maps (by the standards of GBA FE, at least), which automatically shaft armored units, and the armored units in said game are... not great, to say the least. Hell, I'd say Sniper is a better class in Binding Blade simply because wyvern riders are a serious pain in the ass.

 

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19 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

I'd like to request what FE maps your specifically referring to.

It's most of the dungeon skirmishes in SoV, the Imperial Palace in Verdant Wind, the market district in Enbarr, "Sword & Shield of Seiros," probably the final pre-timeskip level in 3H, the boat maps in SoV. There's also the final battle against Iago in Birthright, Cheve in Conquest. I'm kind of drawing an blank on everything else, but it feels like there's probably more shit that I'm forgetting.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Regarding the Armor Knight movement discussion... I'd rather have them with more movement than what 3H did.
They're supposed to be slow, prone to getting doubled units that wear massive armor and look the part but they get Weight reducing skills? Huh?

AKs with standard infantry movement points would still get bodied by most terrain and keep several of their defining points such as low speed, high defense, and low resistance. What they would gain however, is the ability to do their intended role of being a defensive frontliner unit.

Let's be real here, when you use AKs, they're not going to be able to catch up with the rest of the army, let alone stay on the front. That all but defeats their purpose.


As for Holy Knights... The problem with them is that they don't have a niche. Anyone that gets Physic is still going to do better in their black magic equivalent classes. Need more magic uses? Gremory. Need a horse? Dark Knight.
Offensively, pure white magic users will never catch up and they shouldn't tbh. That's not what they're supposed to do.

White magic is all about support and healing, so what's a good way to play off that? Have them focus on that instead of the raw output of black magic. Extra range. White Magic range + are skills that are already in the game, so it's simple to mod them in.

Basically, the idea is to maintain them off the frontlines while also having them be able to chip in offensively. Nosferatu just isn't doing anything, even at 2-range, and the other white offensive skills are straight up outclassed, but the extra range would give people a reason to actually invest in the white magic classes and in Faith past C for Physic.

A potential Class Skill list for Holy Knight would be something like: Canto, White Tomefaire, White Magic Range +1, White Magic Heal +10. (I know 3H classes only have 3 class skills, just have one be a mastery skill carried over from Bishop lol)

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17 hours ago, Volt-Ikazuchi said:

A potential Class Skill list for Holy Knight would be something like: Canto, White Tomefaire, White Magic Range +1, White Magic Heal +10. (I know 3H classes only have 3 class skills, just have one be a mastery skill carried over from Bishop lol)

With so little offensive white magic, Heal +10 and White Tombefaire is clashing a little; maybe just combine them into Heal+20, in line with class progression?

And for a niche, it would be cool if they got Rally Spectrum as the third skill, after Canto

 

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22 hours ago, mikalj said:

With so little offensive white magic, Heal +10 and White Tombefaire is clashing a little; maybe just combine them into Heal+20, in line with class progression?

And for a niche, it would be cool if they got Rally Spectrum as the third skill, after Canto

 

I'm not sure Heal +20 is even in the game, and frankly, it's kind of overkill. Units will have enough magic by that point to almost heal a unit up to full from below 50%.

Also, pretty sure Rally Spectrum isn't in the game.

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1 hour ago, Volt-Ikazuchi said:

I'm not sure Heal +20 is even in the game, and frankly, it's kind of overkill. Units will have enough magic by that point to almost heal a unit up to full from below 50%.

Also, pretty sure Rally Spectrum isn't in the game.

I do not believe either are in the game, but why should that matter if we are considering how to fix the class?

I appreciate that +20 is probably overkill, but it would allow for a unit that is going 'against type' to be useful in the class - you could maybe use Yuri this way on Hard mode if you were having fun.

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2 hours ago, Volt-Ikazuchi said:

I'm not sure Heal +20 is even in the game, and frankly, it's kind of overkill. Units will have enough magic by that point to almost heal a unit up to full from below 50%.

With what? Because without a healing staff equipped or being a Bishop, Physic isn't healing significantly more than 20 HP even lategame.

On 2/6/2022 at 12:30 PM, mikalj said:

And for a niche, it would be cool if they got Rally Spectrum as the third skill, after Canto

Unfortunately, Rally Spectrum wouldn't be that useful if it was in the game, because rallies have taken a hard fall in terms of usefulness due to them being single-target.

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I don’t think Heal +20 would even be necessary because Heal +10 is plenty good here. IS must have thought that maybe they give Holy Knight a try since they haven’t done pure offensive faith magic wielding classes before. Not counting Bishops from the earlier games of course. The problems are already stated so no need to be a broken record.

Partly the issue is that there isn’t enough offensive faith magic to consider white tomefaire to be viable. Rally Spectrum would be a shadow of it’s former glory but a super buffed unit sounds cool nonetheless. I think the game is built at least well enough that you could get away with rallying just one unit. Awakening was pretty generous (perhaps I’m understating it) with how rallies function.

I have used Fortress Knights before on maddening. If there is one thing I can give them credit for, it’s being able to shave off assaults from brawlers, thieves, cavaliers and to an extent pegasus knights. 27 defense at level 20 assuming you’re making someone a FK i.e. Hilda can serve a purpose. Stride/Warp/Rescue/Foul Play are some movement tech that you can use to your advantage. Plus on Azure Moon, you give them the Duscar Heavy Soldiers battalion for a whooping +10 protection and you pretty much have a very sturdy physical wall. Hit +20 obviously helps if you need them to retaliate.

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On 2/6/2022 at 1:30 PM, mikalj said:

And for a niche, it would be cool if they got Rally Spectrum as the third skill, after Canto

Rally Spectrum would be a neat tech, but would make very little thematic sense. Rallies are associated with training Authority, so why does this "Faith and Riding" class get one? Rally Spectrum would've been great if we got a Rally-oriented class, though.

On 2/5/2022 at 7:43 PM, Volt-Ikazuchi said:

A potential Class Skill list for Holy Knight would be something like: Canto, White Tomefaire, White Magic Range +1, White Magic Heal +10. (I know 3H classes only have 3 class skills, just have one be a mastery skill carried over from Bishop lol)

An equippable "Healing +10" from mastering Bishop would be really cool. Probably better than the Renewal skill that currently comes from the class. Could let you bring more effective healing into offense-oriented magic classes.

On 1/21/2022 at 10:46 PM, SnowFire said:

Also, I agree that knights have major issues in Path of Radiance, and Gilliam is a bad unit in FE8 (but that may say more about Gilliam than the class in general), but I wouldn't write off their use in FE6/7 entirely.  Oswin and Bors are absolutely valid units whose defense edge is notable enough that they are especially solid at holding off reinforcing hordes or baiting problematic promoted units in the early game, and FE6/7 lategame doesn't have that many speedy enemies to punish their meh speed.  The main issue with Oswin at least is just that if you're playing for ranking, he's not always able to catch up if you're trying to keep turncount low for Tactics rank...  but...  even then, there are tricks, like giving him a Paladin taxi worst comes to worst.  There's certainly worse classes in FE6/7 like Sniper.  (I can't speak to FE4.)

Re: FE4, Arden is a complete joke unit, often considered the worst in the game. It's possible to train him up, but it's a serious chore, and even then he doesn't end up particularly good. In Gen 2, Hannibal has decent stats, skills, and ranks, but with his low movement, he doesn't have a chance to do much outside the home castle.

I think Armors are pretty good in 3H. They really went all-out in emphasizing their Defense, particularly in Fortress Knight. Still, I think they were better overall in Conquest - Effie had great offense, while Benny and Ignatius could avoid getting doubled with Wary Fighter.

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43 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I think Armors are pretty good in 3H. They really went all-out in emphasizing their Defense, particularly in Fortress Knight. Still, I think they were better overall in Conquest - Effie had great offense, while Benny and Ignatius could avoid getting doubled with Wary Fighter.

In Conquest (and Awakening) they were also helped considerably by Pair Up providing an organic way for them to keep up and always reach the front lines. Three Houses provides some methods too, but most of them are limited, and help other movement types just as much in absolute terms anyway. Other games provide even fewer options on average. Rescue would help in the the GBA titles but armours are often pretty hard to rescue, especially post-promotion, e.g. Oswin can only be rescued by Rath and Eliwood when all are promoted IIRC, and Gilliam's in an even worse spot.

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19 hours ago, mikalj said:

I do not believe either are in the game, but why should that matter if we are considering how to fix the class?

Modding purposes. Ideas that involve things that are in the game can be tested in practice, and so real experience comes out of it.

19 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

With what? Because without a healing staff equipped or being a Bishop, Physic isn't healing significantly more than 20 HP even lategame.

That is a good point, I forgot how underwhelming Physic is in this game.

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