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Mythic Hero - Elimine: Scouring Saint

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7 hours ago, TuxedoBird said:

Yuri’s English VA is a YouTuber I believe (Kaggy-something?) although I guess he wasn’t cast specifically for Heroes.

Yeah, Alejandro Saab goes by KaggyFilms on YouTube, Twitter and Twitch. I wouldn't know how much he puts out on YouTube, but he does have a channel.

Edit: Elimine's Super Asset(s) and Super Flaw(s) [SPOILERS]:

Spoiler

j8u4w78myce81.png

Super Asset(s): HP, Spd
Super Flaw(s): Def, Res

Her stat line was already shown in the trailer, so this is just for her super asset(s) and super flaw(s).

Edited by Tybrosion

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I've gotta say, Elimine's dialogue, especially her confession, feels very... off, in some way. Like, I feel like she might not necessarily be innocent where the corrupt factions of the Elimine Church are concerned? Wasn't expecting a really templar Elimine. Maybe it's because of Rhea's popularity.

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36 minutes ago, bethany81707 said:

I've gotta say, Elimine's dialogue, especially her confession, feels very... off, in some way. Like, I feel like she might not necessarily be innocent where the corrupt factions of the Elimine Church are concerned? Wasn't expecting a really templar Elimine. Maybe it's because of Rhea's popularity.

I haven’t read her dialogue but her battle conversation makes her seem kinda soft. That trust between men and gods go both ways

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1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I haven’t read her dialogue but her battle conversation makes her seem kinda soft. That trust between men and gods go both ways

Yeah, she also has the "god believes in the inherent strength of mankind" that is Sothis (and literally every Fire Emblem religion except Seiros), but she's also like "dragons are inherently evil and righteousness is equivalent to murdering them". And also kinda seems to think Hartmut sparing Idoun was a mistake? I'm willing to forgive the former, because war dragons in Elibe are artificial, but the latter makes it sound... considerably less good.

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I didn't use Elimine in an official AR match, only in mock battles... but I can already see the value she has.

Shutting down Ophelias and Ótrs, stopping Catrias... even if these foes are healed by Odd Reovery, they will still not get those buffs and status effects (if you False Start Legendary Sigurd, for example, and he is in range of an Odd Recovery unit, the Recovery skill will remove the negative status effect and heal him but he will still not have Movement+1 or even special ready if he has Quickened Pulse seal).

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5 hours ago, Diovani Bressan said:

(if you False Start Legendary Sigurd, for example, and he is in range of an Odd Recovery unit, the Recovery skill will remove the negative status effect and heal him but he will still not have Movement+1 or even special ready if he has Quickened Pulse seal).

I've seen people mentioning this on Reddit, too. So am I reading the description of False Start wrong, or is it worded badly? Because no matter how I look at it, it reads to me like Recovery skills should basically nullify the effects of False Start completely.

It also makes me wonder about the extra Summoner Duels clause in Staff of the Saint. It reads to me like False Start won't work on any start-of-turn effects except healing and damage, but is it actually the opposite? It works on everything except those?

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1 hour ago, Florete said:

I've seen people mentioning this on Reddit, too. So am I reading the description of False Start wrong, or is it worded badly? Because no matter how I look at it, it reads to me like Recovery skills should basically nullify the effects of False Start completely.

It also makes me wonder about the extra Summoner Duels clause in Staff of the Saint. It reads to me like False Start won't work on any start-of-turn effects except healing and damage, but is it actually the opposite? It works on everything except those?

@Diovani Bressan

The Summoner Duels segment regarding the application of False Start in Japanese is as follows:

(英雄決闘では、
 ターン開始スキル不可の付与と、
 敵軍のターン開始時スキルが同時の場合、
 回復やダメージ系以外は、同時に発動する)

In Summoner Duels,
in the event that False Start's application
and the enemy start-of-turn skills activate at the same time,
other than healing- and damage-type skills, they activate at the same time

This appears to match the description in English, but is worded kind of strangely.

Interestingly, the "and" used between "healing-type" and "damage-type" is a non-exhaustive "and", i.e. it implies an "etc."

 

The additional information in the description of False Start's effect in Japanese is as follows:

(ターン開始時、化身状態になる効果や、
 自分が比翼・双界スキルを使用済みなら
 再使用可能にする効果は発動できる)
(快癒等でターン開始時に状態異常が解除された場合は
 ターン開始の回復、ダメージ等の効果は発動する)

At the start of the turn, effects that result in transformation and
effects that allow another use of one's own Duo or Harmonized Skill after it is used
can activate

In the event that the status effect is removed at the start of the turn with a Recovery-series skill,
start-of-turn healing- and damage-type effects activate

This does not match the description in English.

The "and" between "effects that result in transformation" and "effects that allow another use..." is also non-exhaustive.

The "and" between "healing-type" and "damage-type" here is inconclusive whether or not it is exhaustive because it's just a comma.

 

Basically, what the two descriptions say is that healing and damage effects occur after all other start-of-turn effects, which otherwise occur simultaneously.

For the case of Summoner Duels, all start-of-turn effects other than healing and damage are applied first, which causes False Start to be applied before healing and damage effects can activate, causing them to be blocked. If the status removal part of Recovery skills counts as healing, then a unit that has a Recovery skill and is hit with False Start will not activate the Recovery skill's status removal effect (and unfortunately, this interaction can only be tested in Summoner Duels; anyone with a friend want to test?).

For the case of False Start being removed by Recovery skills, False Start will block skill effects other than healing and damage, then get removed by Recovery, then healing and damage effects are applied.

Putting these together, if a unit in Summoner Duels is hit with False Start, but is in range of a unit with a Recovery skill that wasn't hit with False Start, False Start will be removed, and the unit will activate all of their start-of-turn effects normally.

 

EDIT: tl;dr

Start-of-turn effects happen in this order:

  1. Conditions are checked
  2. All skill effects except those mentioned below occur
  3. Status-effect-removal effects occur (needs testing to see if this happens at the same time as step 2 or after step 2)
  4. Healing and damage effects occur
Edited by Ice Dragon

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1 hour ago, Florete said:

So am I reading the description of False Start wrong, or is it worded badly? Because no matter how I look at it, it reads to me like Recovery skills should basically nullify the effects of False Start completely

Its because of the order the efffects take place.

In AR, the first phase that takes order is the catapult effect from the structure and from Duma. The 2nd phase that takes place are all related to bonuses, penalties and transformations, so all those hones, chills, ploys, manaces, triangle attack effect, extra movement, orders and others. Then the 3rd phase that takes order is healing and damaging, being from Renewal, Odd/Even Recovery, Upheavel damage and Winter Bernadetta's 1 HP damage from her tome.

Since Odd Recovery only triggers in the 3rd phase, False Start can nullify the first and second phases. Then Recovery takes effect, removes the False Start status effect and then heals the ally as well.

Lets use a Duma with Renewal 3 in the B slot, Upheavel in his C slot and Armored Boots in his S slot as an example, and he has Saul with Odd Recovery next to him. Elimine inflicts Duma with False Start on the player's phase. Then on the enemy's phase its time to trigger the effects: first  phase is the catapult effect from Upheavel, but since he has False Start that doesn't trigger. The Second phase are the buffs, and he has Armored Boots... But since he has False Start, that also doesnt trigger as well. Then we have the phase 3, which is healing. Saul will trigger Odd Recovery, and it will remove all penalties on Duma and then heal him. Now Duma doesnt have False Start anymore because of that, but since its on the 3rd phase he can only trigger healings skills like Renewal.

In Summoner Duels, its a little different. Both teams trigger their effects at the same time, so the 2nd phase of effects, the Buffing and Debuffing skills trigger at the same time for both sides. So Elimine will inflict False Start at the same time Sigurd gets extra movement, so there is nothing to do about that. He will get Mov+1, you wanting it or not. However the False Start will affect the 3rd phase of effects, which is Healing and Damaging. However, Odd Recovery will nullify that.

Anyway, False Start is pretty much useless in Summoner Duels. Because it can only nullify healing and damaging effects that trigger at start of combat.

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7 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Its because of the order the efffects take place.

In AR, the first phase that takes order is the catapult effect from the structure and from Duma. The 2nd phase that takes place are all related to bonuses, penalties and transformations, so all those hones, chills, ploys, manaces, triangle attack effect, extra movement, orders and others. Then the 3rd phase that takes order is healing and damaging, being from Renewal, Odd/Even Recovery, Upheavel damage and Winter Bernadetta's 1 HP damage from her tome.

Since Odd Recovery only triggers in the 3rd phase, False Start can nullify the first and second phases. Then Recovery takes effect, removes the False Start status effect and then heals the ally as well.

Lets use a Duma with Renewal 3 in the B slot, Upheavel in his C slot and Armored Boots in his S slot as an example, and he has Saul with Odd Recovery next to him. Elimine inflicts Duma with False Start on the player's phase. Then on the enemy's phase its time to trigger the effects: first  phase is the catapult effect from Upheavel, but since he has False Start that doesn't trigger. The Second phase are the buffs, and he has Armored Boots... But since he has False Start, that also doesnt trigger as well. Then we have the phase 3, which is healing. Saul will trigger Odd Recovery, and it will remove all penalties on Duma and then heal him. Now Duma doesnt have False Start anymore because of that, but since its on the 3rd phase he can only trigger healings skills like Renewal.

In Summoner Duels, its a little different. Both teams trigger their effects at the same time, so the 2nd phase of effects, the Buffing and Debuffing skills trigger at the same time for both sides. So Elimine will inflict False Start at the same time Sigurd gets extra movement, so there is nothing to do about that. He will get Mov+1, you wanting it or not. However the False Start will affect the 3rd phase of effects, which is Healing and Damaging. However, Odd Recovery will nullify that.

Anyway, False Start is pretty much useless in Summoner Duels. Because it can only nullify healing and damaging effects that trigger at start of combat.

That makes sense, thanks for the detailed explanation. I still can't wrap my head around how the in-game description is supposed to match this, but I can at least understand how the status works now.

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24 minutes ago, Florete said:

That makes sense, thanks for the detailed explanation. I still can't wrap my head around how the in-game description is supposed to match this, but I can at least understand how the status works now.

"Effects that would have triggered at start of turn, like healing and damage, will then trigger" was incorrectly translated.

It should have been translated "healing and damage effects that would have triggered at start of turn will then trigger", i.e. "only" healing and damage effects, not "like" healing and damage effects.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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