Should Pokemon switch to more organic stats?

[Lord_Brand]

Many RPGs have stats with organic, flavorful names like Strength, Stamina, Agility, Intellect, and Wisdom. Pokemon's stats have decidedly more artificial and bland names: HP, Attack, Defense, Speed, Special Attack, and Special Defense. While they do an adequate job of describing their basic function, I can't help but to think more organic names could not only add flavor but also expand their functionality beyond combat.

To determine more organic names for these stats, I would look at what each stat's basis would be.

• HP - No real need to rename this stat, but it could be tied to a Stamina or Vitality stat.
• Attack - This is used to determine the power of physical attacks, so Strength seems like the obvious candidate.
• Defense - This describes the Pokemon's resistance to physical attacks, therefore could be described as Durability, Endurance, or Toughness. Bonus points for the fact this stat is associated with the Toughness contest condition.
• Speed - Of the six, this is the most flavorful and doesn't need to be renamed, but I could see it being split into "offense" and "defense" categories like Special was in Gen II.
• Special Attack - In most RPGs, Intellect is the stat most often associated with stronger magic attacks, which Special Attacks are analogous to. However, in Pokemon intellect or cleverness is tied moreso to Special Defense, so perhaps Spirit could be the organic replacement for Special Attack here?
• Special Defense - Wisdom or Spirit are the stats most often used for magic defense in RPGs, but in Pokemon, Special Defense is tied to cleverness, so Intellect could be the organic replacement here.

So, the six stats I would suggest are HP, Strength, Endurance, Speed, Spirit, and Intellect.

Thoughts?

[Parrhesia]

A solution in search of a problem. Besides, you'd then wind up with Amnesia doubling your Intellect. Endurance, Spirit and Intellect are generally tied to different practical applications in other RPGs, and it makes it more opaque for everyone, especially the target audience: children.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Parrhesia

[ping]

If we rebrand Attack as Strength, does Onix have the same weight capacity as Wurmple? Should Shuckle be the wisest Pokémon in the world? (I'm going to assume that Eternamax Eternatus is some special case)

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think it's a good idea to apply this kind of additional meaning to a system that has been created without any such ideas.

[Lord_Brand]

1 hour ago, Parrhesia said:

A solution in search of a problem. Besides, you'd then wind up with Amnesia doubling your Intellect. Endurance, Spirit and Intellect are generally tied to different practical applications in other RPGs, and it makes it more opaque for everyone, especially the target audience: children.

Why does Amnesia increase Special Defense, anyway? Though the flavor suggests the user is actually clearing their mind to forget their concerns. So why not call it Clear Mind?

Even a child should be able to figure out that being stronger lets you punch or throw something harder. If nothing else, the game could always spell it out. "Physical attacks use Strength. Special attacks use Spirit. Endurance resists physical attacks. Intellect resists special attacks."

50 minutes ago, pong said:

If we rebrand Attack as Strength, does Onix have the same weight capacity as Wurmple? Should Shuckle be the wisest Pokémon in the world? (I'm going to assume that Eternamax Eternatus is some special case)

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think it's a good idea to apply this kind of additional meaning to a system that has been created without any such ideas.

I think it's dumb that Onix's Attack is so low to begin with, especially considering you can't even catch it until the Rock Tunnel later in the game. How does one explain Shuckle having so much higher Special Defense than other Rock types in the first place? What's different about it? That's an issue outside the realm of renaming stats for better flavor.

The whole point is to enable the system to expand beyond combat. You could have minigames that care about the Pokemon's stats, like weight lifting and running, or a wrestling move where either the target or user takes damage, the probability of each depending on their respective Strength values. Maybe contests could include stunts that call for different stats, like juggling requiring high Speed or "Pokemon towers" that want stronger Pokemon on the bottom to support the weight of their companions on top? And of course there could be humorous inverted challenges that want you to pick Pokemon that are as poorly suited for their task as possible.

[vanguard333]

I think the names for the Pokémon stats are pretty good. What they lack in sounding "organic" they make up for in being clear as to what the stat does. Attack/Defense for physical moves and special attack/special defense for non-physical moves makes sense.

 

15 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Why does Amnesia increase Special Defense, anyway? Though the flavor suggests the user is actually clearing their mind to forget their concerns. So why not call it Clear Mind?

I was going to say "because there's already a move called 'clear mind'", but I double-checked and the move I was thinking of was called 'calm mind'. Still; it's close enough that there probably would be confusion which is also the name of another move.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I'm here for the concept! That said, I'd do the names a bit differently:

HP -> Health. Simple enough.

Attack -> Strength. I agree with this one.

Defense -> Durability. Same concept, but this way it's starting with the same letter.

Speed -> Agility. I know it's already a move name, but so is "Strength". It makes sense a more agile Mon would attack first.

Special Attack -> Intellect. Same name you used, but to a different end. Alakazam is the embodiment of both "intelligence" and "special sweeper".

Special Defense -> Resilience. This one's borrowed from Three Houses, without saying "Resistance", because type resistances exist.

And, what's this? Each stat now begins with a different letter! Rather than the confusing abbreviations of the past (i.e. does "SPD" stand for "Special Defense" or "Speed"?), each stat can be represented with a single character: H, S, D, A, I, and R.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Mistake.

[Lord_Brand]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

I was going to say "because there's already a move called 'clear mind'", but I double-checked and the move I was thinking of was called 'calm mind'. Still; it's close enough that there probably would be confusion which is also the name of another move.

Magic Room, Trick Room, Trick, Power Trick, Thunder, Thunderbolt...lots of moves have similar names.

57 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm here for the concept! That said, I'd do the names a bit differently:

HP -> Health. Simple enough.

Attack -> Strength. I agree with this one.

Defense -> Durability. Same concept, but this way it's starting with the same letter.

Speed -> Agility. I know it's already a move name, but so is "Strength". It makes sense a more agile Mon would attack first.

Special Attack -> Intellect. Same name you used, but to a different end. Alakazam is the embodiment of both "intelligence" and "special sweeper".

Special Defense -> Resilience. This one's borrowed from Three Houses, without saying "Resistance", because type resistances exist.

And, what's this? Each stat now begins with a different letter! Rather than the confusing abbreviations of the past (i.e. does "SPD" stand for "Special Defense" or "Speed"?), each stat can be represented with a single character: H, S, D, A, I, and R.

My main reason for using Intellect as S. Defense rather than S. Attack is because S. Defense has a preexisting connection to smarts through the Clever (formerly Smart) contest condition, while S. Attack is connected to Beauty, hence my use of Spirit (which can also refer to spiritual energy aka ki).

That said, yes, giving each stat its own first letter would make abbreviation much less confusing (I've gotten tripped up by SPD myself before ^ ^; ).

Edited January 31, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Lightcosmo]

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

think it's dumb that Onix's Attack is so low to begin with,

My guess is that its like that So new players could have an easy time vs Brock in R/B/Y. 

[Armchair General]

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

My guess is that its like that So new players could have an easy time vs Brock in R/B/Y. 

I just assumed that the devs wanted to emphasize that the Rock isn't an offensive Type; and to be fair, it barely is one, nowadays, outside of the fossils or Gigalith.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Armchair General

[Lord_Brand]

5 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

My guess is that its like that So new players could have an easy time vs Brock in R/B/Y. 

Then why make us wait so long to catch one ourselves?

3 hours ago, Armchair General said:

I just assumed that the devs wanted to emphasize that the Rock isn't an offensive Type; and to be fair, it barely is one, nowadays, outside of the fossils or Gigalith.

But there are plenty of Rock-types that hit hard. The Geodude line, Rhyhorn line, Aerodactyl, Kabutops...Rock should hit hard. Not only is it heavy, it can also form sharp edges as demonstrated with Stone Edge. Heck, Rock's better as an offense type than as a defense type, what with it being weak to Fighting, Ground, Steel, Grass, and Water. And Onix is a freaking giant snake made out of rock.

[ping]

7 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

The whole point is to enable the system to expand beyond combat. You could have minigames that care about the Pokemon's stats, like weight lifting and running, or a wrestling move where either the target or user takes damage, the probability of each depending on their respective Strength values. Maybe contests could include stunts that call for different stats, like juggling requiring high Speed or "Pokemon towers" that want stronger Pokemon on the bottom to support the weight of their companions on top? And of course there could be humorous inverted challenges that want you to pick Pokemon that are as poorly suited for their task as possible.

I mean...

I actually didn't know that the five Pokéathlon stats do have their respective combat equivalent, with how natures impact what stat. But a species's "performance stat" does not go hand in hand with the connected combat stat (for example, the Bulbapedia article shows Typhlosion, whose Sp.Atk is its best stat, but it's bad at jumping). Anyway, I think that was the correct way to go - a new system, that was most definitely not planned when RBY were developed, should have new stat speads.

Which also means that if you want combat stats to be connected with a Pokémon's abilities in everyday life, you'd have to completely redo the entire combat system, as well. Pokémon DnD sounds like a funny concept, not gonna lie, but it's a rather different scope than just renaming the stats. And just renaming them, as I said, would suggest a meaning for a number that it just doesn't have.

Shuckle's gimmick is that it take very little damage from attacks, but also doesn't have a big HP pool. That gimmick "makes sense" - Shuckle has a soft, vulnerable body hidden in a very durable armour - but it wouldn't make sense to retroactively say that Shuckle has been this pillar of wisdom all along. And while Onix admittedly has odd stats to begin with, you would find similar, if less extreme, oddities to Shuckle everywhere. Sandshrew and Sandslash have low Sp.Atk and Sp.Def? Seems legit, they're a physical tank, that's a sensible stat spread. Sandshrew and Sandslash are inherently very stupid? Less legit.

 

[Yexin]

there's no need to change how Stats are called and work IMHO, they're fine the way they are, and it's also part of what makes Pokémon games different from other JRPGs

furthermore, more complex names wouldn't help the target Pokémon games so obsessively try to appeal to: children

[Jotari]

I much prefer Pokemon stat names compared to most other rpgs anyway. How many times have I wondered what "spirit" does in a game.

[Lightcosmo]

8 hours ago, Armchair General said:

I just assumed that the devs wanted to emphasize that the Rock isn't an offensive Type; and to be fair, it barely is one, nowadays, outside of the fossils or Gigalith.

It could be that as well, but considering Geodude is equally as bad, i find it difficult to believe it's a coincidence.

5 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Then why make us wait so long to catch one ourselves?

Well... cause the devs almost never think about consequences?

[Armchair General]

11 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

But there are plenty of Rock-types that hit hard. The Geodude line, Rhyhorn line, Aerodactyl, Kabutops...Rock should hit hard. Not only is it heavy, it can also form sharp edges as demonstrated with Stone Edge. Heck, Rock's better as an offense type than as a defense type, what with it being weak to Fighting, Ground, Steel, Grass, and Water. And Onix is a freaking giant snake made out of rock.

Yes, but the problem is that there isn't an lot of powerful Rock attacks, for some reason. I just settled with spamming Magnitude and Earthquake with my Golem.

[Jotari]

I thought Rock was considered to be a great offensive typing due to the typing that it hits. Specifically the fact that it hits flying types and is only resisted by fighting, ground and steel. Defensively it actually kind of sucks as it has a lot of weaknesses.

[indigoasis]

I think that the names of stats right now are fine. They get the point across effectively enough, which is what you would want for a game marketed towards kids... and for players like me that were confused for a moment when they changed the name of Skill to Dexterity in Three Houses.

[Lord_Brand]

11 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Well... cause the devs almost never think about consequences?

When will they learn that their actions have consequences?

4 hours ago, Armchair General said:

Yes, but the problem is that there isn't an lot of powerful Rock attacks, for some reason. I just settled with spamming Magnitude and Earthquake with my Golem.

Rock Slide, Power Gem, Stone Edge, Diamond Storm, Meteor Beam, Head Smash, Rock Wrecker...granted, most of those weren't available back in Gen I, but even so, Onix was also part-Ground, so at least it could have taken advantage of Dig and Earthquake.

[Lightcosmo]

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

When will they learn that their actions have consequences?

If that were the case, the games would actually have some balance. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

When will they learn that their actions have consequences?

"When will you learn?"

"When will you learn?"

"That your actions have consequences!"

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Rock Slide, Power Gem, Stone Edge, Diamond Storm, Meteor Beam, Head Smash, Rock Wrecker...granted, most of those weren't available back in Gen I, but even so, Onix was also part-Ground, so at least it could have taken advantage of Dig and Earthquake.

"Name a widely accessible, competitively viable, physical Rock-type attack with 100% accuracy" Challenge

Impossible! 100% of Trainers Fail!

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

I thought Rock was considered to be a great offensive typing due to the typing that it hits. Specifically the fact that it hits flying types and is only resisted by fighting, ground and steel. Defensively it actually kind of sucks as it has a lot of weaknesses.

Also that nothing is immune to it. Not even any abilities grant Rock immunity.

Stealth Rock moment.

[Lord_Brand]

Another interesting note about Rock is that if a Pokemon that's every type at once existed, Rock would be the only type super-effective against it.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Armchair General]

16 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Rock Slide, Power Gem, Stone Edge, Diamond Storm, Meteor Beam, Head Smash, Rock Wrecker...granted, most of those weren't available back in Gen I, but even so, Onix was also part-Ground, so at least it could have taken advantage of Dig and Earthquake.

Some of those were exclusive to certain Pokemon and my point was that there's nothing that as spammable as Flamethrower or Aerial Ace. It's either an low power move with moderate PP or an good one with only 5 uses. Sure, there's Rollout, which only works well if you can afford to draw out the fight.

It's weird, the only time that I struck with Rock was with my first game, back when Diamond game out. Ever since then, I realized that Dragons are infinitely better on account of rare it is to run into an counter for them. Sure, fairies exists; but it gives me an excuse to try out Toxicroak.