Can We Talk About How Bizzare TH Avatar is? (And how it could be fixed)

[DoomRPG]

Now its no mystery that Intelligent Systems is a misnomer. And that the company has a consistent track record with making really peculiar decisions that make no sense from any. Angle.

Case and point. Byleth. Literally the least customizable avatar in the series. Kris can wear a bunch of funny hats. Robin has little physical variety. But a bunch of gameplay variety. (Omni-class access in a game where classes are actually different.)

Corrin is Robin but less.

Even Mark. From FE7. Might seem to have the same amount of customization, just gender and date. But those two decisions for Mark have far more impact than Byleth's.
Byleth's birthday determines when you get an underpowered item that's only useful on maddening. Only useful for a few characters. And only for a limited time! While that same decision for Mark buffs specific units with a bonus that stacks with tactician stars.
Admittedly, those bonuses are very light, small, forgettable. But they are far more impactful over the course of the game then the easily replaced charm items.

As for gender. Byleth gets to decide classes! In a game that has homogenized all classes to being the same. In other words. Byleth isn't really deciding class, but appearance and whether they can get Darting blow.
(Or quick riposte but that's impractical without grinding.)

Mark's gender has no gameplay difference. But still gets a different sprite and several lines of different dialogue. Most notably with Sain and Florina. If Byleth's class access was actually meaningful, maybe they'd have a point over Mark. But they don't.

But hey. This has an upside. Especially since IS has been trying to be real ambitious with their story telling. A more solidified Avatar has grounds for more personality and for actually existing in the narrative.
Byleth.
Says.
Nothing.
Their dialogue choices are completely meaningless in true FE fashion. (Except one. For early Lance of Ruin.)

And even then said choices leave no room for actual. Character.

And yet the narrative treats Byleth as this incredibly desirable (in more ways than one) super inspiring messiah. Despite having no personality.
And their lack of personality or character actively hurts the story! Most notably with Blue Lions. It makes zero sense for Byleth to be what saves Dimitri. His friends. That have been there since childhood. That have full awareness of who Dimitri used to be. All of whom have actual personality and character traits. Should be the ones that do so.

I think its fairly safe to say that when combined with how the narrative treats them. And yet how little of Byleth is actually there. Its damn near objective that they are a worst mary sue than even Corrin. Corrin!

Yet if you ask me Byleth manages to fail at even doing that for one simple reason.

Instead of treating Byleth as to mean "Avatar of absurd importance" it means "Literal object. An actual macguffin"

You'll find that the story survives fine. For the most part. BL's story improves. If only slightly. BE is hurt but its primarily Edelgard's story so it works out. (She's just a weirdo whose in love with a literal object. But has other interests and hobbies and such.) SS is missing its supposed lead. But Seteath is there and he's an actual person so I guess he's main character now. VW. Barely changes.

Fate's story completely collapses if Corrin is replaced with a piece of cardboard named Corrin. For more reasons than Corrin needing to make one single decision of any meaning. Edelgard being a little weird is exaggerated by SEVERAL characters. Most obviously Camilla and Hinoka, but others. Like Jakob, Felicia, Lilith, literally existing to suck off Corrin. The plot breaks open when the tumor that is Corrin's writing is removed.
So yeah.

Byleth is dumb. Its even acknowledged in the cutscenes. I'm serious. If you go by the cinematics. Byleth is so incredibly incompetent that they'd lose to Roy.
Roy!
Leif too would suplex the shit out of canon!Byleth. The Ashen demon doesn't stand a chance against the weakest Lad in Leonstar.

So I think its been fairly established that Byleth's current implementation is dumb, bizarre, incompetent, and manages to fail at story telling and narrative so badly it wraps around and manages to kind of succeed better than Fates? (Ofc you could argue Fates, unlike 3H. is so bad its good. But that's a matter of opinion.)

So how could it be fixed? Well. I have a few ideas of increasing complexity and need to rewrite the story.

1. Byleth is literally a bodyguard to a specific house leader. Or to Rhea herself. All gameplay is the same. They are in the story, a literal bludgeon to be used. Done.

2. Remove Jeralt from the story and have Rhea be their sole caretaker. You start the story in Garrag Mach. Have people reflect on how Byleth's complete lack of personality reflects on Rhea's parental skills. Done.

3. Holy hell we need to actually give Byleth a real personality and traits and a story that needs them to function in the first place. If I was given that job here's what I'd do. In a step-by-step process.
1. Jeralt is the actual third professor. He keeps Byleth with him when he leaves because Jeralt doesn't trust Rhea.
2. Jeralt is a lazy SOB so he employs his kid to do all the paperwork. He only shows up on the battlefield in order to jeigan.
3. During part 1. Byleth is a quiet, shy, introspective, and meditative philosopher. Every time you select explore your greeted to Byleth rising from a prayer mat and surrounded by incense and stuff. If you actually investigate the room, you'll have Byleth comment on the items present in the manner consistent with someone thoughtful and has experience in murder. Lots of murder. And general thuggery too.
4. Also as a common theme of part 1. Have Byleth's title of "Ashen Demon" Be a negative. It turns out gossipy teenagers don't like being around somebody they know for a fact is a murderous thug whose killed people for cash. Whose beat people to a pulp. For cash. Whose done great acts of "charity" like protect merchant caravans from bandits. For. Cash. Similarly. The nickname for Byleth in Part 1 is Ashen Demon. Everyone who uses it in Byleth's face. Speaks with a tone that they are fully aware Byleth is capable of gutting them. For. Cash. Even if Byleth isn't actually greedy. The other characters have no way of knowing that without interacting with them. Of course. Part 1. Byleth not only does not enjoy this. they do not like the "Ashen Demon" nickname.
5 to tie into 4. Take advantage of the fact that Byleth went from "no personality" to "quiet and shy." be misinterpreted in universe against them! Obviously the Ashen Demon doesn't speak because they are a felix-tier edgelord that thinks only of their next victim.
Y'know instead of this new interpretation being literally uncomfortable in social situations.
Speaking of that.
6. The lords. Use them to contrast Byleth.
Edelgard: Shy awkward painting all to her loathsome? A (well hidden) phobia of rats. And also a philosophy separate from the church. Have Byleth's interactions with them pave for character devolopment of both instead of neither.
Interacting with Byleth can easily show them how to be more confident and upstanding. While on the other hand. Their own philosophy can come to mold Edelgard's own to be less comically self destructive and blind to reality.
Dimitri: Noble prince with the future of his nation at his hands, yet a dark secret that threatens to consume him. Meets an ostracized yet far more wordly experienced commoner who desires to change their outward mask to reflect their true self. The story is writing itself as far as I'm concerned.
Claude: Remember that philosophizing I mentioned earlier? You can easily bring it back here ala Edelgard. Give the guy an actual chance to clarify what he wants beyond the vaguest generalizations. And actually ask the guy if he has any way to stop Almyrans from pillaging Fodlan once they are actually in. Which is pretty much their stated objective.
Rhea: Actually interact with her in ways that aren't Rhea being coco for coco puffs or obstinate religious maniac. Drop the Sothis part of the relationship completely.
7
Time skip without Byleth being in stasis. Have them earn a new nickname dependent on who they picked. Continue character devolopment for the three main lord routes. And as for SS.

(SS exclusive.)
Have Rhea be the real main lord. Have her and Byleth go on a sliding scale of disagreement and agreement on just about every topic. Culminating in Byleth and Rhea reaching their character specific master classes to represent them each individually refining their own beliefs through constant argumentation. (Obviously in routes where Byleth isn't important. Like the non-SS routes. They should not promote at all.)

[AnonymousSpeed]

9 minutes ago, DoomRPG said:

its no mystery that Intelligent Systems is a misnomer.

This is a good line. I'm gonna steal it.

Best way to improve Byleth in Three Houses would be to make a different game.

[DoomRPG]

13 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

This is a good line. I'm gonna steal it.

Best way to improve Byleth in Three Houses would be to make a different game.

Thank you!

And of course permission granted. You can not only steal my word but use it legally!

I mean its not like I copyrighted it. Since even if I approve of the concept of copyright. its current implementation is severely flawed.

[Florete]

1. It's case in point.
2. Nah, I like Byleth as-is. Having a defined personality stops the likes of Corrin and Robin from properly functioning as avatars. Byleth works pretty well for what they're meant to be.
3. Lack of proper customization is unfortunate, though isn't really a problem with Byleth, but other parts of the game. If you want pre-rendered cutscenes that have freedom to show things properly, you can't do much appearance customization (personally, I take this trade-off). The 'lack' of class customization - compared to other characters, at least - is a fault of the game's class mechanics.

[vanguard333]

Fire Emblem has always had a problem with its avatar characters. Fixed protagonists and custom protagonists have different strengths and weaknesses, and FE avatars are usually an awkward mix of the two that doesn't really utilize the advantages of a custom protagonist.

In the case of Byleth specifically, the combination of a fixed character and dialogue choices makes Byleth come across less like a custom protagonist that is our insert character, and more of a fixed character that we are guiding, like Geralt of Rivia in The Witcher games or Toon Link from Wind Waker and its sequels. The obvious problem there is that Geralt and Toon Link are brimming with personality; taking advantage of being a fixed character, while Byleth is the exact opposite.

[Armchair General]

At least Claude admits to openly using Byleth as an bludgeon, though. Not too sure about Edelgard.

[SnowFire]

I'm no fan of Byleth, but this is silly. 

• If you don't like Byleth, then you should be happy that the "lords" get to take the lead and pilot the plot in the second half of the game.  It's a good thing that an intentionally vague character doesn't have to do that much, not a bad thing.  Byleth's purpose (in addition to the usual Extremely Good At Killing People thing) is something like Chief Psychologist / Buddy in AM / CF who keeps the Lord grounded from their worst instincts, and fills in a slightly different kind of wish fulfillment: that of Really Cool People complimenting "you" and talking about how much they need your help/friendship/etc.  It's not my bag of tea, but some people *really* like this stuff.  In VW, it's more like figurehead for Claude since he's a lot saner by default, although still with some wish fulfillment in the Epilogue splitting up Fodlan & Almyra between Byleth & Claude.
  • For the Blue Lions specifically, I sort of agree with you, but the game decided to make it so that Dedue could be unrecruited and Felix/Ingrid could be dead, which limits options.  Rodrigue is still pretty key in bringing Dimitri back to sanity whom the game knows will be around though.
• I don't think "customizable" is good or bad - you can make interesting designs where characters are customizable (Robin) and ones where they're rigid (Alm).  The important question is if it's fun, flavorful, and leads to good gameplay.  FE7 Tactician bonuses are uninteresting because the game doesn't explain them and if they were large enough to matter (they're not), then they just arbitrarily make a class of characters better in all circumstances.  Byleth is highly customizable in the most important way (hint: it's not their birthday): what classes and skills you build on them.  Enlightened One Support Byleth, Wyvern Lord Dodgetank Byleth, and Gremory Byleth all play very differently.
• On appearance customizability: 3H was delayed two times before being shoved out the door.  I expect that a combination of rendered cutscenes involving Byleth and the hair color change being a plot point were why physical customization wasn't a huge priority for launch.  The DLC added various outfits if you want to make Byleth look different, give them a shot.
• I don't know where you're getting Byleth is dumb from.  The game goes to pains to have characters compliment Byleth on their Unbeatable Strategies after their class wins the Battle of Eagle & Lion.  Byleth never really makes any notable "mistakes" either (Which, unfortunately, makes them boring - great characters make great mistakes - but cuts against your point here, there's no Eirika-giving-the-Stone-to-Lyon moment).  Then again, Roy isn't dumb either (a touch naive, perhaps, but he's freaking 15 years old), so maybe you mean something else with that.
• While it's not particularly realistic, there's nothing in the text to suggest that Jeralt's band had a reputation as "murderous thugs who killed people for cash."  I agree that the plot not playing on the Ashen Demon reputation more is a lost opportunity, but it'd strictly be for "very scary in battle".  It seems from what little we know that Jeralt's mercs were the equivalent of Greil's mercs in FE9: they only fought Bad People like bandits and such.  
• I have my own ideas for rewriting the plot deeply, but I'll just say that I don't really think your revision of Byleth / Rhea / Jeralt works (even ignoring concocting an excuse for why Rhea had to wait 16 years to start her scheme to reawaken Sothis).  Just flavorfully, the player doesn't know the situation in-universe at all.  Having Byleth be a clueless outsider who gets to meet everyone and figure out who to trust is interesting and gripping and fits with the player identification.  A Byleth who grew up at Garreg Mach and presumably knew and trusted all the faculty, Flayn, Tomas, etc. would be a fundamentally different character, unless they literally got smacked by the amnesia stick even harder than they already were.  And why make Jeralt unsympathetic?

Anyway, for my own take, I'm not a huge fan of self-insert characters, but they very clearly serve a purpose.  Byleth isn't great, but they aren't awful either.  If the game just toned down the sections where everyone stands around and tells Byleth how much they love them, that'd go pretty far to fixing the issues for me.  For me, the biggest problem with Byleth was something you didn't even bring up.  Very loosely speaking, the Lords all have "political" plots where they have different visions of how to fix Fodlan.  Byleth "Fell Star" Eisner has a personal plot about anime superpowers, ancient church secrets, and an evil cult out to kill their dad / the host of Ultimate Power.  And, well, everyone already knows that this plot drops the ball.  Some of this is on Byleth's feet: for me, the first thing to fix is just to have Byleth react more in the second half and actively investigate things rather than just being along for the ride.  Aren't they interested in who killed Jeralt?  Why?  What the bad guys will do with Sothis's power if they claim it?  Hell, just have Byleth triumphantly crowing about getting revenge at Shambala, or being confused as to why the Slitherers hate them, or something.  Of course, this leads to the new problem of now spending more time on the game's lesser plot, but so be it.  3H is kinda similar to New Mystery of the Emblem on this - theoretically, the whole thing with Eremiya's assassins was supposed to be Kris's personal plot, while Marth still handled the resurrected evil dragon?  But it doesn't really work.

Edited February 4, 2022 by SnowFire

[DoomRPG]

Fair enough Snowfire. As in the end its a matter of opinion on how story/avatars.

I only really have one respone to one specific point. When it comes to story, Though.
 

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what classes and skills you build on them.  Enlightened One Support Byleth, Wyvern Lord Dodgetank Byleth, and Gremory Byleth all play very differently.

I'd bring up that literally everyone in the game can dodgetank as wyvern lord. And half the cast can do so as a falcon knight. Half the cast can also go gremory.
The only unique thing Byleth brings is Enlightened one. So they have a very slight advantage in a game where everyone is everyone else.

Byleth's own variety is undercut by the game mechanics itself being omni-variable.
I'm sure we all know the quote "When everyone's super. No one will be."

Anyhow more important. Story talk. One that's because of my not communicating properly.

 

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I don't know where you're getting Byleth is dumb from.  The game goes to pains to have characters compliment Byleth on their Unbeatable Strategies after their class wins the Battle of Eagle & Lion.  Byleth never really makes any notable "mistakes" either (Which, unfortunately, makes them boring - great characters make great mistakes - but cuts against your point here, there's no Eirika-giving-the-Stone-to-Lyon moment).  Then again, Roy isn't dumb either (a touch naive, perhaps, but he's freaking 15 years old), so maybe you mean something else with that.

What I mean by Byleth being dumb.
Is that they do make mistakes. Incredibly stupid mistakes  Mistakes so incredibly stupid that I, someone completely uneducated and inexperienced with being a "flawless" messiah. Would recognize as objectively idiotic decisions.

The first big thing that comes to mind is the Edelgard cutscene right after the tutorial. Byleth would have died were it not Sothis. They would have perished because they decided to block an axe with their spinal cord.
They would have died, because they chose to block an axe. With their spine.
Then there's the mage in the SoTC temple. Byleth shows zero adaptability and instantly should've died the moment something new appeared. (I'm not against the shield spell 100%. Its dumb that its unmentioned nor show up in gameplay. But I don't find it offensive as an idea. If anything I'd love for it to become a gameplay thing.) My issue is that Byleth would've died from a fireball because they cannot figure out how to act when something new shows up.
Also as for using their time manipulation power to the best of their ability.
They give up the instant it fails to work once. This literally kills Jeralt.
Anyone whose willing to use unrestrained divine pulse will quickly figure out that it doesn't stop working when someone dies. (That be an amazing gameplay feature! And encourage you to use DP proactively rather than reactively.)

As for the tactics stuff. Everyone in the series whose supposed to lead shows up. And given that Byleth's other showing of intellect. It leaves a pretty clear impression that instead of Byleth being an amazing tactician. They are instead a bumbling idiot in "canon" and the standards of the lords for tactical brilliance is exceptionally low.

Roy and Leif have no cutscenes establishing them as moronic troglodytes who cannot function without supervision. Ergo they are far more competent since we aren't shown anything contrary to what we are told.
Erika does stupid plot things. But at her worst, she's still smarter than "Blocks axe with spinal cord." You can't even make the arguement that Byleth made an emotional decision like what Erika clearly did. Since Byleth feels nothing.


 

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Nah, I like Byleth as-is. Having a defined personality stops the likes of Corrin and Robin from properly functioning as avatars. Byleth works pretty well for what they're meant to be.

I think that might be a reason as the why the avatar systems as a while is undesirable. A character as well defined as Corrin cannot do the role, but a blank slate like Byleth ends up as consistently uninteresting while still being trapped in a role that demands they steal the spotlight from vastly more interesting characters. 

[Florete]

5 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think that might be a reason as the why the avatar systems as a while is undesirable. A character as well defined as Corrin cannot do the role, but a blank slate like Byleth ends up as consistently uninteresting while still being trapped in a role that demands they steal the spotlight from vastly more interesting characters. 

Undesirable to who?  Sure, if you ask around here you'll get people saying they don't like avatars, but IS keeps doing it and the avatars (post Kris) all rank well in Choose Your Legends, which suggests plenty of people do like them.

I would argue Byleth doesn't even steal the spotlight, at least not like Robin and Corrin do. Your chosen house leader is still largely the protagonist of the story at hand.

[Azz]

While Byleth fails as an avatar, I personally don't mind them and they are by far my favourite of what IS wanted to intend them as avatars. Personally I look at Byleth like the Hero from Dragon Quest or the protagonists from Persona 3-5. A silent character who has undeniable charisma for whatever reason and is somewhat of an enigma.

The only scene where Byleth's presence and intention actually annoys me is in Azure Moon, in the scene with Dimitri after the Blood of the Eagle and Lion, which should have Dimitri and Dedue rather than Byleth but AM treated Dedue like shit and that's a whole conversation for another time.

Other than that, Byleth is my favourite of the 'avatar' characters if you will and the best, with Robin being second.

[DoomRPG]

3 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think that might be a reason as the why the avatar systems as a while is undesirable. A character as well defined as Corrin cannot do the role, but a blank slate like Byleth ends up as consistently uninteresting while still being trapped in a role that demands they steal the spotlight from vastly more interesting characters. 

I'd say Robin (when Awakening isn't being awakening) and Kris (When he isn't stealing lines.)
Are both okay avatars. Their good points are just drowned out by the awfulness elsewhere.
While both Corrin and Byleth have almost nothing going for them in either direction.

 

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Nah, I like Byleth as-is. Having a defined personality stops the likes of Corrin and Robin from properly functioning as avatars. Byleth works pretty well for what they're meant to be.

I really do want to  genuinely and unironically ask. You. Florete. If you'd prefer a genuine self insert. Or you actually like having these malignant plot tumors that hurt the stories and character of others. Because I'd be fine with the former personally, but FE hasn't had one yet. (The closest is Kris and I'd say he'd count if he didn't steal half the script.)

 

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IS keeps doing it and the avatars (post Kris) all rank well in Choose Your Legends, which suggests plenty of people do like them.

I would argue Byleth doesn't even steal the spotlight, at least not like Robin and Corrin do. Your chosen house leader is still largely the protagonist of the story at hand.

IS keeps doing it because it is a sad truth that the vast majority of consumers in any product have incredibly low standards who are pleased with. Anything. If you marketed Gatekeeper at those people. They'll love him too. If Kris was marketed to them. They'd love him/her too.
It feels rather awful to type that because I'm pretty filthy on the casual scale. But its just true.
Though I lack the physical means to gather evidence for that statement. So I guess Its still a matter of opinion. I'd like to point out candy crush makes billions despite constantly being derided as cookie cutter formulaic match-3.

But as for something more substantial and important. Your comment about stealing the spotlight from the other lords.
1. Byleth devalues the intellect of the other lords by being their designated tactician. This is going to include some explaining but I'll spoiler the fluff if your not interested.

 

Spoiler

FE is a series of strategy games. In most pre-modern games. It was basically always the case that the main lord was also the presumed tactician. The only exceptions were Sigurd (who had Oifey) and Ike (Who had Soren.) Since Awakening. The only FE lord to not have a tactician is Corrin. Who steals the spotlight from nobody. They. ARE. the spotlight with the narrative and world existing for them. Rather than the other way around. (Which I'd argue is worst. Corrin is just. Really. Really bad. But stealing a spotlight isn't something they really did. The narrative always existed to glorify Corrin. With everything. EVERYTHING else being a side note. Compare how Edelgard is merely avatarsexual. While Camilla and Hinoka exist only to pander Corrin. With no personality outside of exactly that.)

This was made to work for Robin and Kris. The latter is literally bodyguard. The tactician was someone else. And they aren't recruited until most of the game is done. Marth is the implied tactical mind.  Robin is a tactician. Though Chrom is also consistently portrayed as something of a muscle-headed himbo. Acts before thinking and is generally gung-ho. In other words. Not the type of person you'd expect to have "Master strategist" on their portfolio.

On the other hand. NONE of the 3H lords are portrayed as being idiotic. In any sense of the word. The closest we get is Dimitri. Who is undeniably not stupid, but rather full on mentally ill and wouldn't be expected to make rounded decisions even if they could. Edelgard and Claude both have philosophies that are seperate from the norm. The former is clearly closer to Chrom or Ike or Alm, but not in the range of "Completely incapable of complex thinking." And the latter is shilled as a grand cunning mastermind.

Claude never gets to show a single smidge of genius literally anywhere. His every plan is repeated on at least one other route. Shown off-screen entirely (holding alliance together.) And Byleth does all the tacticing on the battlefield soooo.
Claude's claim of being a strategist is just never shown. Its told, this would be fine if Byleth didn't exist or if the lords were the main tacticians. Since the gameplay would be their "proof."

Given how I earlier explained instance of Canon!Byleth being a complete and total idiot whose incapable of the most basic of tasks or improvisation. This leads to the direct implication that all 3 lords have such exceptionally low tactical standards they consider Byleth ingenious.

This is in spite of how when deprived of Byleth. They do perform strategies you can't perform in gameplay. Suggesting they are literally held back by trusting Byleth.

Byleth does steal the spotlight. Less than Robin. Absolutely (except on SS. But they are the lord for that route so... I'd say it doesn't count. If Rhea showed up and was playable. Probably. But as is. Doesn't count.)
But they do so.

Other examples that are far more minor but exist.
2. Edelgard is an avatarsexual for literally no reason. Hubert and Ferdinand both make far more sense for her to have any romantic inclination for. If she has them. They are only expressed in paired endings (which. Well. Anything can happen in those. SoV anyone?)

3. Byleth's martial abilities are constantly shilled in supports and some base dialogue. Felix is a prime example. Despite it being a very realistic probability that not only does Felix have a much higher sword skill than Byleth. (Dialogue does not change to reflect this ever.) He will always claim Byleth is superior. This is in spite of the fact Byleth has no reason to be more skilled or experienced then Felix. (Most other students. Yes. But not Felix in particular. Whose been through battle. Spends 100% of time training. And has nothing else to spend his time on.)






 

[Sasori]

Byleth is about as interesting as a plank of wood, but this time around I just kinda rolled with it. Mostly focusing on the actually interesting conversations between real characters and just nodding along a bit when they worshipped him. I did't feel very dissapointed by Byleth, even if he was the least interesting part of three houses.

But I do think Byleth fails at two things. The first is that I don't really 'buy' Byleth's excuse for being a audience surrogate. Robin had Amnesia and Corrin was a disney prince(cess) so I can see why they would be completely ignorant about the world they live in. But I see no scenario in how Byleth would not know what a 'church of Seiros' is. He's a famed mercenary that traveled through the continent. Even a braindead zombie like Byleth must have seen a church at one time.

But secondly is that Byleth being Byleth kinda ruins a character for me. I can see Sothis being a entertaining character, but her being stuck in Byleth's head means she has zero chances to shine. 

[GlitchWarrior]

I don't know much about if Byleth specifically is even fixable. There is, however, a different solution that I think would be difficult to implement, but give us an overall better avatar- give them a personality. Or rather, personalities. You get to pick your avatar's "character traits" at the beginning of the story, and those alter scenes to represent how your avatar specifically reacts to them. Furthermore, said avatar is NOT the main character, so IS doesn't have to write 3 different sets of dialogue for every line in the game- just a good, but not complete, chunk of them. This probably is a long shot to imagine, but you know.

[DoomRPG]

11 minutes ago, GlitchWarrior said:

I don't know much about if Byleth specifically is even fixable. There is, however, a different solution that I think would be difficult to implement, but give us an overall better avatar- give them a personality. Or rather, personalities. You get to pick your avatar's "character traits" at the beginning of the story, and those alter scenes to represent how your avatar specifically reacts to them. Furthermore, said avatar is NOT the main character, so IS doesn't have to write 3 different sets of dialogue for every line in the game- just a good, but not complete, chunk of them. This probably is a long shot to imagine, but you know.

Several personalities would be a massive improvement! I can already imagine how this can have both gameplay and story ramifications too. Using 3H as an example assuming it had this feature. Choosing shy and reserved as a personality could make support building with characters like Bernie, or Ignatiz faster than an aggressive personality.
(That said. Probably not enough to completely fix 100% of Byleth's issues by itself. But Byleth is horrible and trying to fix them is at this point. A mental challenge to see if you even can.)

I think this would make Kris and Robin vast improvements. Perhaps Corrin to. Though the story in Fates is structured around Corrin's perfection. So multiple personality Corrin might just be impossible without restructing Fates itself.

Kris in particular I can see being a huge improvement. Instead of this random bloke who has an abusive grandfather. Is obsessed with Marth. Steals dialogue. And has shonen-tier bloodlust. We could have 4-8 different characters reacting to Katarina and being Marth's bodyguard.
Kris's current personality would be fine if it was one extreme option.
Being the only thing you get is what makes its lackluster execution so awful to me.

Robin in general suffers real badly from Fatesawakening era's writing bad habits. I'd say they are the closest to a truly "good" avatar. But Fatesawakening writing being what it is. Were left with somebody who can marry brain damaged Emmeryn and that's just.
No.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Nooooooo.
Don't.

Oh and act 3 Robin's show stealing was awfully written. But Act 1-2 Robin with like 2-3 different variations? Seems like it be pretty decent overall. (And if it must be kept. Hopefully F!Robin's awful support with Chrom will only be ascribed to one personality and not all of them.)

 

[lenticular]

I dislike avatar characters in general and I dislike Byleth in specific, but I mostly chalk that up as a "not for me" situation rather than an "objectively bad" situation. From what I've seen, it seems that most people who like that flavour of self-insert avatar seem to like Byleth. I know there are some people who generally like highly customisable avatars and feel that Byleth is lacking on that front, but I think that's a different thing. People have their own personal tastes and preferences, of course, but I don't think it's reasonable to criticise the game or the developers for not achieving something that was never the design intention. If the only question is whether Byleth succeeded as what they were supposed to be, then I'd have to say "yes". They're not to my tastes, but they were never meant to be.

4 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

As for gender. Byleth gets to decide classes! In a game that has homogenized all classes to being the same. In other words. Byleth isn't really deciding class, but appearance and whether they can get Darting blow.
(Or quick riposte but that's impractical without grinding.)

Access to Grappler is also meaningful. As is the ability to early recruit Sylvain. Not huge, but meaningful.

1 hour ago, DoomRPG said:

What I mean by Byleth being dumb.
Is that they do make mistakes. Incredibly stupid mistakes  Mistakes so incredibly stupid that I, someone completely uneducated and inexperienced with being a "flawless" messiah. Would recognize as objectively idiotic decisions.

The first big thing that comes to mind is the Edelgard cutscene right after the tutorial. Byleth would have died were it not Sothis. They would have perished because they decided to block an axe with their spinal cord.
They would have died, because they chose to block an axe. With their spine.
Then there's the mage in the SoTC temple. Byleth shows zero adaptability and instantly should've died the moment something new appeared. (I'm not against the shield spell 100%. Its dumb that its unmentioned nor show up in gameplay. But I don't find it offensive as an idea. If anything I'd love for it to become a gameplay thing.) My issue is that Byleth would've died from a fireball because they cannot figure out how to act when something new shows up.
Also as for using their time manipulation power to the best of their ability.
They give up the instant it fails to work once. This literally kills Jeralt.
Anyone whose willing to use unrestrained divine pulse will quickly figure out that it doesn't stop working when someone dies. (That be an amazing gameplay feature! And encourage you to use DP proactively rather than reactively.)

I disagree with this take as well. Going through thesee three instances in order:

It's hardly as if Byleth "decided" to block an axe with their spine. It wasn't a conscious decision. It was a reaction taken in the spur of the moment. Now, if you wanted to say that this makes them rash, I could see the argument. If you want to say that their battlefield instincts are poor, then that's fine. But a choice? An idiotic decision? Nah. I don't buy that at all. It's not as if they had time to think. they just acted. People do all sorts of wild things when they're forced to make instant reactions in life-threatening situations. Sometimes they turn out to be good, sometimes terrible, sometimes somewhere in between. But it never really says much about the intelligence or the character of the person involved.

And beyond that, I think part of the point of that scene is to contrast with Byleth as they are later on. One of the big reasons why Byleth is seen as such a brilliant strategist is that they are able to exist outside of time. They are able to actually stop and think instead of having to make split-second decisions and hope for the best. They are able to actually see exactly what the consequences of an action will be before the take the action. This is an astonishing advantage. Of course the version of Byleth who lacked this ability was less competent than the version who has that ability. As far as I can remember, all the praise for Byleth's tactical prowess is referring to the time after they have access to Divine Pulse. In their mercenary days, they were known for ferocity in battle, but not for leadership and tactical acumen.

As regards the cutscene in The Goddess's Rite of Rebirth, I'm not sure what you're saying here. In this case, Byleth does react appropriately to the situation. When the mage pulls the strange looking sword from teh chest, Byleth instantly runs forward and disarms them. When the mage throws a fireball, Byleth parries it with the Sword of the Creator. When the mage throws up a shield, Byleth cuts through it with the Sword. All of these actions were completely 100% successful. If anything, I'd say that this is an example of Byleth showing excellent combat instincts. I'm not sure why you think they "should" have died here. You'll have to explain yourself more fully, because I just don't get your point.

Then there's the thing with Jeralt's death. I've seen quite a few people who dislike the way this happened, but I've always thought it was fairly reasonable. To be clear about what happens, Byleth only gives up after Sothis tells them that it is hopeless. that is Sothis who is literally a goddess and who gave Byleth the powers over time in the first place. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Sothis understands more about the nature of time and fate in that universe than either Byleth or the player. If Sothis says that Jeralt's death was fate, then I don't have a problem accepting that it was fate.

A lot of people seem to dislike it because they dislike the concept of fate and think that either it shouldn't exist or that if it does, that everyone should struggle futilely against it. And I get that. I understand how it isn't to everyone's taste and I see why people find it thematically unappealing. But we have to remember that this is a world where dragons and magic and time travel are all things that canonically exist. Why wouldn't fate be a thing that exists in this universe? Why wouldn't Sothis, a goddess who has powers of time travel, understand fate and be able to recognise it? In which case, not trying futilely to alter fate is similar to not continuing to perform CPR on someone well past the point where it has any chance to succeed. I can certainly understand why someone might do that with a dead loved one, but I hardly think someone is an idiot if they actually listen to the paramedic telling them that they should stop.

If you want to say that it's not narratively satisfying, or that it creates segregation between game mechanics and story that shouldn't exist, then sure, I'd see your point. But I don't see it as evidence that Byleth is an idiot.

[joevar]

if only IS developer play DnD-style cRPG . or even watch some playthru of Divinity:OS they can have another idea how an avatar can be a compelling or even function as a character.

avatar can be both voiced and be silent. silent protag should mean they can say whatever they want to say in complex or meaningful way. if its voiced maybe dont give them shallow option, just make them talk how they might talk/think or limit their interaction so it wont become something people cant project themselves into. but byleth want to be in middle ground while taking the worst of both version and fails at both.

on the subject of non customizable byleth,  F*  N.Switch. the console cant render 3D in game cutscene without looking weird or choppy framerates. in case of game engine thats not suitable for that kind of interaction, it also falls back to the fault of the console being weaker in computational capability which render other game engine not a viable option for it.

maybe make it pseudo 3D or back to 2D rather than full 3D and failed at it. even some PS2 game can have better cutscene without over reliance on animated cutscene.

but he's popular? he's main character, with peculiar design where everyone wear uniform. but part2 gives everyone new outfit? yeah, but back with their class outfit when in battle unless its specific class but cant be called canon also due to how the game are designed and how people want to play. also the fact so many new player play 3H , + being the most recent game (most accessible) + and the game where more known streamer try it out also help.

even Roy who's one of most hated lord in FE forums (outside avatar lord) is extremely famous in polls. famous and quality not directly proportional anymore. notice some famous musician these days had garbage lyric and music? same

byleth design just fine tho, their unique class also looks interesting at least. its just mostly avatar characteristic in FE falls into: "tell, not show". many of their feat associated with will falls on deaf ear if its mostly 2nd-hand story.  also due to how the game cant progress without map battle what byleth capable of limited to animated cutscene (with some scenes feel disconnected with gameplay sometimes)

[Florete]

3 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

I really do want to  genuinely and unironically ask. You. Florete. If you'd prefer a genuine self insert. Or you actually like having these malignant plot tumors that hurt the stories and character of others. Because I'd be fine with the former personally, but FE hasn't had one yet.

You can't "genuinely and unironically" ask a question that has such an obviously biased premise. Try again.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

As for gender. Byleth gets to decide classes! In a game that has homogenized all classes to being the same. In other words. Byleth isn't really deciding class, but appearance and whether they can get Darting blow.
(Or quick riposte but that's impractical without grinding.)

The classes differ significantly when it comes to skills and movement, though. Also stuff like magic access and exclusive combat arts. So Teach is customizable, but (unlike previous Avatars) not much moreso than any other unit.

4 hours ago, Sasori said:

But I do think Byleth fails at two things. The first is that I don't really 'buy' Byleth's excuse for being a audience surrogate. Robin had Amnesia and Corrin was a disney prince(cess) so I can see why they would be completely ignorant about the world they live in. But I see no scenario in how Byleth would not know what a 'church of Seiros' is. He's a famed mercenary that traveled through the continent. Even a braindead zombie like Byleth must have seen a church at one time.

They could've fixed this so easily by making it so Jeralt traveled to a different continent to raise their child - maybe Albinea, or Morfis. The meeting with Alois and the Lords could still happen, supposing they're on a "field trip".

5 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

Other examples that are far more minor but exist.
2. Edelgard is an avatarsexual for literally no reason. Hubert and Ferdinand both make far more sense for her to have any romantic inclination for. If she has them. They are only expressed in paired endings (which. Well. Anything can happen in those. SoV anyone?)

I interpret Edelgard's ability to emotionally connect with Teach as the fact that they are something of an "authority figure" to her, whereas Hubert and Ferdinand, as subjects of the Empire, are "beneath" her. Even if she doesn't want to think of them that way, she can't expose her weakness to those who will see her as a ruler someday. Hubert is in a gray area, where Edelgard trusts him, but still isn't totally honest with him. Still, Teach was more or less in the "right place, right time" for a girl who was repressing her trauma.

[AnonymousSpeed]

6 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

I really do want to  genuinely and unironically ask. You. Florete. If you'd prefer a genuine self insert. Or you actually like having these malignant plot tumors that hurt the stories and character of others.

[DoomRPG]

14 hours ago, Florete said:

You can't "genuinely and unironically" ask a question that has such an obviously biased premise. Try again.

I'm? Sorry?

I guess its hard to express just how befuddled I am with text only.

[Barren]

My quick take on this one is that I do see where they could have done something more interesting with Byleth being more than a silent protagonist. Like they could have him/her verbally speak the line you chose. Kind of how Mass Effect or Assassin’s Creed has their character talk. Would have been nice if they weren’t a bunch of one liners.

Edelgard says at the beginning when you have her talk to Byleth that s/he has a strange aura about them. Which is how she is drawn to them. I’ll second what Shantae said about her being able to emotionally connect to Teach.

Dimitri just went through something that was pretty fucked up and it consumed him until he was able to finally settle score with El. However she had nothing to do with the Duscar Tradegy but was still an obstacle for him to overcome in order to unite Fodlan under the Kingdom’s banner. Rescuing Rhea was an afterthought.

Claude I wished had more of a starring role in his route. He felt like a passenger to me. Just along for the ride. Though his objective is clear and you know why he’s here. It just felt secondary. He’s also the most “protagonist” out of all the lords to me. Hopefully I’m making enough sense.

[Jotari]

Skimming, skimming, skimming annnnd, huh. Really? I don't think anyone else has brought it up yet. Well then lucky me.

Customization. Byleth is the less customizable character in the game since lack of class time makes building ranks very costly. Solution, you choose which weapon ranks Byleth has assets and flaws in. Want a mage Byleth, give them assets in reason and faith. Have no intention of ever making Byleth a cavalry unit? Flaw in riding. Byleth suddenly becomes the most customizable character in the game as you can tailor them to any class you might want them to go through. This is so incredibly an obvious way of utilizing Three Houses's system with an Avatar than I am shocked it wasn't part of the design from the very start.

In terms of plot, Three Houses has way more narrative issues than just Byleth. Only thing I'd really like changed there would be a shift from a mute protagonist to a "doesn't talk much but still literally has some dialogue" protagonist.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Jotari

[Barren]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Skimming, skimming, skimming annnnd, huh. Really? I don't think anyone else has brought it up yet. Well then lucky me.

Customization. Byleth is the less customizable character in the game since lack of class time makes building ranks very costly. Solution, you choose which weapon ranks Byleth has assets and flaws in. Want a mage Byleth, give them assets in reason and faith. Have no intention of ever making Byleth a cavalry unit? Flaw in riding. Byleth suddenly becomes the most customizable character in the game as you can tailor them to any class you might want them to go through. This is so incredibly an obvious way of utilizing Three Houses's system with an Avatar than I am shocked it wasn't part of the design from the very start.

In terms of plot, Three Houses has way more narrative issues than just Byleth. Only thing I'd really like changed there would be a shift from a mute protagonist to a "doesn't talk much but still literally has some dialogue" protagonist.

A Byleth with a set of boons and banes that you can chose form is a great idea! I would also add in changing Byleth’s growths based on their birthday that corresponds to the boons and banes of your choosing. Like a mage Byleth would have a +10% in magic and res but -5% in strength and defense for example.

[Florete]

3 hours ago, DoomRPG said:

I'm? Sorry?

I guess its hard to express just how befuddled I am with text only.

Imagine something you like a lot. Your favorite band, favorite food, whatever. Now imagine you bring it up to someone and they respond with, "I'm genuinely curious here, do you actually like that trash?" Is that really 'genuine?' Does it sound like they're trying to meet you where you're at?

I don't see Byleth as a "malignant plot tumor that hurts the stories and character of others," so how am I meant to answer your question?