Is it just me, or is anyone else dreading Sigurd becoming Alm 2.0?

[henrymidfields]

To this day, I've never understood why on earth Alm was made to be an invincible hero without the flaws to contrast Celica with character development to boot. If Celica was also another superwoman, then at least I'm glad there isn't the double standard, but she isn't. Celica may as well not be a protagonist, and worse, the whole contrasted pair theme gets botched (Zofia vs Rigel (or peace vs war) thematic dichotomy), which was the point in the original game. I'm dreading the possibility that Sigurd might end up becoming Alm 2.0 and be another invincible flawless hero, and go against the entire point of the first part of Genealogy/FE4.

It's something that I've been thinking about as the Nintendo DIrect approaches and the possibility of the FE4 remake surfaces.

Am I thinking stupid/paranoid? Quite likely. In fact I hope I'm proven wrong, but considering how IS seem allergic with writing flawed (or struggling) males heroes in more modern games (Dimitri finally being an exception (whether partial or in whole may be up to debate but still)), I'm not too optimistic with this. Anyone else have similar opinions?

Edited February 9, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Acacia Sgt]

I mean, he kinda already is, specially during the first half of Gen 1. It's only when Chapter 3 rolls around that things start spiraling out of his control, but even then he still soldiers on and still is unstoppable despite everything falling apart around him... which only makes his ultimately downfall just the more poignant. Specially since we can see it coming, not long before it happens. As it is, his perhaps only flaw was thinking the conspiracy against him stopped at Lombard and Reptor, and not suspect Arvis as well. As it is, he is never the direct cause when things go bad for him, at least in the sense of conscious action.

The only way he'd truly be a 100% invincible flawless hero is if he and his army recover quickly from the shock of Arvis' betrayal and kill him too, then are able to explain things to Azmur. But since I doubt they'd change THE structure of the game in that way (though personally I'd find an alternate non-canon Ending where Sigurd avoids tripping at the finish line would be neat, not gonna lie), I think we can rest assure that won't happen.

[Etrurian emperor]

Whatever he happens Sigurd eventually screws up and dies. So I'm not too worried. 

Though to some extend I think Sigurd will always going to be seen as exceptionally skilled as more development he gets. Sigurd about single handily taking over much of western Jugdral and him statwise being kind of a battle god do indicate he's truly special. And the more imposing Sigurd is the more Arvis and Seliph can negatively compare themselves against him. 

[Jotari]

Yeah, I've got to agree that Sigurd is already pretty much flawless. Yes, he is a bit naive, but that naivety isn't what gets him killed. He gets killed because he was playing against a stacked deck. The point of Sigurd is that he was the virtuous moral hero who did the good and noble thing at every turn, and he still got fucked over for it. He doesn't need a bunch of flaws to become a more well rounded character, the only thing he truly needs is a better developed relationship with Deirdre (let's see him learn more directly about the Lopt sect and her cursed blood from him, which as is is something we only see him find out about in an unlikely to achieve alternate scenario).

When it comes to Jugdral lords I'm far more worried about Seliph. Because, and it hurts me to say this, he's one of the worst lords in the series. The dude is just plain boring. I don't know what the best direction is to really go with him, there's a few that would thematically work, but what we did get is basically a blank wall talking to a blank wall. Gen II is great in Jugdral, but it's mostly great because of how well Gen I set it up to make the conflict meaningful. Seliph and Lewyn themselves really struggle in isolation, at least in my opinion.

[Etrurian emperor]

The best thing they can do with Seliph is zoom into his insecurities and give him a sensitive side. 

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The best thing they can do with Seliph is zoom into his insecurities and give him a sensitive side. 

The most they have to work with is actually the opposite, that he's a bit ignorant and over confident. Which I'm taking mainly from his one optional conversation with ghost Sigurd who tells him not to lose sight of why he's doing what he's doing, which is to save the people.

Meanwhile most of Levin's interactions involve Levin chewing him out for being too soft and not taking things seriously, but Levin is also a millenia old dragon who has a completely different out look on things, so I'm not entirely sure if he's even meant to be seen as the voice of reason or necessarily in the right. Like one of the principle things Levin chews out Seliph for is Seliph asking why they're fighting Thracia which...is actually just a genuinely good question, but Levin essentially criticizes Seliph for questioning him and dodges the question by saying it'll be obvious later...which it isn't.

And then the third image of Seliph we have is the Thracia (brief) version where he's depicted as pretty plainly as a faultless paragon to play into Leif's insecurities. But that one is almost certainly on purpose. Of course the fact that Leif's whole character is wrapped up in insecurities means it'd probably be a bit redundant to make it Seliph's character too. Granted you can have two very different characters that are defined by insecurity. Still, I think probably the best way to go for Seliph would be the Sigurd talk to remind Seliph to stay virtious. I don't exactly want Seliph to ever be depicted as less than noble in action, but when it comes down to things, what he is doing is basically trying to do exactly what Alvis did. Overthrow the reigning power and anyone who stands in his way, then divide the country up amongst his allies. So putting focus on the fact that he is doing it because life now is currently hell and not because he has mislead perception of his own capabilities. So yeah, I don't want to see him be like old Alm, but I want to see him have a bit of an ego. I guess somewhat like a cross between Marth and Edelgard (though unlike Edelgard he actually gets over himself by the end).

Edited February 9, 2022 by Jotari

[Asmont Osborne]

Honestly, Genealogy’s main mechanic being blood-specific really works in favor the idea of predestined, flawless heroes (ideally both for men and for women, but Sigurd is obviously a man). If today’s Direct is what’s worrying you, don’t forget that Eliwood and FE5 Leif (and to a lesser extent, FE9 Ike, Micaiah and Seliph) are possible lords for the next game, and I would hardly describe any of them as brave, flawless heroes.

[henrymidfields]

I think Seliph (FE4) and Leaf (FE5) are both having to deal with a constant uphill battle to regain what's lost, yes?

As for Sigurd, was his downfall more due to his enemies managing to work against him and exploit stuff that Sigurd didn't know about? I initially thought Sigurd also had the issue of heading into battle headfirst, but it looks more like the enemies being more proactive from Chapter 2-3.

[Acacia Sgt]

At the very least, after SoV, I wouldn't worry on a Genalogy Gen 2 remake being the Seliph and Lewyn power hour. They're bound to give even just a few of the permadeath-risk characters larger roles. Lief is almost a given to receive this treatment. Heck, I'd be disappointed if he and Seliph don't butt heads if slightly at the Thracia question.

3 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

As for Sigurd, was his downfall more due to his enemies managing to work against him and exploit stuff that Sigurd didn't know about? I initially thought Sigurd also had the issue of heading into battle headfirst, but it looks more like the enemies being more proactive from Chapter 2-3.

Pretty much. Sigurd is always reacting, not acting, as it were.

 

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Acacia Sgt said:

At the very least, after SoV, I wouldn't worry on a Genalogy Gen 2 remake being the Seliph and Lewyn power hour. They're bound to give even just a few of the permadeath-risk characters larger roles. Lief is almost a given to receive this treatment. Heck, I'd be disappointed if he and Seliph don't butt heads if slightly at the Thracia question.

Pretty much. Sigurd is always reacting, not acting, as it were.

 

Shannan and Leif seem tailor made to be Seliph's retreat squad. Seliph and Leif having some disagreements would also be good. Sigurd already kind of has a full party of plot relevant permadeath immune characters. There's Quan, Ethlyn, Finn (to a small extent), Deirdre and Levin with young Oifey as the non playable chaser. So all of those already present roles could be expanded. In addition I could see Lex and Azelle becomine the Mae and Boey style Greek Chorus given their relation to the villains of Part 1 and early joining time. Though Alec and Naoise are the very first characters to join and probably need the characterisation opportunity more than anyone else. Claude is another character who is of pretty big importance that could have more defined presence. Like he's an active Duke or Granvale, right? That he could be rendered so politically impotent in half a handful of lines kind of sucks.

[henrymidfields]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

At the very least, after SoV, I wouldn't worry on a Genalogy Gen 2 remake being the Seliph and Lewyn power hour. They're bound to give even just a few of the permadeath-risk characters larger roles. Lief is almost a given to receive this treatment. Heck, I'd be disappointed if he and Seliph don't butt heads if slightly at the Thracia question.

Pretty much. Sigurd is always reacting, not acting, as it were.

 

I know stories tend to have a trend of "villains act, heroes react" kind of thing. So maybe FE4 is meant to be a deconstruction of this?

Agreed that Lief and Seliph should have some political drama with Thracia. Read a bit of Thracia 776, but it didn't seem to discuss much.

[Acacia Sgt]

8 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

I know stories tend to have a trend of "villains act, heroes react" kind of thing. So maybe FE4 is meant to be a deconstruction of this?

At least on Gen 1, it's played straight.

Gen 2 is the one that goes the inverse, as it's mainly Seliph acting with the villains reacting trying to stop him.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

At least on Gen 1, it's played straight.

Gen 2 is the one that goes the inverse, as it's mainly Seliph acting with the villains reacting trying to stop him.

Well even that is still all a reaction to the stuff the villains have done in Gen 1. Like Seliph has been hunted his entire life as the child of a traitor raised by rebels. Even the first battle of chapter 6 is them coming after him, if I recall correctly. And then chapter 7 is him reacting to Leif being under attack. Yeah, I'd say villains act heroes react is played very straight in Jugdral. The Fire Emblem game that probably plays this the least straight would be Radiant Dawn, wherein Ike and co are the aggressors in part 3. The senators are definitely bad dudes doing bad things, but they're actually pretty passive as far as villains go. Spreading their power through more indirect means. Part 2 also very directly toys with the idea with the trouble Elincia is facing stemming very pointedly from the fact that she isn't reacting to the recent happenings in Daein. And even Part 4 kind of flips the idea with Ashera being someone who reacted to the chaos of war and are heroes being conceptually put with the "evil god" even though they are pretty uncomplicatedly depicted as being in the right. Part 1 is pretty straight though.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Jotari

[vanguard333]

I'm not worried about Sigurd becoming Alm 2.0; I'm concerned about his son becoming Alm 2.0.

I admit that I'm not an expert on Genealogy's plot, but my reading of it was that Sigurd is supposed to be a deconstruction of the FE lord archetype and Seliph is supposed to be a thoughtful reconstruction of the same archetype. Alm in Shadows of Valentia was that archetype played completely straight, completely blandly & generically, and with a large helping of Gary Stu sprinkled onto him. Either character becoming Alm 2.0 would ruin that, but especially Seliph since he's the reconstruction; if you deconstruct a trope or archetype with the intent to reconstruct it within the same story, and then you botch the reconstruction, well, you just end up with something broken.

[Seazas]

What are you talking about? Alm was always an invincible hero. It was a lopsided thing from Gaiden that Echoes kept to be faithful. He immediately becomes leader out of nowhere and gives the ragtatg Deliverance success never seen before, he finds far more powerful weapons and never loses a battle in the war despite barely having experience with the real world. The fact that Celica isn't required to beat Duma and only Alm can speaks volumes about the protag balance. Celica's great but Kaga always made her a supporting protagonist to Alm.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Seazas

[henrymidfields]

10 hours ago, Seazas said:

What are you talking about? Alm was always an invincible hero. It was a lopsided thing from Gaiden that Echoes kept to be faithful. He immediately becomes leader out of nowhere and gives the ragtatg Deliverance success never seen before, he finds far more powerful weapons and never loses a battle in the war despite barely having experience with the real world. The fact that Celica isn't required to beat Duma and only Alm can speaks volumes about the protag balance. Celica's great but Kaga always made her a supporting protagonist to Alm.

Yeah, okay, so it was like that in the first place. I was under the impression that they've changed Alm to be what he was in SoV. Still doesn't change how...very unthematic Alm was in contrast to how the Japanese trailer portrayed the two kingdom and the two gods as. In that case, I'd have to say that they've missed a great opportunity in finishing the job of "modernizing" the story and characters and transferring part of that narrative agency from Alm to Celica.

Edited February 15, 2022 by henrymidfields

[Seazas]

40 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Yeah, okay, so it was like that in the first place. I was under the impression that they've changed Alm to be what he was in SoV. Still doesn't change how...very unthematic Alm was in contrast to how the Japanese trailer portrayed the two kingdom and the two gods as. In that case, I'd have to say that they've missed a great opportunity in finishing the job of "modernizing" the story and characters and transferring part of that narrative agency from Alm to Celica.

Because a lot of the ideas about the protags and how they correlate to their kingdoms was nothing but headcanon. If Alm was supposed to be the worst of Duma and Rigel, why isn't Celica the worst of Mila and Zofia? Celica isn't lazy or self centered, she's peak Zofian.

They have no real reason to massively change anything, they didn't with the other ones. Celica is designed to be a supporting protagonist, a lot of her character rides on that. They're being faithful to Gaiden and Alm having tons of agency is a big part of the game. Hell, they still managed to give Celica a lot more agency than what she had in the original game. Celica actually has the plot birthmark too and her own prf weapon and abilities now. Those were things she never had in Gaiden, she got an expanded character and arc too. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Seazas

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, henrymidfields said:

Yeah, okay, so it was like that in the first place. I was under the impression that they've changed Alm to be what he was in SoV. Still doesn't change how...very unthematic Alm was in contrast to how the Japanese trailer portrayed the two kingdom and the two gods as. In that case, I'd have to say that they've missed a great opportunity in finishing the job of "modernizing" the story and characters and transferring part of that narrative agency from Alm to Celica.

Don't bother trying to discuss this with him. It won't go anywhere. Doesn't matter how much evidence you present, he'll ignore it all and stick to his own view of things.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Jotari

[Seazas]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Don't bother trying to discuss this with him. It won't go anywhere. Doesn't matter how much evidence you present, he'll ignore it all and stick to his own view of things.

Sure buddy, no amount of "evidence" will change the obvious fact that Alm and Celica never had a perfect balance and a lot of the ideas about the two were made up by the fanbase. The remake did not change him to become an invincible hero, that is undeniable. SOV was faithful to Gaiden. Gaiden actively rewarded Alm for the most basic things.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Seazas

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Sure buddy, no amount of "evidence" will change the obvious fact that Alm and Celica never had a perfect balance and a lot of the ideas about the two were made up by the fanbase. The remake did not change him to become an invincible hero, that is undeniable. SOV was faithful to Gaiden. Gaiden actively rewarded Alm for the most basic things.

What are you hoping to achieve by replying to me there?

[Seazas]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

What are you hoping to achieve by replying to me there?

What were you hoping to achieve by responding to another person about me? Since you're going to take shots at me for making any sort of point in a thread, of course I'm going to respond to you. The point I made was perfectly fair and you attempting to dismiss it and any sort of discussion is wack.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Seazas said:

What were you hoping to achieve by responding to another person about me? Since you're going to take shots at me for making any sort of point in a thread, of course I'm going to respond to you. The point I made was perfectly fair and you attempting to dismiss it and any sort of discussion is wack.

I was trying to tell people about how fruitless conversation with you on this matter is, and you're just proving my point by trying to start something. Alm's characterisation isn't even on topic for this thread, which is about characterisation in a hypothetical Jugdral remake. I don't want to see this thread derailed by getting into one of your borderline religious zealotry about defending Alm.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Jotari

[Seazas]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I was trying to tell people about how fruitless conversation with you on this matter is, and you're just proving my point by trying to start something. Alm's characterisation isn't even on topic for this thread, which is about characterisation in a hypothetical Jugdral remake. I don't want to see this thread derailed by getting into one of your borderline religious zealotry about Alm.

I'm only "starting something" because you're shit talking me, Jotari. I said nothing to you nor about you only for you to proceed to talk negative over a disagreement we had a while ago. It can be fruitful. I can and will make fine points, your evidence in whatever other discussion we had... something something Gaiden and SOV simply did not change my point of view. I read it myself and there were still plenty of room for the interpretation SOV goes with while still being faithful. Also, it not being on topic is just wrong.

A huge point of this title is an idea that Sigurd is an Alm and that the remake did something to Alm that runs the risk of it happening to Sigurd. Which I heavily disagree with and isn't representing about how things actually are. There's nothing derailed there when it's related to the topic and beliefs the original thread creator was posting. 

It still correlates to FE4 too. If there wasn't a massive change with Alm, there wouldn't be a massive change with Sigurd and his remake. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Seazas

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, Seazas said:

I'm only "starting something" because you're shit talking me, Jotari. I said nothing to you nor about you only for you to proceed to talk negative over a disagreement we had a while ago. It can be fruitful. I can and will make fine points, your evidence in whatever other discussion we had... something something Gaiden and SOV simply did not change my point of view. I read it myself and there were still plenty of room for the interpretation SOV goes with while still being faithful. Also, it not being on topic is just wrong.

A huge point of this title is an idea that Sigurd is an Alm and that the remake did something to Alm that runs the risk of it happening to Sigurd. Which I heavily disagree with and isn't representing about how things actually are. There's nothing derailed there when it's related to the topic and beliefs the original thread creator was posting. 

It still correlates to FE4 too. If there wasn't a massive change with Alm, there wouldn't be a massive change with Sigurd and his remake. 

You still don't get that my whole point is that I'm not trying to engage with you. I'm not shit talking you. I'm saying things as they are. It is fruitless discussion. Unless you've had some kind of personal epiphany about how to view things from other people's perspective recently, then things will go the same way. And the way you're replying now definitely suggests that's not the case. You're doing the same thing again. Listen to me and actual hear what I'm saying. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm not trying to fight with you, I'm not even trying to argue with you, because I know it's pointless, because I know debate with you is nonconstructive. What I'm trying to do is prevent this topic about Sigurd becoming entirely about your militaristic quest to convince the world nothing Alm changed about Alm despite the evidence. Now the OC can go down this lane and try to argue with you if they so choose, but I just wanted to give forewarning of the result. From here I'm going to take my own advice and simply not engage with you. Because I know it's pointless and you're not dissuading me from that perspective with these responses. You can make a predictable reply to this, and I won't respond. Take satisfaction in thinking of that as a win for you if you so choose.

[Seazas]

26 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You still don't get that my whole point is that I'm not trying to engage with you. I'm not shit talking you. I'm saying things as they are. It is fruitless discussion. Unless you've had some kind of personal epiphany about how to view things from other people's perspective recently, then things will go the same way. And the way you're replying now definitely suggests that's not the case. You're doing the same thing again. Listen to me and actual hear what I'm saying. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm not trying to fight with you, I'm not even trying to argue with you, because I know it's pointless, because I know debate with you is nonconstructive. What I'm trying to do is prevent this topic about Sigurd becoming entirely about your militaristic quest to convince the world nothing Alm changed about Alm despite the evidence. Now the OC can go down this lane and try to argue with you if they so choose, but I just wanted to give forewarning of the result. From here I'm going to take my own advice and simply not engage with you. Because I know it's pointless and you're not dissuading me from that perspective with these responses. You can make a predictable reply to this, and I won't respond. Take satisfaction in thinking of that as a win for you if you so choose.

You say that and how I'm wrong for firmly disagreeing with your point of view only to immediately try and reinforce your own personal claims that you're sticking to yourself, "nothing changed about Alm despite the evidence". You can't claim shit like that only to do a similar thing I'm supposedly doing. I also used things from the game yet just like me... you still stick to what you believe. Your evidence isn't any different, Alm blatantly has structure and ideas that shares far too many similarities with SOV.

There is no evidence that suggests Alm was never invincible and a not standard good-hearted hero. He directly says that he wants to help people and his views on Rudolf and the like is 1 for 1 with SOV. He literally ran off into war against his grandfathers wishes out of a desire to save Zofia and the innocent people in it since no one else will. That is standard heroism 101. Gaiden and the structure of the game for Alm is something that SOV did little to alter. Him apparently speaking a little differently didn't change that everything went Alm's way to a T and how he has a very similar view to things Echoes followed up on. Gaiden literally made up a birthmark so Alm could recruit the Camus archetype of the game, acting like a lot of the stuff SOV did with Alm not exist in any capacity in Gaiden is just not true.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Seazas