When do you think, or when would you want a Gen 9 game? - Update Gen 9 Announced! Pokemon Scarlet/Violet

[henrymidfields]

I know this is probably too early, but I ran into the same question in Bulbagarden, and it proved to be a bit of a burning question for me.

When do you think, or when would you want a Gen 9 game?

My answer as below:

Spoiler

 

I wouldn't mind if Gen 9 was 2023 or even later. With a 4-5 year cycle for the future unlike before. I think because, with games relying on 3D graphics and whatnot, I think video games are inherently becoming more labour-intensive (and time-consuming) to design and make.

• I know Final Fantasy had several mainline entries during the 90s and early 2000s, (we had III and IX in 90s, then X to I think XIII during 2000s, then only to XV for the last decade)but notice how their mainline entries become less frequent?
• Mario had, what? Mario World, Mario Kart, Yoshi's Island, and 64 versions of World and Kart for the 90s, then Double Dash, Sunshine, Galaxy and maybe New Bros DS for 00s. Last decade saw Galaxy 2, a couple of iterations for New Bros, Kart Wii, Kart 8, and the New Switch mainline. It might be worth noting that New Bros may have recycled assets, and Galaxy 2 almost certainly do. I also did not include re-ports.
• DKC had 1-3 on the SNES, then 64, then a couple of spinoffs in the 00s, and the Returns duology for the last decade.

Might explain the relatively small content for XY, or the mess when SwSh transitioned into the Switch. Either GF should hire more people with the programming side of things, or allocate an extra year or two. Granted, there's probably a lot of talk needed between GF, Nintendo, TV Tokyo, and TPCI etc as the game schedule relies on other stuff like the anime, manga, merches etc. But a talk is definitely warranted, I think. The merch may bring in the cash, but GF would still call the shots in when the new Pokemon be revealed.

Looking back, I'm actually kind of amazed that the quality for Pokemon's mainline games have been more or less consistent until this Gen despite the higher pace of releases compared to a lot of other franchises. Or at least it feels like it. Maybe relying on sprites have helped for the first five generations? Mario also churns a lot of admittedly consistent quality games (even though I dislike that franchise), but that one's had some content recycled between games and not being as story-heavy probably helped as well. And look what happened with Sonic - we all thought it and Sega was here to stay during the 90s, and look what happened during the 00s. Even Final Fantasy had some arguable misses like VIII (I'm personally am okay with it, but I heard it has been controversial.), XIII and the old XIV. And as a semi-regular player of Fire Emblem, there's no question that there were ups and downs in quality for that series too.

 

 

[Use the Falchion]

I wouldn't mind 2023 or later either, but it really depends on how they want to factor in things like Let's Go, Legends, and future remakes.

[Lord_Brand]

I'm ready for Gen 9 anytime. I only ask that they learn from their mistakes and oversights on SWSH and BDSP.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

They could wait to release another at November 2023 and still keep to the schedule of one a year. So I'm thinking that's the absolute latest we'll see the next game. My expectation is that the next one will be a contemporary Gen 9. No Pokemon Go style catching, no Pokemon Legends open world, no Wild Area. Some new one and done gimmick because that's the design philosophy that ensures no individual generation invalidates another. No national dex is another crucial part of that. There is some expectation online that ILCA will continue as the "second studio", but looking at ILCA's contract work history, it was probably a one time deal. In case Pokemon Legends is a flop, you need the "normal" pokemon game to make up for it. Plus there's got to be some fallout from their game's poor Metacritic score and technical quality - even if it did still manage pokemon scale sales figures. 

[henrymidfields]

35 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

In case Pokemon Legends is a flop, you need the "normal" pokemon game to make up for it. Plus there's got to be some fallout from their game's poor Metacritic score and technical quality - even if it did still manage pokemon scale sales figures. 

Wait, they actually got something like below 7-6 on the critic's ratings? I've expected something like this on a spinoff, but for a (semi-)mainline? That's news!

[Lord_Brand]

Since when do we care what professional critics say? I'd sooner judge the game's quality by YouTubers like Arlo. 6.5 million on the first week is no flop. At any rate, the game changed enough about the formula that it got people interested. With sales numbers like that, I'll be very surprised if a future Legends title isn't in development as we speak.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Just to be clear, the metacritic score I was referring to was Brilliant Diamond's. It has a critical score of 73, which is far below the 80-87 of every (and I mean every) Pokemon mainline game from Ruby to Legends. Metacritic doesn't have aggregation for very many games from the twentieth century, since reviews with scores at the end were so uncommon and the review formats so less professional. Plus Metacritic itself didn't exist back then, and 98% of reviews were published on physical media that probably wasn't backed up and preserved somewhere online. 

Pokemon Legends, for the record, has an 84, smack dab in the middle of that 80-87 range. Gamers may not always care about a metacritic rating, but publishers absolutely care about accolades they can brag about. Developers get fired and lose bonuses over this crap. ...Yeesh, Pokemon Legends scored as high as New Vegas. Sure, Legends is the most fun I've had in a new pokemon game in the last 10-15 years, but New Vegas has it beat in every conceivable metric. Even its graphics and controls which were not great by the standards of 2011. 

[Lord_Brand]

23 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Developers get fired and lose bonuses over this crap.

Oh, that is just scummy. My hatred for Bethesda just shot way up. Not that I was a particularly avid fan of their games to begin with, but crap like this does nothing to encourage me to support their business. Which makes it all too appropriate that they ended up part of Microsoft, I suppose.

Anyway, apologies for my misunderstanding. BDSP getting a lower score, I can understand. Really a pity, Gen IV was one of my favorites...despite the fact I stopped playing the series myself after Gen III. My bro still plays though, and I've kept up with the games, even spent time designing Pokemon of my own. I just haven't found the time to sit down and play through the dang things. Is it weird to be technically a fan of a game series you haven't played in 18 years?

Edited February 12, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Zapp Branniglenn]

51 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Oh, that is just scummy. My hatred for Bethesda just shot way up. Not that I was a particularly avid fan of their games to begin with, but crap like this does nothing to encourage me to support their business. Which makes it all too appropriate that they ended up part of Microsoft, I suppose.

Appropriate, in the sense that Microsoft can get them to shape up? You don't have to look far to dredge up bad controversies with Bethesda, or men like Todd Howard and Pete Hines, but Microsoft doesn't do that sort of thing. I wouldn't go so far as to call them altruistic, businesses by definition can't afford to be. But I can imagine them conferencing about gross work cultures of studios they swallow up just to say "This. This right here is where you guys are losing money. They hate you out there. Under this house, we consider People with a Conscience a core demographic. If you can't deliver, you're going to sit here and keep working however many years it takes until they do trust you again". Last year's Psychonauts 2 is the perfect example. I didn't hear a single good thing about that game when it was announced on a sketchy crowd sourcing platform. But at some point after I was deliberately avoiding heartbreaking news about it, Microsoft buys Double Fine and gets them to release not just any game, but one worthy of being a sequel to Psychonauts. This doesn't just happen spontaneously in this industry.

[Lord_Brand]

Too bad about Rare though, eh?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

21 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Too bad about Rare though, eh?

I don't know how much you know about that situation in order to respond to that. I'm sorry about Dinosaur Planet. Nintendo was just awful to western developers before Reggie and Iwata. 

[lenticular]

4 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Metacritic doesn't have aggregation for very many games from the twentieth century, since reviews with scores at the end were so uncommon and the review formats so less professional. Plus Metacritic itself didn't exist back then, and 98% of reviews were published on physical media that probably wasn't backed up and preserved somewhere online. 

I'm not sure what gaming reviews you were reading in the twentieth century, but the ones that I read pretty much all had numerical rankings at the end. I'd say it's more common to see a review without a score now than it was then, honestly. I'm also not sure why you think reviews back then were less professional than they are now. The barrier to entry to print a magazine was much higher than the barrier to entry to put up a website is now, so there was a degree of professionalism baked in. Magazines also didn't have as much incentive towards click bait and sensationalism that modern websites have. By the time someone was reading a review in a magazine, they'd typically already bought it, so there wasn't really a need to be as attention grabbing. Not that there wasn't some garbage journalism back then and not that there isn't some great journalism now, but overall, I just don't see how the level of professionalism has increased.

Anyway, back on topic, this is a bit of a cop out answer, but I want Gen 9 to be released when it's ready. Which is to say, I want the game to follow it's own schedule and be given the time that it needs to make it the best it can possibly be. I don't want for there to be a strict deadline based on the needs of the anime, merchandising and marketing, and the game to be released regardless of whether it's done. If that means we don't see a single new Pokémon game until 2028, then so be it. I'm down with that. I'm happy to wait if it means the game is good.

People often like to point to a disconnect between game quality and sales figures, and to some extent, that's true. But I generally think that if a game puts out a bad entry, it's more likely to hurt the sales of future games in the series than to hurt its own sales. A lot of people purchase on the strength of the brand, rather than on the strength of reviews. Oh, hey, it's a new Pokémon game. I always enjoy Pokémon games so I'll buy it. If you start putting out multiple substandard titles, then that gradually erodes the value of the brand. People start to remember the bad entries rather than the good ones, so they start being less eager to buy new ones. If people bought SwSh and BDSP but then didn't enjoy them, that might not show up in sales figures until gen 9.

That's pretty much where I am right now. I bough Shield and I bought Shining Pearl and I didn't care for either of them. Which is why I want them to really take their time on Gen 9 and produce something great. Because if it feels like they're just churning out yet another mediocre title, then I'll probably not bother.

[Lord_Brand]

11 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I don't know how much you know about that situation in order to respond to that. I'm sorry about Dinosaur Planet. Nintendo was just awful to western developers before Reggie and Iwata. 

I know that Nintendo had 49% of the stock and sold it off to Microsoft after the Stamper Brothers sold their 51% (a pity Nintendo didn't buy it themselves). And once Microsoft had Rare, they promptly squandered it and were right arses to work for, leading to many of the staff quitting (including Chris Seavor).

I'm not actually that broken up about Dinosaur Planet. I like Starfox Adventures and I'm happy to have Krystal as part of the Star Fox series. Better that than waiting 20 years for Microsoft to make a sequel to Dinosaur Planet. Better that than Krystal belonging to Microsoft.

Anyway, we're getting off topic. I'm with lenticular on this one. Let Gen 9 release when it's good and ready.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

57 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

I'm not actually that broken up about Dinosaur Planet. I like Starfox Adventures and I'm happy to have Krystal as part of the Star Fox series. Better that than waiting 20 years for Microsoft to make a sequel to Dinosaur Planet. Better that than Krystal belonging to Microsoft.

Yes. You always come down on the side opposite what developers want don't you? Products over People.

[henrymidfields]

So here's the trailer of the new game!

 

[Lord_Brand]

Gen IX came a lot sooner than I expected.

[vanguard333]

10 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Gen IX came a lot sooner than I expected.

Three years after gen 8; sounds about right, as that's the usual amount of years between Pokémon generations. The reason it seems early is because we just got Legends: Arceus.

[Lord_Brand]

Really? Let's see...

• I: Red and Green/Blue (1996/1998)
• II: Gold and Silver (1999/2000)
• III: Ruby and Sapphire (2002/2003)
• IV: Diamond and Pearl (2006/2007)
• V: Black and White (2010/2011)
• VI: X and Y (2013)
• VII: Sun and Moon (2016)
• VIII: Sword and Shield (2019)
• IX: Scarlet and Violet (2022)

Huh. 2-4 years. Hmm...so Gen X should hit in 2026 at the latest? For some reason, some Generations feel like they took forever to get here. The waits between III, IV, and V were the longest, at 4 years, while the shortest (for overseas) were between Gens I-II and V-VI at a mere 2 years.

[vanguard333]

3 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

Really? Let's see...

• I: Red and Green/Blue (1996/1998)
• II: Gold and Silver (1999/2000)
• III: Ruby and Sapphire (2002/2003)
• IV: Diamond and Pearl (2006/2007)
• V: Black and White (2010/2011)
• VI: X and Y (2013)
• VII: Sun and Moon (2016)
• VIII: Sword and Shield (2019)
• IX: Scarlet and Violet (2022)

Huh. 2-4 years. Hmm...so Gen X should hit in 2026 at the latest? For some reason, some Generations feel like they took forever to get here. The waits between III, IV, and V were the longest, at 4 years, while the shortest (for overseas) were between Gens I-II and V-VI at a mere 2 years.

Indeed. I still maintain that, for going from 3DS to Switch, they probably should've gone back to four years given just how rushed Sword & Shield comes across as being. I don't know why it was four years in the DS era only for it to go down to 3 years in the 3DS era and stay at 3 years even when transferring to a home console for the first time for the mainline games in the series.

[Lord_Brand]

28 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Indeed. I still maintain that, for going from 3DS to Switch, they probably should've gone back to four years given just how rushed Sword & Shield comes across as being. I don't know why it was four years in the DS era only for it to go down to 3 years in the 3DS era and stay at 3 years even when transferring to a home console for the first time for the mainline games in the series.

I can't be certain, but looking at what other titles were released during each generation, I might be able to offer a theory. Gen III introduced the first remakes with FRLG in 2004, followed by Emerald in 2004/2005. Gen IV followed DP with Platinum in 2008/2009,  then the long-awaited HGSS in 2009/2010. Gen V in contrast was rather sparse, with only B2W2 in 2012. The anticipated RS remakes wouldn't hit until 2014, after which the series went a whole year without any new mainline releases, which hadn't happened since 2002. And of course that's all without taking into account the release window for the dozens of spinoff games

Evidently, a lot of it comes down to development and release schedules. There's also the fact that, for X and Y, they had to spend extra time developing the 3D models and animations.

[henrymidfields]

To be honest, I'm not too sure whether I should be hyped about seeing a Spanish region of Pokemon, or whether I should be worried that they repeat the rushed development debalce of Sw/Sh...