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Ok, so i'm stupid and haven't played this game but i'm doing a script on top 10 overpowered characters and would love to hear about everything that makes Seth so powerful...

I have heard the following about how good he is

" so good that top-efficiency run Tier Lists base the placement of all other characters on what they can actually do to support Seth, or whatever minor thing they can chime in."

So in as much detail can you explain his power level since I haven't played his game and would love to hear more about him

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Essentially, Seth has perfect availability, is in a good class and has absurd bases. On top of this, his growths are very high. He can eventually be surpassed, but not for a very long time-And he's good enough to ORKO for most of the game-I'd say until about Chapter 17-18, he can do it fairly easily? Really, I would just advise looking at gameplay of Sacred Stones if you can't play it for yourself. It speaks for itself about how good Seth is.

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1 hour ago, Benice said:

Essentially, Seth has perfect availability, is in a good class and has absurd bases. On top of this, his growths are very high. He can eventually be surpassed, but not for a very long time-And he's good enough to ORKO for most of the game-I'd say until about Chapter 17-18, he can do it fairly easily? Really, I would just advise looking at gameplay of Sacred Stones if you can't play it for yourself. It speaks for itself about how good Seth is.

Can't exactly say I got time to look up a playthrough, i apologize, but can you be a bit more detailed?

What units would surpass him?

How good are his growths in comparison to other units?

What units can rival him?

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1 minute ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

What units would surpass him?

I'm not good at FE, so other people could explain better, but...

(Spoilers for FE8's story events, kinda)

1. Franz:

Franz joins just one chapter after Seth as a cavalier and is one of the best units in the game due to his high movement, availability and offensive prowess. His growths are across the board quite good, and his bases are fine, so it's really easy to train him up. He also gets the benefit of being able to early-promote as soon as the start of chapter 8. For the record, as a 10/1 Paladin, (which would require a fair bit of feeding to get by chapter eight) Franz has, on average:

-1 HP, -2 or 3 strength, -3 skill, -8 luck, -1 def, -4 res and equal speed compared to level 1 Seth.

However, if left to promote later on, things stack up a little better for Franz- A later-promoted Franz is significantly faster than Seth, and their strength will become more-or-less equivocal. Franz has very competent combat and will often be one of the best units on the team.

However, comparing a maximum-level Paladin Franz to a maximum level Seth, you will see that they are still very comparable, with Franz requiring much more effort to get to that point, while Seth really doesn't need maximum level and will do quite well without any investment at all. This also would assume that Franz could get to level 20/20, which is not particularly logical even in a casual run that doesn't use Seth. (I don't know how hard it is for Seth to reach his level cap) That being said, if Franz is used a lot and Seth is used more sparingly to accomodate for Franz's exp gains, Franz will reach his peak. Franz' peak is greater than Seth's in this sense.

2. Cormag:

I don't watch LTC or draft runs very often and I think this unit depends a fair bit on the route that is chosen by the player, but Cormag the Wyvern Rider is another absurd unit. He joins almost ready to promote in Ephraim's chapter 10 or ready to promote with slightly better stats on Eirika's chapter 13, in both cases carrying the item he needs to promote. His speed can be a little spotty at first, but everything else about Cormag is sublime. Flier movement and mobility, high defensive bases and growths, excellent strength and decent speed that has a good growth. Furthermore, Wyvern Rider's promotion bonuses are very good regardless of class. Wyvern Knight provides pierce (which only really is helpful against the final boss), a staggering +3 to speed that darn near fixes all of Cormag's speed issues, amongst other fairly strong boosts to Cormag's important stats aside from defense, which will be quite good regardless. Wyvern Lord gives Cormag access to swords and provides one more point of strength as well as a large bonus to defense, but offers no speed. I believe Wyvern Knight is often considered to be better for optimal because of the boost to speed and Cormag's strength already being bonkers.

So, as a tl;dr to that mess, Cormag joins midway through the game in the best class, good stats and near promotion. From the moment he joins, he will be an asset to your team and he can surpass Seth in every way. However, he's not there in the earlygame and his usefulness is much more limited in Eirika's route; Eirika route speedruns don't pick up Cormag at all, even. I don't believe LTCs do either.

3. Vanessa:

A unit I've never had much luck with, Vanessa the peg knight joins in chapter 2. She has not-very-good bases, but you could theoretically dump all your stat-boosters onto her in efficient play. She can promote near the end of chapter 8, (Though this does require some babying) and from there, she is going into Wyvern Knight, no questions asked. With that, she'll have pretty much anything needed to deal with large groups of enemies for most of the game, even if her strength is still on the lower end. Not near as powerful as Cormag or Seth, but she also doesn't need to be recruited and joins much earlier. She's valuable more for utility than combat, but she still has OK combat with investment. She's better on Eirika's route in efficient play, since Cormag isn't a thing there generally.

4-ish: Ephraim

Eph is an infantry unit with excellent stats when he joins, and then becomes a cavalry unit with even better stats and an overpowered weapon after chapter 16. I don't fully understand why Ephraim is considered to be one of the strongest units in the game, but he's certainly not bad and will OHKO most things with his prf.

 

Aside from that, I can't really think of anyone who even comes particularly close to Seth. Saleh is very good but joins late, and Duessel's in a bad class, and because of Seth's usefulness from beginning to end, none of the units I highlighted are ever that much better. In a speedrun context, perhaps, but in more standard but efficient play, Seth is broken.

57 minutes ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

How good are his growths in comparison to other units?

yTmEOqH.png

Discounting the one dragon unit, Seth has

-Tied for best HP growth in the game

-4th best strength growth in the game

-3rd best defense growth in the game, and the two units with higher defense are both in terrible classes.

-A speed growth that is just above average

This is on a unit who joins in the prologue with bases that are higher than those of the last unit who joins in the game.

 

Also, I do apologize if I am being curt here, but I'm not sure that you should include FE8 on your "broken units" list if you haven't been able to play the game for yourself, or at least know it well. At the very least, I would recommend reaching out to somebody who is really experienced and skilled in FE, such as @OriginalRaisins , as he could more properly explain Seth to you.

...Plus, everyone knows Seth's going to be on there, so it'd be a more interesting list with his omission.

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4 minutes ago, Benice said:

I'm not good at FE, so other people could explain better, but...

(Spoilers for FE8's story events, kinda)

1. Franz:

Franz joins just one chapter after Seth as a cavalier and is one of the best units in the game due to his high movement, availability and offensive prowess. His growths are across the board quite good, and his bases are fine, so it's really easy to train him up. He also gets the benefit of being able to early-promote as soon as the start of chapter 8. For the record, as a 10/1 Paladin, (which would require a fair bit of feeding to get by chapter eight) Franz has, on average:

-1 HP, -2 or 3 strength, -3 skill, -8 luck, -1 def, -4 res and equal speed compared to level 1 Seth.

However, if left to promote later on, things stack up a little better for Franz- A later-promoted Franz is significantly faster than Seth, and their strength will become more-or-less equivocal. Franz has very competent combat and will often be one of the best units on the team.

However, comparing a maximum-level Paladin Franz to a maximum level Seth, you will see that they are still very comparable, with Franz requiring much more effort to get to that point, while Seth really doesn't need maximum level and will do quite well without any investment at all. This also would assume that Franz could get to level 20/20, which is not particularly logical even in a casual run that doesn't use Seth. (I don't know how hard it is for Seth to reach his level cap) That being said, if Franz is used a lot and Seth is used more sparingly to accomodate for Franz's exp gains, Franz will reach his peak. Franz' peak is greater than Seth's in this sense.

2. Cormag:

I don't watch LTC or draft runs very often and I think this unit depends a fair bit on the route that is chosen by the player, but Cormag the Wyvern Rider is another absurd unit. He joins almost ready to promote in Ephraim's chapter 10 or ready to promote with slightly better stats on Eirika's chapter 13, in both cases carrying the item he needs to promote. His speed can be a little spotty at first, but everything else about Cormag is sublime. Flier movement and mobility, high defensive bases and growths, excellent strength and decent speed that has a good growth. Furthermore, Wyvern Rider's promotion bonuses are very good regardless of class. Wyvern Knight provides pierce (which only really is helpful against the final boss), a staggering +3 to speed that darn near fixes all of Cormag's speed issues, amongst other fairly strong boosts to Cormag's important stats aside from defense, which will be quite good regardless. Wyvern Lord gives Cormag access to swords and provides one more point of strength as well as a large bonus to defense, but offers no speed. I believe Wyvern Knight is often considered to be better for optimal because of the boost to speed and Cormag's strength already being bonkers.

So, as a tl;dr to that mess, Cormag joins midway through the game in the best class, good stats and near promotion. From the moment he joins, he will be an asset to your team and he can surpass Seth in every way. However, he's not there in the earlygame and his usefulness is much more limited in Eirika's route; Eirika route speedruns don't pick up Cormag at all, even. I don't believe LTCs do either.

3. Vanessa:

A unit I've never had much luck with, Vanessa the peg knight joins in chapter 2. She has not-very-good bases, but you could theoretically dump all your stat-boosters onto her in efficient play. She can promote near the end of chapter 8, (Though this does require some babying) and from there, she is going into Wyvern Knight, no questions asked. With that, she'll have pretty much anything needed to deal with large groups of enemies for most of the game, even if her strength is still on the lower end. Not near as powerful as Cormag or Seth, but she also doesn't need to be recruited and joins much earlier. She's valuable more for utility than combat, but she still has OK combat with investment. She's better on Eirika's route in efficient play, since Cormag isn't a thing there generally.

4-ish: Ephraim

Eph is an infantry unit with excellent stats when he joins, and then becomes a cavalry unit with even better stats and an overpowered weapon after chapter 16. I don't fully understand why Ephraim is considered to be one of the strongest units in the game, but he's certainly not bad and will OHKO most things with his prf.

 

Aside from that, I can't really think of anyone who even comes particularly close to Seth. Saleh is very good but joins late, and Duessel's in a bad class, and because of Seth's usefulness from beginning to end, none of the units I highlighted are ever that much better. In a speedrun context, perhaps, but in more standard but efficient play, Seth is broken.

yTmEOqH.png

Discounting the one dragon unit, Seth has

-Tied for best HP growth in the game

-4th best strength growth in the game

-3rd best defense growth in the game, and the two units with higher defense are both in terrible classes.

-A speed growth that is just above average

This is on a unit who joins in the prologue with bases that are higher than those of the last unit who joins in the game.

 

Also, I do apologize if I am being curt here, but I'm not sure that you should include FE8 on your "broken units" list if you haven't been able to play the game for yourself, or at least know it well. At the very least, I would recommend reaching out to somebody who is really experienced and skilled in FE, such as @OriginalRaisins , as he could more properly explain Seth to you.

...Plus, everyone knows Seth's going to be on there, so it'd be a more interesting list with his omission.

Well if you know any other units that are downright busted, who do you recommend I pick?

I know Ryoma, Titania, Haar, Marth (NES), Ares, Sigurd and Pent, any other ones?

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I think the best goto example of how busted Seth is is to look at his stats compared to Syrene.

Bases

Name Lv Class HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mov Con
Seth 1 Paladin 30 14 13 12 13 11 8 8 11
Syrene 1 Falc   27 12 13 15 12 10 12 8 7

20/20

Name HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Con Mov
Seth 47.1 23.5   21.55 20.55 17.75 18.6 13.7 11 8
Syrene 40.3 19.6   22.5 26.4 17.7 13.8 21.5 7 8

Seth doesn't just beat Syrene in HP, Str and Def, he trounces her. The only stat she has over him is speed, which is a useful stat, but it has diminishing returns, as you can either double, or you can't, and Seth's speed is good enough to double basically everyone. Seth having four extra points of Con also means he'll only trail behind Syrene in two points of speed when wielding heavier weapons. He also has a slightly higher growth rate total than Syrene (though a lot of that is in HP). He doesn't have the best growths in the game, but they are by no means bad and in his most key categories, are, in fact, very good.

Now what makes this particular unit comparison important. Seth is the first unit in the game you get, Syrene is the last. In other words, Seth is better than an average end game unit when you get at the very start of the game. He's like the equivalent of playing New Game+ in other games, starting a playthrough with all your end game stuff that just trivializes the early game. If you add up all the (growable) base stats of the units in the game, the only units that start the game with more stat totals than Seth are Duessel, Saleh and Innes, all late game prepromotes (and Innes is significantly hindered by only using bows).  Duessel is still pretty busted too, but Seth's stat spread probably still makes him better. In other words, Seth is amoung the best units in the game, not relative to when you are allowed to use him, just plain in general, he's the best unit in the game. If you got him in the last few chapters, he wouldn't be great, but he would be decent. An yet despite that absurd power they just give him to you in the very first chapter, free to storm the entire first half of the game and then contribute as well as anyone else in the second half. The only unit even close to Seth's level of absurdity is Ephraim who likewise starts off broken and only continues to grow more broken (though being infantry locked until a late game plot relevant promotion probably makes Seth even better than Ephraim).

Edited by Jotari
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9 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

Well if you know any other units that are downright busted, who do you recommend I pick?

Depends on what you define as "good", and in what context. Different units are better or worse in different contexts and there are lots of ways to define a unit a good, , so it depends on what you personally think makes a good unit.

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The comparison to Syrene is really telling.

None of the prepromotes in the game can be said to have better base stats then Seth, except maybe Duessel.
But not only is Seth around for much longer then they are and has time to grow stronger, he also has higher growths then they are. It's really weird.

Better growths then Franz too, btw. So it's not like his growths are merely high by the standards of prepromotes. He likely has the best growths in the game besides Myrrh.

Edited by BrightBow
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8 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

The comparison to Syrene is really telling.

None of the prepromotes in the game can be said to have better base stats then Seth, except maybe Duessel.
But not only is Seth around for much longer then they are and has time to grow stronger, he also has higher growths then they are. It's really weird.

Better growths then Franz too, btw. So it's not like his growths are merely high by the standards of prepromotes. He likely has the best growths in the game besides Myrrh.

I've taken a look at total growth values, and you're right. Seth does just plain have some of the best growths in the game. Myrrh obviously beats him (by a lot, but that's the point of Manaketes). So does Tethys (which, eh, sort of shows how it's not good to just add growth numbers, as she just stacks everything into spd, lck and res). The only proper competitors he has for growths are Eirika and Ephraim...Yes, Seth has better growths than all of the trainee units, which might say more about their quality than his. What the flying flip! The trainee units literally have the worst growth totals in the game (well Ewan has 5% on Moulder >.>). 

Growths aren't nearly as important as bases, but it does just kind of further show Seth's domination. He has some of the best bases in the game and some of the best growths. Really the only thing he's missing is the ability to fly.

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To be fair, the trainees have bad growths because they gain 9 more levels than most units. If they didn't have bad growths they'd be absurd once caught up. (To be clear, I don't think they're very good units, but I understand the logic of giving them weaker growths.)

Anyway others have already covered why Seth is great. I'll also mention that Sacred Stones has relatively few practical supports, but one of the few that absolutely is is Eirika/Seth, especially on Eirika's route, and it gives some fat bonuses (full atk, full def, full res, half everything else) which can help push Seth further ahead of his competition statistically. The only place he's remotely shaky is speed, and that really only comes up in Last Hope, i.e. the third-to-last map (plus the dogs in the final chapter, but whatever, Seth can one-shot them with a sacred weapon or brave if you want).

11 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I know Ryoma, Titania, Haar, Marth (NES), Ares, Sigurd and Pent, any other ones?

Palla (New Mystery) flies and has great bases; Marcus (Blazing Blade) isn't as good as Titania/Seth but still good for the same reasons; Robin (Awakening) has accelerated level gain and can access all of Awakening's cheesy classes; Camilla (Fates) is a monster prepromo in a great class with great stats; Edelgard (3H) arguably has the best combat throughout the entire game on her own route, absurdly so once she gets Raging Storm. Also, some dancers are extraordinarily good for efficiency, especially ones who can refresh 4 units at once.

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11 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

Well if you know any other units that are downright busted, who do you recommend I pick?

I know Ryoma, Titania, Haar, Marth (NES), Ares, Sigurd and Pent, any other ones?

You might be interested in a thread from a month or two ago about the best unit in the series. Though, given how many different units get mentioned there, I think it shows quite clearly that there isn't any single objective standard for what makes a unit "best", so any list of the most overpowered units in Fire Emblem is going to have a good amount of subjectivity and personal opinion.

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1 hour ago, Benice said:

Depends on what you define as "good", and in what context. Different units are better or worse in different contexts and there are lots of ways to define a unit a good, , so it depends on what you personally think makes a good unit.

I want a unit that's consistently seen as top tier and for good reason.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I've taken a look at total growth values, and you're right. Seth does just plain have some of the best growths in the game. Myrrh obviously beats him (by a lot, but that's the point of Manaketes). So does Tethys (which, eh, sort of shows how it's not good to just add growth numbers, as she just stacks everything into spd, lck and res). The only proper competitors he has for growths are Eirika and Ephraim...Yes, Seth has better growths than all of the trainee units, which might say more about their quality than his. What the flying flip! The trainee units literally have the worst growth totals in the game (well Ewan has 5% on Moulder >.>). 

Growths aren't nearly as important as bases, but it does just kind of further show Seth's domination. He has some of the best bases in the game and some of the best growths. Really the only thing he's missing is the ability to fly.

DAMN, this might be good to mention, thanks

 

34 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Palla (New Mystery) flies and has great bases; Marcus (Blazing Blade) isn't as good as Titania/Seth but still good for the same reasons; Robin (Awakening) has accelerated level gain and can access all of Awakening's cheesy classes; Camilla (Fates) is a monster prepromo in a great class with great stats; Edelgard (3H) arguably has the best combat throughout the entire game on her own route, absurdly so once she gets Raging Storm. Also, some dancers are extraordinarily good for efficiency, especially ones who can refresh 4 units at once.

I wanna try to not mention Lord character's unless it's absolutely possible, but I'd also like to ask if any of the units I mentioned are comparable to these units?

24 minutes ago, lenticular said:

You might be interested in a thread from a month or two ago about the best unit in the series. Though, given how many different units get mentioned there, I think it shows quite clearly that there isn't any single objective standard for what makes a unit "best", so any list of the most overpowered units in Fire Emblem is going to have a good amount of subjectivity and personal opinion.

It isn't an overpowered units in Fire Emblem list, but rather a list of characters that are overpowered in general (Playable obviously), stuff like Meta Knight and Sturm from Advance wars for example.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

To be fair, the trainees have bad growths because they gain 9 more levels than most units. If they didn't have bad growths they'd be absurd once caught up. (To be clear, I don't think they're very good units, but I understand the logic of giving them weaker growths.)

I did consider that (and the extra promotion gains help too), but honestly I don't think it'd hurt to give them more growths all round. Like they are considered pretty bad units as is. Their bases are low enough that to the extent that those extra nine levels basically put them at par with most other characters that join early. They shouldn't have the highest growth rates in the game, but they could definitely have not literally the lowest. More moderate growth rates would probably help. They'll always be considered useless units by efficiency players as their bases make them not worth the effort, but for those that do put in the effort, it just ends up with pretty moderate units rather than a growth unit that you would expect to end up great and be worth the effort. LIke here's a level 10 Ewan vs a level 1 Lute.

Lute

Level HP Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
1 17 6 6 7 8 3 5

Ewan

Level HP Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
1 20.5 7.05 6.6 10.15 9.5 2.35 8.6

 

You put in that effort to train him to get a unit with 1 point ahead in everything (and even less defense). And it's not like Ewan continues to be better there even though he comes later and is harder to train. Here is his 20/20 sage stats vs Lute.

Name HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
Ewan (Sage (M)) 43.5   25.15 21.8 23.45 28.5 11.05 25
Lute (Sage) 37.1   30 18.4 24.1 25.1 11.7 23.2

Lute has slightly higher growth rates than Ewan so she will end up better or equal to him in everything but HP. In fact that 5 point deficit in magic makes him quite a bit worse.  If he's going to be a growth unit he really should end up noticeably better. It's not like he returns the investment by being an Est unit. Still a fun unit because he can go summoner, but yeesh, they could have given him a bit more. When you have units like Ephraim and Seth who are ridiculous from the outset and continue to grow more ridiculous throughout, the units that are intentionally difficult to train could be a bit more rewarding.

Edited by Jotari
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That's a lot of talk about growths, so let's look at Seth's bases.  The next units that shows up with something similar to Seth's bases is Innes and Gerik.  Both of them start off locked to a range (Innes is two-range and Gerik is one).  Gerik doesn't get 1-2 range until a Hero Crest (no I'm not counting Light Brands, they're quite rare), and Innes is stuck being a Sniper.  Meanwhile, Seth has until Innes and Gerik to use his excellent growths to get ahead.  He also has instant 1-2 range access in the form of Javelins, and his CON is high enough that he doesn't take a SPD hit when wielding one.  Lastly, he starts with A ranks in both swords and lances, meaning that he can wield stronger weapons than someone who starts at E/D rank can.  In other words, better bases and better weapons at the start of the game gives him more time to snowball, meaning that he'll continue to be good.

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2 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I wanna try to not mention Lord character's unless it's absolutely possible, but I'd also like to ask if any of the units I mentioned are comparable to these units?

Well you did mention Sigurd and NES-Marth, which is more lords than I mentioned! I don't think many other lords really belong in this conversation; some are pretty good, but since they tend to start off relatively weak and rarely have great move they're rarely among the absolute best units.

The units you listed are generally great, yep. The only one I'd probably drop from the list is Pent, much as I like him - he's good, but not game-breakingly so, and only exists for a third of the game. I think Marcus, Florina, Sain, and Kent are generally considered better, and you can make the case for others. Also my experience with FE1 is minimal so I can't really weigh in on NES-Marth (he didn't seem game-breaking from the one casual file I watched but IDK, someone else should weigh in). Every other unit you listed is pretty busted IMO.

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3 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I want a unit that's consistently seen as top tier and for good reason.

I haven't played enough games in the series to make a comprehensive list, but I don't think anyone here has mentioned FE11 Caeda, have they? Caeda is the best bosskiller in FE11, and on higher difficulties, that's a godsend.

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16 hours ago, AvatarofDiscord said:

I know Ryoma, Titania, Haar, Marth (NES), Ares, Sigurd and Pent, any other ones?

Camilla (Fates) is a prepromo with good stats, easy access to Wyvern Lord, which is ten billion percent better than her starting class of Malig Knight. Rutger (Binding Blade) is a reliable bosskiller, and gets 30 crit upon promoting. Anyway, Haar is nowhere near broken in Path of Radiance, as he joins rather late, and Titania, while good in RD, nonetheless suffers from the nerfs RD smacked cavalry with.

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