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New Heroes & Ascended Mareeta


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@Ice Dragon Miranda's ending has her abdicating the throne of Ulster to live a normal life as a regular woman, not really an "Ascension"
I can see Olwen working, reconstructing Friege and likely wielding the Blessed Sword, but Reinhardt wouldn't. Not only is he canonically dead, but his purpose in the story is to contrast Olwen: she realizes she's fighting for the bad guys and switches sides to fight for what's right, he already know they're working for the bad guys but is unable to bring himself to do anything about. His arc is his inability to grow as a person

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32 minutes ago, Zeo said:

Technically this is on topic but... what is better for Ascended Mareeta? +SPD or +ATK? The former is pretty much what all of her abilities scale off of, but she has a super boon in the latter.

The +1 from a super boon is only worth getting if the +3 from the regular Asset was already worth getting over a different Asset.

 

31 minutes ago, Mysterique Sign said:

@Ice Dragon Miranda's ending has her abdicating the throne of Ulster to live a normal life as a regular woman, not really an "Ascension"
I can see Olwen working, reconstructing Friege and likely wielding the Blessed Sword, but Reinhardt wouldn't. Not only is he canonically dead, but his purpose in the story is to contrast Olwen: she realizes she's fighting for the bad guys and switches sides to fight for what's right, he already know they're working for the bad guys but is unable to bring himself to do anything about. His arc is his inability to grow as a person

Thanks!

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36 minutes ago, Zeo said:

Technically this is on topic but... what is better for Ascended Mareeta? +SPD or +ATK? The former is pretty much what all of her abilities scale off of, but she has a super boon in the latter.

Since you can ascend one of her stats for free, I don't see any better option than going with +Atk+Spd.

Since she reaches the same BST bin with or without superboon, it doesn't even matter which of the stats is an asset or ascended.

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13 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:
21 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's kind of just your assumption though. We have a pattern of only three characters so far for Ascended heroes which isn't anything at all. For all we know we could both legendary and ascended characters. You really think Idunn, for examle, couldn't have been a legendary or mythic?Even disregarding Finn and Nana, Thracia isn't lacking in characters that could conceivably be Ascended units.

 

All of these characters are plot relevant enough to get an ascended hero (they're not all necessarily popular enough, but it's Thracia, no one is popular). That's ten characters (excluding Mareeta). Even if you say half of those characters aren't good enough (and once again we have no metric to judge what even is ascended worthy, the closest is that it's a post game form of a character so only surviving characters count, but I wouldn't bet against them not following that paradigm for Ascended Reinhardt, though now that I think of it almost all Thracia bosses can technically survive) that's still like 10% of the roster. Mareeta was far from the only choice.

Even with only three units, I think we already have a good enough idea that Ascended Heroes serve a similar role as Legendary Heroes (which we have a lot of examples of), but are for characters that are less important than Legendary Heroes. They could certainly expand it later, but the probability of that happening this early is fairly low.

The probability that they'd make a unit both Legendary and Ascended is astronomically low. The only units I think could potentially get such a treatment are Binding Blade's Eliwood and Hector, and even then, I'm skeptical that they'd even want to do that.

Idunn is more of a stretch for a Legendary or Mythic version than Nanna or Finn are for a Legendary version. While Idunn would not be out of place as a Legendary or Mythic Hero, her qualifications are closer to Fae's and certainly aren't anywhere near Nanna's or Finn's. There's absolutely no reason they'd have Nanna or Finn be an Ascended Hero.

Linoan and Leidrik aren't even in the game yet, and Lifis doesn't have a normal version released yet. Even if they would qualify as Ascended Heroes as characters (and I'm doubtful of Leidrik and Lifis), there is no way they would be released that this time and later have their normal versions power creep them.

I also don't see Veld getting an Ascended version at all. Veld's normal version is already functionally his "final form". There is no room for him to ascend. As far as non-surviving bosses go, Hasha's Zephiel is one of the few characters that I can actually see getting an Ascended version (whereas the Fallen banner makes more sense for most powered up enemies), but only if we ever get around to any kind of representation for Hasha.

I don't know much about Miranda, so I can't argue either direction.

I'll admit that I hadn't thought of Sety previously, and he'd probably be a better candidate than Eyvel (due to the weirdness of not yet having normal Briggid in the game yet, though it would also be weird if Ascended Eyvel were stronger than Briggid with Ichii-bal), even if his Ascended version ends up being from a different game than his normal version.

So that still leaves me with only Eyvel, Sety, and Cyas as the most likely contenders (after second thought, I've also bumped up Cyas into this category), Reinhardt and Olwen as reaches, and I-don't-know-enough-about-Miranda-to-make-a-judgment.

You're missing the point. Finn and Nana being discounted because they're legendairies is you're speculation. It's bit a fact, because they're not legendairies. Not yet at least, but the could be, they could also be Ascended heroes too. Consider what it would be like if we were having this conversation two months ago and speculation went to Binding Blade ascended heroes. Would you dismiss Idoun as an ascended hero because she'll probably be a mythic or legendary? Probably, it is the exact same logic after all. But they didn't make her one even though she easily could have been one, they made her an ascended hero instead. That's my point, we can't discount characters as ascended heroes because they already have another alt. Would they make a character both a legendary hero and an ascended hero, probably not, but unless they actually become one or the other they have the potential to be both.

As for characters not in the game yet, that's irrelevant, as they're not adding all of Thracia's ascended characters into the game at once. The solution to them not being in the game yet is to put them in the game. They can be made an ascended character in one or two years down the road. If there were literally no heroes currently in the game better than Mareeta then sure that would be an excuse, but it becomes moot if there's even a single character that serves as a better choice.

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9 hours ago, Mysterique Sign said:

@Ice Dragon Miranda's ending has her abdicating the throne of Ulster to live a normal life as a regular woman, not really an "Ascension"
I can see Olwen working, reconstructing Friege and likely wielding the Blessed Sword, but Reinhardt wouldn't. Not only is he canonically dead, but his purpose in the story is to contrast Olwen: she realizes she's fighting for the bad guys and switches sides to fight for what's right, he already know they're working for the bad guys but is unable to bring himself to do anything about. His arc is his inability to grow as a person

Idunn's ending is just that she learns to smile, and the managed to do a pretty good job working that into an Ascended hero. They could do something with Miranda becoming just a normal person likewise, in fact it'd be pretty interesting to see given her personality is so illsuited to such an ending (which the ending itself acknowledges). Regardless I'd still like to see an Ascended Miranda purely because they did her dirty by not giving her (and Azel) a horse like she's meant to have. Olwen is in the same boat as Mareeta in having two alts already, but I'd actually much prefer her over Mareeta due to them flat out ignoring Olwen's second prf weapon, so I feel there is still something lacking in her representation in Heroes. Ideally though I would have just never had Thunderhead Olwen to begin with. It was a completely generic weapon that could have been slapped on any mage.

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32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You're missing the point. Finn and Nana being discounted because they're legendairies is you're speculation. It's bit a fact, because they're not legendairies. Not yet at least, but the could be, they could also be Ascended heroes too. Consider what it would be like if we were having this conversation two months ago and speculation went to Binding Blade ascended heroes. Would you dismiss Idoun as an ascended hero because she'll probably be a mythic or legendary? Probably, it is the exact same logic after all. But they didn't make her one even though she easily could have been one, they made her an ascended hero instead. That's my point, we can't discount characters as ascended heroes because they already have another alt. Would they make a character both a legendary hero and an ascended hero, probably not, but unless they actually become one or the other they have the potential to be both.

Actually, I would have put Idunn in all three categories, and I would have considered Fae a potential pick as either an Ascended Hero or a Legendary Hero (but not a Mythic Hero). They have weaker arguments for being Legendary/Mythic Heroes than either of Nanna or Finn, which increases the chances that they'd be chosen as Ascended Heroes.

Because getting a Legendary version is presumed to be mutually exclusive to getting an Ascended version due to the fact that the two serve the exact same purpose of displaying a character at their peak, any probability that a unit will be a future Legendary Hero or Mythic Hero necessarily reduces the probability that a unit will be a future Ascended Hero and vice versa.

Nanna and Finn both have strong arguments for becoming Legendary Heroes, which severely reduces the chances that they would ever appear as Ascended Heroes.

 

32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

As for characters not in the game yet, that's irrelevant, as they're not adding all of Thracia's ascended characters into the game at once. The solution to them not being in the game yet is to put them in the game. They can be made an ascended character in one or two years down the road. If there were literally no heroes currently in the game better than Mareeta then sure that would be an excuse, but it becomes moot if there's even a single character that serves as a better choice.

It is relevant, though. We're talking about which characters could have been Ascended Heroes on this banner in Mareeta's stead. Future banners are completely irrelevant for who could have appeared on this banner as the Ascended Hero. Any character that has not yet been released with a normal version had a negligible probability of being an Ascended Hero on this banner.

 

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Idunn's ending is just that she learns to smile, and the managed to do a pretty good job working that into an Ascended hero.

Because that is an actual ascension? Learning how to emote after being raised as a tool is kind of a popular plot for entire stories to be based off of.

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12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Actually, I would have put Idunn in all three categories, and I would have considered Fae a potential pick as either an Ascended Hero or a Legendary Hero (but not a Mythic Hero). They have weaker arguments for being Legendary/Mythic Heroes than either of Nanna or Finn, which increases the chances that they'd be chosen as Ascended Heroes.

Because getting a Legendary version is presumed to be mutually exclusive to getting an Ascended version due to the fact that the two serve the exact same purpose of displaying a character at their peak, any probability that a unit will be a future Legendary Hero or Mythic Hero necessarily reduces the probability that a unit will be a future Ascended Hero and vice versa.

Nanna and Finn both have strong arguments for becoming Legendary Heroes, which severely reduces the chances that they would ever appear as Ascended Heroes.

Exactly, that's my point. I would put Nana and Finn in ascended and legendary categories too (well actually not Finn, but I'll get to that in a second). They have arguments for being legendaries, Idunn had arguments for being mythic, yet Idunn was an ascended unit. This means the potential to be a legendary does not mean a unit can't be an ascended. It's a choice. You can't say "Nana and Finn can't be ascended units because they're going to be legendaries" as that is not true (yet). They could be either, the fact that they could be one does not prevent them being the other. They very likely won't be both, but until they actually debut as one or the other they're a case of Schrodinger's unit.

Finn I actually think would be illsuited as a legendary. Yes, he's a major character and an important person for the characters, but in terms of lore he's actually a bit of a nobody. A servant to other, more important characters. I reckon we'll get a Finn alt some day, but more likely it'll just be on a Genealogy banner as young Finn. Of course Mareeta likewise isn't all that important in lore (though she at least has Holy Blood) yet is now an Ascended, so I can of course be wrong. He just wouldn't be my first choice as a legendary character from Jugdral.

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It is relevant, though. We're talking about which characters could have been Ascended Heroes on this banner in Mareeta's stead. Future banners are completely irrelevant for who could have appeared on this banner as the Ascended Hero. Any character that has not yet been released with a normal version had a negligible probability of being an Ascended Hero on this banner.

You said Thracia doesn't have much potential for ascended units. I found this to be wrong. Thracia has lots of potential for ascended units. Are half of them not in the game yet? Yes, and that's why I actually would have preferred no ascended unit for Thracia, but half of them are also in the game already. And even if only a single unit was in the game that was Ascended potential, if they were a better candidate than Mareeta then that still means they should have been put in over Mareeta, who (in my own subjective opinion) wasn't a great choice due to having two alts already that encompass her character very well and, for this banner specifically, really showing up her father Galzus who is a fantastic unit in Thracia and deserves to be so much better than this in Heroes (so...Ascended Galzus please). Though really any Ascended unit probably would have done that to Galzus, which is kind of a reason why Ascended units suck as a concept for anyone a fan of characters not yet in the game.

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2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Exactly, that's my point. I would put Nana and Finn in ascended and legendary categories too (well actually not Finn, but I'll get to that in a second). They have arguments for being legendaries, Idunn had arguments for being mythic, yet Idunn was an ascended unit. This means the potential to be a legendary does not mean a unit can't be an ascended. It's a choice. You can't say "Nana and Finn can't be ascended units because they're going to be legendaries" as that is not true (yet). They could be either, the fact that they could be one does not prevent them being the other. They very likely won't be both, but until they actually debut as one or the other they're a case of Schrodinger's unit.

Finn I actually think would be illsuited as a legendary. Yes, he's a major character and an important person for the characters, but in terms of lore he's actually a bit of a nobody. A servant to other, more important characters. I reckon we'll get a Finn alt some day, but more likely it'll just be on a Genealogy banner as young Finn. Of course Mareeta likewise isn't all that important in lore (though she at least has Holy Blood) yet is now an Ascended, so I can of course be wrong. He just wouldn't be my first choice as a legendary character from Jugdral.

Literally nowhere did I say that Nanna and Finn cannot be Ascended Heroes. Every time, I've said that it is unlikely and incredibly so.

There is nothing similar between Idunn's situation and Nanna and Finn's situation. Prior to Idunn's release as an Ascended Hero and given the knowledge that Mareeta would be an Ascended Hero, I would likely have given her a 40-20-40 split for Mythic, Legendary, and Ascended Hero, in that order. For Fae, again given the knowledge of what Ascended Heroes we now have, it would have been 50-50 between Legendary and Ascended Hero (and negligible for Mythic Hero).

That's nowhere near the probabilities I'm currently predicting for Nanna and Finn. Nanna I'd predict even higher than a 90-10 split, and Finn is still around a 90-10 split. It's absolutely not comparable to Idunn or Fae.

 

And in terms of lore, Lyn is also a complete nobody. Probably even more so than Finn. But Lyn is a main character, and Finn is a major character, and that should be more than enough to override their lack of importance to the lore (especially if we're still considering Sothe as a likely candidate for a Legendary Hero due to his inclusion on the 30th anniversary Fire Emblem Leads banner and even the Feh Channel).

 

Speaking of the 30th anniversary banner and the anniversary Feh Channel, here's how they actually compare against the current list of Legendary Heroes:

  • 27 of the characters on the banner or Feh Channel are currently Legendary Heroes
  • 2 of the characters on the banner or Feh Channel have the opposite gender version of themselves currently as Legendary Heroes (male Robin and male Corrin)
  • 7 of the characters on the banner or Feh Channel are not yet Legendary Heroes (Elincia, Tsubasa, Ninian, Dierdre, Sothe, Nanna, and Itsuki)
    • Of these, all of them except Itsuki were on the banner due to Itsuki being a Grail unit, but only Sothe and Itsuki were in the Feh Channel
  • 3 current Legendary Heroes were neither on the banner nor the Feh Channel (Ryoma, Tiki, and Fae), excluding characters original to Heroes

We can presume that this gives Nanna a very high chance of becoming a Legendary Hero. Finn's only version is a Grail unit, so there's no way to know for certain if he would have been on the banner or not, but it's clear that there are other characters on the banner who are of similar importance to their own games as Finn is.

 

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You said Thracia doesn't have much potential for ascended units.

And I meant on this banner, as the original context of my assertion was Mareeta being the Ascended Hero on this banner as opposed to another character.

You can take this as my clarification since it is admittedly easy to miss the context of a post when there are multiple discussions going on concurrently.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Literally nowhere did I say that Nanna and Finn cannot be Ascended Heroes. Every time, I've said that it is unlikely and incredibly so.

There is nothing similar between Idunn's situation and Nanna and Finn's situation. Prior to Idunn's release as an Ascended Hero and given the knowledge that Mareeta would be an Ascended Hero, I would likely have given her a 40-20-40 split for Mythic, Legendary, and Ascended Hero, in that order. For Fae, again given the knowledge of what Ascended Heroes we now have, it would have been 50-50 between Legendary and Ascended Hero (and negligible for Mythic Hero).

That's nowhere near the probabilities I'm currently predicting for Nanna and Finn. Nanna I'd predict even higher than a 90-10 split, and Finn is still around a 90-10 split. It's absolutely not comparable to Idunn or Fae.

But that is literally just your opinion, you're pulling numbers out of your ass. And you're using it as logic to dismiss other people's points about their credibility. You're using your own feelings as evidence. We're also not talking exclusively about what is likely to happen, it's also what the best thing to do is. Because what actually happened was Maretta. And at least a few (I wouldn't dain to suggest anyone here actually represents the majority, it's probably the best financial choice because waifu, and money is what they ultimately care about) are displeased by that.

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And I meant on this banner, as the original context of my assertion was Mareeta being the Ascended Hero on this banner as opposed to another character.

You can take this as my clarification since it is admittedly easy to miss the context of a post when there are multiple discussions going on concurrently.

Okay, granted, but even taking Heroes as it is in this moment in time, there were better choices than Mareeta, I think we can both agree on that (I guess I haven't commented on him specifically, but yes, I would like to see Ascended Sety, though I wouldn't discount a Forseti Sety as a legendary unit either). Picking an Ascended hero for Thracia is also just unfair on the title as it has so little units in the game as is. I would have much preferred if the Thracia banner had been swapped with the Awakening banner late last year, so the Awakening one got an ascended hero while Thracia got in before they became (what seems to be) a staple of New Heroes Banners. Awakening already has practically it sentire cast in the game, so it could definitely do with some more alts, while Thracia is starved of some of its most noticeable characters and just needs more units period.

EDIT: Oh, I just checked and the Awakening banner coincided with Ash joining. I thought it was released just before that. Man they were really giving OC ascended Heroes for a long time before they finally started using characters from the series.

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1 hour ago, Jotari said:

EDIT: Oh, I just checked and the Awakening banner coincided with Ash joining. I thought it was released just before that. Man they were really giving OC ascended Heroes for a long time before they finally started using characters from the series.

Not that long, there were only two of them. Looking back at previous "highlight" units:

  • March: Mareeta (Ascended main)
  • February: Idunn (Ascended main)
  • January: Joshua (Ascended main)
  • December: Ash (Mythic OC)
  • November: Laegjarn (Ascended OC)
  • October: Fjorm (Ascended OC)

Before that, we got Muspell in September and Nifl in July, but those were regular New Heroes, not Ascended. (August was skipped because it was CYL.) Then before that, June had Nott and May was Fallen Heroes. So the last banner where none of the four units were alts or OCs was the FE7 banner back in April 2021.

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9 minutes ago, Othin said:

Not that long, there were only two of them. Looking back at previous "highlight" units:

  • March: Mareeta (Ascended main)
  • February: Idunn (Ascended main)
  • January: Joshua (Ascended main)
  • December: Ash (Mythic OC)
  • November: Laegjarn (Ascended OC)
  • October: Fjorm (Ascended OC)

Before that, we got Muspell in September and Nifl in July, but those were regular New Heroes, not Ascended. (August was skipped because it was CYL.) Then before that, June had Nott and May was Fallen Heroes. So the last banner where none of the four units were alts or OCs was the FE7 banner back in April 2021.

Yeah, I realized soon after posting I was conflating Nigl and Muspell as Ascended Heroes. It is weird that they were just regular units. I get where they were going with it and the ongoing Tempest Trials plotline they had, but they way they went it was just sort of odd. They feel like they could have been legendaries, and worked pretty well as mythics, as the number of viable mythics is getting lower. Still since April with a full batch of new heroes is pretty crazy. That's almost a full year. And it seems Ascended is here to stay, meaning they're will always be at least one alt (or OC, but even then they're Alts if Ascended continues to work this way) on the banner. Which at this point in the game's life cycle makes sense, but only for the more popular titles that have burned through their character base. Jugdral and Tellius are losing out in a big way to this shift. On the other hand if they just plain didn't get Ascended units that would feel like we're missing out on stuff like a cool Ascended Mist or Ranulf or something. They could give us more free units just from quests, but then people will complain about those units being trash tier (Tatiana deserved better T.T). It's kind of a doomed if you do doomed if you don't situation. I think they could move away from Tempest Trials being a purely seasonals affair like it's been for a while now. Though I guess they don't want Tempest Trials and Forging bonds to step on each others toes.

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

But that is literally just your opinion, you're pulling numbers out of your ass. And you're using it as logic to dismiss other people's points about their credibility. You're using your own feelings as evidence. We're also not talking exclusively about what is likely to happen, it's also what the best thing to do is. Because what actually happened was Maretta. And at least a few (I wouldn't dain to suggest anyone here actually represents the majority, it's probably the best financial choice because waifu, and money is what they ultimately care about) are displeased by that.

They may be opinion like any other prediction is, but they are still grounded in actual patterns and evidence, not thoughts and feelings. You're just dismissing all of the evidence with an "anything that isn't 100% accurate is 50% accurate" argument as if our inability to know the future means all possibilities are equally likely.

Idunn's numbers are because her most likely Legendary/Mythic/Ascended (henceforth "LMA")version would be from the epilogue, as it is unlikely that they would make another version of her final boss form. As a final boss that is a recovering fallen divine dragon, she has the possibility of becoming a Mythic Hero. The only LMA enemy characters that we currently have are Grima and Duma. Duma is a degenerating divine dragon and is a Mythic Hero, and Grima is a synthetic dragon that contains divine dragon blood and is a Legendary Hero. Grima is an alternate version of a playable character, so even if Mythic Heroes existed when she was released, it would have been likely that she would still have been a Legendary Hero. Given the situation, Idunn would more likely be a Mythic Hero than a Legendary Hero with the only major point against being that we haven't had any Mythic Heroes that are alts of existing units, so even then, this option isn't going to be an overwhelmingly favored option. On the other hand, Idunn would have been extremely likely as an Ascended Hero due to the fact that her situation of being an epilogue version is almost identical to that of Joshua and to a greater extent than her similarities with Duma or Grima. As such, her chances of being an Ascended Hero should be somewhat similar to her chances of becoming a Mythic Hero if even greater. As such, she gets a 1:2:2 split (in LMA order) to avoid going into too much precision that I cannot justify.

Fae doesn't qualify as a Mythic Hero and has no canon "final form" version. She is in a similar situation as Tiki as far as story relevance and has a high likelihood of getting an LMA alt from her epilogue with Idunn, which could qualify as either a Legendary Hero or an Ascended Hero. Her split goes 1:1.

Nanna is one of the units that was featured on the anniversary Fire Emblem Leads banner, and given that 25 of the 31 characters that appeared on the banner and 29 of the 36 characters that appeared on either the banner or the accompanying Feh Channer have since become Legendary Heroes, there is an overwhelmingly high chance that Nanna will follow suit, which I'm estimating to be more than 10:1, again sticking to round numbers to avoid needing to justify any further precision (I'm limiting myself to 1-5 and 10). At the very least, it's not going to be anywhere near 1:1 and I can't really even justify 5:1 when evidence so heavily leans towards one side.

Finn did not appear on the anniversary banner due to being a Grail unit and did not appear in the Feh Channel, as the only character in his position that did was Sothe for some inexplicable reason. However, he occupies a similar space in his game as Caeda, Lilina, and Sothe do in their own games, and all three of them appeared on the banner, and Caeda and Lilina have since received Legendary Hero versions. Given these parallels and the general lack of other options for Legendary Heroes from Thracia besides Nanna and the already existing Leaf, I also give Finn an extremely high chance of becoming a Legendary Hero in the future, which significantly diminishes his chances of becoming an Ascended Hero. I'm estimating around 10:1 because he is in a similar position as Nanna, but not being able to appear on the anniversary banner to settle the score definitively means I can't give him chances higher than Nanna's.

So no, these aren't based off of solely feelings, and they aren't pulled out of my ass.

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6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

They may be opinion like any other prediction is, but they are still grounded in actual patterns and evidence, not thoughts and feelings. You're just dismissing all of the evidence with an "anything that isn't 100% accurate is 50% accurate" argument as if our inability to know the future means all possibilities are equally likely.

Idunn's numbers are because her most likely Legendary/Mythic/Ascended (henceforth "LMA")version would be from the epilogue, as it is unlikely that they would make another version of her final boss form. As a final boss that is a recovering fallen divine dragon, she has the possibility of becoming a Mythic Hero. The only LMA enemy characters that we currently have are Grima and Duma. Duma is a degenerating divine dragon and is a Mythic Hero, and Grima is a synthetic dragon that contains divine dragon blood and is a Legendary Hero. Grima is an alternate version of a playable character, so even if Mythic Heroes existed when she was released, it would have been likely that she would still have been a Legendary Hero. Given the situation, Idunn would more likely be a Mythic Hero than a Legendary Hero with the only major point against being that we haven't had any Mythic Heroes that are alts of existing units, so even then, this option isn't going to be an overwhelmingly favored option. On the other hand, Idunn would have been extremely likely as an Ascended Hero due to the fact that her situation of being an epilogue version is almost identical to that of Joshua and to a greater extent than her similarities with Duma or Grima. As such, her chances of being an Ascended Hero should be somewhat similar to her chances of becoming a Mythic Hero if even greater. As such, she gets a 1:2:2 split (in LMA order) to avoid going into too much precision that I cannot justify.

Fae doesn't qualify as a Mythic Hero and has no canon "final form" version. She is in a similar situation as Tiki as far as story relevance and has a high likelihood of getting an LMA alt from her epilogue with Idunn, which could qualify as either a Legendary Hero or an Ascended Hero. Her split goes 1:1.

Nanna is one of the units that was featured on the anniversary Fire Emblem Leads banner, and given that 25 of the 31 characters that appeared on the banner and 29 of the 36 characters that appeared on either the banner or the accompanying Feh Channer have since become Legendary Heroes, there is an overwhelmingly high chance that Nanna will follow suit, which I'm estimating to be more than 10:1, again sticking to round numbers to avoid needing to justify any further precision (I'm limiting myself to 1-5 and 10). At the very least, it's not going to be anywhere near 1:1 and I can't really even justify 5:1 when evidence so heavily leans towards one side.

Finn did not appear on the anniversary banner due to being a Grail unit and did not appear in the Feh Channel, as the only character in his position that did was Sothe for some inexplicable reason. However, he occupies a similar space in his game as Caeda, Lilina, and Sothe do in their own games, and all three of them appeared on the banner, and Caeda and Lilina have since received Legendary Hero versions. Given these parallels and the general lack of other options for Legendary Heroes from Thracia besides Nanna and the already existing Leaf, I also give Finn an extremely high chance of becoming a Legendary Hero in the future, which significantly diminishes his chances of becoming an Ascended Hero. I'm estimating around 10:1 because he is in a similar position as Nanna, but not being able to appear on the anniversary banner to settle the score definitively means I can't give him chances higher than Nanna's.

So no, these aren't based off of solely feelings, and they aren't pulled out of my ass.

They are though. We've had a grand total of three examples of (non OC) Ascended Heroes (and it was only two prior to Mareeta). That's not enough data to build up a pattern at all. Not that pattern reading has ever been accurate in Heroes as they've defied clear patterns many times. The fact that they could be legendaries does not mean they will be. Muspell could have been a legendary or a mythic, but they made him a regular Hero (just like Nifl). You're basing your patterns off the game before the emergence of Ascended Heroes. Lillina very well could have been an Ascended had it existed back then. You might be right about some of your speculation, you might be wrong others, but it's arrogance to use your own hunch as evidence to dismiss the opinion of others.

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Ashera was another mythic enemy.

Even if Ascended units are currently staying out of the tier of characters most likely to be legendaries, that tier will get exhausted eventually once they run out of candidates from it. At that point, they'll have to start drawing legendaries from the same pool they've been using for Ascended units, whether that means splitting them up arbitrarily or doubling up.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

They are though. We've had a grand total of three examples of (non OC) Ascended Heroes (and it was only two prior to Mareeta). That's not enough data to build up a pattern at all. Not that pattern reading has ever been accurate in Heroes as they've defied clear patterns many times. The fact that they could be legendaries does not mean they will be. Muspell could have been a legendary or a mythic, but they made him a regular Hero (just like Nifl). You're basing your patterns off the game before the emergence of Ascended Heroes. Lillina very well could have been an Ascended had it existed back then. You might be right about some of your speculation, you might be wrong others, but it's arrogance to use your own hunch as evidence to dismiss the opinion of others.

Okay, but do you have any evidence at all to the contrary? All you've been doing is dismissing evidence that you don't like in order to claim that there isn't any evidence and then say that "we don't know so it's 50-50". The only things in my arguments that are a "hunch" are the magnitudes of the differences between the numbers I give. Everything that those numbers are based on are simple, objective facts that you're trying to pretend don't exist. It's not arrogance to say that I have evidence and you don't, and therefore I can be more confident in my conclusions.

Nifl and Muspell are both Heroes-original characters, and those are absolutely all over the place in how their first versions are implemented and are horribly unrepresentative of how non-Heroes characters get represented, as the latter actually follow predictable patterns whereas the former does not. The weirdness seen in the implementation of Heroes characters has no bearing on the implementation of non-Heroes characters, which do not at all display the same weirdness.

We can't know if Lilina could have been an Ascended Hero had they existed when she was released, but we do know that Caeda, who is literally Lilina's predecessor as bandit recruitment center and main character's love interest (even if Roy × Lilina isn't 100% canon), ended up as a Legendary Hero. And we also know that IS considers Lilina an important enough of a character to have included her in the Fire Emblem Leads banner along with Caeda.

Furthermore, @Othin brings up a very good point that we're currently running out of units that fit the mold of what we currently consider Legendary Hero candidates. As that number dwindles, it'll be the pool of Legendary Hero candidates pushing into the pool of Ascended Hero candidates and not the other way around. Characters that skirt the fuzzy edge between them will naturally end up on the Legendary Hero side as more time passes and the edge continues to move.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Furthermore, @Othin brings up a very good point that we're currently running out of units that fit the mold of what we currently consider Legendary Hero candidates. As that number dwindles, it'll be the pool of Legendary Hero candidates pushing into the pool of Ascended Hero candidates and not the other way around. Characters that skirt the fuzzy edge between them will naturally end up on the Legendary Hero side as more time passes and the edge continues to move.

My point was more that any Ascended Hero candidate could eventually be considered a Legendary Hero candidate, so expecting Ascended Heroes to be picked only from units that will never be candidates for Legendary doesn't really make sense.

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1 hour ago, Othin said:

My point was more that any Ascended Hero candidate could eventually be considered a Legendary Hero candidate, so expecting Ascended Heroes to be picked only from units that will never be candidates for Legendary doesn't really make sense.

Sure, but I'm not saying that Nanna and Finn are unlikely to become Ascended Heroes because they could eventually be Legendary Hero candidates. I'm saying that they're unlikely to become Ascended Heroes because they already are Legendary Hero candidates.

As another example, I consider Larchel, Innes, and Tana to be likely to be Ascended Hero candidates right now because they are unlikely to be chosen as Legendary Heroes in the near future, and their situation is similar to the existing Ascended Joshua. However, if we get both Legendary Myrrh and Legendary Lyon, for example, then the probability of Larchel, Innes, and Tana becoming Ascended Heroes decreases substantially due to them becoming more likely to be chosen as Legendary Heroes, even though we already have Ascended Joshua.

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So I just wanna be sure, Vital Astra can be inherited by Infantry Sword, Lance, and Axe units who have learned the original Astra skill (easily grabbed from Virion), and this 2-cooldown special adds 30% of the users Spd when triggered in combat. In addition, this skill has a Dodge 2 effect when it is fully charged.

Marth's Shining Emblem adds 35% of his Spd on being triggered, gives Marth +6 to all stats and +6 Atk to nearby allies at the start of the units phase if Marth is within 2 spaces of an ally, and then grants all allies on the map +6 all stat if the special is triggered... And then there's Regnal/Imperial Astra, which are flat boosts of 40% of user Spd and that's it.
This special is... jeez. Not only is it completely busted for the units who can use it, but it's also the only inheritable 2-cooldown Special that has a consistent damage boost, which arguably makes it even more busted. What the hell was Intsys thinking? Mareeta really had to dig deep to learn to use Astra, and now anyone can use it if they read a book she wrote?

(though on that note I did find her C convo in the forging bonds funny, that she got to talk to actual Shannan and didn't put two and two together)

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1 hour ago, Xenomata said:

Mareeta really had to dig deep to learn to use Astra, and now anyone can use it if they read a book she wrote?

I mean, Astra was really only unique in the Jugdral games (to anyone of Od's bloodline).

Starting with the Tellius games, any bum that can class into Swordmaster (such as literally anyone in Three Houses) can get Astra. 

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35 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

So I just wanna be sure, Vital Astra can be inherited by Infantry Sword, Lance, and Axe units who have learned the original Astra skill (easily grabbed from Virion), and this 2-cooldown special adds 30% of the users Spd when triggered in combat. In addition, this skill has a Dodge 2 effect when it is fully charged.

Yes. It has the same inheritance restrictions as the B-slot Dodge skills and deals damage equal to 30% of the user's Spd. The Dodge 2 effect is active against AoE Specials if Vital Astra is already fully charged and is active in combat if Vital Astra was fully charged at the start of combat.

As far as damage goes, it will almost always deal more damage than Ruptured Sky against humans, but Ruptured Sky almost always deals more damage against non-humans.

The damage reduction effect is great for player-phase units that have the Slaying effect on their weapon since Time's Pulse can keep it fully charged for the first round of combat on each player phase, but it's not reliable on enemy-phase units unless they have an after-combat Pulse effect (like Ascended Mareeta and Brave Celica). Running Special Spiral to keep Vital Astra's Dodge effect active is strictly inferior to just running an actual Dodge skill since Dodge 3 all of the time plus Dodge 2 some of the time is flat out better than Dodge 2 all of the time.

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6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Okay, but do you have any evidence at all to the contrary? All you've been doing is dismissing evidence that you don't like in order to claim that there isn't any evidence and then say that "we don't know so it's 50-50". The only things in my arguments that are a "hunch" are the magnitudes of the differences between the numbers I give. Everything that those numbers are based on are simple, objective facts that you're trying to pretend don't exist. It's not arrogance to say that I have evidence and you don't, and therefore I can be more confident in my conclusions.

Nifl and Muspell are both Heroes-original characters, and those are absolutely all over the place in how their first versions are implemented and are horribly unrepresentative of how non-Heroes characters get represented, as the latter actually follow predictable patterns whereas the former does not. The weirdness seen in the implementation of Heroes characters has no bearing on the implementation of non-Heroes characters, which do not at all display the same weirdness.

We can't know if Lilina could have been an Ascended Hero had they existed when she was released, but we do know that Caeda, who is literally Lilina's predecessor as bandit recruitment center and main character's love interest (even if Roy × Lilina isn't 100% canon), ended up as a Legendary Hero. And we also know that IS considers Lilina an important enough of a character to have included her in the Fire Emblem Leads banner along with Caeda.

Furthermore, @Othin brings up a very good point that we're currently running out of units that fit the mold of what we currently consider Legendary Hero candidates. As that number dwindles, it'll be the pool of Legendary Hero candidates pushing into the pool of Ascended Hero candidates and not the other way around. Characters that skirt the fuzzy edge between them will naturally end up on the Legendary Hero side as more time passes and the edge continues to move.

There is no evidence. That is my point. There are trends sure,  but trends have always been broken in Heroes and what trends exist come from before Ascended Heroes were a thing. You can have a bunch all you want, I'm not saying you can't, but your hunch is not the current reality.

Edited by Jotari
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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Yes. It has the same inheritance restrictions as the B-slot Dodge skills and deals damage equal to 30% of the user's Spd. The Dodge 2 effect is active against AoE Specials if Vital Astra is already fully charged and is active in combat if Vital Astra was fully charged at the start of combat.

That it is limited to units who can learn Dodge skills is kinda lame, but the units who can equip it still have access to a good array of skills that could work with Vital Astra (plus Dodge skills so double stacking is now as simple as that).

As far as damage goes, it will almost always deal more damage than Ruptured Sky against humans, but Ruptured Sky almost always deals more damage against non-humans.

Ironic that the Byleths who give Ruptured Sky might actually prefer to use Vital Astra instead...
Anyway, there's probably not a good way to say which is the better Special. While humans completely outnumber the subhumans, many existing subhumans are very popular units, especially where AR-D is concerned since some mythics are subhumans themselves. I guess it just comes down to if you want to risk going for potentially higher (inconsistent) damage or dealing a set amount of damage to all units and also sometimes have Dodge 2 in effect.

The damage reduction effect is great for player-phase units that have the Slaying effect on their weapon since Time's Pulse can keep it fully charged for the first round of combat on each player phase, but it's not reliable on enemy-phase units unless they have an after-combat Pulse effect (like Ascended Mareeta and Brave Celica). Running Special Spiral to keep Vital Astra's Dodge effect active is strictly inferior to just running an actual Dodge skill since Dodge 3 all of the time plus Dodge 2 some of the time is flat out better than Dodge 2 all of the time.

Vital Astra is probably fully meant to be used alongside Player Phase units who have their special charged at all times via Time's Pulse or Ostian Pulse II.
Even if it's possible to maintain full charge after combat just by letting the unit get an attack in after using VA, it's not likely as many of the units who would get use out of VA would just deal too much damage in one hit...
It would take some building and good use of skills to get the best out of Vital Astra, investment which I'm not too keen on giving to any of my units since they honestly don't need it, but I guess being able to have the effects of a Dodge passive equipped in the Special slot will appear to some people. Certainly might make some Hero Battle/Arena/AR-D teams more annoying to take down when they can make it possible to stack that much damage reduction... Brave Ike getting yet another layer of damage reduction has not escaped my notice either... but yeah, probably not gonna sweat it.

@Tybrosion In fairness, they have to WORK to learn Astra. In Tracia, as far as I know anyway, Mareeta talked to some guy who said he was Shannan and learned Astra through sheer force of will.
I don't think there's many other skills that can be stated to have been that easy to learn. What the anankos is an Aether Manual?

Edited by Xenomata
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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

There is no evidence. That is my point. There are trends sure,  but trends have always been broken in Heroes and what trends exist come from before Ascended Heroes were a thing. You can have a bunch all you want, I'm not saying you can't, but your hunch is not the current reality.

You realize that trends literally are evidence, right? And that not all trends in this game have been broken, right? And that there are ways to account for the possibility that a trend will be broken, right? There literally are entire branches of mathematics dedicated to accounting for incomplete data.

As I have already stated countless times here, your argument boils down to "we can't predict the future perfectly; therefore, all possibilities are equally possible", which is the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "la la la I can't hear you" at the top of your lungs. You're seeing only the reality you want to see and pretending like everything that doesn't conform to your reality doesn't exist.

And evidence to support my assertion is not the same as evidence to support your assertion. My evidence is not the same as your evidence. Just because "there is no evidence" for me doesn't mean you're exempt from presenting evidence to support your assertion. Show me evidence that "trends have always been broken". Show me evidence that this trend is likely to be broken. Show me evidence that "there is no evidence" to support my claim.

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Guys is this really worth arguing about

I only got one Mareeta during my way to the spark (and only one Karin and a random Lethe, this wasn't a good banner for me) so I don't have plans to give away Vital Astra anytime soon. But it feels like it'd only be practical on a very small handful of units or something. Am I wrong?

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1 minute ago, Sunwoo said:

Guys is this really worth arguing about

Yes. Arguments on the internet are serious business.

 

1 minute ago, Sunwoo said:

I only got one Mareeta during my way to the spark (and only one Karin and a random Lethe, this wasn't a good banner for me) so I don't have plans to give away Vital Astra anytime soon. But it feels like it'd only be practical on a very small handful of units or something. Am I wrong?

The damage portion of Vital Astra is already the strongest consistent inheritable 2-cooldown Special in the game for fast units, so it's already practical in that sense. That said, Ruptured Sky is significantly cheaper and isn't too far behind in damage, so there's no rush to upgrade to Vital Astra for just the damage.

The damage reduction is entirely practical on player phase due to the existence of Time's Pulse.

The damage reduction is not practical on enemy phase due to the fact that most units, on average, will not have Vital Astra fully charged at the start of combat more often than they will have it fully charged. This is due to the fact that units are more likely to land a killing blow when their Special activates, meaning the Special will not be fully charged at the start of the next round of combat. The only units where it is practical to rely on the damage reduction on enemy phase are units that have an after-combat Pulse effect, like Ascended Mareeta and Brave Celica.

Overall, Vital Astra is a very good skill as long as the unit has the Spd to do more damage with it than other 2-cooldown Specials. Just make sure to keep in mind when you can and when you can't rely on the damage reduction.

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