New Pokemon Type idea: Wood (yes, seriously)

[Lord_Brand]

I know what you're thinking: "Wood is just Grass!" But that's like saying "Rock is just Ground!" or "Ice is just Water!" Conceptually, Wood and Grass would be related types in much the same vein as Rock and Ground or Water and Ice. But like those types, Wood's interactions with other types could be radically different from its counterpart Grass. After all, Grass generally conveys soft and moist leaves, vines, petals, and fruit, while wood is hard, firm, and dry. If you had a Pokemon based on a wooden object or structure, could it really be called Grass-type?

Here are the type interactions I have in mind for Wood:

• Super effective against: Ground, Electric
• Resisted by: Rock, Steel, Wood
• Resistant to: Ground, Wood, Electric
• Weak to: Fighting, Bug, Steel, Fire

As for existing Pokemon and moves that could become Wood-type:

• Pokemon: Phantump and Trevenant (Ghost/Wood), Grookey, Thwackey, and Rillaboom (Grass/Wood), Hisuian Voltorb and Electrode (Electric/Wood)
• Moves: Wood Hammer, Branch Poke

I even have some new move ideas:

Spoiler

• Barricade
  • Category: Status
  • The user constructs a wooden barricade that protects them and their teammates from non-Flying attacks. The barricade will break after sustaining enough damage. Fire-type attacks will set it ablaze, causing it to take additional damage at the end of each turn. Water-type attacks can extinguish the fire. While the barricade is up, subsequent uses of the move will repair it.
• Bludgeon Branch
  • Category: Physical
  • Contact: No
  • Power: 80
  • The user swings a large tree branch as a makeshift club.
• Kindling
  • Category: Status
  • The user scatters dry wooden sticks all over the ground. If a Fire-type attack is used, the sticks will catch fire, causing a blaze that roasts both sides of the field. Fire-type Pokemon are immune to the blaze.
• Stake Trap
  • Category: Status
  • The user plants wooden stakes in the ground that skewer non-Flying Pokemon who switch in. The stakes can be set ablaze by Fire-type attacks
• Oaken Staff
  • Category: Special
  • Contact: No
  • Power: 40
  • The user strikes with a wooden staff.
• Wooden Sword
  • Category: Physical
  • Contact: No
  • Power: 50
  • The user strikes with a wooden sword.
• Wooden Shield
  • Category: Special
  • The user protects themself with a wooden shield or armor, raising defense by one stage and rendering them immune to Electric-type attacks.

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Dark Holy Elf]

I agree with your logic for Wood being a type, but I'm not sure why Wood would immune Electric? Lightning is quite dangerous to trees, after all, and fallen powerlines can light trees on fire as well.

[King Marth 64]

12 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Here are the type interactions I have in mind for Wood:

• Super effective against: Ground, Electric
• Resisted by: Rock, Steel, Wood
• Immune to: Electric
• Resistant to: Ground, Wood
• Weak to: Fighting, Bug, Steel, Fire

As for existing Pokemon and moves that could become Wood-type:

• Pokemon: Phantump and Trevenant (Ghost/Wood), Grookey, Thwackey, and Rillaboom (Grass/Wood), Hisuian Voltorb and Electrode (Electric/Wood)
• Moves: Wood Hammer, Branch Poke

I don't know about making Wood-type immune to Electric since Lightning does strike down trees and make them to fall. Even sometimes that it causes fire to appear. I definitely do think it would have weak to Eletric attacks instead of being immune to Electric and Super Effective against Electric as well.

Also, I don't know if the other Pokemon such as Sudowoodo and the pre-evolution Bonsly should be counted to be part of the Wood-type Pokemon since the Pokedex did claim Sudowoodo acts like a tree to being avoid captured or being attacked and I did saw it mentioned it's merely a Rock and Stone on Sudowoodo?

Edited March 18, 2022 by King Marth 64

[Lord_Brand]

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I agree with your logic for Wood being a type, but I'm not sure why Wood would immune Electric? Lightning is quite dangerous to trees, after all, and fallen powerlines can light trees on fire as well.

Lightning is also hotter than the surface of the sun and produces a great deal of explosive force. Powerlines ignite trees through sparks, similar to lighting a campfire. Wood doesn't conduct electric currents, however, which is presumably how most Electric-type attacks deal damage.

(Fun fact: pure, distilled water also doesn't conduct electricty. The minerals in water are what's actually electroconductive.)

What would you recommend as Wood's interactions?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Here are the type interactions I have in mind for Wood:

• Super effective against: Ground, Electric
• Resisted by: Rock, Steel, Wood
• Immune to: Electric
• Resistant to: Ground, Wood
• Weak to: Fighting, Bug, Steel, Fire

I like the premise! But having two defensive types (Ground, Wood) immune to one offensive type (Electric) is unprecedented, so I would make Electric a resistance rather than an immunity. I like Wood being weak to Bug and Steel, and Fire makes sense thematically. Still, I would get rid of the Fighting weakness. Fighting is already one of the best offensive types, and Fighting/Steel already share super-effectiveness against Ice and Rock. Otherwise I like the matchups quite well (especially Wood > Electric, as Electric needs another weakness).

8 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

As for existing Pokemon and moves that could become Wood-type:

• Pokemon: Phantump and Trevenant (Ghost/Wood), Grookey, Thwackey, and Rillaboom (Grass/Wood), Hisuian Voltorb and Electrode (Electric/Wood)
• Moves: Wood Hammer, Branch Poke

How about making the Seedot line Wood-type? Seedot is an acorn, and its evolutions appear to be wooden dolls. So Nuzleaf and Shifty could become Wood/Dark. There's an argument for Torterra gaining Wood-type (rather than Ground) in its final stage, too.

Likewise, I could see "Bullet Seed" and "Seed Bomb" becoming Wood-type attacks, since they're based on hard parts of plants (rather than "soft" leaves or vines). Not sure how a special Wood-type attack might look, though.

Regarding new pokemon, how about a Swan crafted from balsa wood? It could be a Wood/Water type that is encountered while surfing. Maybe with Swift Swim as an ability, or Water Absorb. I could see it getting Flying-type moves like Roost and Drill Peck, too.

[vanguard333]

So, basically, "grass" would refer to living plant-life, while wood type would refer to the raw material? That could work, though I'm not sure what Pokémon it would fit. I suppose Sirfetch'd could be changed to wood/fighting since they use a dead leek as a weapon. I suppose maybe Trevenant as well.

 

9 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

As for existing Pokemon and moves that could become Wood-type:

• Pokemon: Phantump and Trevenant (Ghost/Wood), Grookey, Thwackey, and Rillaboom (Grass/Wood), Hisuian Voltorb and Electrode (Electric/Wood)

Oh, yeah; I forgot about the Grookey line; since they use dead branches, that could work. I'm not sure about Hisuian Voltorb though; it doesn't use timber; it just looks like it's made of wood.

 

Another problem I can see is that this would nerf Pokemon like Torterra and Abomasnow by making their strongest grass-type move: wood hammer, no longer grass type, and it's not like those two are in desperate need for more nerfs. I saw the suggestion that Torterra be changed to grass/wood, but I don't think wood type would fit Torterra; Torterra may have a tree on its back, but that's a live tree; Torterra's back is a haven for life and small Pokémon (incidentally, it would've been really cool to actually see a Starly on a Torterra's back in Legends Arceus). Torterra's ground type is because it is essentially a living island with an ecosystem on its back.

[Dark Holy Elf]

5 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Lightning is also hotter than the surface of the sun and produces a great deal of explosive force. Powerlines ignite trees through sparks, similar to lighting a campfire. Wood doesn't conduct electric currents, however, which is presumably how most Electric-type attacks deal damage.

 

This isn't true, live wood and/or wet wood absolutely do conduct electricity. The very fact that lightning heads towards a tree rather than ignoring it (as it would a true insulator) is proof that trees conduct electricity. Dead wood doesn't conduct it well, but it can conduct it: it really only happens with high voltages (such as that of lightning and powerlines): source / other relevant reading

If you want to use dry wood's low conductivity as an argument for electric resistance I think that'd be fair, though intuitively I don't really agree, just because wood gets wet so easily, and because lightning was one of the greatest threats to trees (being the start of most forest fires) before humans came along.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Dark Holy Elf

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Another problem I can see is that this would nerf Pokemon like Torterra and Abomasnow by making their strongest grass-type move: wood hammer, no longer grass type, and it's not like those two are in desperate need for more nerfs. I saw the suggestion that Torterra be changed to grass/wood, but I don't think wood type would fit Torterra; Torterra may have a tree on its back, but that's a live tree; Torterra's back is a haven for life and small Pokémon (incidentally, it would've been really cool to actually see a Starly on a Torterra's back in Legends Arceus). Torterra's ground type is because it is essentially a living island with an ecosystem on its back.

Well Torterra and Abomasnow are fine on the special side, since they can use Giga Drain or Leaf Storm. As for the physical side, Torterra actually gets Leaf Blade in Legends Arceus, so maybe it could keep it in Gen IX, with Abomasnow maybe getting the same? It already gets other Leaf-related moves. As for Torterra's typing, Grass and Ground are admittedly both fitting for it, so I kind of have mixed feelings on disturbing that, even if I still think Wood would work for it (Live trees are made of Wood too, of course...).

Of course, we'd want to think about how this type relates to existing mechanics. Grass-types are immune to Powder moves and Leech Seed - should Wood-types be, as well? I'm inclined to think so, although I'm not sure what effect this might have on balancing. Likewise, Sap Sipper provides a Grass-immunity. Should it grant an immunity to Wood-type moves as well, or would that be overpowered? Finally, Grass Terrain - should it increase the power of Wood-type attacks as well? Tapu Bulu itself seems like a reasonable candidate to become Wood/Fairy, with a wood-inspired design.

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If you want to use dry wood's low conductivity as an argument for electric resistance I think that'd be fair, though intuitively I don't really agree, just because wood gets wet so easily, and because lightning was one of the greatest threats to trees (being the start of most forest fires) before humans came along.

Ironically, this is making me think that a Wood-type Pokemon with Lightningrod would actually be pretty cool thematically. Obviously the immunity is narratively questionable, but it would play off the historical function of trees as "lightning rods".

My personal preference would be for Wood to resist Electric, but making Electric neutral against Wood could work to differentiate Wood further from Grass. I do, however, want offensive Wood being super-effective against Electric to be retained. Electric-types sneaking around with just one weakness has gone on for long enough.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Regarding new pokemon, how about a Swan crafted from balsa wood? It could be a Wood/Water type that is encountered while surfing. Maybe with Swift Swim as an ability, or Water Absorb. I could see it getting Flying-type moves like Roost and Drill Peck, too.

So I've thought about this a little further: perhaps we could get regional variants of Swanna and Ducklett? Say, a "Wooden Mallard" that evolves into a "Swan Boat". Narratively, they'd be explained as Ducklett dolls that were placed into the water (in a region where the species was not present) that mysteriously came to life. They could be Wood/Water, and I think Swift Swim would be an intuitive ability. Similar statlines, except swapping the offensive and defensive stats (so it doesn't hit as hard, but it's bulkier). Also similar moveset to Ducklett and Swanna, but losing the Ice-type coverage for Wood-type options (like Bullet Seed, or your proposed "Stake Trap"). The standard colors could be blue and white, respectively (like Ducklett and Swanna), but Shiny Ducklett could have a mallard-like pattern, while Shiny Swanna would manifest as a "Black Swan".

[Lord_Brand]

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

This isn't true, live wood and/or wet wood absolutely do conduct electricity. The very fact that lightning heads towards a tree rather than ignoring it (as it would a true insulator) is proof that trees conduct electricity. Dead wood doesn't conduct it well, but it can conduct it: it really only happens with high voltages (such as that of lightning and powerlines): source / other relevant reading

If you want to use dry wood's low conductivity as an argument for electric resistance I think that'd be fair, though intuitively I don't really agree, just because wood gets wet so easily, and because lightning was one of the greatest threats to trees (being the start of most forest fires) before humans came along.

By that logic, Grass should be weak to Electric as well, even more justifiably since the moisture in soft green vegetation would make them more conductive. But I think the Pokemon games are operating off of resonance more than reality, like with Water being weak to Electric. Though in that case Steel really ought to be SE against Grass, and maybe Ice against Water.

I'm open to making Wood resistant to Electric rather than outright immune to it.

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I like the premise! But having two defensive types (Ground, Wood) immune to one offensive type (Electric) is unprecedented, so I would make Electric a resistance rather than an immunity. I like Wood being weak to Bug and Steel, and Fire makes sense thematically. Still, I would get rid of the Fighting weakness. Fighting is already one of the best offensive types, and Fighting/Steel already share super-effectiveness against Ice and Rock. Otherwise I like the matchups quite well (especially Wood > Electric, as Electric needs another weakness).

How about making the Seedot line Wood-type? Seedot is an acorn, and its evolutions appear to be wooden dolls. So Nuzleaf and Shifty could become Wood/Dark. There's an argument for Torterra gaining Wood-type (rather than Ground) in its final stage, too.

Likewise, I could see "Bullet Seed" and "Seed Bomb" becoming Wood-type attacks, since they're based on hard parts of plants (rather than "soft" leaves or vines). Not sure how a special Wood-type attack might look, though.

That seems to be the direction Wood is heading towards: resisting Electricity as opposed to outright no-selling it.

The reason I have Fighting as a weakness is because of the whole "break planks of wood with your bare hands" martial arts trope. I mean, if Fighting can beat Ice, Rock, and Steel, why not also Wood?

I've considered those. Thing is, Nuzleaf and Shiftry do have leafy green foliage on them, so I'm torn as to whether they should be Grass or Wood-type. Even Phantump and Trevenant are a tricky call for the same reason. But my intent is that wood is the firm dry counterpart to soft moist Grass, so I guess anything involving hard-shelled seeds could also qualify.

As for a special Wood-type attack, well Grass has had leaf-based special attacks like Magical Leaf before, so maybe a special Wood attack could involve something akin to magic, like my Oaken Staff move.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So I've thought about this a little further: perhaps we could get regional variants of Swanna and Ducklett? Say, a "Wooden Mallard" that evolves into a "Swan Boat". Narratively, they'd be explained as Ducklett dolls that were placed into the water (in a region where the species was not present) that mysteriously came to life. They could be Wood/Water, and I think Swift Swim would be an intuitive ability. Similar statlines, except swapping the offensive and defensive stats (so it doesn't hit as hard, but it's bulkier). Also similar moveset to Ducklett and Swanna, but losing the Ice-type coverage for Wood-type options (like Bullet Seed, or your proposed "Stake Trap"). The standard colors could be blue and white, respectively (like Ducklett and Swanna), but Shiny Ducklett could have a mallard-like pattern, while Shiny Swanna would manifest as a "Black Swan".

That's a neat idea! I could see other "living boat" Pokemon that are Wood/Water too. Maybe a Dragon/Wood Pokemon based on a viking longboat? How about a Wood/Rock or Wood/Steel Pokemon based on a catapult?

Something just occurred to me: how should Grass and Wood interact with each other? Could Grass be super effective against Wood in the same way Ground is to Rock? And what about Poison? Also, a funny thing to think about: Where Ground and Rock are both physical types, and Water and Ice are both special types, Wood and Grass would be split between the two, with Wood being a physical type and Grass a special type.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[vanguard333]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Well Torterra and Abomasnow are fine on the special side, since they can use Giga Drain or Leaf Storm. As for the physical side, Torterra actually gets Leaf Blade in Legends Arceus, so maybe it could keep it in Gen IX, with Abomasnow maybe getting the same? It already gets other Leaf-related moves. As for Torterra's typing, Grass and Ground are admittedly both fitting for it, so I kind of have mixed feelings on disturbing that, even if I still think Wood would work for it (Live trees are made of Wood too, of course...).

Ah; I was interpreting this "wood type" idea as not being about anything alive; simply "wood" as in the raw material. That's why I said that I don't think wood type would work for Torterra, as the tree on its back is alive, whereas for something like Grookey, the stick it uses is just a stick; just a piece of wood.

Anyway, you're right that Torterra does gain leaf blade in Legends Arceus and it could simply keep that. As for Torterra and Abomasnow being fine on the special side, the problem with that is that their special attack stats aren't great; in fact, they're rather bad.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

The reason I have Fighting as a weakness is because of the whole "break planks of wood with your bare hands" martial arts trope. I mean, if Fighting can beat Ice, Rock, and Steel, why not also Wood?

I get that, narratively speaking, but hear me out - splinters. What martial artist is going to want to hit a wood-type Pokemon, when doing so means they'll need to pick painful shards of wood out of their hands for the rest of the match?

Also, from a balancing perspective, offensive Steel suffered in Gens II - V as "Fighting-type, but worse". Only when considering STAB, or against select foes (i.e. Jynx, Aerodactyl, Froslass) would Steel be more effective than a comparable-power Fighting-type move. With the introduction of Fairies in Gen VI, Steel obtained a new niche. Still, it's not exactly a "premier offensive type" outside of that. Giving it another exclusive strength, relative to Fighting (again, one of the best offensive types in the game), could make it more attractive as coverage.

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

I've considered those. Thing is, Nuzleaf and Shiftry do have leafy green foliage on them, so I'm torn as to whether they should be Grass or Wood-type. Even Phantump and Trevenant are a tricky call for the same reason. But my intent is that wood is the firm dry counterpart to soft moist Grass, so I guess anything involving hard-shelled seeds could also qualify.

My paradigm is, when introducing a new Type, edge cases ought to favor the newly-introduced type. Otherwise, we'll end up with a situation where A) Wood-type is severely underrepresented, relative to other types; B) Wood-type is severely overrepresented in the latest generation, in order to "catch up" with existing types, or C) some combination of the two. And it's not as though swapping Nuzleaf and Shiftry would leave the Grass/Dark pairing unrepresented - the very same generation gave us Cacturne, after all!

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

That's a neat idea! I could see other "living boat" Pokemon that are Wood/Water too. Maybe a Dragon/Wood Pokemon based on a viking longboat? How about a Wood/Rock or Wood/Steel Pokemon based on a catapult?

Ooh, I like these. The "longboat" Pokemon could be a fun legendary, or otherwise rare encounter. Maybe the next gen's pseudo-legendary, even.

We could also base more Pokemon off of classic toys. Say, a Wooden Top that learns Rapid Spin, or a Rocking Horse that gets High Horsepower.

2 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Something just occurred to me: how should Grass and Wood interact with each other? Could Grass be super effective against Wood in the same way Ground is to Rock? And what about Poison? Also, a funny thing to think about: Where Ground and Rock are both physical types, and Water and Ice are both special types, Wood and Grass would be split between the two, with Wood being a physical type and Grass a special type.

I would probably keep Poison neutral to Wood. Right now, Grass and Wood share weaknesses to Bug and Fire, and resistances to Ground and Electric. Having them share any more would make the types feel too "samey", in my book. As for Grass > Wood... maybe? I think Grass is already a solid offensive type, and we don't want to saddle Wood with two many weaknesses. I also don't know any thematic reason for it.

54 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Anyway, you're right that Torterra does gain leaf blade in Legends Arceus and it could simply keep that. As for Torterra and Abomasnow being fine on the special side, the problem with that is that their special attack stats aren't great; in fact, they're rather bad.

Torterra leans physical, I will grant, but in Abomasnow's case, its offensive stats are perfectly balanced, both in standard and Mega forms. It's actually a Pokemon that pretty commonly sees mixed sets run, combining perfect-accuracy Blizzards and Giga Drain/Leaf Storm with the likes of Ice Shard and Earthquake.

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Torterra leans physical, I will grant, but in Abomasnow's case, its offensive stats are perfectly balanced, both in standard and Mega forms. It's actually a Pokemon that pretty commonly sees mixed sets run, combining perfect-accuracy Blizzards and Giga Drain/Leaf Storm with the likes of Ice Shard and Earthquake.

Oh, yeah; you're right; I forgot that Abomasnow's attack and special attack are the same. I probably forgot that because I don't really use Abomasnow.

[Lord_Brand]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I get that, narratively speaking, but hear me out - splinters. What martial artist is going to want to hit a wood-type Pokemon, when doing so means they'll need to pick painful shards of wood out of their hands for the rest of the match?

Also, from a balancing perspective, offensive Steel suffered in Gens II - V as "Fighting-type, but worse". Only when considering STAB, or against select foes (i.e. Jynx, Aerodactyl, Froslass) would Steel be more effective than a comparable-power Fighting-type move. With the introduction of Fairies in Gen VI, Steel obtained a new niche. Still, it's not exactly a "premier offensive type" outside of that. Giving it another exclusive strength, relative to Fighting (again, one of the best offensive types in the game), could make it more attractive as coverage.

I mean, if they're strong and tough enough to break rock and metal with their hands, chances are wooden splinters are of little concern to them. :P

I for one feel Steel could do with an advantage against Grass and Dragon. The former is self-explanatory; what do we use to trim the hedges or mow the lawn?  The latter is based on stories of knights battling and slaying dragons. That would be two advantages Steel has that Fighting doesn't.

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My paradigm is, when introducing a new Type, edge cases ought to favor the newly-introduced type. Otherwise, we'll end up with a situation where A) Wood-type is severely underrepresented, relative to other types; B) Wood-type is severely overrepresented in the latest generation, in order to "catch up" with existing types, or C) some combination of the two. And it's not as though swapping Nuzleaf and Shiftry would leave the Grass/Dark pairing unrepresented - the very same generation gave us Cacturne, after all!

Not a bad idea. When suggesting a new type, first thing I do after coming up with the type interactions is to look for existing Pokemon and moves that can reasonably fit into that type, like I did with Beast, Mage, and Light.

Funnily enough, I did consider making Needle Arm Wood, but seeing as that's Cacnea and Cacturn's signature move and they don't feel especially Wooden, I'd opt not to.

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, I like these. The "longboat" Pokemon could be a fun legendary, or otherwise rare encounter. Maybe the next gen's pseudo-legendary, even.

We could also base more Pokemon off of classic toys. Say, a Wooden Top that learns Rapid Spin, or a Rocking Horse that gets High Horsepower.

Hmm, a dragon boat for a Scandinavian region, maybe?

Loving the toy idea!

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I would probably keep Poison neutral to Wood. Right now, Grass and Wood share weaknesses to Bug and Fire, and resistances to Ground and Electric. Having them share any more would make the types feel too "samey", in my book. As for Grass > Wood... maybe? I think Grass is already a solid offensive type, and we don't want to saddle Wood with two many weaknesses. I also don't know any thematic reason for it.

I'm mostly thinking of how certain kinds of plants can parasitize trees, as well as how fungi (currently associated with the Grass-type) can grow on trees and logs.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh, yeah; you're right; I forgot that Abomasnow's attack and special attack are the same. I probably forgot that because I don't really use Abomasnow.

Ah, what a shame. I think it's got a really cool offensive typing, paired with being the first Mon to offer Snow Warning. Then again, it's held back by low Speed and a trash defensive typing. Mega Abomasnow can be fun in Trick Room, at least.

3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

I for one feel Steel could do with an advantage against Grass and Dragon. The former is self-explanatory; what do we use to trim the hedges or mow the lawn?  The latter is based on stories of knights battling and slaying dragons. That would be two advantages Steel has that Fighting doesn't.

So, Grass is currently weak to Ice, Flying, Poison, Bug, and Fire. That's more weaknesses than Ice (widely recognized as the worst defensive typing in the game) and tied with Rock. Grass doesn't need any more weaknesses.

As for "Steel > Dragon", I could see it. But if we keep "Fighting > Wood", then it wouldn't do anything to fix that "Steel and Fighting are both super-effective against the same 3 types". That's more overlap than I'm personally comfortable with.

3 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

I'm mostly thinking of how certain kinds of plants can parasitize trees, as well as how fungi (currently associated with the Grass-type) can grow on trees and logs.

I... get what you're saying. But fungi can also infect other plants (i.e. rye ergot), yet Grass self-resists. Conversely, trees can block grasses and other plants from sunlight, sometimes inhibiting their growth. So I'd keep the relationship a neutral one.

Maybe Wood-types should become vulnerable to Leech Seed and powder moves? But that would seem like a strict negative for the likes of Trevenant, and other Mons who get switched over.

[Jotari]

There's already 18 pokemon types, I don't really see much of a need to add any more. What would Wood be accomplishing? Fairy had a pretty clear role in the game as a counter play to Dragons which had become too dominant, and even back when Steel and Dark were introduced they had some function in countering Gen 1's OP psychic types. Wood would be super effective against Ground and Electric...for reasons. I suppose Electric only has one weakness so could do with another, only Electric's one weakness is to the most common offensive attack in the game (which is simultaneously balanced by dealing no damage to the most common secondary typing in the games). Pokemon's typing is good, I would even say really good. They've managed to strike a really nice balance of a lot of different types that interplay well together. If a new type is to be added it shouldn't be done just for the sake of it, it should have a clear function and role to play in the dichotomy of the battle system as a whole.

And honestly from the start Rock and Ground probably should have been the same thing.

[Lightcosmo]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

There's already 18 pokemon types, I don't really see much of a need to add any more

Couldnt you argue this about when they added Fairy? Wasnt 17 enough? 

On topic, is like the idea, Pokemon could always use more diversity! I dont have anything to add, but I like reading these types of threads!

[Lord_Brand]

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

So, Grass is currently weak to Ice, Flying, Poison, Bug, and Fire. That's more weaknesses than Ice (widely recognized as the worst defensive typing in the game) and tied with Rock. Grass doesn't need any more weaknesses.

As for "Steel > Dragon", I could see it. But if we keep "Fighting > Wood", then it wouldn't do anything to fix that "Steel and Fighting are both super-effective against the same 3 types". That's more overlap than I'm personally comfortable with.

Does it break the game if Fighting has six advantages? Or Grass having six weaknesses? Or Fighting and Steel sharing three advantages? Does that approach "Gen 1 Psychic-type" levels of broken?

There was a time when Fighting was only SE against three types, same as Fire, while Ground was SE against four (Gen 1, granted, but still). If we look at adding new types to the game, it stands to reason that over time the number of advantages will grow. My Beast Type would give Steel an extra SE as well, which in combination with my proposed SE against Grass and Dragon would give it eight SEs (Rock, Ice, Beast, Wood, Grass, Ice, Dragon, Fairy). But then Steel is also highly weak to the popular Fighting, Ground, and Fire types, and it's resisted by Fire, Water, and Electric. All this combined would make Steel a highly interactive type with plenty of neutral interactions left over.

They've also taken away SEs before; maybe Fighting could lose its SE against Normal to make room for Wood? Granted, in my ideal Pokemon system, the Normal type as we know it wouldn't really exist; the Beast type would cover the more animalistic aspects while the non-animalistic moves and concepts could be given to other types or receive new types of their own. I do acknowledge the value of a "neutral" type, but in practice Normal isn't really truly Neutral as it's weak to Fighting and shares a mutual immunity to Ghost (though I'm starting to debate the necessity of type immunity in Pokemon as a whole, as certain spinoffs have eschewed it in favor of a simple "SE-Neutral-NVE" hierarchy), not to mention is resisted by Rock and Steel.

I just don't see a need to apply an arbitrary number to a particular type. There are ways you can balance out high levels of advantages or weaknesses, like how Rock/Steel types got Sturdy to mitigate the fact they're weak to two of the game's best offense types.

If a given type's number of interactions really does become too great, they could theoretically "split" that type into two different but related types. Maybe Fighting for example could split off into a "hero" or "warrior" type that inherits the advantage against Dark-types while leaving Fighting with the advantages against Rock, Ice, and Steel (and maybe Wood :P ). Light could also take over as the primary Dark-type counter (and yes, I'm aware that the Dark-type doesn't refer to literal darkness but rather "evil" or underhandedness, which Fighting is supposed to counter by merit of being honorable; the honor aspect could transfer to Hero, Warrior, or Light while Fighting itself focuses on pure martial prowess).

Some types don't have enough interactions, like Ice and Dragon. I'm all for those types gaining more interactions accordingly. Like, maybe Dragon can SE something besides itself? My Beast type would be one good candidate, as dragons are often shown preying upon sheep and other livestock. Heck, you could make an argument in favor of Dragon being SE against Normal, since dragons often terrorize common villagers and other folk who would be considered examples of the Normal-type (not to mention currently Normal-type Pokemon such as Wooloo). Likewise, I've long thought Ice should SE Water, not be resisted by it.

My brother has suggested that Ice become SE against Electric, for ice is apparently a good insulator against electricity.

For that matter, I think they could restore Poison's SE against Bugs; poison is a common weapon against bugs in real life, both by humans and by bugs themselves. You can also make cases for Poison beating Flying and Water, as creatures in those habitats are highly vulnerable to pollution. Heck, given how the dragon-like Orochi was intoxicated by Susanoo, you could even make an argument that Poison should be effective against Dragon! That many advantages would greatly swell Poison's role in the metagame, beyond what its SE against Fairy already does for it. It really makes no sense that Poison is only SE against two types.

On the flip side, I think I would remove Steel's resistances to Psychic and Ice. Psychics are often shown to be capable of bending spoons and such, so I'd make them neutral in the same way Ghost is. Ice can pose a threat to metal pipes by causing them to burst, and metal is highly receptive to changes in temperature. I'd also suggest giving Steel a weakness to Electric, since most types of metal are highly electroconductive (that's the logic we're using for Electric > Water, right?). That should help counterbalance the extra SE I'd give Steel.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

There's already 18 pokemon types, I don't really see much of a need to add any more. What would Wood be accomplishing? Fairy had a pretty clear role in the game as a counter play to Dragons which had become too dominant, and even back when Steel and Dark were introduced they had some function in countering Gen 1's OP psychic types. Wood would be super effective against Ground and Electric...for reasons. I suppose Electric only has one weakness so could do with another, only Electric's one weakness is to the most common offensive attack in the game (which is simultaneously balanced by dealing no damage to the most common secondary typing in the games). Pokemon's typing is good, I would even say really good. They've managed to strike a really nice balance of a lot of different types that interplay well together. If a new type is to be added it shouldn't be done just for the sake of it, it should have a clear function and role to play in the dichotomy of the battle system as a whole.

And honestly from the start Rock and Ground probably should have been the same thing.

Why can a type not be added just because it seems like a cool thing to add? Mega Evolutions and Dynamaxing weren't fixes to the metagame, but they were still justified as being the cool new thing their generations were doing. Shoot, most every type exists in order to capture some kind of resonant trope for the sake of an RPG with an engaging rock-paper-scissors dynamic. I don't see how Wood or any other new type takes away from that.

How would this theoretical Rock-and-Ground-combined type interact with other types? Super effective against Flying, or ineffective against it? SE against Ice and Steel, or weak to them? SE and immune to Electric, or neutral both ways? It's not as though Rock and Ground are interchangeable with one another, each plays different roles.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Lord_Brand

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

59 minutes ago, Lord_Brand said:

They've also taken away SEs before; maybe Fighting could lose its SE against Normal to make room for Wood?

I would certainly oppose such a change. Not only would it serve to make offensive Fighting and Steel more similar, but it would also make Normal, already a pretty good defensive type, into one of the best defensive types in the game. Imagine, a fat Mon like Snorlax or Porygon 2 with literally no weaknesses.

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

My brother has suggested that Ice become SE against Electric, for ice is apparently a good insulator against electricity.

Ice is already a really good offensive type, so I wouldn't make it super-effective against anything else. On the other hand, it's the single-worst defensive type, so having Ice resist Electric is a change I might be on board with.

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

For that matter, I think they could restore Poison's SE against Bugs; poison is a common weapon against bugs in real life, both by humans and by bugs themselves.

I like this in-lore, but that means Grass and Bug suddenly share three weaknesses: to Fire, Flying, and now Poison. Not a fan of making Parasect 4x weak to three types.

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

You can also make cases for Poison beating Flying and Water, as creatures in those habitats are highly vulnerable to pollution.

Now we're talking! Water is a great defensive type, only being weak to Grass and Electric (and Freeze-dry, technically). It's due another weakness.

Poison > Flying, I could go either way on. Defensive Flying feels pretty well-balanced now as-is.

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

On the flip side, I think I would remove Steel's resistances to Psychic and Ice. Psychics are often shown to be capable of bending spoons and such, so I'd make them neutral in the same way Ghost is. Ice can pose a threat to metal pipes by causing them to burst, and metal is highly receptive to changes in temperature. I'd also suggest giving Steel a weakness to Electric, since most types of metal are highly electroconductive (that's the logic we're using for Electric > Water, right?). That should help counterbalance the extra SE I'd give Steel.

I'm here for it. Psychic is one of the worst offensive types around, so removing Steel's resistance to it will give Mons like Gardevoir and Hatterene some breathing room. Offensive Ice, again, is good already, so I wouldn't buff it. Electric, I could go either way on. I can't say I would cry over Steel gaining another weakness, though.

1 hour ago, Lord_Brand said:

Does it break the game if Fighting has six advantages? Or Grass having six weaknesses? Or Fighting and Steel sharing three advantages? Does that approach "Gen 1 Psychic-type" levels of broken?

The problem with Fighting and Steel sharing three advantages is, it makes them redundant. Like, if I have a Fighting-type Mon, and they have a Steel-type attack option, then I should have a reason to consider adding it to the moveset. Before Gen VI, this only happened in niche cases (i.e. Jynx, Froslass). Gen VI added Fairies, giving offensive Steel more uses (while still keeping it a rather middling offensive type IMO). Giving it another unique advantage (relative to Fighting) could help it stand out further, and make adding the move more "worth it".

As for Grass, I don't think it's out of line to ask that one of the worst defensive types in the game not be burdened with another weakness. Like, if Grass had immunities and a bunch more resistances, then it could probably be "balanced" even with 6 or more weaknesses. But that's not the game it inhabits.

[Jotari]

18 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Couldnt you argue this about when they added Fairy? Wasnt 17 enough? 

On topic, is like the idea, Pokemon could always use more diversity! I dont have anything to add, but I like reading these types of threads!

Did you not read the rest of my comment....

17 hours ago, Lord_Brand said:

Does it break the game if Fighting has six advantages? Or Grass having six weaknesses? Or Fighting and Steel sharing three advantages? Does that approach "Gen 1 Psychic-type" levels of broken?

There was a time when Fighting was only SE against three types, same as Fire, while Ground was SE against four (Gen 1, granted, but still). If we look at adding new types to the game, it stands to reason that over time the number of advantages will grow. My Beast Type would give Steel an extra SE as well, which in combination with my proposed SE against Grass and Dragon would give it eight SEs (Rock, Ice, Beast, Wood, Grass, Ice, Dragon, Fairy). But then Steel is also highly weak to the popular Fighting, Ground, and Fire types, and it's resisted by Fire, Water, and Electric. All this combined would make Steel a highly interactive type with plenty of neutral interactions left over.

They've also taken away SEs before; maybe Fighting could lose its SE against Normal to make room for Wood? Granted, in my ideal Pokemon system, the Normal type as we know it wouldn't really exist; the Beast type would cover the more animalistic aspects while the non-animalistic moves and concepts could be given to other types or receive new types of their own. I do acknowledge the value of a "neutral" type, but in practice Normal isn't really truly Neutral as it's weak to Fighting and shares a mutual immunity to Ghost (though I'm starting to debate the necessity of type immunity in Pokemon as a whole, as certain spinoffs have eschewed it in favor of a simple "SE-Neutral-NVE" hierarchy), not to mention is resisted by Rock and Steel.

I just don't see a need to apply an arbitrary number to a particular type. There are ways you can balance out high levels of advantages or weaknesses, like how Rock/Steel types got Sturdy to mitigate the fact they're weak to two of the game's best offense types.

If a given type's number of interactions really does become too great, they could theoretically "split" that type into two different but related types. Maybe Fighting for example could split off into a "hero" or "warrior" type that inherits the advantage against Dark-types while leaving Fighting with the advantages against Rock, Ice, and Steel (and maybe Wood 😛). Light could also take over as the primary Dark-type counter (and yes, I'm aware that the Dark-type doesn't refer to literal darkness but rather "evil" or underhandedness, which Fighting is supposed to counter by merit of being honorable; the honor aspect could transfer to Hero, Warrior, or Light while Fighting itself focuses on pure martial prowess).

Some types don't have enough interactions, like Ice and Dragon. I'm all for those types gaining more interactions accordingly. Like, maybe Dragon can SE something besides itself? My Beast type would be one good candidate, as dragons are often shown preying upon sheep and other livestock. Heck, you could make an argument in favor of Dragon being SE against Normal, since dragons often terrorize common villagers and other folk who would be considered examples of the Normal-type (not to mention currently Normal-type Pokemon such as Wooloo). Likewise, I've long thought Ice should SE Water, not be resisted by it.

My brother has suggested that Ice become SE against Electric, for ice is apparently a good insulator against electricity.

For that matter, I think they could restore Poison's SE against Bugs; poison is a common weapon against bugs in real life, both by humans and by bugs themselves. You can also make cases for Poison beating Flying and Water, as creatures in those habitats are highly vulnerable to pollution. Heck, given how the dragon-like Orochi was intoxicated by Susanoo, you could even make an argument that Poison should be effective against Dragon! That many advantages would greatly swell Poison's role in the metagame, beyond what its SE against Fairy already does for it. It really makes no sense that Poison is only SE against two types.

On the flip side, I think I would remove Steel's resistances to Psychic and Ice. Psychics are often shown to be capable of bending spoons and such, so I'd make them neutral in the same way Ghost is. Ice can pose a threat to metal pipes by causing them to burst, and metal is highly receptive to changes in temperature. I'd also suggest giving Steel a weakness to Electric, since most types of metal are highly electroconductive (that's the logic we're using for Electric > Water, right?). That should help counterbalance the extra SE I'd give Steel.

Why can a type not be added just because it seems like a cool thing to add? Mega Evolutions and Dynamaxing weren't fixes to the metagame, but they were still justified as being the cool new thing their generations were doing. Shoot, most every type exists in order to capture some kind of resonant trope for the sake of an RPG with an engaging rock-paper-scissors dynamic. I don't see how Wood or any other new type takes away from that.

How would this theoretical Rock-and-Ground-combined type interact with other types? Super effective against Flying, or ineffective against it? SE against Ice and Steel, or weak to them? SE and immune to Electric, or neutral both ways? It's not as though Rock and Ground are interchangeable with one another, each plays different roles.

Because things shouldn't be done just for the sake of doing it in game design  it needs to have a role. Megaevolutions did have a role. They were essentially new pokemon each and the limit of one per team influenced how teams were built (they also allowed older Pokemon who had been power crept to get back in on the scene). There's loads of types you could make up for pokemon. Wood, light, machine, sound, steam, space, nuclear and so on. But pokemon isn't some kind of attempt to categorize all classical elements, it's a gameplay system with each type having a defined role in that system.

16 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I would certainly oppose such a change. Not only would it serve to make offensive Fighting and Steel more similar, but it would also make Normal, already a pretty good defensive type, into one of the best defensive types in the game. Imagine, a fat Mon like Snorlax or Porygon 2 with literally no weaknesses.

Ice is already a really good offensive type, so I wouldn't make it super-effective against anything else. On the other hand, it's the single-worst defensive type, so having Ice resist Electric is a change I might be on board with.

I like this in-lore, but that means Grass and Bug suddenly share three weaknesses: to Fire, Flying, and now Poison. Not a fan of making Parasect 4x weak to three types.

Now we're talking! Water is a great defensive type, only being weak to Grass and Electric (and Freeze-dry, technically). It's due another weakness.

Poison > Flying, I could go either way on. Defensive Flying feels pretty well-balanced now as-is.

I'm here for it. Psychic is one of the worst offensive types around, so removing Steel's resistance to it will give Mons like Gardevoir and Hatterene some breathing room. Offensive Ice, again, is good already, so I wouldn't buff it. Electric, I could go either way on. I can't say I would cry over Steel gaining another weakness, though.

The problem with Fighting and Steel sharing three advantages is, it makes them redundant. Like, if I have a Fighting-type Mon, and they have a Steel-type attack option, then I should have a reason to consider adding it to the moveset. Before Gen VI, this only happened in niche cases (i.e. Jynx, Froslass). Gen VI added Fairies, giving offensive Steel more uses (while still keeping it a rather middling offensive type IMO). Giving it another unique advantage (relative to Fighting) could help it stand out further, and make adding the move more "worth it".

As for Grass, I don't think it's out of line to ask that one of the worst defensive types in the game not be burdened with another weakness. Like, if Grass had immunities and a bunch more resistances, then it could probably be "balanced" even with 6 or more weaknesses. But that's not the game it inhabits.

I would have made normal super effective against fairy. Fairies feel like their weakness are too niche and normal quite literally has no super effective damage. Plus you get the whole idea of the mundane reality (like hyper beams XD) beating the super natural.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Jotari

[Lightcosmo]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Did you not read the rest of my comment..

All your doing there is justifying it when its convenient for you, though. There are plenty of other ways they could have addressed that.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

I would have made normal super effective against fairy. Fairies feel like their weakness are too niche and normal quite literally has no super effective damage. Plus you get the whole idea of the mundane reality (like hyper beams XD) beating the super natural.

I remember thinking the same upon Fairy's introduction. It's been one of the better defensive typings since coming onto the scene. And Normal is the single-worst offensive typing, to the point that numerous abilities are about turning Normal-type moves into some other type.

Then again, Normal does include certain high-power, no-drawback moves, like Return/Frustration and Boomburst. Not to mention, everyone and their mother has access to Normal-type attacks. Would giving them super-effectiveness against another type break the existing "balance"? I'm not sure, really.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

All your doing there is justifying it when its convenient for you, though. There are plenty of other ways they could have addressed that.

I literally don't know what you're saying here. In case something was lost, I already addressed the introduction of fairy in my original comment, that's what I meant by my "Did you not read the rest of my comment" comment.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I remember thinking the same upon Fairy's introduction. It's been one of the better defensive typings since coming onto the scene. And Normal is the single-worst offensive typing, to the point that numerous abilities are about turning Normal-type moves into some other type.

Then again, Normal does include certain high-power, no-drawback moves, like Return/Frustration and Boomburst. Not to mention, everyone and their mother has access to Normal-type attacks. Would giving them super-effectiveness against another type break the existing "balance"? I'm not sure, really.

It would be a massive nerf to fairies, but I'm a simp for dragons so I would be okay with that.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Jotari

[Lightcosmo]

41 minutes ago, Jotari said:

literally don't know what you're saying here. In case something was lost, I already addressed the introduction of fairy in my original comment, that's what I meant by my "Did you not read the rest of my comment" comment.

What i'm saying is: "why should you be bothered by TC's idea when you could argue adding in Fairy was equally as unnecessary by your standards"? They could have balanced Dragon type pokemon BST instead of adding a new type, easily.

[Jotari]

15 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

What i'm saying is: "why should you be bothered by TC's idea when you could argue adding in Fairy was equally as unnecessary by your standards"? They could have balanced Dragon type pokemon BST instead of adding a new type, easily.

I'm not bothered by the idea of wood Pokemon. You overestimate my emotional involvement there. And yes, they could have balanced dragons in other ways. But Fairies were a good method for counteracting dragons. What does Wood add that Sound, Angel, Space or Nuclear wouldn't? If there is a niche missing in Pokemon's typing system then sure, add another type. But I don't see a particular need for one here and adding it without due consideration as to how it will actually affect the interconnected elements of the game will result in far more problems than benefits. There's a reason they add a bunch of new Pokemon every title but barely ever add an extra type. Give me a reason to have Wood type in the game that isn't "Because it's technically different from grass".

Edited March 20, 2022 by Jotari

[Lightcosmo]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

without due consideration as to how it will actually affect the interconnected elements of the game will result in far more problems than benefits

Im gonna doubt the devs think this far in, if they did, the game would be balanced. Xd

See: Gen1 Psychic type, which was overpowered under the premise "psychic is supreme" no other logic needed apparantly.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Give me a reason to have Wood type in the game that isn't "Because it's technically different from grass".

They separated rock and ground just fine, im sure applying the same here isnt that difficult.