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More countries and "types" of wars should be in FE


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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I believe Sacae was inspired by the nomadic steppes of Mongolia and the various -stans.

Sacae is another spelling of "Saka". Which was a subgroup of the Scythians. They would've resided in some the modern -stans and much further to the west, but Mongolia is too far to the east of their likely territory.

The Scythians dominated its portion Central Eurasia during much of Antiquity, all those famed Greek city-states like Athens and Sparta knew about them. As with the traditional cycle of steppe peoples, they eventually declined when new ethnic groups came to dominate, although they likely weren't entirely eradicated and instead assimilated into the new group. The term "Scythian" itself was sometimes applied by the non-nomadic peoples whom they interacted with to mean Central Eurasians in general. Not much is actually known about the Scythians, being that they themselves didn't write anything down like settled agricultural kingdoms and empires, and that they didn't build great lasting structures of stone, living in lightweight biodegradable tents as nomads do. All we have is some jewelry, some other metallurgical items, and the burial mounds where they placed their bodies and grave goods. We also have the writings of their non-nomadic neighbors, which can be lacking in the detail we desire and biased with exoticism and anti-nomadism.

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5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I believe Sacae was inspired by the nomadic steppes of Mongolia and the various -stans. Looking back, it's kind of a shame that even the Sacae-centric Lyn Mode gave us very few Sacaean characters (Lyn, Rath, and... is that it?). So we don't interact with the setting or its residents to any great extent.

Well we do get lectures on their military tribal culture in Binding Blade alongside seeing their yurts (or whatever specific term is for those style of tents) but also confirming that theu do have walled cities. And the actual list of Sacean playable characters isn't exactly small. Sue, Sin, Guy, Karel, Rath, Lyn herself (was Fir raised in Sacae?). What we do lack is a proper Sacean villain (this goes for Ilia too), the bosses we face there are rather generic and forgettable. Personally I think Karel should have been an out and out villain you face in the prequel rather than some random psychopath everyone is just cool having around.

Ultimately I think they did a good job of Sacae. They really couldn't have done much more to show off the country without having the plot revolve more around it. For what it is, an optional area, they did a decent job. Could Lyn mode have been that story specifically revolving around Sacae? Yeah, it could have been, but they chose to focus on the other aspect of her heritage and what we did get with her treasonous uncle (whom she would have let rule anyway) was a perfectly serviceable story, so I don't really see any lost oppertunity there.

Edited by Jotari
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On 3/25/2022 at 2:09 PM, Acacia Sgt said:

I'd say that is the closest we can get to what we know as Terrorism. The term was born to describe France's situation during Robespierre, as he was said to have unleashed a Terror upon Europe, his government was labeled a Dictatorship and Reign of Terror, and his supporters (or at least just the irregulars of the army) as Terrorists. Usually it's not used retroactively to the past.

Simply put, Terrorism is beyond FE's usual adapted time frames. The closest could be, arguably, Edelgard, since she is kinda Robespierre-ish.

You're conflating the "Reign of Terror" with "Terrorism" but they're pretty different.  When people talk about terrorism, they generally mean low-level domestic warfare - murders, assassinations, sabotage, etc. where the goal is generally for a weaker but fanatical force to terrorize a larger but "softer" foe, hoping that people decide that they'd rather retire rather than risk being the local Empire Tax Collector or the like.  What the French Republic did was just normal government oppression - governments killing people they think oppose them.  It's both very old, and it's not usually called terrorism directly (even if intimidation / terror may be involved).  That's been happening since Hammurabi.  (And the French Revolution honestly wasn't even that much worse about this kind of killing than normal - just it scandalized all the royalist writers of the era because they saw it as average, unspecial common people betraying the Best And Brightest in a frenzy of envy or something, and the Republic did their executions very publicly to send a message.)

Anyway, even for "normal" terrorism, that isn't a recent invention either.  For one pretty clear example from the 1st century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii

The main thing that is different in "ancient" terrorism is that 18th and 19th century nationalism isn't really a thing yet.  This tends to mean that the force binding your band of terrorists together is probably religion instead, so prepare for Yet Another Evil Cult plot if you do this in ancient fiction.  Settings analogous to later time periods can mix this up more, of course. 

Of course, the other problem for Fire Emblem specifically is that Actual Terrorists don't really want to actually fight straight-up - they're more about just surprise murder, traditionally.  You don't assault the palace directly, you kill the local tax collector while he's out shopping or something.  Not great if the PC force is supposed to be fighting them since they simply won't be there "in time".  If the PC force are pseudo-terrorists themselves but they're fighting pitched battles Fire Emblem style (and not being super villainous about it), that's probably more like guerilla warfare than terrorism.

--

Also, agree with others in this thread that Elibe in FE6/FE7 was surprisingly good in both diversity of government systems and some reasonable problems that they might have...  for all that it throws some of this away with really one-note "hello Roy we are bad rebels you can kill us without feeling any qualms of conscience" assholes, even when they're objectively pursuing goals that are reasonable (e.g. peace out of a losing war, like the castle that ineffectively ambushes Roy in C5 or so).

I also agree that, unfortunately, the conquest of the Americas sees "Fire Emblemy" battles due to superior equipment, tactics, and training (which may cloud over the fact that this doesn't mean that it was moral or just...).  There's some battles in the conquest of the Incas where, Fire Emblem style, the Spanish armor is just too good and all the Incan sling bullets bounce off it dealing 0 damage, defense was too high.  At the Battle of Vilcaconga, ~800 or so Incas charge a tired Spanish force of just 40 men around dusk and have superior positioning (just like those FE maps where they stick you at the bottom of a hill and restrict your visibility).  Unusually, the Spanish actually do take some losses...  5 of them.  Probably 100 Incas die.  That really is a FE map gone wrong since in other battles, the Spanish essentially lose nobody (important since they were badly outnumbered).  Of course, if you actually did this kind of setting in an FE game, choose your poison: either you have a villain simulator (which is going to be much less popular, people like to play as the good guys) or you end up with a potential imperialism justification simulator if you depict the force being conquered as just super-evil that needed a good conquering.

Edited by SnowFire
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33 minutes ago, SnowFire said:

Anyway, even for "normal" terrorism, that isn't a recent invention either.  For one pretty clear example from the 1st century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii

The main thing that is different in "ancient" terrorism is that 18th and 19th century nationalism isn't really a thing yet.  This tends to mean that the force binding your band of terrorists together is probably religion instead, so prepare for Yet Another Evil Cult plot if you do this in ancient fiction.  Settings analogous to later time periods can mix this up more, of course. 

That's one small thing Thracia did with its evil cult that is surprisingly absent in other games, even Genealogy which Thracia spun off from. In Thracia the minor lopt villains you face actually talk about Loptyr as a god, like they talk about him saving their soul and giving their life for his new age. They actually sound like fanatics, like people you couldn't reason with because their worldview is so completely divergent. Unlike in most games where the cult is just made up of a bunch of assholes in robes, or literally brainwashed people. For as much as it loves evil cults, Fire Emblem doesn't do much when it comes to actually looking at the mindset of a cult.

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ultimately I think they did a good job of Sacae.

there is yurts, that a good point... but not enough carpets, drapes or intricate-pattern embroidery. still doesnt meet my suggestion. War of hand-sewing fashion i say!

im a bit biased because of certain manga that beautifully depict life in pre-modern central asia while still historically and culturally correct afaik.

4 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Anyway, even for "normal" terrorism, that isn't a recent invention either.  For one pretty clear example from the 1st century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii

The main thing that is different in "ancient" terrorism is that 18th and 19th century nationalism isn't really a thing yet.  This tends to mean that the force binding your band of terrorists together is probably religion instead, so prepare for Yet Another Evil Cult plot if you do this in ancient fiction.  Settings analogous to later time periods can mix this up more, of course. 

always nice to see that someone did their homework in history. terrorism is hardly a modern things, and people are quick to label it when its not really that.

I am also tired of this pattern of having a cult can only mean a super duper evil vilain group that must eradicated and thats it. suddenly all those death tolls are irrelevant like killing pest in agriculture.

a bit more of subvert of usual trope for FE plot will be interesting imo.

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11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Sacae is another spelling of "Saka". Which was a subgroup of the Scythians. They would've resided in some the modern -stans and much further to the west, but Mongolia is too far to the east of their likely territory.

Interesting, I did not understand these details. To my best awareness, Central Asia was the heartland of horse domestication. Explaining why there are so many mounted units in and from Sacae.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well we do get lectures on their military tribal culture in Binding Blade alongside seeing their yurts (or whatever specific term is for those style of tents) but also confirming that theu do have walled cities. And the actual list of Sacean playable characters isn't exactly small. Sue, Sin, Guy, Karel, Rath, Lyn herself (was Fir raised in Sacae?). What we do lack is a proper Sacean villain (this goes for Ilia too), the bosses we face there are rather generic and forgettable. Personally I think Karel should have been an out and out villain you face in the prequel rather than some random psychopath everyone is just cool having around.

Is Rutger fron Sacae? I know he's half-Sacaean, half-Bernese by blood. I guess there are a few, although I don't think it's as many as we get from the other major countries.

Anyway, enemy Karel could've been fun. If Lyn's Mode had a Lunatic (Lynatic?) difficulty, we could've seen him show up after too many turns, Galzus-style, to threaten the player's army.

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Ultimately I think they did a good job of Sacae. They really couldn't have done much more to show off the country without having the plot revolve more around it. For what it is, an optional area, they did a decent job. Could Lyn mode have been that story specifically revolving around Sacae? Yeah, it could have been, but they chose to focus on the other aspect of her heritage and what we did get with her treasonous uncle (whom she would have let rule anyway) was a perfectly serviceable story, so I don't really see any lost oppertunity there.

Well, the story takes place in a geographic continuum from Sacae to Caelin. She faces a handful of Sacaen enemies, but no notable NPCs or allies. She doesn't even meet Rath until she's in Lycia. We do get some bits of lore, with the Mani Katti and their animist beliefs, but the country just feels kind of empty (maybe the intent?).

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1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Is Rutger fron Sacae? I know he's half-Sacaean, half-Bernese by blood. I guess there are a few, although I don't think it's as many as we get from the other major countries.

He is. In fact, his mixed heritage is the reason why the Bernese spared him when they attacked his home. Because he looked enough Bernese they thought he was one of their own.

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well we do get lectures on their military tribal culture in Binding Blade alongside seeing their yurts (or whatever specific term is for those style of tents) but also confirming that theu do have walled cities.

Which does make sense.

Ulugh_Beg_Madrasa_(220363337).jpeg

Behold the beauty of the historical (and modern) city of Samarkand! Now in modern Uzbekistan.

The Central Eurasian steppes might have been dominated by nomads and possessing soils more suited to be pasturelands than farmlands, but, there are places over the vast regions where settled agriculture did take hold and flourish, particularly along river valleys. Giving rise to non-nomadic cultures that coexisted with their horse-heavy Central Eurasian compatriots in both war and peace. Since farming means you can't roam around, those farmers and those who ruled over them did build cities with glorious architecture.

So, if Sacae were 100% nomads, it would do the full history of Central Eurasia a bit of a disservice. Having a city here and there is more accurate.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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Bulgar is stated to be something of a trading hub, and it is straddling the Sacae-Bernese border after all. Which is why there are mixed unions like Rutger's parents.

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3 hours ago, joevar said:

there is yurts, that a good point... but not enough carpets, drapes or intricate-pattern embroidery. still doesnt meet my suggestion. War of hand-sewing fashion i say!

im a bit biased because of certain manga that beautifully depict life in pre-modern central asia while still historically and culturally correct afaik.

Well Lyn managed to have some pretty nice drapes in her own little tent despite recently having suffered the genocide of her tribe.

CG01.png

And while it can't be used as evidence in favour of the game, the fact that I remember this scene as showing more carpets and the like than it actually has kind of indicates that, to me at least, they did convey that sort of culture well in the gestalt.

Quote

always nice to see that someone did their homework in history. terrorism is hardly a modern things, and people are quick to label it when its not really that.

I am also tired of this pattern of having a cult can only mean a super duper evil vilain group that must eradicated and thats it. suddenly all those death tolls are irrelevant like killing pest in agriculture.

a bit more of subvert of usual trope for FE plot will be interesting imo.

I really wish they tried a bit harder to make the Agarthans that very subversion. Because I honestly think they would have been the ones best fit to lead Fodlan into a new era due to their tech. They could have been the "good intentions, evil methods" crowd, but they decided to shift all semblance of that (and I'll stress semblance) onto Edelgard and used the Agarthans as an evil for free card with their ultimate motivation just being to rule the world for the sake of power without any ideological grounding.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Interesting, I did not understand these details. To my best awareness, Central Asia was the heartland of horse domestication. Explaining why there are so many mounted units in and from Sacae.

Is Rutger fron Sacae? I know he's half-Sacaean, half-Bernese by blood. I guess there are a few, although I don't think it's as many as we get from the other major countries.

Ah yes, Rutger. I knew I was forgetting someone.

Quote

Anyway, enemy Karel could've been fun. If Lyn's Mode had a Lunatic (Lynatic?) difficulty, we could've seen him show up after too many turns, Galzus-style, to threaten the player's army.

They could have used Karel as the one to wipe out Lyn's tribe and have a personal rivalry with, rather than a random group of bandits we never actually come across. Blame it on the mysterious swordsman (and a cabal of followers that have risen up around his myth so he has fodder), toss him at the heroes in two or three chapters of the game, bada bing bada boom, Lyn has something to do in the main plot and doesn't just feel like she's hanging around. Only issue would be how you can resolve the plot without killing Karel since he's kind of the person least deserving of mercy in his youth and if we're going to have young Karel the whole fun of it would be to see his blood thirsty side that Binding Blade only referenced.

Quote

Well, the story takes place in a geographic continuum from Sacae to Caelin. She faces a handful of Sacaen enemies, but no notable NPCs or allies. She doesn't even meet Rath until she's in Lycia. We do get some bits of lore, with the Mani Katti and their animist beliefs, but the country just feels kind of empty (maybe the intent?).

 

We ultimately don't even spend that much time in Sacae in Lyn mode, if I remember correctly. They push her into Lycia pretty quickly because that's where she has enemies. But yeah, that part of the world is fairly empty (in the real world I mean, one of the emptiest parts of the world alongside Australia). Like I said the issue is less what they tell us about Sacae, because on paper we know a fair amount of their customs and practices, and more a lack of good villains to embody the nation. And even on the playable side of things most of the Sacaean characters are people who have been pushed out of their tribes in order to team up with the heroes. Dayan could have pulled a bit more weight there, I guess, and been more a representative of the power structure of Sacae, but, as I said, it was an optional area so they both didn't have to and to a large extent couldn't go around making Dayan central to the plot. And if we compare Sacae to Ilia, the other optional area, Sacae does seem a lot more formed and realistic. As Ilia entirely boils down to "We're mercenaries, yo, also it's fucking freezing out here."

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

They could have used Karel as the one to wipe out Lyn's tribe and have a personal rivalry with, rather than a random group of bandits we never actually come across. Blame it on the mysterious swordsman (and a cabal of followers that have risen up around his myth so he has fodder), toss him at the heroes in two or three chapters of the game, bada bing bada boom, Lyn has something to do in the main plot and doesn't just feel like she's hanging around. Only issue would be how you can resolve the plot without killing Karel since he's kind of the person least deserving of mercy in his youth and if we're going to have young Karel the whole fun of it would be to see his blood thirsty side that Binding Blade only referenced.

Ooh, I've got it:

Karel is the leader of the Taliver bandits. In chapter 3, the group you take on are, in fact, Taliver. When Karel learns of their defeat, he swears vengeance on Lyndis and her Legion. Pursuant to this, he shows up in chapter 5 (the one where Erk and Serra join) on turn 10. He also shows up from the start of chapter 7, but departs on turn 3 after learning that the heirs of Ostia and Pherae are in the area.

From here, he disappears until after the first Dread Isle arc. However, he is shown speaking with Sonia, and they agree to collaborate. He appears as an enemy from turn 15 of the Kenneth/Jerme chapter (the Jerme version becomes "kill boss" rather than "rout"), where now Harken is a recruitable green unit regardless of the player's actions. He also shows up with the last batch of Wyvern reinforcements on "Cog of Destiny". He will always go after Lyn if she's on the field, but will still kill anyone in his way.

His final appearance is in "Victory or Death", where appears at the starting area from Turn 5. He can be recruited by having Karla engage him in combat. If both of them survive, he defects and joins the player's army. This would make Karel exclusive to Hector Mode... unless they cancelled Karla's exclusivity, which never made much sense to begin with.

Gameplay-wise, I'm imagining him as a level 16 Swordmaster with near-capped stats in all areas. Rather than the Wo Dao, however, he wields the Devil Sword. This has high Might and a chance to crit, but also a chance to backfire. As such, despite the level difference, it's possible to kill him off in earlier appearances. If he's killed off in Lyn Mode, he "retreats", and drops a Hero Crest. In the main story, if he's felled in battle, he dies and doesn't appear again. He will also drop the Devil Sword, which anyone with E-rank Swords can use.

So the "canonical" outcome would be "Karla reunites with Karel on the Dread Isle, they duel, and he defects, kicking off his redemption arc". Of course, it's possible to play in such a way that none of this happens, just as it's possible for Bartre to kill Karla so that Fir is never born.

35 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Dayan could have pulled a bit more weight there, I guess, and been more a representative of the power structure of Sacae, but, as I said, it was an optional area so they both didn't have to and to a large extent couldn't go around making Dayan central to the plot. And if we compare Sacae to Ilia, the other optional area, Sacae does seem a lot more formed and realistic. As Ilia entirely boils down to "We're mercenaries, yo, also it's fucking freezing out here."

TBH I was just thinking that Dayan could've shown up as an NPC in Lyn's Story. Maybe before she learns her heritage from Kent and Sain, she appeals for membership in the Kutolah clan? This would help her become stronger, while also finding her the family that she's lost. Dayan is open to the prospect, but she'd have to marry his son, Rath, who is away in Lycia. However, after Lyn helps defend a Kutolah village from a rival clan (IDK, whichever one "Gel" belongs to), Dayan rewards her with gold and the aid of his niece, Hinan.

He sends them out to find Rath, which brings them to Bulgar, where they encounter Kent and Sain. And the rest is history! Lyn would mention Dayan upon meeting Rath, but be too embarrassed to bring up the prospect of "marriage". Of course, it would be at the players discretion, if they chose to get an A-support between them.

As for Hinan, she'd join as a level 3 female Nomad, with a Short Bow. After Lyn is returned to Caelin, she would travel back to Sacae, although the two would exchange letters. Learning of the attack on Caelin, she'd travel back to help, but not make it in time. Instead, she'd keep Marquess Hausen company in his granddaughter's absence. She'd reunite with Lyn in "New Resolve", where she's a green unit whom Lyn can talk to. I'd give her a Light affinity, and supports with Rath, Karla, Hawkeye, and Jaffar.

Also, big brain take: the "Ilia, nation of mercenaries" branding is clever propaganda. Ilian mercenaries make themselves look more attractive than those from other nations this way. It also makes Ilia look less self-sufficient, and as such, not a threat. While there are plenty of Ilians who hit the roads (or skies) for mercanary work, many others stay behind to catch fish, chop trees, and raise hardy crops.

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21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, I've got it:

Karel is the leader of the Taliver bandits. In chapter 3, the group you take on are, in fact, Taliver. When Karel learns of their defeat, he swears vengeance on Lyndis and her Legion. Pursuant to this, he shows up in chapter 5 (the one where Erk and Serra join) on turn 10. He also shows up from the start of chapter 7, but departs on turn 3 after learning that the heirs of Ostia and Pherae are in the area.

From here, he disappears until after the first Dread Isle arc. However, he is shown speaking with Sonia, and they agree to collaborate. He appears as an enemy from turn 15 of the Kenneth/Jerme chapter (the Jerme version becomes "kill boss" rather than "rout"), where now Harken is a recruitable green unit regardless of the player's actions. He also shows up with the last batch of Wyvern reinforcements on "Cog of Destiny". He will always go after Lyn if she's on the field, but will still kill anyone in his way.

His final appearance is in "Victory or Death", where appears at the starting area from Turn 5. He can be recruited by having Karla engage him in combat. If both of them survive, he defects and joins the player's army. This would make Karel exclusive to Hector Mode... unless they cancelled Karla's exclusivity, which never made much sense to begin with.

Gameplay-wise, I'm imagining him as a level 16 Swordmaster with near-capped stats in all areas. Rather than the Wo Dao, however, he wields the Devil Sword. This has high Might and a chance to crit, but also a chance to backfire. As such, despite the level difference, it's possible to kill him off in earlier appearances. If he's killed off in Lyn Mode, he "retreats", and drops a Hero Crest. In the main story, if he's felled in battle, he dies and doesn't appear again. He will also drop the Devil Sword, which anyone with E-rank Swords can use.

So the "canonical" outcome would be "Karla reunites with Karel on the Dread Isle, they duel, and he defects, kicking off his redemption arc". Of course, it's possible to play in such a way that none of this happens, just as it's possible for Bartre to kill Karla so that Fir is never born.

Yeah, I could certainly get behind an arc like that. Though I'd make Karel less out for revenge and more just the sweet taste of killing a foe he deems as worthy as Lyn. It'd also utilize Karla in a better way, though pretty much any idea one could think of would be a better way of utilizing Karla.

21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

TBH I was just thinking that Dayan could've shown up as an NPC in Lyn's Story. Maybe before she learns her heritage from Kent and Sain, she appeals for membership in the Kutolah clan? This would help her become stronger, while also finding her the family that she's lost. Dayan is open to the prospect, but she'd have to marry his son, Rath, who is away in Lycia. However, after Lyn helps defend a Kutolah village from a rival clan (IDK, whichever one "Gel" belongs to), Dayan rewards her with gold and the aid of his niece, Hinan.

He sends them out to find Rath, which brings them to Bulgar, where they encounter Kent and Sain. And the rest is history! Lyn would mention Dayan upon meeting Rath, but be too embarrassed to bring up the prospect of "marriage". Of course, it would be at the players discretion, if they chose to get an A-support between them.

As for Hinan, she'd join as a level 3 female Nomad, with a Short Bow. After Lyn is returned to Caelin, she would travel back to Sacae, although the two would exchange letters. Learning of the attack on Caelin, she'd travel back to help, but not make it in time. Instead, she'd keep Marquess Hausen company in his granddaughter's absence. She'd reunite with Lyn in "New Resolve", where she's a green unit whom Lyn can talk to. I'd give her a Light affinity, and supports with Rath, Karla, Hawkeye, and Jaffar.

Also, big brain take: the "Ilia, nation of mercenaries" branding is clever propaganda. Ilian mercenaries make themselves look more attractive than those from other nations this way. It also makes Ilia look less self-sufficient, and as such, not a threat. While there are plenty of Ilians who hit the roads (or skies) for mercanary work, many others stay behind to catch fish, chop trees, and raise hardy crops.

Yeah, Dayan could have fit neatly into Lyn mode. A bit strange they didn't give us younger versions of Dayan, Yoder and Niime in Blazing Blade. They seem the obvious characters to work into a prequel, but all we ended up getting was Bartre, Marcus and Karel. I guess they didn't want to bloat the cast with Binding Blade characters (while simultaneously taking every loose reference in a support and turning them into Blazing Blade characters), but not all of them necessarily had to be playable characters (though Niime would have been nice to have around so there's an additional dark mage in the game).

Edited by Jotari
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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, I've got it:

Karel is the leader of the Taliver bandits. In chapter 3, the group you take on are, in fact, Taliver. When Karel learns of their defeat, he swears vengeance on Lyndis and her Legion. Pursuant to this, he shows up in chapter 5 (the one where Erk and Serra join) on turn 10. He also shows up from the start of chapter 7, but departs on turn 3 after learning that the heirs of Ostia and Pherae are in the area.

From here, he disappears until after the first Dread Isle arc. However, he is shown speaking with Sonia, and they agree to collaborate. He appears as an enemy from turn 15 of the Kenneth/Jerme chapter (the Jerme version becomes "kill boss" rather than "rout"), where now Harken is a recruitable green unit regardless of the player's actions. He also shows up with the last batch of Wyvern reinforcements on "Cog of Destiny". He will always go after Lyn if she's on the field, but will still kill anyone in his way.

His final appearance is in "Victory or Death", where appears at the starting area from Turn 5. He can be recruited by having Karla engage him in combat. If both of them survive, he defects and joins the player's army. This would make Karel exclusive to Hector Mode... unless they cancelled Karla's exclusivity, which never made much sense to begin with.

Gameplay-wise, I'm imagining him as a level 16 Swordmaster with near-capped stats in all areas. Rather than the Wo Dao, however, he wields the Devil Sword. This has high Might and a chance to crit, but also a chance to backfire. As such, despite the level difference, it's possible to kill him off in earlier appearances. If he's killed off in Lyn Mode, he "retreats", and drops a Hero Crest. In the main story, if he's felled in battle, he dies and doesn't appear again. He will also drop the Devil Sword, which anyone with E-rank Swords can use.

So the "canonical" outcome would be "Karla reunites with Karel on the Dread Isle, they duel, and he defects, kicking off his redemption arc". Of course, it's possible to play in such a way that none of this happens, just as it's possible for Bartre to kill Karla so that Fir is never born.

I really like this idea, it helps set Karel up earlier and gives Lyn someone to clash with during Eliwood/Hector`s story.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

TBH I was just thinking that Dayan could've shown up as an NPC in Lyn's Story. Maybe before she learns her heritage from Kent and Sain, she appeals for membership in the Kutolah clan? This would help her become stronger, while also finding her the family that she's lost. Dayan is open to the prospect, but she'd have to marry his son, Rath, who is away in Lycia. However, after Lyn helps defend a Kutolah village from a rival clan (IDK, whichever one "Gel" belongs to), Dayan rewards her with gold and the aid of his niece, Hinan.

He sends them out to find Rath, which brings them to Bulgar, where they encounter Kent and Sain. And the rest is history! Lyn would mention Dayan upon meeting Rath, but be too embarrassed to bring up the prospect of "marriage". Of course, it would be at the players discretion, if they chose to get an A-support between them.

As for Hinan, she'd join as a level 3 female Nomad, with a Short Bow. After Lyn is returned to Caelin, she would travel back to Sacae, although the two would exchange letters. Learning of the attack on Caelin, she'd travel back to help, but not make it in time. Instead, she'd keep Marquess Hausen company in his granddaughter's absence. She'd reunite with Lyn in "New Resolve", where she's a green unit whom Lyn can talk to. I'd give her a Light affinity, and supports with Rath, Karla, Hawkeye, and Jaffar.

Also, big brain take: the "Ilia, nation of mercenaries" branding is clever propaganda. Ilian mercenaries make themselves look more attractive than those from other nations this way. It also makes Ilia look less self-sufficient, and as such, not a threat. While there are plenty of Ilians who hit the roads (or skies) for mercanary work, many others stay behind to catch fish, chop trees, and raise hardy crops.

Another cool set of ideas. Having Dayan show Lyn`s story almost makes too much sense now that I think about it. Also, I find the idea of him trying to set up Lyn with his son hilarious

Hinan sounds like a neat addition.

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

(though Niime would have been nice to have around so there's an additional dark mage in the game)

Definetly agree on this, having a second Druid would be great. It would also be interesting to see how she interacts with the FE7 cast. 

In general, the choice of characters, even as someone who hasn`t played FE6, seems rather bizzare. I understand wanting a mostly self-contained cast, but given that it DOES proceed an existing game, they could have chosen some better characters. 

On the topic of Lyn`s story, it makes me wanna see a succession crisis FE plot in the future. Probably have already mentioned this in the thread though.

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1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

I really like this idea, it helps set Karel up earlier and gives Lyn someone to clash with during Eliwood/Hector`s story.

Thanks! Yeah, Lyn not having much reason to tag along is a common criticism. I'd argue that Erik joining Eliwood and Hector makes more sense. But that belongs to my inevitable "Justice for Erik" thread.

1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

Another cool set of ideas. Having Dayan show Lyn`s story almost makes too much sense now that I think about it. Also, I find the idea of him trying to set up Lyn with his son hilarious

Hinan sounds like a neat addition.

Thanks again. I think there's a fine line to tread between "gratuitous fanservice" and "awkward disconnect". As long as the FE6 character cameo makes sense, I think it'll be fine.

As for Hinan, I'm not married to the name, but I just figured a derivative of "Hanon" would be appropriate. Also, "female Nomad" is one of the as-of-yet unrepresented playable classes in FE7. Even though we get one in FE6 (Sue), and enemy female Nomads actually show up in the Uhai map.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, Dayan could have fit neatly into Lyn mode. A bit strange they didn't give us younger versions of Dayan, Yoder and Niime in Blazing Blade. They seem the obvious characters to work into a prequel, but all we ended up getting was Bartre, Marcus and Karel. I guess they didn't want to bloat the cast with Binding Blade characters (while simultaneously taking every loose reference in a support and turning them into Blazing Blade characters), but not all of them necessarily had to be playable characters (though Niime would have been nice to have around so there's an additional dark mage in the game).

Niime is kind of in a tight spot. With Canas in the army as well, there might be a bit of conflict between the two, in light of Niime's... unorthodox parenting methods. Then again, Matthew hates Jaffar's guts, but they still have a support together. And it'd be cool to get a playable female Druid.

Giving some role or function to Yoder could've been nice, too.

1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

In general, the choice of characters, even as someone who hasn`t played FE6, seems rather bizzare. I understand wanting a mostly self-contained cast, but given that it DOES proceed an existing game, they could have chosen some better characters.

A lot of FE7's choices are... bizarre, to put it plainly. In his epilogue, for instance, Lowen is described as becoming the most famous knight in Pherae. 20 years later, he's nowhere to be seen, and nobody seems to know anything about him.

Also, FE6 establishes that Hector's half-brother, Orun, is the Marquess of Thria. But FE7 never mentions Orun, and gives Hector a previously-unknown elder full brother in Uther. Thria itself, the neighboring domain, plays no part either. It's not a contradiction, exactly, it's just odd.

Also also, Geitz is the older brother of Geese. But he must be much older, because Geitz looks older than Geese, even though the Geese we're seeing comes 20 years later. So there's gotta be at least a 25-year difference between the two of them (not impossible, but unusual). I dunno, would've made more sense for Geitz to be Geese's father, or maybe uncle.

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Niime is kind of in a tight spot. With Canas in the army as well, there might be a bit of conflict between the two, in light of Niime's... unorthodox parenting methods. Then again, Matthew hates Jaffar's guts, but they still have a support together. And it'd be cool to get a playable female Druid.

Is that meant to be a negative? Because it's ample filler support. Though possibly a bit repetitive as that's more or less how her supports go down with Hue in Binding Blade.

 

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also, FE6 establishes that Hector's half-brother, Orun, is the Marquess of Thria. But FE7 never mentions Orun, and gives Hector a previously-unknown elder full brother in Uther. Thria itself, the neighboring domain, plays no part either. It's not a contradiction, exactly, it's just odd.

Thria actually does appear in Blazing Blade. The chapter defending Nils is in Thria... but yeah, that's all the relevancy it has. No Orun appearance or even mention.

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3 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Thria actually does appear in Blazing Blade. The chapter defending Nils is in Thria... but yeah, that's all the relevancy it has. No Orun appearance or even mention.

I checked the Wiki, and apparently the castle is on the border between Thria and Ostia. But the game indeed mentions Thria by name, so credit where it's due. The Orun oversight is still weird; the only plausible explanation I can think of is that Hector didn't meet Orun, or discover their kinship, until after the events of FE7.

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Is that meant to be a negative? Because it's ample filler support. Though possibly a bit repetitive as that's more or less how her supports go down with Hue in Binding Blade.

Would be really curious how that chain goes. Would Canas want Niime to care for his son in case of his demise, or would he be adamantly against it? Would he treat her coldly regarding his brothers' demise, or come at her with fiery passion? Would Niime encourage him to look deeper into the darkness, or to give it up for the sake of his family? Would they discuss the merits of investing in high-quality home insulation? There's probably a lot of potential there after all!

15 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Finally, the Erik Gang will rise up.

LAUS SQUAD

LAUS SQUAD

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On 3/22/2022 at 2:52 PM, Germit said:

This could provide a unique setting for the series, with quetzelxoatl riders.

As a native with the name Quetzal, this would please me greatly.

On 3/23/2022 at 2:48 PM, AnonymousSpeed said:

That depends on what you mean by inferiority and levels of technology. There's very little argument that the Aztecs were anything other than technologically inferior to the Spaniards, and morally or culturally? Well, there's a whole argument there I don't want to drag you into. This is, of course, a work of fiction, and a hypothetical one at that, so it is unbound by the petty trivialities of what actually happened in real life. I'd say that worrying about how the message you convey is very silly though, because that is also dependent on the audience, and this is supposedly a plot, not an essay.

An argument could be made that the Aztecs were only inferior in terms of warfare technology. Tenochtitlan was one of the cleanest cities in the world at the time and is often called the Venice of the Americas for it's impressive location in the middle of Texcoco.

I can understand the worry of audience reactions towards a Native American inspired and Colonial inspired nation in Fire Emblem because the conflict between Natives and settlers is still very much prevalent today. It's one thing to write a story where generic fantasy kingdom fights other generic fantasy kingdom but it's a completely different thing to have nations inspired by groups of people that are still very much feeling the scars of past conflicts put in a war based game.

The folks at IS are also game designers, not social historians, so a game inspired by Native and Colonial conflicts made by them could swerve dangerously into c̶̥̏u̷̡̇l̷͓̒t̸̲̔ù̴̥r̷̩̓a̴̲͘l̵̺̐ ̵̩̇ā̵̧p̵͔͗p̸̘̏r̸̯̒ǒ̸̧p̵̻̿r̵̰̄i̵̜̕a̶̞͛t̴͖̽ȋ̶̜o̴̡͝n̴̳͌  and I don't know if I trust them to write a story about the touchy subject of colonialism well.

As much as I would love to see a perfectly authentic FE portraying the Americas, I think it would much suit Fire Emblem better to be more fantastical with light inspirations, perhaps from mythology and culture rather than history.

Not saying it would be a terrible idea but it would be more unique to have a story where the natives and settlers aren't trying to desperately kill each other.

 

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8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

As for Hinan, I'm not married to the name, but I just figured a derivative of "Hanon" would be appropriate. Also, "female Nomad" is one of the as-of-yet unrepresented playable classes in FE7. Even though we get one in FE6 (Sue), and enemy female Nomads actually show up in the Uhai map.

Yeah, though it would be yet another unit that fights for the Orion`s Bolt promotion item.

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

A lot of FE7's choices are... bizarre, to put it plainly. In his epilogue, for instance, Lowen is described as becoming the most famous knight in Pherae. 20 years later, he's nowhere to be seen, and nobody seems to know anything about him.

Also, FE6 establishes that Hector's half-brother, Orun, is the Marquess of Thria. But FE7 never mentions Orun, and gives Hector a previously-unknown elder full brother in Uther. Thria itself, the neighboring domain, plays no part either. It's not a contradiction, exactly, it's just odd.

Also also, Geitz is the older brother of Geese. But he must be much older, because Geitz looks older than Geese, even though the Geese we're seeing comes 20 years later. So there's gotta be at least a 25-year difference between the two of them (not impossible, but unusual). I dunno, would've made more sense for Geitz to be Geese's father, or maybe uncle.

Very true. Something tells me Orun was either forgotten or not deemed as working with the arc they set up for Hector in the game.

I mean, it is rare, but it CAN happen that siblings are born decades apart. Some couples can really struggle to have children.

1 hour ago, GuardianSing said:

I can understand the worry of audience reactions towards a Native American inspired and Colonial inspired nation in Fire Emblem because the conflict between Natives and settlers is still very much prevalent today. It's one thing to write a story where generic fantasy kingdom fights other generic fantasy kingdom but it's a completely different thing to have nations inspired by groups of people that are still very much feeling the scars of past conflicts put in a war based game.

The folks at IS are also game designers, not social historians, so a game inspired by Native and Colonial conflicts made by them could swerve dangerously into c̶̥̏u̷̡̇l̷͓̒t̸̲̔ù̴̥r̷̩̓a̴̲͘l̵̺̐ ̵̩̇ā̵̧p̵͔͗p̸̘̏r̸̯̒ǒ̸̧p̵̻̿r̵̰̄i̵̜̕a̶̞͛t̴͖̽ȋ̶̜o̴̡͝n̴̳͌  and I don't know if I trust them to write a story about the touchy subject of colonialism well.

As much as I would love to see a perfectly authentic FE portraying the Americas, I think it would much suit Fire Emblem better to be more fantastical with light inspirations, perhaps from mythology and culture rather than history.

Not saying it would be a terrible idea but it would be more unique to have a story where the natives and settlers aren't trying to desperately kill each other.

See, this is why I am so mixed on a FE game with the main plot being about colonialisim

On one hand, it can lead to a unique story with interesting gameplay concepts. The look of the game would also be very different.

On the other hand, the scars of colonialisim are still fresh in certain parts of the world and if handled poorly it can play into some VERY bad stereotypes on both sides.

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1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

I mean, it is rare, but it CAN happen that siblings are born decades apart. Some couples can really struggle to have children.

Orun is said to be Hector's half brother if I recall correctly, so there isn't much of an issue of him being born decades apart since a father can reproduce for a good couple of decades after a mother. That isn't really the issue though (since Orun never appears on screen, I don't think we even know what age he's meant to be in relation to Hector), the issue is that both of Hectors parents are dead for quite a while at the start of Blazing Blade. So Orun must be alive somewhere during Blazing Blade. Either it was a scandalous affair with the ruler of Thria's wife/female Marquis (or whatever title befits Thria) or it was a natural second/first marriage from one of Hector's parents (whichever one isn't heir of Ostia since Orun isn't inheriting that title) and Hector is fully aware of Orun's existence but he just somehow never comes up in conversation during the course of the game (despite Hector having a dying brother being kind of an important plot point). The first possibility, that Hector is unaware of the situation, is more likely, but that second possibility isn't impossible, just kind of bad writing.

1 hour ago, Metal Flash said:

See, this is why I am so mixed on a FE game with the main plot being about colonialisim

On one hand, it can lead to a unique story with interesting gameplay concepts. The look of the game would also be very different.

On the other hand, the scars of colonialisim are still fresh in certain parts of the world and if handled poorly it can play into some VERY bad stereotypes on both sides.

I'm prepared to say I don't really care about sterotypes and offending people. Give me a good story. Yeah, colonialism has scars in the modern day, but we'll get nowhere just ignoring it. If the issue is offending people then either A) People are being offended by stuff they should be offended by because colonialism was fucking horrible or B) The writers need to write better to make things more nuanced. Of course we should always strive for "Write better", not that I truly have faith in Fire Emblem to actually achieve anything of truly great and nuanced literary heights, but I'd rather see them try than play it safe. Much as I think Three Houses failed to achieve it's narrative goals, I can appreciate it for trying something more daring. 

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4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Orun is said to be Hector's half brother if I recall correctly, so there isn't much of an issue of him being born decades apart since a father can reproduce for a good couple of decades after a mother. That isn't really the issue though (since Orun never appears on screen, I don't think we even know what age he's meant to be in relation to Hector), the issue is that both of Hectors parents are dead for quite a while at the start of Blazing Blade. So Orun must be alive somewhere during Blazing Blade. Either it was a scandalous affair with the ruler of Thria's wife/female Marquis (or whatever title befits Thria) or it was a natural second/first marriage from one of Hector's parents (whichever one isn't heir of Ostia since Orun isn't inheriting that title) and Hector is fully aware of Orun's existence but he just somehow never comes up in conversation during the course of the game (despite Hector having a dying brother being kind of an important plot point). The first possibility, that Hector is unaware of the situation, is more likely, but that second possibility isn't impossible, just kind of bad writing.

I would personally like to believe they just forgot about Orun, but that`s because I just wish to believe his exclusion was a mere mistake. 

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm prepared to say I don't really care about sterotypes and offending people. Give me a good story. Yeah, colonialism has scars in the modern day, but we'll get nowhere just ignoring it. If the issue is offending people then either A) People are being offended by stuff they should be offended by because colonialism was fucking horrible or B) The writers need to write better to make things more nuanced. Of course we should always strive for "Write better", not that I truly have faith in Fire Emblem to actually achieve anything of truly great and nuanced literary heights, but I'd rather see them try than play it safe. Much as I think Three Houses failed to achieve it's narrative goals, I can appreciate it for trying something more daring. 

That`s a fair take, I just fear that the story would be ruined by poor stereotyping on both sides. 

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8 hours ago, Metal Flash said:

See, this is why I am so mixed on a FE game with the main plot being about colonialisim

On one hand, it can lead to a unique story with interesting gameplay concepts. The look of the game would also be very different.

On the other hand, the scars of colonialisim are still fresh in certain parts of the world and if handled poorly it can play into some VERY bad stereotypes on both sides.

Looking away from the political implications of it, I actually think a game where you play as a small tribe defending against a large empire is very fitting for Fire Emblem. Already in most of the games you are pretty outnumber later on with the implications that nameless soldiers are fighting alongside you. As a small tribe, every unit is every soldier that the tribe has available and could truly make you feel like your outnumbered and outgunned but still have a chance to win the day.

Making a story showing the evils of colonialism would be very brave, and if made with the intent to send a good message I think it would be great, I just don't think IS or Nintendo for that matter would every allow that to see the light of day.

Now as a native Lenca myself, my personal wish would be to have a game that doesn't have settlers and just focuses on ancient tribes. For a long time, the first nation peoples have only ever been brought up when in tangent with the European settlers, most schools in the United States half-ass it by briefly some tribes and empires and then immediately jumping into the Spanish arrival and the American Revolution, so a story set independently from that history that just focuses on the Natives on their own would be a breath of fresh air.

I can't even think of many modern stories that have something like that. At the top of my head, Brother Bear and Moana are the only ones I can think of.

But yes, a story that focuses on the diversities of the tribes would be something I'd prefer over "Generic American tribe" against "Generic European Empire" 

It would also have potential for some truly unique characters and classes, I mean you could have Eagle Warriors with macuahuitls and Atlatls, you could have mythology inspired units like Naguals and feathered serpents.

Circling back to the idea of colonialism in FE, the most realistic outcome would be a story that has two semi-identical fantasy European nations in a colonial context. Fates almost had that with Nohr and the Ice tribe but you were playing as the colonizers in that scenario so...yeah.

Man, now I wish the Ice Tribe in Fates took inspiration from the Sami people instead of being maid land...

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2 hours ago, GuardianSing said:

Looking away from the political implications of it, I actually think a game where you play as a small tribe defending against a large empire is very fitting for Fire Emblem. Already in most of the games you are pretty outnumber later on with the implications that nameless soldiers are fighting alongside you. As a small tribe, every unit is every soldier that the tribe has available and could truly make you feel like your outnumbered and outgunned but still have a chance to win the day.

Making a story showing the evils of colonialism would be very brave, and if made with the intent to send a good message I think it would be great, I just don't think IS or Nintendo for that matter would every allow that to see the light of day.

Now as a native Lenca myself, my personal wish would be to have a game that doesn't have settlers and just focuses on ancient tribes. For a long time, the first nation peoples have only ever been brought up when in tangent with the European settlers, most schools in the United States half-ass it by briefly some tribes and empires and then immediately jumping into the Spanish arrival and the American Revolution, so a story set independently from that history that just focuses on the Natives on their own would be a breath of fresh air.

I can't even think of many modern stories that have something like that. At the top of my head, Brother Bear and Moana are the only ones I can think of.

But yes, a story that focuses on the diversities of the tribes would be something I'd prefer over "Generic American tribe" against "Generic European Empire" 

It would also have potential for some truly unique characters and classes, I mean you could have Eagle Warriors with macuahuitls and Atlatls, you could have mythology inspired units like Naguals and feathered serpents.

Circling back to the idea of colonialism in FE, the most realistic outcome would be a story that has two semi-identical fantasy European nations in a colonial context. Fates almost had that with Nohr and the Ice tribe but you were playing as the colonizers in that scenario so...yeah.

Man, now I wish the Ice Tribe in Fates took inspiration from the Sami people instead of being maid land...

I don`t deny that the idea works well for a FE game, my concern lies with how these types of conflicts are generally portrayed in media. With this franchise enjoying tropes and stereotypes so much, I worry they would resort to going with the easiest (and worst) portrayals both the colonies and the colonizers. 

It would be interesting to see a story centered around  multiple tribes and their relations with each other would be unique. That being said, it would be kinda hard to sell the idea to the general audience I feel, though that might be a blessing in disguise.

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