Magic Bernie?

[ZanaLyrander]

I've done enough runs of Three Houses at this point that I've started exploring a number of unorthodox class choices for some of the students. It's how I accidentally discovered that high speed, low defense students like Petra and Ingrid actually make for surprisingly terrifying Fortress Knights.

But the choice I want to discuss today is making Bernadetta a magic user, typically either Gremory or Dark Knight, though Mortal Savant is also an option (albeit a difficult one given Bernie's weakness in swords). And one look at Bernie's stat growth rates will reveal why this is an unpopular pick: she's got a 20% growth rate in magic, which is pretty abysmal. In fairness, her strength isn't great either, sitting at 35%, but it's still a pretty significant difference, making physical attacks typically a better choice for her. She's not exactly well suited to be a mage.

Or at least, that's what I thought. Then I took a look at her spell list, and realized that Bernie's spell list is sweet. Blizzard, Thunder, Thoron, Fimbulvetr... and on the faith side, she gets both Physic and Rescue! I would kill for this spell list on some of the more magically adept students. Her magic stat may suck, but her spells are fantastic. Not to mention Persecution Complex, Bernie's personal ability that increases her damage by 5 when she's missing at least one HP, doesn't care if that damage is physical or magical, it boosts both. As a result, if you're willing to invest in her, and prepared to spend some of your Spirit Dust/Premium Magic Herbs on boosting her magic stat, this combined with the natural magic boosts she'll get by transitioning into magically focused classes allows Bernie to be a startlingly powerful magic user.

It's a very odd choice, but one that I'm starting to really love. I highly recommend giving it a try, you might be surprised by how effective magical Bernie can be.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah this is one build I haven't gotten around to trying yet and would definitely like to do so. Physic+Rescue is cool, nobody else has that. Between that, Thoron, and her zero-investment Curved Shot (or even Deadeye if you prefer? Would go well with Uncanny Blow), she has almost unparalleled ability to be effective at any range, which is nice on someone with Persecution Complex. I do wish she wasn't stuck with ice spells (which I consider the weakest spells of their rank), but you can't have everything.

How much bow and/or lance training do you recommend?

[ZanaLyrander]

I haven't been using her bows at all on my current run, but I'm going for Dark Knight, so at least some investment in lances is needed. Honestly between that and the need for riding investment, I'm not sure it'd be possible to squeeze in bow training as well, at least not without dropping renown on boosting her skill levels from a previous playthrough. Between Lances, Riding, Reason, and Faith, Bernie's got a lot on her plate already. My advice is prioritize Reason and Faith (at least until you get Rescue), then focus on Riding, then worry about a physical option. That said, having the option of attacking physically with a lance or magically with spells is very nice when dealing with enemies that are strong in defense or resistance.

That said, if you are dropping renown on the build, it can help a lot. Double stacking Black Tombfaire from both a class and S+ Reason can do a lot to compensate for her weak magic stat.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I really enjoyed Dark Knight Bernie on CF Hard. Not sure how "Maddening viable" the build is, though.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah this is one build I haven't gotten around to trying yet and would definitely like to do so. Physic+Rescue is cool, nobody else has that. Between that, Thoron, and her zero-investment Curved Shot (or even Deadeye if you prefer? Would go well with Uncanny Blow), she has almost unparalleled ability to be effective at any range, which is nice on someone with Persecution Complex. I do wish she wasn't stuck with ice spells (which I consider the weakest spells of their rank), but you can't have everything.

How much bow and/or lance training do you recommend?

Ooh, I've never thought of combining Uncanny Blow with Deadeye. Seems like a good way to make up for that art's biggest flaw.

[Jotari]

I'd still probably end up just having her use Encloser all the time though. Because Encloser is just a ridiculously useful skill.

[lenticular]

I didn't really care for magic Bernadetta when I tried it. It's certainly workable, but the pay-off didn't really feel worth the investment to me. Her spell list is good, but not phenomenal. Physic and Thoron are both very good spells, but not uniquely so. They're both pretty common, and there are multiple units who pick up both of them, including one (Dorothea) in the Black Eagles. For the most part, she has a very similar spell list to Marianne or Ingrid, except with a worse magic stat to back them up. And sure, you can give her stat boosters, but in that case, you're spending resources to bring her up to parity.

Her big selling point and the reason to actually run this sort of build is Rescue. Now, I will admit that I'm not the biggest fan of Rescue in Three Houses. People who value it more than I do might be more impressed by magical Bernadetta. But a couple of things to note here: first is that Rescue is one of the few spells in the game that can only be strengthened by pure magic stat. For other spells, there are -faire skills, battalions, heal +10, staves, etc. For Rescue (and Warp) it's all about the magic stat. If you want to get decent range, then you need to have a high magic stat, which in Bernadetta's case means you need to use stat boosters (or get exceptionally lucky, or scum level-ups). Second, among the units that learn Rescue, Bernadetta is unique in getting it at A rank Faith rather than B rank for Flayn, Constance, and Anna. Flayn and Anna also have the advantage of a strength in Faith, whereas Bernadetta (and Constance) are only neutral. You aren't going to actually pick up Rescue until a fair bit later than other units can.

It's not a terrible build, and I do see why people like it, but it wasn't for me.

[Shadow Mir]

Honestly, I think this is a very tough sell, in large part because of...

18 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd still probably end up just having her use Encloser all the time though. Because Encloser is just a ridiculously useful skill.

...this. It's very, very hard for me to justify this when I don't really get anything out of it that justifies the investment.

[Shaky Jones]

I tried Gremory Bernadetta before. It was a nice change of pace, although it was unfortunately done on Crimson Flowers, meaning I had little time to actually make use of her faith spells. Seriously, I didn't get rescue until endgame. She doesn't have a boon in either magic rank, so it takes a while to get her to A rank in both reason and faith.

46 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I really enjoyed Dark Knight Bernie on CF Hard. Not sure how "Maddening viable" the build is, though.

I don't see Dark Knight Berine being all that great in Maddening, but at least Gremory gave thoron quite a few uses, which saved me quite a few times. I suppose the lance helps for vengeance, so that's always nice.

Her magic did suck though, so I frequently had to farm premium magic herbs, which could've been used on more speed carrots. It was still a fun change from a generic sniper build or something. Dark Flier probably would've been better, as her speed combined with darting blow let her double Maddening enemies on part 2 for quite some time, and even on endgame, where the average speed of enemies on maddening I believe is 34. Really, I stuck with gremory to capitalize on the physic/rescue, along with thoron, although fimbulvetr came in handy every now and then, mainly on beasts. Obviously, I didn't have ng+ points of magic, so I couldn't get to S+, but if one did, she'd probably be a great magic user. If only it was done on silver snow, so I could've gotten more out of rescue, but it came in handy quite a bit on endgame. Didn't use a single divine pulse because of it, so for those who hate using natural mages that have rescue, Bernadetta's a decent option. I don't have many to compare her to other than mage Felix, but that's an unfair competition. Dark Knight sounds difficult because of how much you need to train in ranks. It's hard enough getting to A in both faith and reason, but also lance and riding? You'd probably need ng+ for that, or just settle for only having the build complete near the end of the game. 

16 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd still probably end up just having her use Encloser all the time though. Because Encloser is just a ridiculously useful skill.

Bro, just kill the enemy.

3 hours ago, ZanaLyrander said:

That said, if you are dropping renown on the build, it can help a lot. Double stacking Black Tombfaire from both a class and S+ Reason can do a lot to compensate for her weak magic stat.

Basically. Without it, I threw in like 7 points on premium herbs, so tomefaire would largely make up for that. That and a batallion than gave a big magic boost. Persecution complex already helps out with the damage weakness, although on maddening, I struggled getting her to take damage without just dying immediately. The short sotry of magic Bernadetta is that she has a great list of spells, but has bad magic, so how much are you willing to invest in buffing it? She was probably one of my best units in CF endgame on maddening, but you could say she'd be bad without all the magic stat boosters, but in my defense, I didn't have many other magic users that actually used tomes other than Bishop Edelgard, who wasn't nearly as skilled as Bernie, even with Luna.

49 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Ooh, I've never thought of combining Uncanny Blow with Deadeye. Seems like a good way to make up for that art's biggest flaw.

I don't know if I'm unlucky, or if deadeye just sucks, since I tend to miss even with that. I think I enjoy mage Bernadetta with thrysus + thoron way more with uncanny blow, or even just hit +20 if doing a non ng+ run.

 

TL;DR: Her great spell list can largely make up for her poor magic growth, but you'll probably need to invest giving her magic boosts if you want her being a decent magic user overall. Bernadetta's great speed growth lets her do a decent job doubling enemies compared to units like Dorothea or Annete, especially with darting blow. Thoron comes in handy a lot in maddening, as well as rescue and physic, but it takes a long time to reach A in faith, especially when training other skills such as reason, bows/lance, or flying/riding for dark flier/dark knight. She's pretty fun to use as a gremory and occasionally a dark flier imo, so I'd suggest giving it a try. I like needing to farm premium herbs every now again instead of living off of speed carrots, and unlocking higher battalions to give her a big magic buff feels very rewarding. Getting to S+ reason will also make her amazing, but either you need renown, or be very committed and play Silver Snow, or I guess any route you recruit her off Black Eagles in. Out of the units that aren't typically magic units, she probably pulls it off the best. Felix is better offensive wise, but Bernadetta has healing skills, and rescue is just so damn helpful imo.

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

Bro, just kill the enemy.

I doubt Mage Bernie will be one rounding all that many enemies.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Her big selling point and the reason to actually run this sort of build is Rescue. Now, I will admit that I'm not the biggest fan of Rescue in Three Houses. People who value it more than I do might be more impressed by magical Bernadetta. But a couple of things to note here: first is that Rescue is one of the few spells in the game that can only be strengthened by pure magic stat. For other spells, there are -faire skills, battalions, heal +10, staves, etc. For Rescue (and Warp) it's all about the magic stat. If you want to get decent range, then you need to have a high magic stat, which in Bernadetta's case means you need to use stat boosters (or get exceptionally lucky, or scum level-ups). Second, among the units that learn Rescue, Bernadetta is unique in getting it at A rank Faith rather than B rank for Flayn, Constance, and Anna. Flayn and Anna also have the advantage of a strength in Faith, whereas Bernadetta (and Constance) are only neutral. You aren't going to actually pick up Rescue until a fair bit later than other units can.

For folks who have the DLC, I can think of no one who Rescuebots better than Dark Flier Constance. She basically ties with Lysithea for "highest Magic stat in the game", and she has the right aptitudes to certify in Dark Flier, the most mobile magic-using class. She lacks Pass, but outside of rare niche scenarios, I don't see her needing it, especially as a flier. Anna is an option too, with Pass this time, although she has a harder time raising her Reason rank.

As for players without the DLC, it's essentially between Bernie and Flayn. And Dark Flier isn't an option, so Dark/Holy Knight are the most mobile options. Bernie joins earlier (on CF/SS) and has a much easier time training her Riding rank (which also gets her Pass). Flayn has Rescue basically immediately and a higher Magic stat. I think Bernie can be more effective in the role, but she's also higher-effort, so...

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd still probably end up just having her use Encloser all the time though. Because Encloser is just a ridiculously useful skill.

My Fimbulvetr-cold take is: don't half-ass two builds, whole-ass one build. If your vision for Bernie is "Encloser", make her a Bow Knight for Bowfaire, higher attack range, and the ability to Canto away. If your vision is "Vengeance", make her a Paladin or Falcon Knight for the Faire (Paladin gets Guard Adjutant and better relevant stats, while Falcon Knight is more mobile). And if your vision is "Rescuebot", go for early Warlock Certification to maximize her Magic, then get her Faith and Riding/Flight up to snuff, and put her in Dark Knight/Valkyrie/Dark Flier.

[Dark Holy Elf]

26 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Second, among the units that learn Rescue, Bernadetta is unique in getting it at A rank Faith rather than B rank for Flayn, Constance, and Anna. Flayn and Anna also have the advantage of a strength in Faith, whereas Bernadetta (and Constance) are only neutral. You aren't going to actually pick up Rescue until a fair bit later than other units can.

Yeah, that's all fair. And broadly I agree with you that Rescue in 3H isn't that great; its range is relatively low (you need 40 magic to match the Fates version) and 3H provides a lot more options than other games to replace Rescue's various uses (e.g. Stride is far better for its offensive uses, Impregnable Wall can replace its defensive uses).

17 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

Bro, just kill the enemy.

Killing a monster takes at least 3 (realistically more) actions, stopping them in their tracks for a turn takes 1 (and as a bonus, you get to instantly break their barrier if the monster is flying or if you're using a Blessed Bow). Encloser also has far greater effective range than most lethal options in this game, especially if used by a flier or Bow Knight. It's a nifty skill.

17 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

She doesn't have a boon in either magic rank, so it takes a while to get her to A rank in both reason and faith.

For what it's worth, A in reason doesn't feel particularly useful or necessary to me. 3 extra damage points from Fimbulvetr vs Thoron is pretty whatever in the grand scheme of things, especially since Bernie is highly unlikely to one-shot things with Fimbulvetr due to her low magic. You also don't need A reason for either Gremory or Dark Knight if you're willing to accept ~50%/~70% certification rates. All it's good for is a really mediocre form of crit-fishing.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Dark Holy Elf

[Jotari]

17 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I think this is a very tough sell, in large part because of...

...this. It's very, very hard for me to justify this when I don't really get anything out of it that justifies the investment.

Well you could do it for, you know, fun.

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My Fimbulvetr-cold take is: don't half-ass two builds, whole-ass one build. If your vision for Bernie is "Encloser", make her a Bow Knight for Bowfaire, higher attack range, and the ability to Canto away. If your vision is "Vengeance", make her a Paladin or Falcon Knight for the Faire (Paladin gets Guard Adjutant and better relevant stats, while Falcon Knight is more mobile). And if your vision is "Rescuebot", go for early Warlock Certification to maximize her Magic, then get her Faith and Riding/Flight up to snuff, and put her in Dark Knight/Valkyrie/Dark Flier.

Well Bow Knight Bernie (with a drop into Valkyrie for more accuracy) is what I consistently do with her.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I doubt Mage Bernie will be one rounding all that many enemies.

Oh, one more advantage of Mage Bernie: she fast. She has at least a 10% advantage in her Speed growth over any "obvious Mage candidates" (Dorothea, Linhardt, Mercedes, Annette, Lorenz, Marianne, Hanneman, Constance, Hapi), the sole exception being Lysithea, whom she ties. And she has more Strength than most of the aforementioned units, giving her a better "Spell Weight Offset". Even with a poor Magic stat, with enough boosters (Fiendish Blow, Persecution Comex, Black Tomefaire, Battalion), she's probably killing most foes she manages to double.

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well Bow Knight Bernie (with a drop into Valkyrie for more accuracy) is what I consistently do with her.

Yeah that's her most intuitive class, and probably her best one, especially if you plan to use Encloser a lot. I think there's an argument for sticking in Paladin, though, as it's even lower-effort and offers a more powerful Vengeance.

I'm curious, how much work is "a drop into Valkyrie"? I can see the appeal re: Uncanny Blow, but raising her Reason rank just to leave her with worse combat and mobility for a while sounds like a real pain.

[Shaky Jones]

7 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Killing a monster takes at least 3 (realistically more) actions, stopping them in their tracks for a turn takes 1 (and as a bonus, you get to instantly break their barrier if the monster is flying or if you're using a Blessed Bow). Encloser also has far greater effective range than most lethal options in this game, especially if used by a flier or Bow Knight. It's a nifty skill.

I suppose it can help there, but I personally hardly find a good use for it. It's probably my playstyle. Everything near me has to die by the end of the turn. I also just prefer stunning monsters with gambits after using stride to rush them before they can do anything. But encloser is probably more fun to strategize with than 500 curved shot users.

9 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

For what it's worth, A in reason doesn't feel particularly useful or necessary to me. 3 extra damage points from Fimbulvetr vs Thoron is pretty whatever in the grand scheme of things, especially since Bernie is highly unlikely to one-shot things with Fimbulvetr due to her low magic. You also don't need A reason for either Gremory or Dark Knight if you're willing to accept ~50%/~70% certification rates. All it's good for is a really mediocre form of crit-fishing.

I will agree here. Fimbulvetr was only slightly helpful for me. Throon is much more important, and it only requires C rank. It was on me for really wanting to maximize her list for the sake of just owning all her spells since that's just what you expect from a dedicated magic build, but it really isn't worth it, especially when playing CF which much fewer maps. Even I'd agree to just stop after B rank or so and just go full on faith for A in faith to reclass to gremory. If you're patient, you can just restart the month and retake the test on week 1 until you pass if you don't want to deal with bad certification rates. The main reason to go all in on reason is for the chance to reach the S rankings, but that's a major investment to make, and probably isn't worth it if you're already trying to reach other ranks. 

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I doubt Mage Bernie will be one rounding all that many enemies

Her extra speed is always nice. I never really double with Dorothea, Anette, or basically any mage other than a reclassed Felix maybe, but Bernadetta can do a decent job with it, so I honestly feel like she has a better shot one rounding than other mages, aside from Constance and maybe Lysithea. She one rounded for me more than many of my other units on maddening.

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm curious, how much work is "a drop into Valkyrie"? I can see the appeal re: Uncanny Blow, but raising her Reason rank just to leave her with worse combat and mobility for a while sounds like a real pain.

I've probably done it for every person who can use the class, but usually in the background of runs they're not involved in for future ng+ runs. Like, you have a unit learn riding in one playthrough, then they become an adjutant for a while to learn the skill, then you use that skill in the next run. For doing it in the same run, it's annoying. If the person you're training is already going for a horse class, it's fine, but it's hardly the case for me, so I wouldn't recommend it on most non ng+ runs. I'd rather just go for archer's 20+ hit. 

[lenticular]

7 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

For folks who have the DLC, I can think of no one who Rescuebots better than Dark Flier Constance. She basically ties with Lysithea for "highest Magic stat in the game", and she has the right aptitudes to certify in Dark Flier, the most mobile magic-using class. She lacks Pass, but outside of rare niche scenarios, I don't see her needing it, especially as a flier. Anna is an option too, with Pass this time, although she has a harder time raising her Reason rank.

As for players without the DLC, it's essentially between Bernie and Flayn. And Dark Flier isn't an option, so Dark/Holy Knight are the most mobile options. Bernie joins earlier (on CF/SS) and has a much easier time training her Riding rank (which also gets her Pass). Flayn has Rescue basically immediately and a higher Magic stat. I think Bernie can be more effective in the role, but she's also higher-effort, so...

I'd agree with all of this. In the situation that you want a Rescue user and are willing to invest and don't have the DLC, then Bernadetta would definitely be my first choice. Agree about Constance, too. Dark Flier Constance is certainly the most use that I've personally got from Rescue.

8 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, that's all fair. And broadly I agree with you that Rescue in 3H isn't that great; its range is relatively low (you need 40 magic to match the Fates version) and 3H provides a lot more options than other games to replace Rescue's various uses (e.g. Stride is far better for its offensive uses, Impregnable Wall can replace its defensive uses).

I'll also add Canto (specifically, Canto that allows moving after attacking) to that list, especially in combination with the high range that bows and magic can get in Three Houses. A lot of hit-and-run style tactics are possible in Three Houses that would have required Rescue in other games.

2 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Oh, one more advantage of Mage Bernie: she fast. She has at least a 10% advantage in her Speed growth over any "obvious Mage candidates" (Dorothea, Linhardt, Mercedes, Annette, Lorenz, Marianne, Hanneman, Constance, Hapi), the sole exception being Lysithea, whom she ties. And she has more Strength than most of the aforementioned units, giving her a better "Spell Weight Offset". Even with a poor Magic stat, with enough boosters (Fiendish Blow, Persecution Comex, Black Tomefaire, Battalion), she's probably killing most foes she manages to double.

Ingrid says hi!

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Oh, one more advantage of Mage Bernie: she fast. She has at least a 10% advantage in her Speed growth over any "obvious Mage candidates" (Dorothea, Linhardt, Mercedes, Annette, Lorenz, Marianne, Hanneman, Constance, Hapi), the sole exception being Lysithea, whom she ties. And she has more Strength than most of the aforementioned units, giving her a better "Spell Weight Offset". Even with a poor Magic stat, with enough boosters (Fiendish Blow, Persecution Comex, Black Tomefaire, Battalion), she's probably killing most foes she manages to double.

Yeah that's her most intuitive class, and probably her best one, especially if you plan to use Encloser a lot. I think there's an argument for sticking in Paladin, though, as it's even lower-effort and offers a more powerful Vengeance.

I'm curious, how much work is "a drop into Valkyrie"? I can see the appeal re: Uncanny Blow, but raising her Reason rank just to leave her with worse combat and mobility for a while sounds like a real pain.

Well I should note I also completely whore out with New Game+ so her weapon ranks for Bow Knight are quite set.

[ZanaLyrander]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well I should note I also completely whore out with New Game+ so her weapon ranks for Bow Knight are quite set.

I admit, I do this as well, I start basically every run by dropping massive amounts of renown on all my characters, so I probably have a fairly distorted view of what's viable and what's not at this point. A ton of stuff is viable in NG+ that really isn't in a new game.

Edited March 24, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[ZanaLyrander]

20 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Ingrid says hi!

Ingrid is indeed a more viable magic user for providing most of magic Benie's advantages. The only real advantage Bernie has over Ingrid is Rescue. But still, I've had a lot of fun with Ingrid as a mage. Ingrid can kinda do anything, she can be viable with almost any class, which is neat.

With her high speed and resistance, Ingrid has actually become my favorite fortress knight oddly enough. She's got good enough strength and defense, and her speed and resistance are high enough to compensate for the natural weakness of the fortress knight in those areas.

[Dark Holy Elf]

24 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

Her extra speed is always nice. I never really double with Dorothea, Anette, or basically any mage other than a reclassed Felix maybe, but Bernadetta can do a decent job with it, so I honestly feel like she has a better shot one rounding than other mages, aside from Constance and maybe Lysithea. She one rounded for me more than many of my other units on maddening.

Bernadetta has the same speed as Lysithea (50% growth is pretty good, but 7 base is meh), and Lysithea doesn't double much on Maddening in my experience, besides armours. Now if we were talking about Ingrid it'd be another matter.

My own experience is that outside armours, it's much easier to one-shot than double for a mage in this game. Enemy archers and sword-users are particularly easy to one-shot for a huge part of the game. There are many methods to increase power in this game (Magic Staff, battalion, +might adjutants), and relatively fewer to increase speed (cooking is probably the main place speed has an edge; I admit I don't use that as often as I should).

Even if we assume Persecution Complex is active (a negative point which other mages don't require), a lot of mages have more peak one-shot magic damage potential than Bernadetta - spells like Agnea's Arrow, Ragnarok, and Hades Omega have much higher power than Fimbulvetr (which, as already discussed, she gets late), and magic combat arts can do more still, with the downside of requiring melee range. Non-Vengeance Bernadetta is always going to have less kill potential than other mages, as such.

32 minutes ago, Shaky Jones said:

Her extra speed is always nice. I never really double with Dorothea, Anette, or basically any mage other than a reclassed Felix maybe, but Bernadetta can do a decent job with it, so I honestly feel like she has a better shot one rounding than other mages, aside from Constance and maybe Lysithea. She one rounded for me more than many of my other units on maddening.

All of this is of course totally fair, but sometimes you may find yourself in a situation which threatens to overwhelm you. If a monster is involved, it's often easier to spend one action Enclosing them while you deal with everything else threatening you that turn. If you never find yourself in this situation, then Encloser doesn't matter... but then, arguably, neither does anything else. I generally respect abilities which provide value when I am most in need of help. The main knock on Encloser, to me, is that at A-rank it's gained relatively late. (These days I probably respect Banshee more just because it's earlier.) Although at least the main targets Encloser is useful for show up more often late anyway.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Shaky Jones said:

I suppose it can help there, but I personally hardly find a good use for it. It's probably my playstyle. Everything near me has to die by the end of the turn. I also just prefer stunning monsters with gambits after using stride to rush them before they can do anything. But encloser is probably more fun to strategize with than 500 curved shot users.

Honestly, I'd consider Encloser more useful than gambits for dealing with monsters, mainly because offensive gambits are only limited to 1 or 2 uses a map. You also need high charm for good gambit hit rates - which, needless to say, not everyone has.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I'd consider Encloser more useful than gambits for dealing with monsters, mainly because offensive gambits are only limited to 1 or 2 uses a map. You also need high charm for good gambit hit rates - which, needless to say, not everyone has.

1-2 gambits per map isn't that big an issue when you're fielding 10-12 units. It feels like it's limiting, but you really won't need to use more than 20 per chapter. Units also don't really have much issue hitting monsters in my experience. It's regular old enemies that have an issue with gambits and accuracy. In addition, gambits let you break multiple enemy shields in one attack, which is useful not only for incapacitating the monster but also for getting ore. On the other hand Bernadetta alone circling a monster and slowly breaking all its shields using encloser from 3 range is just hilarious in of itself.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I'd consider Encloser more useful than gambits for dealing with monsters, mainly because offensive gambits are only limited to 1 or 2 uses a map. You also need high charm for good gambit hit rates - which, needless to say, not everyone has.

Most monsters, excepting a few bosses, have incredibly low Charm. So it's pretty easy to hit 100 Hit with a linked attack bonus.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

Ingrid says hi!

Yeah Ingrid is faster, but that's why I specified "obvious Mage candidates". Looking at "sometimes Mages", Bernie ties with the likes of Sylvain, Hilda, and Ignatz, while being behind Ingrid, Manuela, Anna, and Yuri. Bernie's not the fastest reasonable Mage candidate, granted, but she's faster than most "dedicated" magic-users.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I'd agree with all of this. In the situation that you want a Rescue user and are willing to invest and don't have the DLC, then Bernadetta would definitely be my first choice. Agree about Constance, too. Dark Flier Constance is certainly the most use that I've personally got from Rescue.

Anecdotally, I used Dark Flier Constance's Rescue to two-turn Gronder II on VW Maddening. Basically, she moved a bit, cast Rescue on Dancer Marianne, then Canto'd away. Marianne moves in to Dance for her. Constance can now double (and one-round) Edelgard. Sylvain was handling Dimitri on the other side of the map via Swift Strikes Luin, with help from Warpsithea.

1 hour ago, Shaky Jones said:

I've probably done it for every person who can use the class, but usually in the background of runs they're not involved in for future ng+ runs. Like, you have a unit learn riding in one playthrough, then they become an adjutant for a while to learn the skill, then you use that skill in the next run. For doing it in the same run, it's annoying. If the person you're training is already going for a horse class, it's fine, but it's hardly the case for me, so I wouldn't recommend it on most non ng+ runs. I'd rather just go for archer's 20+ hit. 

Yeah that makes sense. Lot more strategies are viable in NG+ than in NG.

45 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Bernadetta has the same speed as Lysithea (50% growth is pretty good, but 7 base is meh), and Lysithea doesn't double much on Maddening in my experience, besides armours. Now if we were talking about Ingrid it'd be another matter.

Lysithea also has much lower Strength, while they deal with similar spell Weight (Swarm, Blizzard, and Thunder are all 4-weight). Bernie won't be the strongest in Magical builds, but those extra points can help her get a point or 2 of AS over Lysithea. Ingrid, of course, is faster than either of them.

[Shadow Mir]

9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

1-2 gambits per map isn't that big an issue when you're fielding 10-12 units. It feels like it's limiting, but you really won't need to use more than 20 per chapter. Units also don't really have much issue hitting monsters in my experience. It's regular old enemies that have an issue with gambits and accuracy. In addition, gambits let you break multiple enemy shields in one attack, which is useful not only for incapacitating the monster but also for getting ore. On the other hand Bernadetta alone circling a monster and slowly breaking all its shields using encloser from 3 range is just hilarious in of itself.

Well, not everyone will have offensive gambits, given that some of the support gambits are insanely useful. Anyway, I agree that most monsters are easy targets for gambits... but the ones that you would really need gambits to break are the Divine Beasts, which have actual charm stats.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, not everyone will have offensive gambits, given that some of the support gambits are insanely useful. Anyway, I agree that most monsters are easy targets for gambits... but the ones that you would really need gambits to break are the Divine Beasts, which have actual charm stats.

Well yeah, support gambits are crazy useful, but you only need one unit running Stride or Impenetrable Shield each. Most of your units will have offensive gambits, for the stat boosts they provide if nothing else.

[lenticular]

55 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah Ingrid is faster, but that's why I specified "obvious Mage candidates". Looking at "sometimes Mages", Bernie ties with the likes of Sylvain, Hilda, and Ignatz, while being behind Ingrid, Manuela, Anna, and Yuri. Bernie's not the fastest reasonable Mage candidate, granted, but she's faster than most "dedicated" magic-users.

Fair enough. I guess I was thrown off by the inclusion of Lorenz, who I very much think of as being in the same sometimes-mage category as Ingrid (with both of them having the same growth rate for magic and strength). If you prefer to classify Lorenz as a more dedicated mage (which is reasonable, even if it's not how I think of him), then what you said makes more sense to me.