Hero Class

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

I'll just copy what Rengor says about hero:

Generally regarded as the worst of the sword-focused classes, it’s ironically the best one. The trick to its success is that innate Vantage – while it is true mastering Mercenary can give you Vantage too, this way you don’t have to grind class mastery and/or can equip some other skill in its place. This combined with Battalion Wrath can create a really low investment unit with a large enemy phase killing potential – examples include Alois, Seteth and Jeritza, all of whom start with Battalion Wrath and join late, so not requiring mastering Mercenary is a good boon. Other than this, the other reason to go into this class is for the useful mastery ability: Defiant Strength’s 8 Str boost is very significant when a large portion of offense happens on Player Phase, or just to boost a wrath/vantage setup. You can calculate damage taken or use something like Blessing to get within the threshold then just don’t get hit and reap the benefits with something like Hunter’s Volley or Fierce Iron Fist. Overall, a really good situational class that gets underrated.

 

Regor is the type of player to switch into a class temporarily just for a mission to exploit their advantages. Examples include changing into thief for ch 6 and ch 7 for the good items you can steal and switching to Hero when a map can be handled well with a Vantage/Battalion Wrath combo. Its also great for low investment high reward builds for units you dont want to waste time grinding for better builds. As Rengor points out, Hero is a great way to make some late joining units have a very powerful Enemy Phase.

In short, Hero is the type of class people that obsess with optimization will switch into when its optimal for a map. They will then switch back to another class for other maps. If that sound tedious to you then just ignore the class. Hero is at its a core a low investment class for creating a strong Enemy Phase unit. Its not necessary to use but it can be hella strong on maddening as long as you avoid the weaknesses of a vantage/wrath build.

The problem isn't that it's tedious. The real problem is that Vantage/Battalion Wrath is pretty crappy and has a bunch of holes. I already find Vantage/Wrath too inconsistent in this game, and the extra micromanaging Vantage/Battalion Wrath requires doesn't help.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Vantage/Battalion Wrath is pretty much the ultimate gimmick strategy. Finnicky as hell, tricky to set up, and only occasionally useful when you do due to its many holes, but watching a unit kill half a dozen or more enemies on one enemy phase just feels good. In fact, for players who like these strategies, managing all the difficulties and moving parts of the setup is part of the fun.

Needless to say I don't actually value such things.

[Barren]

To be fair, there is merit to what Regnor was saying in that, yes Hero can be a low investment build for some of part 2 on all 4 routes. I just kind of wished that Hero or any sword class in general got better buffs for the next main stay FE game not counting Three Hopes which is coming out later this year.

Like you, I too wouldn’t try to do a Vantage + B.Wrath build because managing both HP and your battalion’s endurance is a chore. I’d personally just do either one or the other if I’m going for a wrath build.

[Bylift]

On 3/24/2022 at 3:02 PM, Shadow Mir said:

In a word: No. In general, someone who would be good as a Hero would be better as a Swordmaster or Assassin. Vantage can be picked up earlier by mastering Mercenary. The worst of it is that Hero is male-exclusive.

To be frank, Vantage/Battalion Wrath is pretty crappy thanks to needing to meet two thresholds at the same time. The only good thing about it is that you don't have to master Warrior... which ain't enough to offset the fact that it has all the problems of vanilla Vantage/Wrath setups, in addition to pretty much forcing you to swap battalions every couple of fights or so, given that you have to purposefully take damage for it to work, and if that damage is coming from battles, you get closer and closer to losing your battalion, and with it the bonuses it gives you.

THANK YOU.

Setting up vantage/wrath, let alone the battalion variants, is clunky and unreliable. Dodge tanking and countering is far safer and more consistent than any type of V/W setup.

[Barren]

On 4/7/2022 at 4:44 PM, Bylift said:

THANK YOU.

Setting up vantage/wrath, let alone the battalion variants, is clunky and unreliable. Dodge tanking and countering is far safer and more consistent than any type of V/W setup.

Dimitri’s Battalion Vantage + Battalion Wrath I would argue is still manageable because you simply pick a battalion that offers good stats especially in hit and crits and then once Dimitri reaches authority rank A which shouldn’t be too hard to do, then it’s worth the investment.

Yes dodge tanking is one of the best builds in three houses there is no doubt. But this setup for me was a godsend on maddening.

[5PointGordin]

2 hours ago, Barren said:

Dimitri’s Battalion Vantage + Battalion Wrath I would argue is still manageable because you simply pick a battalion that offers good stats especially in hit and crits and then once Dimitri reaches authority rank A which shouldn’t be too hard to do, then it’s worth the investment.

Yes dodge tanking is one of the best builds in three houses there is no doubt. But this setup for me was a godsend on maddening.

I'm using this setup on Maddening with the Chalice. its pretty strong no doubt, but can be a bit unreliable if you aren't running Killer Lance+ on Dimitri. Additinoally, enemies with Lancebreaker will be pretty annoying to deal with since Dimitri's hit% chance on them will be low. The combo is bad vs monsters, since Dimitri can't break their barrier in one round. Also, if your battalion gets damaged or you put Dimitri on a purple / yellow tile, Dimitri will be put out of the BVBW range. The former situation is esp bad since you can't use gambits anymore on player phase.

Edited April 10, 2022 by 5PointGordin

[Barren]

6 hours ago, 5PointGordin said:

I'm using this setup on Maddening with the Chalice. its pretty strong no doubt, but can be a bit unreliable if you aren't running Killer Lance+ on Dimitri. Additinoally, enemies with Lancebreaker will be pretty annoying to deal with since Dimitri's hit% chance on them will be low. The combo is bad vs monsters, since Dimitri can't break their barrier in one round. Also, if your battalion gets damaged or you put Dimitri on a purple / yellow tile, Dimitri will be put out of the BVBW range. The former situation is esp bad since you can't use gambits anymore on player phase.

Good points as this does has it draw backs. But you don’t have to necessarily have to have Killer Lance for Dimitri.

There is also Wo Dao if you want to avoid the lancebreaker+ issue that you pointed out. From my experience I do tend to occasionally either switch between his sword and lance for his high crit build, or if possible have someone else like Byleth for example take care of the warriors and wyvern riders that tend to have lancebreaker+.

You’re right about monsters with their barriers up that they negate crits. I generally just wait until their barriers are destroyed then it’s fair game after that. And you are also right about not being %100 full proof. Sometimes he’ll fail to crit and then get hit. But for me, it worked more often than it didn’t.
 

Dimitri is also capable of dodge tanking if you want to give him sword avoid+20 and Gautier Knights Co. which grants him another 20 avoid. His upgraded personal ability when at full HP. 

[Shadow Mir]

On 4/7/2022 at 3:44 PM, Bylift said:

THANK YOU.

Setting up vantage/wrath, let alone the battalion variants, is clunky and unreliable. Dodge tanking and countering is far safer and more consistent than any type of V/W setup.

Honestly, Dimitri's B.Vantage/B.Wrath setup is still very powerful, largely because it doesn't require him to have low health. It ain't 100% foolproof, but still...

[5PointGordin]

3 hours ago, Barren said:

Good points as this does has it draw backs. But you don’t have to necessarily have to have Killer Lance for Dimitri.

There is also Wo Dao if you want to avoid the lancebreaker+ issue that you pointed out. From my experience I do tend to occasionally either switch between his sword and lance for his high crit build, or if possible have someone else like Byleth for example take care of the warriors and wyvern riders that tend to have lancebreaker+.

You’re right about monsters with their barriers up that they negate crits. I generally just wait until their barriers are destroyed then it’s fair game after that. And you are also right about not being %100 full proof. Sometimes he’ll fail to crit and then get hit. But for me, it worked more often than it didn’t.
 

Dimitri is also capable of dodge tanking if you want to give him sword avoid+20 and Gautier Knights Co. which grants him another 20 avoid. His upgraded personal ability when at full HP. 

Really most of the issues I mentioned are more noticeable at lower levels when Dimitri's Attack, Speed, crit, etc. aren't as high. I used him for chapter 14 / 15 today on maddening and he was reliably killing every last one of them with a Training lance+ in hand (even stuff like Falcoknights, warriors, Forretress knights, etc,). I never considered running Wo Dao+ on him since it doesn't get boosted by double lancefaire, but you probably are right that it would have largely resolved the issues I was having against the Axe enemies on chapters like Anna / Lorenz's paralogues (where I just warped Dimitri to a forest tile expecting him to go god mode when a bit of additional setup was required) (esp since I sometimes wasn't aware of enemy gambits).

Sword Avoid +20 is actually a pretty good option that I didn't consider. Might make Dimitri a dancer on another Blue Lion's playthrough down the line.

EDIT: Actually, Swordmaster Dimitri seems like a really cool option the more I think about it. Innate Sword Critical +10, + Swords higher accuracy makes him more reliable vs , rapier is a crit weapon that is effective against stuff like Cavs so he'll still KO them w/o a crit, and Astra might make his player phase a bit better, though that's more of a bonus. Dimitri's speed as a Paladin was a bit of a sticking point for me since he gets doubled by everything, but IDK if Swordmaster's speed bonus + additional growth rate will be enough to fix this issue.

Edited April 11, 2022 by 5PointGordin

[Barren]

@5PointGordin

Swordmaster Dimitri and Paladin Dimitri have their pros and cons. Paladin Dimitri is slower but tends to have a bit more flexibility imo because while we already talked about his BnB, he also gets Windsweep as a combat art so he could still have a good player phase where he can get a free hit and could set up kills for his teammates since his strength growth is really high. And canto let’s him move into a safer position afterwards especially when coupled with stride. Forest, lava and sand terrain will always be a issue for him but for the most part the Azure Moon chapters don’t really hinder Paladins too much, it’s just there are a couple of chapters where it may not be the best option because you’re on a horse.

You pretty much covered his advantages as a Swordmaster as he’ll be more likely to score crits on both phases especially when given the right build. Of course 5 move isn’t great so you would need Stride, dancing and probably some warp/rescue movement tech to get Dimitri into position. It can totally work, but he’ll need enough support to be effective.

Others would consider him going Wyvern Lord but his axe bane makes it tough for him to achieve. It’s mostly a very long term investment but his growths would be pretty insane if you were to make it there.

[RaIsMyPet]

dodge+BWrath > BVBW >> vanilla dodge tank > impregnable wall >> other gimmicky builds

out of all of these, I found sword avoid wyvern with BW the most reliable, but Dimitri is close if no monsters or ballistas. Vanilla dodge tanks are just unreliable to kill and sometimes they pull too many enemies without killing them.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, RaIsMyPet said:

dodge+BWrath > BVBW >> vanilla dodge tank > impregnable wall >> other gimmicky builds

out of all of these, I found sword avoid wyvern with BW the most reliable, but Dimitri is close if no monsters or ballistas. Vanilla dodge tanks are just unreliable to kill and sometimes they pull too many enemies without killing them.

I would disagree here, largely because dodgetank+Battalion Wrath sounds more like a "win-more" combo. Ergo, Battalion Wrath doesn't help that much.

[RaIsMyPet]

17 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I would disagree here, largely because dodgetank+Battalion Wrath sounds more like a "win-more" combo. Ergo, Battalion Wrath doesn't help that much.

I suspect you never actually used and compared the two.

If you actually used Petra/Claude versus Ingrid/Ferdinand as dodge tanks, during multiple playthroughs, they are on completely different levels.

E.g. Ingrid is basically a safe option to pull enemies and breaks her weapons way too fast even with WoDao crit. Sometimes it’s detrimental to let her pull too many enemies because other units might get overwhelmed, especially if you play aggressively. Late into the game a low crit dodge tank is not even capable of choking because how many movement enemies have.

On the other hand, dodge tanks with BW can kill 99% of the time so it means you basically have twice as much the offensive and defensive power and so can spread very thin while maintaining very good offense level at all fronts. It allows you to play very fast and not missing more rewards like warp-skipping or Ragingstorm-spamming.

[lenticular]

56 minutes ago, RaIsMyPet said:

I suspect you never actually used and compared the two.

If you actually used Petra/Claude versus Ingrid/Ferdinand as dodge tanks, during multiple playthroughs, they are on completely different levels.

E.g. Ingrid is basically a safe option to pull enemies and breaks her weapons way too fast even with WoDao crit. Sometimes it’s detrimental to let her pull too many enemies because other units might get overwhelmed, especially if you play aggressively. Late into the game a low crit dodge tank is not even capable of choking because how many movement enemies have.

On the other hand, dodge tanks with BW can kill 99% of the time so it means you basically have twice as much the offensive and defensive power and so can spread very thin while maintaining very good offense level at all fronts. It allows you to play very fast and not missing more rewards like warp-skipping or Ragingstorm-spamming.

A well-built dodge tank is more than capable of soloing the game, even on maddening, even if you don't build for crit at all. It potentially takes more turns to kill everything, but so what? If you want to make sure that you aren't pulling aggro onto the rest of your party, you just need to fly far enough ahead that units who attack the dodge tank aren't in range of the rest of the party.

There's nothing wrong with stacking crit on a dodge tank, whether from Battalion Wrath, Defiant Crit, or any other source, and if you have them available then there's really no reason not to. But they're not at all necessary. They can help you win faster, but they aren't actually helping you win. You've already won once you have a dodgetank set up.

Unless you're talking about a specific context like a LTC where being able to win quickly actually matters, then the main difference between a crit dodgetank and a regular dodgetank is one of style, not effectiveness.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, RaIsMyPet said:

I suspect you never actually used and compared the two.

If you actually used Petra/Claude versus Ingrid/Ferdinand as dodge tanks, during multiple playthroughs, they are on completely different levels.

E.g. Ingrid is basically a safe option to pull enemies and breaks her weapons way too fast even with WoDao crit. Sometimes it’s detrimental to let her pull too many enemies because other units might get overwhelmed, especially if you play aggressively. Late into the game a low crit dodge tank is not even capable of choking because how many movement enemies have.

On the other hand, dodge tanks with BW can kill 99% of the time so it means you basically have twice as much the offensive and defensive power and so can spread very thin while maintaining very good offense level at all fronts. It allows you to play very fast and not missing more rewards like warp-skipping or Ragingstorm-spamming.

You're missing the point I'm trying to make here, which is that Battalion Wrath isn't THAT helpful when I'm already in good shape with a dodgetank ready. It may take more turns, but so what? On the other hand, Dimitri's BVantage/BWrath setup is legitimately powerful.

[5PointGordin]

8 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

You're missing the point I'm trying to make here, which is that Battalion Wrath isn't THAT helpful when I'm already in good shape with a dodgetank ready. It may take more turns, but so what? On the other hand, Dimitri's BVantage/BWrath setup is legitimately powerful.

IDK, I see the merit with Dodgetank + Battalion Wrath since you can clear out a good chunk of strong enemies fast with it. If the enemy is alive, that can put the rest of your army at risk ,esp since maddening enemies can be pretty OP at times.

Dimitri's Battalion Wrath + Vantage is also still pretty good, but I see the merit in dodgetanking over Battalion Vantage since you kill enemies more reliably and don't have to run things like the chalice or retribution, worry about enemy battalions, Monsters, etc. Also, not getting hit means that you stay in Battalion Wrath Range significantly easier. I will try it with Falcon Knight Petra on my next run of the game.

Edited April 11, 2022 by 5PointGordin

[RaIsMyPet]

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

A well-built dodge tank is more than capable of soloing the game, even on maddening, even if you don't build for crit at all. It potentially takes more turns to kill everything, but so what? If you want to make sure that you aren't pulling aggro onto the rest of your party, you just need to fly far enough ahead that units who attack the dodge tank aren't in range of the rest of the party.

There's nothing wrong with stacking crit on a dodge tank, whether from Battalion Wrath, Defiant Crit, or any other source, and if you have them available then there's really no reason not to. But they're not at all necessary. They can help you win faster, but they aren't actually helping you win. You've already won once you have a dodgetank set up.

Unless you're talking about a specific context like a LTC where being able to win quickly actually matters, then the main difference between a crit dodgetank and a regular dodgetank is one of style, not effectiveness.

I’m not saying vanilla dodge tanks can’t be good, just unreliable to kill and sometimes it’s really annoying when rng isn’t on your side which is bound to happen during multiple play throughs.

Also, sometimes you start a map already being semi-surrounded and dodge tank who can kill one flank fast is a godsend (like Silver Snow final map)

Sometimes vanilla dodge tanks just take forever to clear those infinite reinforcements. Once I used Ingrid during AM final chapter. She just can’t kill those warmasters fast enough to get into that room to block the stairs. Not that I strictly needed her to kill Edelgard, but losing a reliable chip damage against big monster boss is always a loss. At another time, I used Petra instead and she one-shots those warmasters with a simple silver sword. Easy.

Finally, I’m not talking about crit stacking in general, but only BWrath. Things like DefCrit is gimmicky as hell and shouldn’t enter the conversation (dodge tank with DefCrit? seriously? you want to first use devil weapon for like 4 turns in order to setup?)

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You're missing the point I'm trying to make here, which is that Battalion Wrath isn't THAT helpful when I'm already in good shape with a dodgetank ready. It may take more turns, but so what? On the other hand, Dimitri's BVantage/BWrath setup is legitimately powerful.

I thought your point being BW doesn’t matter? Apparently it does since BWDodge functions as an improved version of Dimitri while VanillaDodge is a nerfed version and takes longer (if you really used it, it’s much much longer during hard maps)

Dimitri’s setup is indeed powerful and I consider it second best EP option as I already said.

2 hours ago, 5PointGordin said:

IDK, I see the merit with Dodgetank + Battalion Wrath since you can clear out a good chunk of strong enemies fast with it. If the enemy is alive, that can put the rest of your army at risk ,esp since maddening enemies can be pretty OP at times.

Dimitri's Battalion Wrath + Vantage is also still pretty good, but I see the merit in dodgetanking over Battalion Vantage since you kill enemies more reliably and don't have to run things like the chalice or retribution, worry about enemy battalions, Monsters, etc. Also, not getting hit means that you stay in Battalion Wrath Range significantly easier. I will try it with Falcon Knight Petra on my next run of the game.

I appreciate someone would like to try it. A few suggestions from me: 1. use wyvern instead of falcon; 2. really really use sword instead of any other weapon and get sword avo; 3. Cichol Wyvern Co instead of Galatea or Immortal; 4. Rapier is a must for killing heavy armors; 5. A-rank adjutant for reliable dodging lance users and hitting them; 6. just get Hit+20, no need to bother with Death Blow if you are in a hurry

Finally, if you are being hit by anything other than gambit or struggle to kill anything not a super boss, you probably built it wrong.

Unless you are OK with very long and tedious waiting, after trying this build I don’t see why people would use anything else other than this.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, RaIsMyPet said:

Finally, I’m not talking about crit stacking in general, but only BWrath. Things like DefCrit is gimmicky as hell and shouldn’t enter the conversation (dodge tank with DefCrit? seriously? you want to first use devil weapon for like 4 turns in order to setup?)

You could use a Guard adjutant or Blessing gambit to safely into Defiant range on the first player phase.

Also, with careful calculation, the Devil Weapon plus Impregnable Wall could get you into Defiant range after the first enemy phase. Since you'll be losing 10 HP (non-lethal) per comvat session. You just have to make sure you don't wind up in combat with just 1 or 2 HP.

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You're missing the point I'm trying to make here, which is that Battalion Wrath isn't THAT helpful when I'm already in good shape with a dodgetank ready. It may take more turns, but so what? On the other hand, Dimitri's BVantage/BWrath setup is legitimately powerful.

Somewhere, somehow, an LTC player is getting goosebumps.

...Ahem. It should go without saying that a strategy that clears the map in fewer turns is, assuming equal reliability, preferable to one thst takes more turns. The question, then, becomes one of reliability, and ease of setup.

17 hours ago, Barren said:

Swordmaster Dimitri and Paladin Dimitri have their pros and cons. Paladin Dimitri is slower but tends to have a bit more flexibility imo because while we already talked about his BnB, he also gets Windsweep as a combat art so he could still have a good player phase where he can get a free hit and could set up kills for his teammates since his strength growth is really high. And canto let’s him move into a safer position afterwards especially when coupled with stride. Forest, lava and sand terrain will always be a issue for him but for the most part the Azure Moon chapters don’t really hinder Paladins too much, it’s just there are a couple of chapters where it may not be the best option because you’re on a horse.

Why Windsweep, when Paladin Dimitri kills just about everyone with a Brave Lance on Player Phase? It's a good combat art, true, and I can see its uses against Monsters and Bosses in particular. But hitting A Swords isn't particularly easy, especially in light of his post-skip delinquency, assuming he's mainly training in Lances (his most powerful weapon type in Paladin). I can see a technical niche for "Sword Paladin Dimitri", but building the hardest-hitting unit in the game around a "chip" combat art feels... weird.

Unless the intent is "Windsweep on Player Phase, BVBW on Enemy Phase". Which I can see, but it's still pretty high-effort by the timeskip (A Swords, C+ Lances, A Authority, C+ Riding). And you're doing less enemy-phase damage with Swords than any of the Swordfaire classes. You could trade around so he has a Lance equipped, but then you're managing two Prowess types (and possibly two Breakers), cluttering the skill list.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Somewhere, somehow, an LTC player is getting goosebumps.

...Ahem. It should go without saying that a strategy that clears the map in fewer turns is, assuming equal reliability, preferable to one thst takes more turns. The question, then, becomes one of reliability, and ease of setup.

I'm not sure it goes without saying. I'm not particularly sure I agree. If two methods are equally easy and equally reliable, I'm inclined to score them relatively equally. Usually, faster methods are by nature easier - fewer turns means fewer things can go wrong. But I don't think fewer turns is inherently valuable, if that makes sense?

 

Anyway, BWrath can help a dodgetank, but it's not a night-and-day thing. In particular:

• Any BWrath build that can kill all enemies will kill 50% of those enemies even without BWrath, and leaves the rest at low enough HP to be easily swept up.
• Additionally, for the most part, any enemies a dodgetank fails to kill clump up near them. So not only are they at low HP, but they'll be easily gambitted if you prefer.
• BWrath is cool but not free, both in that it eats a skill slot and in that you have to set up a battalion at low HP for it, and will need to re-set it up if things go wrong and the battalion retreats.

I think throwing BWrath on a dodgetank is a solid idea if they get it. But let's be very clear: the dodgetank build is doing the heavy lifting and letting you win the map here. And in general, I'd rather have a good dodgetank than a worse dodgetank who happens to get BWrath. i.e. there's a reason Ingrid is used as a defensive sponge far more often than Caspar. (Obviously Petra/Claude have both and they're both great.)

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, RaIsMyPet said:

I thought your point being BW doesn’t matter? Apparently it does since BWDodge functions as an improved version of Dimitri while VanillaDodge is a nerfed version and takes longer (if you really used it, it’s much much longer during hard maps)

Dimitri’s setup is indeed powerful and I consider it second best EP option as I already said.

Problem is, it's the "dodge" part doing the heavy lifting. Second, most characters that get Battalion Wrath (aka everyone except Hilda, Dimitri and Claude) don't have the best of charm stats, creating a very undesirable weakness to gambits (needless to say, getting rattled is bad when your strategy is dependent on a single unit killing everything; even if you don't get killed as a result, you're suddenly much more vulnerable to attacks, and may even lose your battalion). Ergo, BW on a dodgetank is win-more. On the flipside, BV/BW turns a shitty situation into a good one for me.

8 hours ago, 5PointGordin said:

IDK, I see the merit with Dodgetank + Battalion Wrath since you can clear out a good chunk of strong enemies fast with it. If the enemy is alive, that can put the rest of your army at risk ,esp since maddening enemies can be pretty OP at times.

Dimitri's Battalion Wrath + Vantage is also still pretty good, but I see the merit in dodgetanking over Battalion Vantage since you kill enemies more reliably and don't have to run things like the chalice or retribution, worry about enemy battalions, Monsters, etc. Also, not getting hit means that you stay in Battalion Wrath Range significantly easier. I will try it with Falcon Knight Petra on my next run of the game.

See above.

[Barren]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Why Windsweep, when Paladin Dimitri kills just about everyone with a Brave Lance on Player Phase? It's a good combat art, true, and I can see its uses against Monsters and Bosses in particular. But hitting A Swords isn't particularly easy, especially in light of his post-skip delinquency, assuming he's mainly training in Lances (his most powerful weapon type in Paladin). I can see a technical niche for "Sword Paladin Dimitri", but building the hardest-hitting unit in the game around a "chip" combat art feels... weird.

Unless the intent is "Windsweep on Player Phase, BVBW on Enemy Phase". Which I can see, but it's still pretty high-effort by the timeskip (A Swords, C+ Lances, A Authority, C+ Riding). And you're doing less enemy-phase damage with Swords than any of the Swordfaire classes. You could trade around so he has a Lance equipped, but then you're managing two Prowess types (and possibly two Breakers), cluttering the skill list.

I had Hit+20 on him to compensate for the lack of weapon prowess. So being able to switch between sword and lance for Dimitri pending on what I need him for tends to be less of a chore than normal. Especially if I also have Paladin Dedue provide a link bonus for him. Plus Dimitri can still have Wo Dao equipped for Windsweep and being able to crit on the same set. I’ve gotten use out of Wo Dao Dimitri quite a lot on my Azure Moon run.

 

In fact he scored two crits in a row on Hedgemon Edelgard on enemy phase on her last life bar effectively one rounding her. I switched him out of Paladin into Great Lord because he needed a better time getting on the stairs and having the extra avoid due to a better speed stat helped out.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Barren

[RaIsMyPet]

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

You could use a Guard adjutant or Blessing gambit to safely into Defiant range on the first player phase.

Also, with careful calculation, the Devil Weapon plus Impregnable Wall could get you into Defiant range after the first enemy phase. Since you'll be losing 10 HP (non-lethal) per comvat session. You just have to make sure you don't wind up in combat with just 1 or 2 HP.

Guard adjutant is not available for most dodge tanks, and both guard adjutant and blessing is moot because dodge tanks don’t get hit at all.

careful calculation with devil weapon is fine and I indeed forgot that point, but still it’s a weapon extremely expensive to repair and sometimes you just want a turn 1 retribution and send your dodge tanks out. with retribution on they may counter too many enemies and wasted durability of devil weapons for future maps.

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm not sure it goes without saying. I'm not particularly sure I agree. If two methods are equally easy and equally reliable, I'm inclined to score them relatively equally. Usually, faster methods are by nature easier - fewer turns means fewer things can go wrong. But I don't think fewer turns is inherently valuable, if that makes sense?

 

Anyway, BWrath can help a dodgetank, but it's not a night-and-day thing. In particular:

• Any BWrath build that can kill all enemies will kill 50% of those enemies even without BWrath, and leaves the rest at low enough HP to be easily swept up.
• Additionally, for the most part, any enemies a dodgetank fails to kill clump up near them. So not only are they at low HP, but they'll be easily gambitted if you prefer.
• BWrath is cool but not free, both in that it eats a skill slot and in that you have to set up a battalion at low HP for it, and will need to re-set it up if things go wrong and the battalion retreats.

I think throwing BWrath on a dodgetank is a solid idea if they get it. But let's be very clear: the dodgetank build is doing the heavy lifting and letting you win the map here. And in general, I'd rather have a good dodgetank than a worse dodgetank who happens to get BWrath. i.e. there's a reason Ingrid is used as a defensive sponge far more often than Caspar. (Obviously Petra/Claude have both and they're both great.)

Again, I’m not saying dodge tanks can’t be good, but there are situations that it is day and night especially when the map gets demanding (see my Ingrid example on infinite reinforcements, where 50% kill rate just doesn’t cut it, unless you are willing to let your dodge tank stuck at one corner of the map)

As you said, enemy clumping can be a problem since other enemies will just ignore your dodge tank and go for your squishy units.

I also agree that dodge is the key and BW is add-on, but significant enough during harder part of the later game. I doubted this myself at first whether BW truly matters, and after many sessions of overleveled Ingrid and Yuri(NG+) my conclusion is yes, Petra/Claude is just that much better.

Lastly, I’m not looking for fewer turns itself. I like to kill every last one of them and dislike warp skipping. My point is if no BW you are not infrequently in some tedious waiting (aka more turns not because of doing anything but just down time) and that is inherently worse.

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Problem is, it's the "dodge" part doing the heavy lifting. Second, most characters that get Battalion Wrath (aka everyone except Hilda, Dimitri and Claude) don't have the best of charm stats, creating a very undesirable weakness to gambits (needless to say, getting rattled is bad when your strategy is dependent on a single unit killing everything; even if you don't get killed as a result, you're suddenly much more vulnerable to attacks, and may even lose your battalion). Ergo, BW on a dodgetank is win-more. On the flipside, BV/BW turns a shitty situation into a good one for me.

See above.

Your charm point shows you indeed never tested it yourself. Even with Petra’s mediocre charm, with dancer’s +5 charm she constantly out-charms most enemy by a large margin, especially when she kills a lot she’s naturally several levels higher than most units to further compensate. charm is not a problem once a unit has at least medium level charm growth.

Also, if you really thoroughly used dodge tanks like me, you would know that so many enemies with battalions can be baited without them gambit: like a sniper with 1-range gambit, or dark bishop with Death, or bow knights. Also, sometimes it’s desirable to deliberately let enemy have 10 hit instead of 0 so they would attack you normally, but 10 hit is 2% true hit. You are rarely in the must-risk-gambit situation.

Edited April 12, 2022 by RaIsMyPet

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, RaIsMyPet said:

Again, I’m not saying dodge tanks can’t be good, but there are situations that it is day and night especially when the map gets demanding (see my Ingrid example on infinite reinforcements, where 50% kill rate just doesn’t cut it, unless you are willing to let your dodge tank stuck at one corner of the map)

As you said, enemy clumping can be a problem since other enemies will just ignore your dodge tank and go for your squishy units.

 

I mean, in my statement I said I clearly don't think enemy clumping is a problem, because clumps of injured enemies are the easiest thing to take out in this game. You can either pick them off if you have a lot of hands available (even weaker attacks like Curved Shot and long-distance basic spells may do), or drop a gambit on their heads and counter a bunch of them to death the next enemy phase.

As for the infinite War Master reinforcements, I pretty much always keep a unit or even two to deal with them anyway (e.g. a Sniper with a backup mage/healer should the Sniper fail to crit). Maybe this is a flaw in how I build the rest of my team, but I usually have far fewer than 12 units able to safely engage the AM final boss (33 AS + significant crit), so it's not a big deal to have a unit tied up there long-term.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm not sure it goes without saying. I'm not particularly sure I agree. If two methods are equally easy and equally reliable, I'm inclined to score them relatively equally. Usually, faster methods are by nature easier - fewer turns means fewer things can go wrong. But I don't think fewer turns is inherently valuable, if that makes sense?

By that logic, Turtling is the best strategy. Suppose I have two units: one with a 100% chance of surviving against a given enemy, and one with a 95% chance. From a pure reliability standpoint, I should only draw out one enemy at a time. But by drawing out two, I can finish the map in shorter order.

Unless stated otherwise, I'm assuming that efficiency is one of the metrics by which the quality of play is assessed. It's possible to compare strategies in a "turncount-neutral" context, sure, but it's not my immediate assumption. 

1 hour ago, RaIsMyPet said:

Guard adjutant is not available for most dodge tanks, and both guard adjutant and blessing is moot because dodge tanks don’t get hit at all.

The point is to get hit until you activate Defiant Avoid, then go to town.

2 hours ago, Barren said:

I had Hit+20 on him to compensate for the lack of weapon prowess. So being able to switch between sword and lance for Dimitri pending on what I need him for tends to be less of a chore than normal. Especially if I also have Paladin Dedue provide a link bonus for him. Plus Dimitri can still have Wo Dao equipped for Windsweep and being able to crit on the same set. I’ve gotten use out of Wo Dao Dimitri quite a lot on my Azure Moon run.

Interesting technique, sounds like it could be fun. A link bonus from Dedue is always welcome. Still, I'd prefer having both Hit +20 and a relevant Prowess. Were you able to get this setup by the timeskip? Again, it sounds like it would demand a lot of tutoring. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

By that logic, Turtling is the best strategy. Suppose I have two units: one with a 100% chance of surviving against a given enemy, and one with a 95% chance. From a pure reliability standpoint, I should only draw out one enemy at a time. But by drawing out two, I can finish the map in shorter order.

 

Turtling certainly can be the best strategy sometimes. That said, there's a lot of reasons why it often isn't:

• Many Fire Emblem maps include time pressure such as treasure chests to reach, NPCs to save, or just a turn count limit as a loss condition. If your strategy relies on moving slowly, you will miss rewards, and run into trouble in certain maps. A player who is able to move reasonably quickly will be more ready for the array of challenges Fire Emblem can throw at her.
• Some Fire Emblem maps use time-based reinforcements. Awakening for one I know well, often drops a large group of reinforcements on you a few turns in, sometimes even near your starting point. If you move very slowly those can be very dangerous indeed.
• Finally, although small, some games literally directly reward you for completing maps within certain times (the Tellius games, most obviously, with their bonus exp). Though it's worth noting those times are quite reasonable, and nowhere near LTC numbers.

As someone who plays FE faster than most of their friends because I enjoy the game more that way, I'm very aware that turtle strategies can run into major problems. I also acknowledge that sometimes they're objectively superior. If a map provides no pressure whatsoever and most enemies are passive until aggroed, then yes, baiting the smallest number of enemies possible and then gang-beating them is the easiest way to win. For example, Chapter 2 of Three Houses is a an example of a map which is quite simple if you let the enemies come at you two or three at a time, and more aggressive play (baiting further enemies before you're ready) just makes the map harder, and should not be suggested as the way to play the map.