Echoes: SoV Balance patch vague concept

[Emperor Hardin]

Just throwing an idea out there, but I was thinking of a balance patch for Echoes: Shadows of Valentia that could be interesting to test anyhow.

The ideas would be

1. Knights have 5 MOV and Barons have 7 Mov instead of 4 MOV for both classes.
2. Baron's heavy armor now halves damage from Lances and maybe claws (EX: Zombie weapons, Dracozombie bite, Dragon melee attack but not Tentacle, Breath or Skeleton sword weapons) in place of halve bows.
3. Barons can also equip obtainable axes as a bit of an easter egg/minor ability (not sure if possible with current hacking tools). 

DreadFighter's halve magic damage might also need to be nerfed and the cavalry line could use some sort of improvement but I can't think of what would work at the moment outside of undoing the nerfs to individual lance weaponry. I'm mainly curious as to how 7 MOV Barons would change the game. Anyhow its just a thought that suddenly came to me and anyone who wants to hack SOV is free to use these ideas to their heart's content.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Emperor Hardin

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Honestly I don't think the Knight/Baron classes are that bad, currently. Yeah their movement sucks, but there are a variety of ways to help them out (Warp, Rescue, Shove, Swap, Speed Ring, Boots). They're still your best class for "choking the point" on those "east-west river with a single bridge" maps common to Alm's side. Or for luring Grieth in his map. And in dungeons, the maps are often so small that their low movement doesn't matter a whole lot, especially if you Order them so they start towards the front of the party.

Giving them equal move to Myrmidons and Dread Fighters, and far more move than magical classes, would be awkward as all get-out. I'm not opposed to them getting Axes, although the Devil Axe is the only strong one, so this would make little difference.

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Baron's heavy armor now halves damage from Lances and maybe claws (EX: Zombie weapons, Dracozombie bite, Dragon melee attack but not Tentacle, Breath or Skeleton sword weapons) in place of halve bows.

This feels kind of arbitrary. Why not just halve all damage from physical attacks when under attack (i.e. on enemy phase)? Excepting anti-Armor weapons or combat arts.

EDIT: Hm, what if Barons got Bow access as well? This would make them resemble DSFE Generals moreso, while also giving them a strong ranged option. And it would widen Bow access - right now, the only potential Bow users are Python, Leon, the male Villagers, and Alm. This would add Lukas, Forsyth, and Daddy Valbar unto the mix.

Speaking of which, female units should get Bows too, but that's a topic for another thread.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Bows.

[Emperor Hardin]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Honestly I don't think the Knight/Baron classes are that bad, currently. Yeah their movement sucks, but there are a variety of ways to help them out (Warp, Rescue, Shove, Swap, Speed Ring, Boots). 

All tier lists very strongly disagree with you and people think the class is at their worst with ZERO characters being recommended to be in it.

1. Warp was nerfed from the original and now has a range based on a user's attack, so you can't just teleport Lukas anywhere as soon as Silque learns the spell, as a result his usefulness wanes very early.
2. Rescue isn't enough, nor is Swap or Shove as again they're absurdly behind Snipers and unlike magic users, have no long range abilities to compensate.
3. Speed Ring was nerfed to kingdom come and no longer gives +5 MOV. As a result, Barons would only have 4 MOV with it, which is still terrible and as a result, no one gives it to them.
4. Boots is the same deal and you can only get a maximum of two so Baron units are very unlikely to get them over Alm/Celica or mounted units whom are already high move.

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Giving them equal move to Myrmidons and Dread Fighters, and far more move than magical classes, would be awkward as all get-out.

You're the first and only person, I've read that from. Most players pre-release were hoping IS would do similar with the DS remakes and have the armored class gain MOV upon promotion as in the modern games. Indeed many players hate how the Baron class function in this game and think Valbar/Forsyth are worse than ever.

Besides this is a game where normal Bows can attack at one range, if Archers can buck the standard bow rules in Valentia, why can't Armored classes have a try at normal infantry MOV for once?

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This feels kind of arbitrary. Why not just halve all damage from physical attacks when under attack (i.e. on enemy phase)? Excepting anti-Armor weapons or combat arts.

The enemy never really uses anti armor or combat arts in SOV. And halving damage from all physical attacks might be too much, even with the overabundance of magic enemies, plus the enemy's favorite physical units are cavalry lances.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

All tier lists very strongly disagree with you and people think the class is at their worst with ZERO characters being recommended to be in it.

Obviously, this depends on the tiering mechanism. I have little doubt that Armors are bad in an LTC or highly-efficient playthrough. But in a more casual-paced playthrough, taking just 2 damage per phase from physical enemies, and responding with effective Ridersbane damage, feels pretty nice.

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Warp was nerfed from the original and now has a range based on a user's attack, so you can't just teleport Lukas anywhere as soon as Silque learns the spell, as a result his usefulness wanes very early.

It's not about "can Silque warp Lukas anywhere on the map?", it's about "can Silque warp Lukas far enough that, with his remaining movement, he reaches the bridge chokepoint?". I don't believe either unit has difficulty on this end.

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Speed Ring was nerfed to kingdom come and no longer gives +5 MOV. As a result, Barons would only have 4 MOV with it, which is still terrible and as a result, no one gives it to them.

Speed Ring gives +1 Mov, so Barons have 5 Mov while using it. I'm not saying they're the best users of it (it probably belongs to a Mage or Cleric), just that it's an option.

Also the "this tool is weaker than it was in Gaiden" argument doesn't work against me. I've never played Gaiden, so my judgement of these classes, spells, and tools in Echoes isn't at all tainted by how good or bad they were in its predecessor.

Plus, being worse than "absurdly broken" does not equate to "bad". To the best of my understanding, the Mage Ring is worse in Echoes than it was in Gaiden, yet it's still one of the best equippables in the game.

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You're the first and only person, I've read that from. Most players pre-release were hoping IS would do similar with the DS remakes and have the armored class gain MOV upon promotion as in the modern games. Indeed many players hate how the Baron class function in this game and think Valbar/Forsyth are worse than ever.

Forsyth is pretty bad, but it's mostly due to iffy starting stats and being too far from his promotion. A level 6 Forsyth with identical base stats (thus feasible to promote before Act I ends) would be much better than what we got.

Valbar, I'd say, has his uses. He doesn't really fear the Necrodragons, and he's got great bulk for the Cantor map. Also it's hard to get him into position, but he can draw out some of the Archers in that obnoxious fort, and he's your best bet for safely drawing out Grieth. He doesn't hold up very well into Act IV, I admit.

For the record, I don't think giving 5 Move to Barons, and possibly Knights, would be some game-breaking heresy. But it'd still be weird to see them outpace offensive mages on neutral terrain.

4 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The enemy never really uses anti armor or combat arts in SOV. And halving damage from all physical attacks might be too much, even with the overabundance of magic enemies, plus the enemy's favorite physical units are cavalry lances.

Perhaps, but it would make them more effective at their archetypal role: "slow lumps, weak to Magic, who can nonetheless choke the point against physical enemies for days". Giving Armored units too much moves radically transforms how they operate, and makes them more akin to the player-phase oriented Dread Fighter class. It makes the class better, sure, but also less interesting or unique.

Hope that all came across clearly, even if we're certain to disagree!

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Obviously, this depends on the tiering mechanism. I have little doubt that Armors are bad in an LTC or highly-efficient playthrough. But in a more casual-paced playthrough, taking just 2 damage per phase from physical enemies, and responding with effective Ridersbane damage, feels pretty nice.

In most casual runs, Barons still feel very extremely weak by the point they're competing with 7 MOV Dread Fighters and its easy to see they're never targeted by the rare enemy bow users.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's not about "can Silque warp Lukas anywhere on the map?", it's about "can Silque warp Lukas far enough that, with his remaining movement, he reaches the bridge chokepoint?". I don't believe either unit has difficulty on this end.

There really aren't many choke points in the game and most of the time, Silque won't be able to transport Lukas many places, especially when there's so much competition from units that can reach the enemy after being teleported.

Also keep in mind, the enemy quickly becomes made up mostly of magic users, especially witches.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Speed Ring gives +1 Mov, so Barons have 5 Mov while using it. I'm not saying they're the best users of it (it probably belongs to a Mage or Cleric), just that it's an option.

That was a mistake, I meant to write 5 MOV, if even a sniper is given the speed ring, they'll have 6 MOV and 1-4 range. In other words, 5 MOV is still terrible for Barons.

Mages and Clerics prefer the mage ring.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also the "this tool is weaker than it was in Gaiden" argument doesn't work against me. I've never played Gaiden, so my judgement of these classes, spells, and tools in Echoes isn't at all tainted by how good or bad they were in its predecessor.

How balance worked in the original is entirely relevant to what the remake changed. Again as someone who is brainstorming balancing the DS remake of the third game, checking how the characters were good in the older version is important to see why what was changed that made them not so good in the remake.

If you're going to fix one broken thing like a 5 MOV ring, you should fix the other broken things like a 4 MOV melee only class that competes with a 7 MOV melee class with high resistance and the best weapon, not keep that distinction and make the 7 MOV melee class also halve all magic damage in a game with mostly magic enemies. 

Again you not playing the original doesn't mean it can be disregarded when the remake is being discussed.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Plus, being worse than "absurdly broken" does not equate to "bad". To the best of my understanding, the Mage Ring is worse in Echoes than it was in Gaiden, yet it's still one of the best equippables in the game.

The Mage ring gave +5 range in the original and it gives +2 range in the original, in other words, its much less nerfed than the speed ring was.

Additionally there's far less competition for the mage thing and there's 1~3 range spells which become 1~5  range with the magic ring. Even the summoned illusions are improved by the mage ring.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Forsyth is pretty bad, but it's mostly due to iffy starting stats and being too far from his promotion. A level 6 Forsyth with identical base stats (thus feasible to promote before Act I ends) would be much better than what we got.

Given his other issues, he'd still be low. Keep in mind, Valbar is very low in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia almost solely due to his horrible class line.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Valbar, I'd say, has his uses. He doesn't really fear the Necrodragons, and he's got great bulk for the Cantor map. Also it's hard to get him into position, but he can draw out some of the Archers in that obnoxious fort, and he's your best bet for safely drawing out Grieth. He doesn't hold up very well into Act IV, I admit.

Saber will likely have higher bulk and Grieth's fortress is very dangerous for Valbar due to all the magic users and witches targeting his resistance.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

For the record, I don't think giving 5 Move to Barons, and possibly Knights, would be some game-breaking heresy. But it'd still be weird to see them outpace offensive mages on neutral terrain.

Mages will still have higher range due to all the spells I mentioned, even generic magic users get access to 1-3 range spells like Thunder.

Knights and Barons have nothing like that in a game where even Alm has his bows.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Perhaps, but it would make them more effective at their archetypal role: "slow lumps, weak to Magic, who can nonetheless choke the point against physical enemies for days". 

You do realize Radiant Dawn had Armored units be very resistant to magic, correct? In other words, the series experiments with classes.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Giving Armored units too much moves radically transforms how they operate, and makes them more akin to the player-phase oriented Dread Fighter class. It makes the class better, sure, but also less interesting or unique.

Echoes: Shadows of Valentia is already a much simpler engine than a normal Fire Emblem, much like Gaiden was. Plus there is ZERO Fighter/Axe class which usually takes the pure strength/offensive class roll, so it would make perfect sense to merge Knight and Fighter together as stuff like Tokyo Mirage Sessions has already done.

And as mentioned, SOV Barons fail at everything for the player, they're barely any more durable than Gold Knights, never attacked by Bow users, are torn apart by mages and doubled by everything. They have zero advantages, to the point, most players don't even use them after a certain point.

If you really wanted to keep them 4 MOV, when again every post FE4 game but SOV/Three Houses has knights gain +1 MOV on promotion, you should come up with a skill thats worth it like traditional SNES era pavise, spells like Jugdral Barons, Bows like Jugdral Barons, or perhaps some sort of rally skill.

But 4 MOV melee only units that are also mostly up against magic enemies, can't move across most terrain and are already competing with 7 MOV melee units that halve all magic damage that hits their already high resistance is too absurd to keep.

[ussgordoncaptain]

As the person who finished the Fire emblem echoes LTC with a turncount of 154 I'll disagree here

 

In that run Valbar outperformed Catria, and in general armorknights have quite a few good traits that make them useful. In the most recent draft run I did with The chungler and @Carmine Sword the winner (chungler) drafted lukas as his 4th round pick in 3rd position (10th overall pick), second place drafted Forsyth as their 7th pick (20th overall) and valbar as their 8th (22nd overall) 

Valbar is a shovebot, and he's the best shovebot in the game, he also has great bulk which is very important for tanking on merc boat, a map that most units struggle with greatly. His low speed isn't very bad given that his 2 main roles (shove/tanking) don't require speed, but he also can double mire arcanists in arc boat for some nice chip damage. 

Forsyth is the fastest Armorknight and he can do things that other units can't due to his amazing stats. Armorknight bases are absurd in all areas except speed, and forsyth can lose only 2 turns to clive in efficient play. That's pretty good for a so called "trash" unit. He actually has decent RES and enough speed that he can poke witches extremely well. 

Lukas is OK but not great in regular play, his main strength is that his availability is so high he can promote to Knight without grinding. His main drawback is his speed. While forsyth is rocking enough speed to double cavs with boosters, lukas just won't. Lukas in draft however is a top tier pick and is a top 10 overall pick, (easily could be as high as 7th) his availability is amazing, and since you don't have exp competition he can promote before you fight the southern outpost. Where his combat is insane compared to your Merc. (then your merc goes BRRR so lukas takes a backseat)

 

Armorknights can be very useful in their roles, and while none of them are A tier all of them are C tier, they sort of fit in as nice role-players in a game where being a Jobber isn't that bad since every map is rout.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

In most casual runs, Barons still feel very extremely weak by the point they're competing with 7 MOV Dread Fighters and its easy to see they're never targeted by the rare enemy bow users.

They're not "competing with Dread Fighters" for the role of "enemy-phase physical sponge", by and parge. Dread Fighters offers a different role, one of resisting Magic and doubling.

Also there are basically no Dread Fighters on Alm's route outside of the Villagers, so they're not really competing in that sense, either.

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

There really aren't many choke points in the game and most of the time, Silque won't be able to transport Lukas many places, especially when there's so much competition from units that can reach the enemy after being teleported.

I found there to be quite a few chokepoints in Echoes' map design, in maps like Desaix's fortress, vs. Jerome and Zeke, and the Duma Gate.

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Also keep in mind, the enemy quickly becomes made up mostly of magic users, especially witches.

Witch AI is totally unpredictable. Even if they could one-round your Baron by swarming him, they probably won't. 

Also "mostly magic users" is an exaggeration, especially when you consider that the vast majority (all?) of Cantors are summoning physical enemies.

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

That was a mistake, I meant to write 5 MOV, if even a sniper is given the speed ring, they'll have 6 MOV and 1-4 range. In other words, 5 MOV is still terrible for Barons.

Mages and Clerics prefer the mage ring.

Because the strength of the Baron is its stats, not its movement or attack range. A Sniper with Baron stats would be completely busted, but outside of Pitchfork abuse, they don't exist.

Side-note: I agree the Mage Ring is better overall, but the Speed Ring can be situationally preferable. Say there's a Gargoyle or Mogall close by that I'm not one-shotting. In that case, being able to double it is better than being able to hit from further away.

Also the Speed Ring is a great "starting item" on Celica in particular going into dungeons. Because she gets 5 Mov, even if she switches it out afterwards via the Convoy.

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

How balance worked in the original is entirely relevant to what the remake changed. Again as someone who is brainstorming balancing the DS remake of the third game, checking how the characters were good in the older version is important to see why what was changed that made them not so good in the remake.

I disagree. When we're considering the balance of SoV, we need only consider the mechanical elements of SoV itself. The fact that the developers buffed some classes from Gaiden, and not others, is not directly material to the power and balance relationship among those classes in SoV. They introduced a whole host of other mechanics (supports, combat arts, the Turnwheel, forging) that leaves any attempt to graft Gaiden balance onto SoV fraught with peril. 

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Saber will likely have higher bulk and Grieth's fortress is very dangerous for Valbar due to all the magic users and witches targeting his resistance.

No, Myrmidon Saber will not be physically bulkier than Knight Valbar. And either one will be doubled by Grieth.

Again, Witch AI is unpredictable, and the one Dark Mage who threatens him on either hallway can be taken out by your Archer and/or Pegasi.

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Mages will still have higher range due to all the spells I mentioned, even generic magic users get access to 1-3 range spells like Thunder.

Knights and Barons have nothing like that in a game where even Alm has his bows.

Again, I proposed giving Barons Bow access! That's a change I would be totally fine with!

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You do realize Radiant Dawn had Armored units be very resistant to magic, correct? In other words, the series experiments with classes.

Yes, and it made them fast. It also punished their movement further with heightened ledge-climbing costs. TBH I kinda hate how RD wound up as "the land of fast armors", but that's a thread for a different day.

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

And as mentioned, SOV Barons fail at everything for the player, they're barely any more durable than Gold Knights, never attacked by Bow users, are torn apart by mages and doubled by everything. They have zero advantages, to the point, most players don't even use them after a certain point.

In my experience, they're not doubled by enemy Mire mages at least, which are the most threatening common magical enemy.

Anyway, they have a bulk advantage over their counterparts. You won't have any Gold Knights by late Act III, early Act IV on Alm's side, but you might have Baron Lukas. Even looking just at Knight, Lukas from I-Endgame onward has better physical bulk than anyome on Alm's side, until Zeke at the earliest.

7 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

If you really wanted to keep them 4 MOV, when again every post FE4 game but SOV/Three Houses has knights gain +1 MOV on promotion, you should come up with a skill thats worth it like traditional SNES era pavise, spells like Jugdral Barons, Bows like Jugdral Barons, or perhaps some sort of rally skill.

FE4-style Pavise is lame and totally chance-based. Barons would still be "bad", because it wouldn't activate when the player needs it to.

Again, I think Bows, or something that even further entrenches their physical bulk (giving them a continuing niche over Gold Knights, and especially Dread Fighters) would be positive changes to make.

4 hours ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

As the person who finished the Fire emblem echoes LTC with a turncount of 154 I'll disagree here

Thank you for your insight! I'm not much of an LTCer, so it's neat to see that units who are often negatively-assessed can still have key uses in such a context.

[Emperor Hardin]

11 hours ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

As the person who finished the Fire emblem echoes LTC with a turncount of 154 I'll disagree here

On which point, on nearly every tier list, I've seen Forsyth is one of the absolute bottom units and Valbar isn't great, though he's higher than Forsyth due to availability.

11 hours ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

In that run Valbar outperformed Catria, and in general armorknights have quite a few good traits that make them useful. In the most recent draft run I did with The chungler and @Carmine Sword the winner (chungler) drafted lukas as his 4th round pick in 3rd position (10th overall pick), second place drafted Forsyth as their 7th pick (20th overall) and valbar as their 8th (22nd overall) 

I'll take a look at your run.

Wouldn't you say that was more due to the characters than the class, though? 

11 hours ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

Valbar is a shovebot, and he's the best shovebot in the game, he also has great bulk which is very important for tanking on merc boat, a map that most units struggle with greatly. His low speed isn't very bad given that his 2 main roles (shove/tanking) don't require speed, but he also can double mire arcanists in arc boat for some nice chip damage. 

One idea I had for an SOV patch was giving Armored units innate access to shove, eventually getting access to smite as a Baron. What do you think of that idea?

Valbar is good in the beginning section with Celica, I feel, as his 4 MOV isn't so outclassed than and the player still hasn't gotten many units on Celica's side. Later on when more units are promoted and Valbar has to deal with desert and swamp tiles, he starts falling off.

11 hours ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

Forsyth is the fastest Armorknight and he can do things that other units can't due to his amazing stats. Armorknight bases are absurd in all areas except speed, and forsyth can lose only 2 turns to clive in efficient play. That's pretty good for a so called "trash" unit. He actually has decent RES and enough speed that he can poke witches extremely well. 

Yes Knight/Baron bases are good in both games, but I feel they're boths in Echoes: SOV are too bad with both -5 Luck and -10 speed. Minus -5 Speed growth would do it, I feel.

11 hours ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

Armorknights can be very useful in their roles, and while none of them are A tier all of them are C tier, they sort of fit in as nice role-players in a game where being a Jobber isn't that bad since every map is rout.

Yes that fits in FE, even in games like FE4, units like Arden and Hannibal have their uses and stuff they can contribute. When a unit is automatically deployed in Fire Emblem, there's almost no point where they're actively detrimental to use.

That said, the class line still could use a buff, I feel.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

They're not "competing with Dread Fighters" for the role of "enemy-phase physical sponge", by and parge. Dread Fighters offers a different role, one of resisting Magic and doubling.

Saber has one of the highest defense growths in the gaem and his high Movement as Myrmidon/DreadFighter will mean he can get units who need protection on time.

Infact one of the most recommended things to use a villager fork is on any Baron to make them a dread fighter.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

found there to be quite a few chokepoints in Echoes' map design, in maps like Desaix's fortress, vs. Jerome and Zeke, and the Duma Gate.

The Duma gate sure, but Desaix's fortress is a map I feel where armored units suffer from the nerf to warp. In Jerome's chapter, you have to rush and focus on taking out Jerome's unit quickly to save Zeke. Even the Duma gate has plenty of arcanists and witches to attack them.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Witch AI is totally unpredictable. Even if they could one-round your Baron by swarming him, they probably won't. 

Alot of the time, Witches do go for the lowest resistance unit in my experience, whilst there are occasional exceptions, that is generally what they do as far as I can see.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Again, I proposed giving Barons Bow access! That's a change I would be totally fine with!

That is something I'd like to do, but I'm not sure is possible with the current hacking tools. Handling the bow battle animation with the Baron's shield might get annoying, though I suppose Emperor Shield Archers/Sniper battle animations could be used for reference.

Another idea, I toyed with was a few spells like Jugdral Barons such as thunder or physic, I briefly considered rewarp but figured that might be too powerful to give to a generic class.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

In my experience, they're not doubled by enemy Mire mages at least, which are the most threatening common magical enemy.

Early on that is true, assuming you mean Arcanists, right? I wouldn't say they're the most threatening magical enemy, which would be witches, but they're certainly the most common in the early game.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also "mostly magic users" is an exaggeration, especially when you consider that the vast majority (all?) of Cantors are summoning physical enemies.

I would disagree considering chapters like this or this that are all filled with Arcanists and/or witches. Also the later chapters, starting with Marla/Hestia, have summoners that summon witches, which are magic enemies, showing not all summon physical enemies.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yes, and it made them fast. It also punished their movement further with heightened ledge-climbing costs. TBH I kinda hate how RD wound up as "the land of fast armors", but that's a thread for a different day.

And those same terrain restrictions for armored classes are in nearly every FE, including Echoes: SOV and the original Gaiden, the only exception is Heroes where Armored Knights instead have terrain advantages.

I feel high resistance is a decent tradeoff for bad trade speed.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anyway, they have a bulk advantage over their counterparts. You won't have any Gold Knights by late Act III, early Act IV on Alm's side, but you might have Baron Lukas. Even looking just at Knight, Lukas from I-Endgame onward has better physical bulk than anyome on Alm's side, until Zeke at the earliest.

Matilda will likely be a gold Knight, especially as you recruit already her as a Paladin with very good stats and again she'll get extremely tanky very quickly, Lukas falls off around act 4.

Keep in mind, Alm is a higher priority alot of the time due to his convoy and you can only get a maximum of two warp users on Alm's side, with nothing for Celica's side.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

FE4-style Pavise is lame and totally chance-based. Barons would still be "bad", because it wouldn't activate when the player needs it to.

I'm not huge on luck based skills either, but I thought of it because Spartan had what was basically pavise.

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Again, I think Bows, or something that even further entrenches their physical bulk (giving them a continuing niche over Gold Knights, and especially Dread Fighters) would be positive changes to make.

I'd like to do that, but it might be hard with current hacking tools. Any ideas on what a Baron's bow range should be, obviously it shouldn't be on the level of a Bow Knight, but maybe one more than Alm might work? 

Any other thoughts on Baron improvement?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Yes Knight/Baron bases are good in both games, but I feel they're boths in Echoes: SOV are too bad with both -5 Luck and -10 speed. Minus -5 Speed growth would do it, I feel.

Changing "-10 Speed" to "-5 Speed" would make an astoundingly marginal difference. On average, it'll mean 1 more Speed level-up over 20 levels. Which your Soldier/Knight types might not even achieve in a single playthrough. 

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Infact one of the most recommended things to use a villager fork is on any Baron to make them a dread fighter.

Yes, partly because of the Baron's excellent class bases (an aspect of the class). Even if you turn your Baron down the Mercenary path right away, they're benefiting from traits of the Baron class.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Saber has one of the highest defense growths in the gaem and his high Movement as Myrmidon/DreadFighter will mean he can get units who need protection on time.

On Hard Mode, Grieth has 17 Attack and 20 Speed. 18 Skill gives him a good chance to crit, too.

So, Valbar starts 30/12 in HP and Defense. If you get 5 levels into him by Grieth's Citadel (IMO reasonable, especially if you face Deen in the desert, where he's perhaps your best unit), he'll average 33/14.

Saber starts with 22/4 in HP and Defense. 40% Def growth is nice, but even with it, he's likely to bump up to Myrmidon class bases, of 30/7. Given 5 more levels, he can expect to reach 33/9.

So, even a base Valbar can survive a round with Grieth, unless he crits twice. With any gains to HP or Defense, he survives a double-Crit round with Grieth. At level 6, Valbar will take slightly more than half his HP from a Grieth who crits twice.

As for Saber, he's demolished by Grieth at base. If he makes it to Myrmidon, he outlasts Grieth, but not with a Crit. By level 6, he'll just barely survive a Grieth who crits once, but not twice.

So, a trained Saber is good at surviving Grieth. But not as good as a trained Valbar - or even an untrained one! Saber does have better movement, admittedly, but not by a huge Margin in Myrmidon.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The Duma gate sure, but Desaix's fortress is a map I feel where armored units suffer from the nerf to warp. In Jerome's chapter, you have to rush and focus on taking out Jerome's unit quickly to save Zeke. Even the Duma gate has plenty of arcanists and witches to attack them.

In my experience, Zeke isn't in any appreciable danger in his map. Mathilda can be, but rushing in before Desaix is taken out is a recipe for trouble. As for the Duma Gate, its awkward walls means you can position Armors so they're in-range of Gargoyles and Dread Fighters, but not enemy Arcanists.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Matilda will likely be a gold Knight, especially as you recruit already her as a Paladin with very good stats and again she'll get extremely tanky very quickly, Lukas falls off around act 4.

Mathilda joins as a level 1 Paladin after Desaix's fortress. Without grinding, no way is she hitting level 10 before Act IV starts. Maybe by the Fear Mountain shrine. She's a pretty good unit, but she can't count on a quick promotion boost.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Keep in mind, Alm is a higher priority alot of the time due to his convoy and you can only get a maximum of two warp users on Alm's side, with nothing for Celica's side.

I'd say getting levels into Alm definitely isn't a priority before his promotion. Hero class bases are quite strong, so stat gains below those are essentially "lost" once he promotes. Getting him more training with the Royal Sword or Killer Bow can be nice, however.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Early on that is true, assuming you mean Arcanists, right? I wouldn't say they're the most threatening magical enemy, which would be witches, but they're certainly the most common in the early game.

Yeah, for some reason I had the name "Diviners" stuck in my head. They do more damage than Witches, but also have lower Speed, and are more predictable.

Getting back to Witches - if their AI were actually clever, they could probably force a reset every turn. They could just swarm a low-Res unit, like Gray or Leon, and kill them. But their AI is inscrutable. Occasionally they ruin your day, but often they target your units who aren't otherwise threatened, or just move normally instead of warping.

8 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I'd like to do that, but it might be hard with current hacking tools. Any ideas on what a Baron's bow range should be, obviously it shouldn't be on the level of a Bow Knight, but maybe one more than Alm might work? 

Any other thoughts on Baron improvement?

I'd probably keep the range default. Even just up to 3-range is very strong, especially with weapons like the Killer Bow.

Another possibility: maybe a new incarnation of Wary Fighter? Have it prevent being doubled, but only when under attack (i.e. on Enemy Phase). This makes fast enemies at large, but particularly Witches and Miasma Arcanists, less of a concern.

Alternatively, "Wary Fighter" could be a combat art from one of the Shields. Kind of like "Coral Cover" from the Coral Ring. But if it's not exclusive to Armored classes (even if it's best on them), it might not be considered as helping their balance. 

[Emperor Hardin]

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yes, partly because of the Baron's excellent class bases (an aspect of the class). Even if you turn your Baron down the Mercenary path right away, they're benefiting from traits of the Baron class.

The power of shields is a big disadvantage to Barons, I feel. Anyone with a Dracoshield effectively becomes an unstoppable tank. Everyone being able to use shields doesn't work out well for the armored class line.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Mathilda joins as a level 1 Paladin after Desaix's fortress. Without grinding, no way is she hitting level 10 before Act IV starts. Maybe by the Fear Mountain shrine. She's a pretty good unit, but she can't count on a quick promotion boost.

The fear mountain shrine is where she's recommended to promote.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'd say getting levels into Alm definitely isn't a priority before his promotion. Hero class bases are quite strong, so stat gains below those are essentially "lost" once he promotes. Getting him more training with the Royal Sword or Killer Bow can be nice, however.

I'm also talking about his convoy abilities making him important to be in good positions on the map.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, for some reason I had the name "Diviners" stuck in my head. They do more damage than Witches, but also have lower Speed, and are more predictable.

Getting back to Witches - if their AI were actually clever, they could probably force a reset every turn. They could just swarm a low-Res unit, like Gray or Leon, and kill them. But their AI is inscrutable. Occasionally they ruin your day, but often they target your units who aren't otherwise threatened, or just move normally instead of warping.

Witches don't teleport all the time so as not to make things unwinnable, but when they do, its typically to a low resistance unit. The AI in the older games makes dealing the most damage its highest priority.

Arcanists have some decent speed on Hard from my recollection.

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'd probably keep the range default. Even just up to 3-range is very strong, especially with weapons like the Killer Bow.

You don't like the idea of barons having spells, right?

12 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Another possibility: maybe a new incarnation of Wary Fighter? Have it prevent being doubled, but only when under attack (i.e. on Enemy Phase). This makes fast enemies at large, but particularly Witches and Miasma Arcanists, less of a concern.

Alternatively, "Wary Fighter" could be a combat art from one of the Shields. Kind of like "Coral Cover" from the Coral Ring. But if it's not exclusive to Armored classes (even if it's best on them), it might not be considered as helping their balance. 

It'd be best to give it to armored classes themselves at that point, probably starting with Knight rather than with Baron.

That said, it might be annoying for enemy armored units like DracoShield Desaix to have.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

32 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The power of shields is a big disadvantage to Barons, I feel. Anyone with a Dracoshield effectively becomes an unstoppable tank. Everyone being able to use shields doesn't work out well for the armored class line.

That's a fair point - shields give the bulk of being a Baron, with none of the movement issues. The Dracoshield might not be the best example, though - the player can only get their hands on one through cheesytedious strategies. I don't think the casual player is expected to get either Desaix's or Jedah's.

Armors do, at least, carry the advantage of having great Defense without needing a shield. So they can carry a Lance, a Speed Ring, a recovery item, etc. instead.

37 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

The fear mountain shrine is where she's recommended to promote.

Okay, seems reasonable. My point was moreso that Lukas is one of the few units you can realistically get to tier 3 in Alm's Act III (Clive and the villagers are possible, but demand more attention).

39 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

I'm also talking about his convoy abilities making him important to be in good positions on the map.

To be sure, I'm not saying keep Alm underleveled to the point of liability. He's generally not getting doubled, and his movement and bulk are good enough that I rarely have issues getting him into a good spot for the Convoy support.

He is a good Boots candidate, admittedly. 

43 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Witches don't teleport all the time so as not to make things unwinnable, but when they do, its typically to a low resistance unit. The AI in the older games makes dealing the most damage its highest priority.

Arcanists have some decent speed on Hard from my recollection.

I agree that Witches like to pester low-Res units, but that doesn't always mean your Armors! Sure, Valbar's 0 Res is problematic, but on Alm's side, the lowest-Res unit is Clive at 1. Lukas has 2, and Forsyth has a respectable 5. So Clive can actually function as a "lure", or "decoy", to keep the Witches away from your Armor Knight.

I'll keep my eyes out for Arcanists. I don't remember "Mire Arcanist doubling" ever being a realistic threat, but it's certainly possible. 

48 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

You don't like the idea of barons having spells, right?

I'm not strictly against it, but it feels as though it'd come out of left field. Jugdral Barons use Magic, certainly, but they're an enemy-only version of the General class. And they tend to be vaguely important nobles, rather than the natural evolution of any soldier. It'd be far weirder for Valbar to gain magical abilities all of a sudden, than it would be for him to pick up a bow, IMO.

I'm not against hybrid classes or Armored Mages in principle, to be sure! And if they could have a positive balancing effect, I'd hear such a change out. It just seems thematically strange, in light of how Valentia handles Magic.

53 minutes ago, Emperor Hardin said:

It'd be best to give it to armored classes themselves at that point, probably starting with Knight rather than with Baron.

That said, it might be annoying for enemy armored units like DracoShield Desaix to have.

Yeah, that's the tricky part. I wouldn't necessarily account for its impact on the Dracoshield Desaix battle, since actually facing and defeating him is an "above and beyond" objective. So long as he's beatable without relying on highly-unlikely RNG, I'm fine with it. Javelin Desaix in Act III is more of a concern to me, since you have to beat him. Perhaps his defensivd stats could be nerfed slightly, to counter-balance this change?

"Enemy-phase-only Wary Fighter" would inspire some odd tactics, like letting my Mage facetank a Knight so she could double him in return. I do think it'd be a big help for player Armors, especially in a game with as razor-thin doubling margins as Echoes. Taking 1 damage instead of 2 from a Gargoyle hardly matters, but 10 instead of 20 from an Arcanist... now we're talking.

[Emperor Hardin]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:27 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That's a fair point - shields give the bulk of being a Baron, with none of the movement issues. The Dracoshield might not be the best example, though - the player can only get their hands on one through cheesytedious strategies. I don't think the casual player is expected to get either Desaix's or Jedah's.

You can still several Steel, as well as a Silver shield on a casual playthrough, I feel those are pretty big defense changers.

On 4/15/2022 at 9:27 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

He is a good Boots candidate, admittedly. 

One of the perfect candidates.

On 4/15/2022 at 9:27 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm not strictly against it, but it feels as though it'd come out of left field. Jugdral Barons use Magic, certainly, but they're an enemy-only version of the General class. And they tend to be vaguely important nobles, rather than the natural evolution of any soldier. It'd be far weirder for Valbar to gain magical abilities all of a sudden, than it would be for him to pick up a bow, IMO.

I'm not against hybrid classes or Armored Mages in principle, to be sure! And if they could have a positive balancing effect, I'd hear such a change out. It just seems thematically strange, in light of how Valentia handles Magic.

Well we see similar with villager characters like Kliff or any of the falcoknights with the DLC suddenly learning spells upon promotion. And there are plenty of Jugdral Barons that are military leaders. And we see noble Barons like in Desaix and (potentially)Lukas in Valentia.

Plus like Gold Knights, Barons are supposed to be a top class, so it makes sense they'd have some sort of new ability.

I was thinking a Baron would have access to thunder and recover, or maybe certain player barons getting access to the player style rewarp, that is the ability to teleport next to a nearby ally asa opposed to wherever you want like enemy witches.

On 4/15/2022 at 9:27 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, that's the tricky part. I wouldn't necessarily account for its impact on the Dracoshield Desaix battle, since actually facing and defeating him is an "above and beyond" objective. So long as he's beatable without relying on highly-unlikely RNG, I'm fine with it. Javelin Desaix in Act III is more of a concern to me, since you have to beat him. Perhaps his defensivd stats could be nerfed slightly, to counter-balance this change?

I suppose, or the player could get access to an armored slayer like a rapier more easily?

On 4/15/2022 at 9:27 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"Enemy-phase-only Wary Fighter" would inspire some odd tactics, like letting my Mage facetank a Knight so she could double him in return. I do think it'd be a big help for player Armors, especially in a game with as razor-thin doubling margins as Echoes. Taking 1 damage instead of 2 from a Gargoyle hardly matters, but 10 instead of 20 from an Arcanist... now we're talking.

That could indeed be interesting.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 4/27/2022 at 6:37 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

Well we see similar with villager characters like Kliff or any of the falcoknights with the DLC suddenly learning spells upon promotion. And there are plenty of Jugdral Barons that are military leaders. And we see noble Barons like in Desaix and (potentially)Lukas in Valentia.

With the Villagers, I think that's part-and-parcel of the "untapped potential" implicit in the class and its members. It's about young people who haven't found their specialization yet, so the world is open to them.

As for Harriers, the overclasses are specifically about gaining new and unfamiliar powers. In this light, it might make sense for the Spartan, rather than the Baron, to be gifted with spell access.

True, some Barons are noble, but there are also more than a few who are commoners, or just generics. In Jugdral, most Barons outside the Gelbenritter had some degree of independent notoriety.

On 4/27/2022 at 6:37 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

I was thinking a Baron would have access to thunder and recover, or maybe certain player barons getting access to the player style rewarp, that is the ability to teleport next to a nearby ally asa opposed to wherever you want like enemy witches.

Well if we do give them spells, how about swapping in Physic for Recover? That way they can have a ton of options for whom to heal, in spite of their limited movement. Thunder, too, is nice for the range it offers. Again, though, I'm wary of whether these changes are appropriate for a third-tier, rather than an Overclass.

On 4/27/2022 at 6:37 PM, Emperor Hardin said:

I suppose, or the player could get access to an armored slayer like a rapier more easily?

That could be a useful resource. Maybe hide a Rapier in a bonus area of the Deliverance HQ? Would give an extra tool against Act I Desaix, too... although, in so doing, it might defeat the "point" of that battle.