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Should women be objectified less, or should men be objectified more (or both)?


Jotari
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Genuinely considered putting this in Serious Discussion, but I reckon people could have more fun with it if it's in general discussion (it's still a serious question though).

Also I'm talking about like in media and advertising and stuff, not about how we treat actual human beings we interact with on a daily basis (hopefully that's obvious).

Edited by Jotari
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I am a staunch believer in equality and for every sexy woman, I wanna see enough sexy men and strong women until it's no longer a problem (Give those men a taste of their own medicine!); just so long as they're SFW of course. But in all serious, women do need to be objectified less in that way regardless, balanced or not, because in the end, over-objectification of one sex makes everyone look bad. "Eyes up here." Know what I mean?. I've slowly come to accept some sexuality. It just needs to have a point of counter, and not be particularly disgusting.

Edited by Morgan--Grandmaster
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Everyone should be objectified less. Objectifying men more in the name of "equality" doesn't actually make things equal, it just leads to more of people seeing each other as objects. People cannot nuance.

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Ideally, men and women shouldn't be objectified at all, but I don't think something like that is going to happen anytime soon because stuff like that sells. Besides, even if we were in a world like that, we'd miss out on Resplendent Saber, and I don't know if that's a world I'd want to live in.

In all seriousness, less objectification for both would be good. What we see on TV or in ads or wherever else can spill over and merge with what we want from others or for ourselves, which can cause unhealthy or unrealistic mindsets depending on the person if it's too extreme, especially if there's consistent exposure. Reducing it wouldn't necessarily get rid of the issue, but I think it could help mitigate some of the problems that it causes.

Maybe.

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When asking this question it's good to understand why this is a problem in the first place. Women for centuries have been treated in media as pretty things to look at and nothing more, an issue that is still prevalent to this day, so when you add a sexy female character it can bring a lot of negative connotations about that character, especially if the character being sexy is where the character ends.

Men don't have this problem. At the top of my head I can't think of a single male fictional character who was sexy just for the sake of being sexy and nothing more. Now I consider myself genderless but my sex is that of a male and so I was raised with a lot of male expectations and can vouch that I really don't care if men get objectified in media. Chrom may be showing off his beefy arms and Kaze may have a boob window but that doesn't make me feel objectified or violated because men don't have the sexist assumption that all men are just sex objects and nothing more like women do.

Because of that I personally think having more strong women and more sexy men would be fine, what matters most really is if they are deep characters with backstory and motives, not just eye candy.

I also feel that sexiness, in general, has been demonized and seen as taboo for far too long. It's one of the reasons why I think it's such a big selling point. Sex is an integral part of humanity yet is seen as forbidden in our culture. It's more risky to put a sex scene (Or even just a skimpy character) in a movie then it is to show blood and violence. So in a perfect world where we aren't afraid of sex or our bodies and big corporations can't use those to cash in on the buried desires of people, I think sexualization of both men and women would be fine.

Though indigoasis made a good point on unrealistic body standards spawned by this kind of stuff so maybe I'll have to think about that last point.

Edited by GuardianSing
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Well, I think it depends on what we mean by "objectification". I don't think it's wrong for characters of any sex or gender to be portrayed in a way that's intended to be "hot", "sexy", or "attractive". But when a person, or a representation of a person, is employed only for their "sex appeal", then I'm generally not a fan of that. There's a case for doing so in commercials, since a 15-second spot hardly has a chance to set up a character beyond surface level traits. But is it worse to use a person to convey "hotness" than to convey racial identity, religious background, or sexual orientation? I don't know, necessarily.

Even if we exclude commercials, what about characters who are objectified in TV shows and video games? I tend to be inclined against such representations, but what if a character is objectified as a critique on the practice itself? Is that okay, even if some viewers/players don't understand the "critique" aspect? If a work has, say, a fully fleshed-out, believable, and relatable heroine, but then a bunch of side characters who are built off of stereotypes about women, then is it "feminist", "misogynist", or neither?

Anyway, that's enough of a "Gish Gallop" for now. Suffice to say, I have a lot of questions that cloud any clarity I could otherwise assert on this front. I do think that "equal-opportunity offender" objectification is broadly preferable to gender-weighted objectification, but if a work full of "male objectification" is targeted toward people who enjoy that sort of thing, then is it really right for me to stand in the way of what the flippity frippery I'm already asking questions again?

Blah. Look, everyone's responsible for what they watch, play, listen to, and produce, and not responsible for what others are doing. If I don't like objectification, I can't stop others from doing it, but I can curate my own experience to avoid providing material support to artistic undertakings that objectify. That's probably the most ethical platform I can stand upon.

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I just want to add-on to GuardianSing's post as it already alludes to my general opinion on the matter.

The issue isn't that objecting women in media exist but rather how it became so prevalent and/or dominate in the consumable mass media, which doesn't even include the fact that objectification of women also tend to have huge negative impact for a lot women in the real world. If there were a large array of various depictions of women, either rich or flat but hopefully overall positive that easily outweigh the objectification, the entire objectification of a woman within a single story wouldn't be that big of a deal. But that's not the situation we're in.

On 4/10/2022 at 8:42 PM, GuardianSing said:

At the top of my head I can't think of a single male fictional character who was sexy just for the sake of being sexy and nothing more.

 

Edward Cullen and Jacob Black.

Though, I'm pretty sure if you venture more into media that really aims at a female demographic, you would find more examples. Though Twilight is really the only 'recent' franchise I can think of at the top my head that had actually like entered the public zeitgeist.

On another some-what not related to the topic, but I think it is important to consider in regards to objectification, after watching "Turning Red" (the Pixar film), it dawn on me that a large portion of popular culture that I grew up in was making fun and/or insulting the things that was geared towards a female demographic and/or the girls that took part it. That attitude definitely didn't help the general deception of women.

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4 hours ago, Clear World said:

I just want to add-on to GuardianSing's post as it already alludes to my general opinion on the matter.

The issue isn't that objecting women in media exist but rather how it became so prevalent and/or dominate in the consumable mass media, which doesn't even include the fact that objectification of women also tend to have huge negative impact for a lot women in the real world. If there were a large array of various depictions of women, either rich or flat but hopefully overall positive that easily outweigh the objectification, the entire objectification of a woman within a single story wouldn't be that big of a deal. But that's not the situation we're in.

Aye, context matters a lot to this issue. Inherently, sexualizing woman in media isn't inherently wrong but because of our sexist past it became a big issue. Young women especially get these unrealistic body expectations and feel like they have to always be pretty, always wear makeup, always wear dresses, so on and so fourth. I've never watched any myself but I've heard stories on how a lot of hygiene product advertisements aimed towards women often shame them into buying the project, not to mention that most of these companies are owned by men.

4 hours ago, Clear World said:

Edward Cullen and Jacob Black.

Though, I'm pretty sure if you venture more into media that really aims at a female demographic, you would find more examples. Though Twilight is really the only 'recent' franchise I can think of at the top my head that had actually like entered the public zeitgeist.

On another some-what not related to the topic, but I think it is important to consider in regards to objectification, after watching "Turning Red" (the Pixar film), it dawn on me that a large portion of popular culture that I grew up in was making fun and/or insulting the things that was geared towards a female demographic and/or the girls that took part it. That attitude definitely didn't help the general deception of women.

Yes! This is another issue I often see. The sexist idea that things that are aimed towards women are somehow automatically inferior, which is why one of the reasons I liked Turning Red so much was that it felt like it was celebrating those things instead of painting them off as cringe. It's why pieces of media that are written by and for women usually aren't part of pop-culture

I mean it's that mentality that led to the whole "I'm not like other girls" trend where women start shaming other women for liking those things, all around this idea that women who like romance novels, chick-flicks, and boybands are "basic" and cringe, which is terrible.

It's created this problem for writers when writing female characters where they'll end up getting criticized for all the feminine traits they have while also getting criticized for all the non-feminine traits they have. Steering back to the main topic, we don't want to put women in a box and say things like "Women should always dress properly and never show skin below the neck" nor do we want to portray women as all sluts who want to sleep with men.

It goes back to my idea that characters should be built from the ground up as characters and if they're built from sexual appeal then they likely wont be very stable.

 

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