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6 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Sure, Celica felt off without Alm. But I'd argue there is no scenario in which one of Fire Emblem's worst protagonists from Fire Emblem's worst games could ever feel good as an inclusion over good characters from good games.

lol, does that logic really work when Fates and Awakening dominates Warriors? It's not like we have a quality standard here by default, especially when the main leads are the worst leading roles FE has ever had. But cramming her in a game that focused entirely around three specific games hurt her massively. Celica would be a fine inclusion if FEW was either a lord-fest or made Echoes get multiple reps.

Edited by Seazas

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3 minutes ago, Seazas said:

lol, does that logic really work when Fates and Awakening dominates Warriors? It's not like we have a quality standard here by default, especially when the main leads are the worst leading roles FE has ever had. But cramming her in a game that focused entirely around three specific games hurt her massively. Celica would be a fine inclusion if FEW was either a lord-fest or made Echoes get multiple reps.

See my edit. It's a systemic issue of FEW1 as a whole that the best game it focuses on is Awakening (which says much of how I feel about the rest of its roster).

Edited by Fabulously Olivier

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Celica would've been better if the devs tied into SOV more and properly repped the game in chars. She and Lyn feel empty and lame without any complete representation. They're an afterthought and their supports are some of the weakest imo for that very reason. 

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They were glorified clones and afterthoughts, I don't hate it but they deserved better treatment.

Edited by Seazas

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I'm way late to this topic, but I've really liked the character bios. It's a nice little preview to the characters.

And I, too, like Lyn and Celica in FEW1. They're two of my favorite parts of the game, in fact.

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I think Lyn actually felt like FEW's best addition, and she had some decent supports to boot. Rob-lyn is one of the best supports in the game with its 4th wall break.

 

That said, Lyn would have probably found more common ground with characters like Petra, Shamir, Claude, and Cyril than with anyone in FEW.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier

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Why does Celica require Alm to be present? As far as I recall, upwards of 90% of her screentime in Echoes itself was also without Alm. She is not an accessory to him, nor him to her.

It is the nature of crossovers that characters get separated from their original casts, including characters close to them. Does Marth feel off in Smash Bros. because Caeda isn't there with him?

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Why does Celica require Alm to be present? As far as I recall, upwards of 90% of her screentime in Echoes itself was also without Alm. She is not an accessory to him, nor him to her.

It is the nature of crossovers that characters get separated from their original casts, including characters close to them. Does Marth feel off in Smash Bros. because Caeda isn't there with him?

It works in Smash because it doesn't try to do "complete game rep" nor is it a Fire Emblem title, instead it's a simple lord-fest and I respect that. Warriors is wishy washy and that agitates me. Either do all lords or stick to the specific games you can afford to focus on. Celica would be better if she was standalone w/ no one else from Echoes if the game did a similar approach for everyone else. Instead Corrin gets all their siblings, Marth gets most of the significant members of his posse, Chrom gets his heavy hitters too. Celica not getting anyone not even the kid mages + Saber from her route or at least Alm is dumb and makes her inclusion feel empty. Why rep Echoes in a shallow fanservice title if you can't provide the bare minimum? It's lazy.

Warriors tries to do this big three game crossover and Celica + Lyn just being tacked in drags it down for me a lot. Especially when it ends up leaving Owain and Navarre as DLC characters. And it also comes at a cost of the two lord's canonical abilities not being present at all thanks to Intsys thoughtlessly pushing them in. Their current inclusions in FEW are weak. If you don't want the other associated lords then put someone from Celica and Lyn's routes, make their inclusions less barren, even if it's DLC or something.

Edited by Seazas

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Bernadetta's been forced out of her room onto the battlefield.

So she'll just create her own room on the battlefield.

Edited by Anomalocaris

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2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Three Hopes isn't about being a crossover game, so by default those crossover characters do not work and will be an afterthought.

Still hard disagree. Three Hopes doesn't need to be a crossover game for a crossover to work. Again, look at Fates and Echoes. Both of them had crossovers and I wouldn't consider them crossover games. 

 

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

"Crossovers can be a selling point" but that's not what THs is about.

You misunderstand me here. What I said is true, that crossovers can be a selling point. However, at no point did I say that this would be what Three Hopes was, will, or should be about. Having characters cross over does not make it a crossover-focused story, nor do I think or have ever thought that a crossover should be the main focus of Three Hopes. I've seen crossovers done so quietly it's just a shoutout and reference. I've seen crossover characters done so discretely you wouldn't have even noticed unless someone pointed it out. I've seen crossovers happen naturally and not impede the thing they're crossing over into at all. Your idea of this being a problem is predicated on how you perceive the crossover being and what you think a crossover should be like in this case, both of which I am disagreeing with. 

 

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Three Hopes is all about Three Houses, thus it should be about that set of characters and world.

I agree. I just don't think a character like Azura or Lucina or Rowan or Lianna would throw that out of focus. Fates is still utterly focused on Corrin and their siblings despite having three of the most popular child units in from the previous game in that one. Echoes is still about Alm and Celica despite having Cipher characters. If the crossover character is not a main character, and the game itself isn't about the crossover, then said crossover character isn't going to get the spotlight, and thus it can still be about that same set of characters and world. You can get the outside perspective that isn't painted by racial prejudice or discrimination like with supports focused on Duscur and Almyra, nor do you get geopolitical biases like what Edelgard and Sylvain have to deal with. You can examine those same events from different eyes and thus view the world differently. 

 

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

It's not trying to be like the OG Warriors where it's a blatant crossover story, thus anyone could work.

Nor should it. If there's a character who IntSys wants in Three Hopes that's from a different world, they should work to make it work. But just because they're native to a different world doesn't inherently mean they wouldn't work in Fodlan either. 

 

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Celica's inclusion felt empty without Alm at least especially in a fanservice game. If you're going to include a game rep, do it right or make the other games match at least.

I agree and disagree, which I stated above. Celica shouldn't have been the only Gaiden rep, yes, but even if she was in the base game, it would have been better. It's the fact that she's DLC is what makes it feel like an afterthought, not just the fact that she's the only Gaiden rep. And I also disagree on needing Alm. Had Celica been with virtually any other character from Gaiden/Echoes, it would have been received better. Yes, Alm may have been the preferred character, but Boey and/or Mae would have worked just as well. 

 

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

If you're going to include a game rep, do it right or make the other games match at least.

You won't find any disagreement from me on this though. 

 

8 minutes ago, Seazas said:

It works in Smash because it doesn't try to do "complete game rep", instead it's a simple lord-fest and I respect that. Warriors is wishy washy and that shit sucks. Either do all lords or stick to the specific games you can afford to focus on. Celica would be better if she was standalone w/ no one else from Echoes if the game did a similar approach for everyone else. Instead Corrin gets all their siblings, Marth gets most of the significant members of his posse, Chrom gets his heavy hitters too. Celica not getting anyone not even the kid mages + Saber from her route or at least Alm is dumb and makes her inclusion feel empty. Why rep Echoes in a shallow fanservice title if you can't provide the bare minimum? 

Warriors tries to do this big three game crossover and Celica + Lyn just being tacked in drags it down for me a lot. And it also comes at a cost of their canonical abilities not being present at all thanks to Intsys thoughtlessly pushing them in. Their current inclusions in FEW are weak.

I don't think many people will disagree that the treatment of other FE games is unfair. That's blatantly obvious IMO. IntSys and KT wanted to market FE to the popular crowd, which meant using the popular games. And Marth because he's the OG. I get that too. It was a bad choice for most, but I get it. (Heroes did pick up the slack though.) 

But that's not what I'm asking for from Three Hopes, so it's comparing apples to oranges. I'm not asking for a character to be the representative of their game in a franchise celebration game, nor am I asking for them to steal the spotlight from other characters in the game. I'm positing that there are several characters who could cross over into Three Hopes without being disruptive or taking the spotlight away, while also feeling natural to the world or at least foreign in a way that works. I'm not asking for a crossover character to be an afterthought, thrown in to "please the fans" or whatever feelings you have about Celica and Lyn's addition. I'm saying that these additions, if thought about properly, could be fun and enjoyable. (And, depending on the character, a nice small cross-promotion or shoutout.) I'm not asking you to consider FEW's inclusions strong, I'm demonstrating - or trying to demonstrate, anyways - that crossover inclusions in other FE games are stronger and provide a roadmap for any crossovers in Three Hopes. 

Maybe the difference is that you're looking at Three Hopes from the perspective of a Warriors game while I'm looking at it from the perspective of a Fire Emblem game? 

 

1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I think Lyn actually felt like FEW's best addition, and she had some decent supports to boot. Rob-lyn is one of the best supports in the game with its 4th wall break.

 

That said, Lyn would have probably found more common ground with characters like Petra, Shamir, Claude, and Cyril than with anyone in FEW.

That support had my cackling like a madman! 

And you're right about Lyn in Fodlan in terms of bonding, which makes her a character who can fit in incredibly easily IMO. They can have her be a foreigner who bonds with other foreigners if they want Lyn proper.* Or if they wanted to make her part of Fodlan, it'd be super easy to do as well. Have her come from Brigid, and we've got another Brigid character. Have her come from Almyra and we can have another Almyran character.  It's not hard or impossible.  Heck, her FE 7 backstory would make her basically a shoe-in for a little sister of Claude's, if they wanted to go that route. (Or they could have that be the disguise in-game, when they're not related at all.) 

 

@Seazas I know a few other people kind of got dragged into this, but if we want to continue the conversation, do you want to do so on the DLC page or the general Three Hopes thread? Those may be more appropriate places to continue. (Yes, I know, I'm the one who got us off-track. This is my trying to get us on the tracks again.)

 

*If they really wanted to tick off fans and do some crazy cross-promotion, have this take place after FE7, and having that Lyn was sent on a mystic mission from another tribe to this world. But on her way back, she finds Sacae almost suffering at the hands of another genocide, so her new allies in Fodlan come to Elibe to help her out, and we get to play as characters from both. And the trailer/Direct that announces this has a teaser for an FE 7 or FE 6/7 remake coming later in the year. Buying this DLC and having the base game will give bonuses in that remake. Then players would have this convoluted order to play the games in: Download/buy all three, play FE 7 first to understand Lyn's character, then head over to Three Houses to understand Fodlan. Then Three Hopes, then the Three Hopes crossover DLC, and then FE6 if it's attached. It'd be so stupid, and I'd love every minute of it.

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2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I agree and disagree, which I stated above. Celica shouldn't have been the only Gaiden rep, yes, but even if she was in the base game, it would have been better. It's the fact that she's DLC is what makes it feel like an afterthought, not just the fact that she's the only Gaiden rep. And I also disagree on needing Alm. Had Celica been with virtually any other character from Gaiden/Echoes, it would have been received better. Yes, Alm may have been the preferred character, but Boey and/or Mae would have worked just as well. 

Just adding here Celica was base game, she was post game content.

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1 hour ago, Seazas said:

It works in Smash because it doesn't try to do "complete game rep" nor is it a Fire Emblem title, instead it's a simple lord-fest and I respect that. Warriors is wishy washy and that agitates me. Either do all lords or stick to the specific games you can afford to focus on. Celica would be better if she was standalone w/ no one else from Echoes if the game did a similar approach for everyone else. Instead Corrin gets all their siblings, Marth gets most of the significant members of his posse, Chrom gets his heavy hitters too. Celica not getting anyone not even the kid mages + Saber from her route or at least Alm is dumb and makes her inclusion feel empty. Why rep Echoes in a shallow fanservice title if you can't provide the bare minimum? It's lazy.

Well, FEW (like Hyrule Warriors 1, the success of which almost surely influenced their choice here) basically did go for the bolded model. They tried to make sure Archanaea, Awakening, and Fates each had enough of their cast to feel coherent (or as coherent as crossover plot gets, at least). However, they also threw a couple extra cameos in, and I don't think that's a bad thing? I don't feel too strongly about Celica but I do have some nostalgia/fondness for Lyn (Blazing was my first FE), and certainly I was happy that she was in, and I strongly disagree with the implication that somehow it would be better that she not be in at all just because we didn't also get Eliwood/Hector/etc. If I were a Celica fan, I'd feel the same way about her inclusion.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Well, FEW (like Hyrule Warriors 1, the success of which almost surely influenced their choice here) basically did go for the bolded model. They tried to make sure Archanaea, Awakening, and Fates each had enough of their cast to feel coherent (or as coherent as crossover plot gets, at least). However, they also threw a couple extra cameos in, and I don't think that's a bad thing? I don't feel too strongly about Celica but I do have some nostalgia/fondness for Lyn (Blazing was my first FE), and certainly I was happy that she was in, and I strongly disagree with the implication that somehow it would be better that she not be in at all just because we didn't also get Eliwood/Hector/etc. If I were a Celica fan, I'd feel the same way about her inclusion.

Here's the thing, they aren't just simple well thought out cameos like Anna is. Intsys was hungry for marketing and forced Koei to shoehorn Celica and Lyn in. This led to them being all alone with cloned movesets of Marth and Navarre despite being unique lords that required their own unique flairs. In a game that lives and breathes fanservice, Celica's inclusion was not good nor satisfying in the slightest. If we wanted to avoid Alm so bad, whatever, at least include her own gang to some degree than lazing out. Especially when she doesn't matter for the story nor was she well repped in moves. She's a lazy Marth clone despite having the grounds to make one of the craziest movesets from Gaiden alone. Lyn and Celica's dynamics with the current FEW cast was by far the weakest in terms of support value. There's an exception or two but not enough for me to be happy with them as inclusions. They deserved their parties or unique movesets at least, not carryovers. 

They could've fixed this issue with DLC but failed.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

@Seazas I know a few other people kind of got dragged into this, but if we want to continue the conversation, do you want to do so on the DLC page or the general Three Hopes thread? Those may be more appropriate places to continue. (Yes, I know, I'm the one who got us off-track. This is my trying to get us on the tracks again.)

Ok.

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Don't really want to perpetuate the talk about crossovers and stuff, but my brief few cents:

- Within FEW itself, Lyn and Celica were fine to be solo reps on their own merits (Lyn moreso for the Western fanbase, Celica did feel like a promotional tie-in), and in the context of the crossover model of franchise musous of the day (3 core + occasionally other reps) was consistent with the typical practice. As much as Celica using the rapier moveset may have felt a bit forced, there's enough other uniqueness (musous and her interaction dialogues) that sell Celica on her own. Would it have been good to have Alm or a priory cast member? Possibly, but I don't think it would have sold the issue core to FEW's roster troubles.

- W3H I feel should be treated with a lens similar to that of AoC in terms of its intent. My view is that any character external to the greater world in which Fodlan exists in (noting that Shez and Arval are designed to remain consistent with this world) would actively detract from the purpose of having a Fodlan centric title, as it's been designed to be self contained. 3H didn't need crossover characters to receive its fan / critical acclaim (I'm not considering mechanics / story here, that's a can of worms); so why should its musou spinoff be required to suddenly need an outrealm visitor?

 

===

 

Now, Caspar is due today, and I don't have a good read on what his personal is. That light element spin attack seems a bit too... underwhelming if it were a personal? I'd probably anticipate some sort of hotheaded themed personal myself.

Also keen to find out if he's a Brigand, which means we need to consider his moves as similar to Hilda's shown.

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Hmm...

I have a feeling that the ground raising move could possibly be referring to the musou, but at the same time there's utility to be gained with such a move as a charge attack.

The personal proper does make for an interesting dichotomy with Hilda who would prefer to draw her foes towards her (so does a shock like effect stunlock them as they're drawn in?), whereas Caspar tries to keep them at bay and compensate with the range increase through charging.

Still kinda confused at light element effect on Caspar, but I think I'll chalk it up to his spirit driven by justice.

(For reference to Hilda, who also charges up in her moveset:)

Spoiler

 

 

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''Hates injustice: loves to fight'' 

That just sounds perfect. Am I the only one bothered by Caspar's scar? It looks really weird that the scar extends to his hair. 

Its interesting that the profile says Caspar is under the direct tutelage of his father. In the main game Caspar says they're not close and he seems to desire a good bit of distance between him and his dad. 

Edited by Etrurian emperor

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Caspar's moveset actually looks very fun, particularly with that spin-to-win. Looks like a character I could see myself playing. And honestly, in the flow of gameplay, little things like that poorly placed facial scar will be a non-issue.

 

And yep. One month (or 32 days counting today and release day) to go. I can't wait. I have vacation booked for the 27th to 1st so as soon as my copy arrives in the mail after work, I can just lose myself in it.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier

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7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

''Hates injustice: loves to fight'' 

That just sounds perfect. Am I the only one bothered by Caspar's scar? It looks really weird that the scar extends to his hair. 

Its interesting that the profile says Caspar is under the direct tutelage of his father. In the main game Caspar says they're not close and he seems to desire a good bit of distance between him and his dad. 

I assume the scar destroyed the hair follicles underneath it. It wouldn't be noticeable if his hair was any other style, but sticking it up like that makes it visible.

The scar isn't "on" his hair like a poorly placed band-aid, it's just creating a small divot in his hairline where no hair is growing.

Edited by Anomalocaris

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17 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

I assume the scar destroyed the hair follicles underneath it. It wouldn't be noticeable if his hair was any other style, but sticking it up like that makes it visible.

The scar isn't "on" his hair like a poorly placed band-aid, it's just creating a small divot in his hairline where no hair is growing.

Right. That's the implication. It's just one of those things that doesn't look good because anime hair (especially spiky anime hair) treats the whole segment as one lump rather than many individual strands.

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Ngl, I'm surprised Petra's preferred class wasn't assassin, but I suppose there's nothing stopping KT from making Thief and Assassin both preferred classes for her.

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Yea it seems like one student in each class has a “higher” tier class. Ferdinand’s Holy Knight and Felix’s swordmaster. I wonder who will get that treatment in the Deers. My bet is on Lysithea (being Gremory), Leonie (being bow knight) or Lorenz (being Dark Knight or maybe Great knight).

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9 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

Yea it seems like one student in each class has a “higher” tier class. Ferdinand’s Holy Knight and Felix’s swordmaster. I wonder who will get that treatment in the Deers. My bet is on Lysithea (being Gremory), Leonie (being bow knight) or Lorenz (being Dark Knight or maybe Great knight).

So far its always been the '''rival'' who got the higher tier class, so that would imply its going to be Lorenz. Then again Lorenz isn't quite as popular as Felix and Ferdinant, so they could just let go of the theme and give the higher tier to Lysithea. 

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