Radiant Ramblings: The Leveling Issue

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Hello, residents of the Forest!

So I recently replayed Radiant Dawn, one of my favorite titles in the series. It's always a game that spurs my thoughts along, even when it does something I'm not a fan of. In this case, the thing I'm not a fan of is something plenty of players have already noticed. To some, it's not a bug, but a feature. To others, it makes for a bizarre playing experience where unit balance is basically non-existent. I'm talking about the leveling issue.

Basically, my premise is this: levels in Radiant Dawn are pretty wack, especially on Hard (JP Maniac) Mode. Radiant Dawn brings back a three-tier system from Gaiden, and just like Gaiden, it only somewhat commits to it. First-tier units only show up as playable units in Part I, starring Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade on their mission to redeem Daein from Begnion tyranny. From Part II onward, all playable beorc units are second-tier or higher. Some first-tier enemies show up, but starting with Part III, the vast majority of beorc enemies you face will be second-tier. Even in Part IV, where you might expect generic third-tier enemies to show up, the game instead throws "SP" enemies at you - enemy-exclusive units with the names of second-tier classes, but also with higher stats and some improved skills. The number of third-tier beorc opponents, in the entire game, can literally be counted on two hands*.

But this isn't a problem, so long as the units you have are up to the challenge, right? ...Well. Through much of Part I, most of your combat units are able to keep up with the enemies. With careful EXP distribution, this is even true of some of your scrubbier growth units, like Edward or Aran. You still get trash units, like Meg and Fiona, but on the flip side, you get absurdly overpowered units. Nailah is a fairly obvious one, but Muarim, and Tauroneo also come to mind. These units are dramatically overtuned, able to one-shot most foes and doubling the rest of them. To understand why, we have to look to... the future. Tauroneo comes back in Part III, and he's unchanged. But the world has changed around him, and while he's one of your stronger units, the enemies have creeped up to his power level. Nailah remains dominant in her Part IV appearance, but she's no longer functionally immortal. As for Muarim, he goes from "big cat in a small box" to "cute kitty in a big cage". While before he doubled everyone, now he's at risk of being doubled himself, even while transformed. Regarding the other "Dawn Brigade" units, it's something of an uphill climb from III-6 onward. There isn't enough EXP to train up any more than a handful of them (particularly on Hard), while even those with dominant Part I functions (Sothe, Volug, Zihark) find themselves on much shakier ground.

There are two other major parties in the game: the Crimean Royal Knights, and the Greil Mercenaries. All beorc units in these groups start in the second-tier. Yes, even the young upstart Archer Ross somehow made it to promotion. Some units slip from group-to-group: Nephenee, Haar, and a few others originate in Part II, but join the Greil Mercenaries shortly into Part III. That said, the Greil Mercenaries are dining the most. Throughout Parts II and III, the GMs get 10 maps to do. The CRKs get 4.5 (do we count Elincia's Gambit?), while the DB gets... 3. So, the lowest-level group also has the least opportunity to gain levels. As a result, it's very plausible to get units like Titania, Shinon, and Gatrie up to third-tier naturally before Part IV dawns, whereas the CRKs and DBs are likely to only achieve a third-tier member in such short order by using a Master Crown (which, to be fair, the game is suspiciously generous with). As a further consequence, it's much harder to make anyone from the latter two groups remotely "tower-worthy". So the Greil Mercenaries totally overpower the Dawn Brigade, right?

Yes... and no. As of III-6, some of your strongest units are actually yellow units. Finally, a game figured out how to make actually competent generics! Either these Halberdiers, Snipers, Bishops, and Dragonmasters were sitting around during the Liberation of Daein, or else they've managed to train themselves as unit in the year or so since the country was wrested from Daein. This plays out in the infamous "Bridge Map" too, where the enemies Ike and co face are far more competent than almost everyone we had on our side in Part I. Yet, when the "most powerful" characters are saved from Ashera's wrath, it's not a generic level 7 Halberdier who resists being turned to stone, but level 3 Armor Knight Meg! This could be considered a narrative compromise for the sake of gameplay design, but is it necessary? Is there any plausible way to put the various armies, as well as the Daein generics and its playable units, on a more even footing?

I believe that it is. In fact, I think there are three principal ways that a re-release or remake of Radiant Dawn could institute a greater degree of parity and balance between its units and armies, without compromising the narrative. Here's a few ways I would consider doing it:

1. Auto-leveling. This is familiar to anyone who has played Three Houses, while some other games have dabbled with it. Basically, during certain gaps of time, units could increase their level. This would make narrative sense - if they're part of an army, then it's not as though they've been idle for months or even years. There are a few ways this could be done:
   1. Each unit receives a fixed number of levels. Suppose Meg gains 6 levels during the DB timeskip. Ergo, if she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 9 Sword Armor. If she instead ended as a level 16 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 2 Sword General.
   2. Each unit receives a fixed amount of BEXP. Suppose Meg gains BEXP equivalent to 6 levels, starting from level 3. If she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 9 Sword Armor. But if she instead ended as a level 16 Sword Armor, she'd come back as a level 19 Sword Armor (this is just a for-example, I don't have the BEXP formula memorized). Said gains may be undermined by Hard Mode halving the effectiveness of every point of BEXP.
   3. Each unit is automatically raised to a certain level. Meg, for instance, might be "set" to come back as a level 1 Sword General. So whether she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, or a level 16 Sword Armor, the end result is the same. There would be an exception - if she ends Part I as a level 1 Sword General or higher, she'll simply keep her level and current stats.
2. BEXP Dump. This mechanism would take advantage of the existing BEXP system. Rather than specifying levels and EXP for each unit, the player would receive a ton of bonus EXP before the start of "post-timeskip" chapters, like III-6 and III-9. This would put the use of this resource into the player's hands, letting them choose whether to raise everyone up, funnel it into just a few, or save it for Part IV. This offers more player freedom, but it could give a harder time to new players who might not understand or bother with the BEXP system. Likewise, it could be compromised by the "Hard Mode halves the effectiveness of all BEXP" effect.
3. Cutting out a Tier. This would be the most radical change, reverting the "three-tier" system to a "two-tier" one, more familiar to players of previous games, including Path of Radiance. There are a lot of questions about how this would exactly work, but in broad strokes: the Dawn Brigade would be little-changed, except that some especially strong units (i.e. Zihark, Tauroneo) might see themselves "leveled down" from the start. This would become more dramatic for the CRKs and GMs, many of whom would "devolve" to first-tier. On the flip side, most enemies in Part II and early Part III would be first-tier. Third-tier and "SP" enemies would show up as double-digit-leveled second-tier, with just a handful of units granted their "Occult" skills. I might make a whole topic on how a hypothetical two-tier Radiant Dawn would look.

So, how do these sound? Would a "leveling change" improve the experience of playing Radiant Dawn, or would it undermine some of its uniqueness? Of the ways I suggested, which one sounds the most preferable, and which seems more likely to be problematic? Thank you for reading, and I'd be delighted to hear what you have to say in the comments!

 

*Valtome, Numida, Oliver, Izuka, Lekain, Hetzel, the Black Knight, Levail, Sephiran

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yes... and no. As of III-6, some of your strongest units are actually yellow units. Finally, a game figured out how to make actually competent generics! Either these Halberdiers, Snipers, Bishops, and Dragonmasters were sitting around during the Liberation of Daein, or else they've managed to train themselves as unit in the year or so since the country was wrested from Daein. This plays out in the infamous "Bridge Map" too, where the enemies Ike and co face are far more competent than almost everyone we had on our side in Part I.

I think it's quite a shame the boss of that map is some random guy Micaiah has probably never once spoken to. It didn't have to be a playable character being the boss there (though  if it were, then Tauroneo would be perfect for being guaranteed to live and a capable boss regardless), but they could have made that bridge guy appear in at least one earlier scene to give him some onscreen importance that would justify him being in charge of such a crucial choke point. 

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yet, when the "most powerful" characters are saved from Ashera's wrath, it's not a generic level 7 Halberdier who resists being turned to stone, but level 3 Armor Knight Meg! This could be considered a narrative compromise for the sake of gameplay design, but is it necessary? Is there any plausible way to put the various armies, as well as the Daein generics and its playable units, on a more even footing?

I believe that it is. In fact, I think there are three principal ways that a re-release or remake of Radiant Dawn could institute a greater degree of parity and balance between its units and armies, without compromising the narrative. Here's a few ways I would consider doing it:

1. Auto-leveling. This is familiar to anyone who has played Three Houses, while some other games have dabbled with it. Basically, during certain gaps of time, units could increase their level. This would make narrative sense - if they're part of an army, then it's not as though they've been idle for months or even years. There are a few ways this could be done:
   1. Each unit receives a fixed number of levels. Suppose Meg gains 6 levels during the DB timeskip. Ergo, if she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 9 Sword Armor. If she instead ended as a level 16 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 2 Sword General.
   2. Each unit receives a fixed amount of BEXP. Suppose Meg gains BEXP equivalent to 6 levels, starting from level 3. If she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 9 Sword Armor. But if she instead ended as a level 16 Sword Armor, she'd come back as a level 19 Sword Armor (this is just a for-example, I don't have the BEXP formula memorized). Said gains may be undermined by Hard Mode halving the effectiveness of every point of BEXP.
   3. Each unit is automatically raised to a certain level. Meg, for instance, might be "set" to come back as a level 1 Sword General. So whether she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, or a level 16 Sword Armor, the end result is the same. There would be an exception - if she ends Part I as a level 1 Sword General or higher, she'll simply keep her level and current stats.

This would actually probably be the simplest solution. It would at least require the least redesigining of the game.

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

1. Cutting out a Tier. This would be the most radical change, reverting the "three-tier" system to a "two-tier" one, more familiar to players of previous games, including Path of Radiance. There are a lot of questions about how this would exactly work, but in broad strokes: the Dawn Brigade would be little-changed, except that some especially strong units (i.e. Zihark, Tauroneo) might see themselves "leveled down" from the start. This would become more dramatic for the CRKs and GMs, many of whom would "devolve" to first-tier. On the flip side, most enemies in Part II and early Part III would be first-tier. Third-tier and "SP" enemies would show up as double-digit-leveled second-tier, with just a handful of units granted their "Occult" skills. I might make a whole topic on how a hypothetical two-tier Radiant Dawn would look.

This is honestly the most obvious solution, even though I like the three tier system. Old Mystery got away with returning characters being the same level as the previous game without it seeming too odd or weird, I don't think it would have beyond the Pale here. One thing we would lose is Yune promoting Micaiah in Part 4 (unless they want to turn her into Roy and remove Pelleas promoting her XD ), which, eh, it's kind of a cool scene, but it wouldn't really be all that major a loss.

6 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

*Valtome, Numida, Oliver, Izuka, Lekain, Hetzel, the Black Knight, Levail, Sephiran

Ah, you're forgetting my promoted Shinon and Gatrie, enemis of 3-12!

[Vicious Sal]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think it's quite a shame the boss of that map is some random guy Micaiah has probably never once spoken to. It didn't have to be a playable character being the boss there (though  if it were, then Tauroneo would be perfect for being guaranteed to live and a capable boss regardless), but they could have made that bridge guy appear in at least one earlier scene to give him some onscreen importance that would justify him being in charge of such a crucial choke point. 

This would actually probably be the simplest solution. It would at least require the least redesigining of the game.

This is honestly the most obvious solution, even though I like the three tier system. Old Mystery got away with returning characters being the same level as the previous game without it seeming too odd or weird, I don't think it would have beyond the Pale here. One thing we would lose is Yune promoting Micaiah in Part 4 (unless they want to turn her into Roy and remove Pelleas promoting her XD ), which, eh, it's kind of a cool scene, but it wouldn't really be all that major a loss.

Ah, you're forgetting my promoted Shinon and Gatrie, enemis of 3-12!

For Goran, the 3-11 boss, might I show you this: 

He's one of the 1-7 prisoners in my RD project.

As for levels, working on EXP formulas and all kinds of other things in RD. So expect some of these issues to be addressed at some point.
(Disregard the low Goran in the 1st image. I fixed that pretty quickly afterwards)

Edited April 13, 2022 by Vicious Sal

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

(Disregard the low Goran in the 1st image. I fixed that pretty quickly afterwards)

"I turned myself tiny, Micaiah! I'm Tiny Goran!"

Sounds like a cool project.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

This would actually probably be the simplest solution. It would at least require the least redesigining of the game.

It'd be a big help to the "Laguz Emancipation Army" units, too, giving them a vague chance at Tower competence. And they could "pump the brakes" on certain Part I units, because they'll get restored to Part III competence after the fact. Like, if Tauroneo didn't double every single enemy, then he could be great for setting up kills in I-6.

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

This is honestly the most obvious solution, even though I like the three tier system. Old Mystery got away with returning characters being the same level as the previous game without it seeming too odd or weird, I don't think it would have beyond the Pale here. One thing we would lose is Yune promoting Micaiah in Part 4 (unless they want to turn her into Roy and remove Pelleas promoting her XD ), which, eh, it's kind of a cool scene, but it wouldn't really be all that major a loss.

My solution would be for Tier 2 -> Tier 3 promotions to no longer be promotions, but instead being "here, have an occult skill and portrait redesign now". Not sure if it'd be too weird having a Lord (Ike) start in his final class, but it worked for Sigurd, right?

[AnonymousSpeed]

20 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"I turned myself tiny, Micaiah! I'm Tiny Goran!"

I hate you.

Personally, I like the narrative aspect of the three-tier system. It's neat how the Greil Mercenaries are not only about as strong as they would've been at the end of FE9, but how the Dawn Brigade starts off where they did in the last game and have to grow to match their current state. They obviously don't have the experience and units like Jill and Tauroneo kind of mess that up, but I do actually like the different starting tiers for the different armies. Personally, I think they Dawn Brigade should get more maps or more bonus experience, so it's easier to train Nolan and Edward to the level of Boyd and Mia.

[Jotari]

21 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

"I turned myself tiny, Micaiah! I'm Tiny Goran!"

Sounds like a cool project.

It'd be a big help to the "Laguz Emancipation Army" units, too, giving them a vague chance at Tower competence. And they could "pump the brakes" on certain Part I units, because they'll get restored to Part III competence after the fact. Like, if Tauroneo didn't double every single enemy, then he could be great for setting up kills in I-6.

My solution would be for Tier 2 -> Tier 3 promotions to no longer be promotions, but instead being "here, have an occult skill and portrait redesign now". Not sure if it'd be too weird having a Lord (Ike) start in his final class, but it worked for Sigurd, right?

Well I don't see much issue with Ike's Hero class being Tier 1 and Vanguard being Tier 2. Well other than Hero being a classic 2nd Tier class, though Ike's 1st Tier class being called Mercenary and his promoted class being Hero would just make a crazy amount of sense given A) He literally is a mercenary B) Tellius dropped the Mercenary class so it would still be unique, while also being generic to show he's not the sole protagonist (in other words it'd be unique the way Mist's Cleric class is unique) C) Fire Emblem's classic Mercenary->Hero already reflect Ike's Hero->Vanguard weapon ranks.

So in other words, I don't see issue with Ike being a tier 1 unit like everyone else. The issue with Micaiah though is that she has two plot based promotions, whereas Ike only has 1. So she either can uniquely be a third tier unit or one of her two promotion scenes needs to be dropped.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Personally, I like the narrative aspect of the three-tier system. It's neat how the Greil Mercenaries are not only about as strong as they would've been at the end of FE9, but how the Dawn Brigade starts off where they did in the last game and have to grow to match their current state. They obviously don't have the experience and units like Jill and Tauroneo kind of mess that up, but I do actually like the different starting tiers for the different armies. Personally, I think they Dawn Brigade should get more maps or more bonus experience, so it's easier to train Nolan and Edward to the level of Boyd and Mia.

That's a solid point. Moving from a two-tier system to three-tier does exhibit some degree of "growth" for the characters involved. There is some degree of "weirdness", though - why does Ilyana lose access to Fire and Wind tomes? Why does Mist lose the horse, but keep the sword? If we want to maintain the three-tier system, I think some combination of increased BEXP for the DB, and an EXP curve that's more generous to first-tier units, could be the way to go.

14 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well I don't see much issue with Ike's Hero class being Tier 1 and Vanguard being Tier 2. Well other than Hero being a classic 2nd Tier class, though Ike's 1st Tier class being called Mercenary and his promoted class being Hero would just make a crazy amount of sense given A) He literally is a mercenary B) Tellius dropped the Mercenary class so it would still be unique, while also being generic to show he's not the sole protagonist (in other words it'd be unique the way Mist's Cleric class is unique) C) Fire Emblem's classic Mercenary->Hero already reflect Ike's Hero->Vanguard weapon ranks.

That's a fair point. As an aside, I'd love Ike's and Micaiah's personal classes to get stylized as "Radiant Hero" and "Maiden/Priestess of Dawn", respectively. If Micaiah's only getting one promotion, perhaps it could happen at the start of Part IV? Ah, but then she'd lose Physic access in the Part III maps. So maybe it'd just be her first promotion, while before the Tower, she'd have an event giving her Corona?

As for Sothe, here's a wild thought - what if we got rid of the Thief class? The handful of enemy Thieves who show up could be remade into Rogues. Then, Sothe and Heather could each go Whisper, now as their second-tier class. Sothe would probably his bases and caps reduced somewhat, if Rogue is now a tier-one class.

[haarhaarhaar]

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

BEXP Dump. This mechanism would take advantage of the existing BEXP system. Rather than specifying levels and EXP for each unit, the player would receive a ton of bonus EXP before the start of "post-timeskip" chapters, like III-6 and III-9. This would put the use of this resource into the player's hands, letting them choose whether to raise everyone up, funnel it into just a few, or save it for Part IV. This offers more player freedom, but it could give a harder time to new players who might not understand or bother with the BEXP system. Likewise, it could be compromised by the "Hard Mode halves the effectiveness of all BEXP" effect.

I like this solution the most of the ones you've offered. If the amount of battle EXP you earn for post-timeskip chapters is tied to performance pre-timeskip (or even the outcomes of battles where the army in question is green/yellow/red? That might be too complex/RNG-dependent), then you'd feel even more driven to achieve timely clears/all objectives on a map. As for the cons you've mentioned, I think you can get away without using much or any BEXP on Easy or Normal, where new players are likely to start. The Hard Mode effect is an issue I'm not sure how to deal with, but also not out of keeping with the overall difficulty spike, so at least it's consistent. 

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Auto-leveling. This is familiar to anyone who has played Three Houses, while some other games have dabbled with it. Basically, during certain gaps of time, units could increase their level. This would make narrative sense - if they're part of an army, then it's not as though they've been idle for months or even years. There are a few ways this could be done:

1. Each unit receives a fixed number of levels. Suppose Meg gains 6 levels during the DB timeskip. Ergo, if she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 9 Sword Armor. If she instead ended as a level 16 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 2 Sword General.
2. Each unit receives a fixed amount of BEXP. Suppose Meg gains BEXP equivalent to 6 levels, starting from level 3. If she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, then she would come back as a level 9 Sword Armor. But if she instead ended as a level 16 Sword Armor, she'd come back as a level 19 Sword Armor (this is just a for-example, I don't have the BEXP formula memorized). Said gains may be undermined by Hard Mode halving the effectiveness of every point of BEXP.
3. Each unit is automatically raised to a certain level. Meg, for instance, might be "set" to come back as a level 1 Sword General. So whether she ended Part I as a level 3 Sword Armor, or a level 16 Sword Armor, the end result is the same. There would be an exception - if she ends Part I as a level 1 Sword General or higher, she'll simply keep her level and current stats.

Auto-levelling makes quite a lot of sense, but the tricky thing about it is that it removes player agency from character building. 3H gives you so much room to work on characters that when they do get auto-levelled, I resent missing the opportunity to shape those levels and my build myself (not helped by the whole player insert = battle teacher thing). RD isn't nearly as variable, and doesn't have the insert, so auto-levelling is more justifiable, but in this case it won't really meet your goals of levelling things out between the armies.

Versions 1 and 2 are unlikely to make the likes of Meg and Fiona (indeed, most of the Part I first-tier characters) decent enough to pull their weight in post-timeskip chapters, although I guess they could save the pre-promotes. Version 3 might end up incentivising not deploying poor units in the early game (although Meg basically does that by herself) which is worse from the perspective of engaging the player, not to mention the annoyance of your effort in babying Edward through Part 1 being (out)matched by a game mechanism. If we were just talking about the Crimeans, then I think this solution would work (maybe even better than BEXP), but I feel like it won't get the right balance for the DBs.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Cutting out a Tier. This would be the most radical change, reverting the "three-tier" system to a "two-tier" one, more familiar to players of previous games, including Path of Radiance. There are a lot of questions about how this would exactly work, but in broad strokes: the Dawn Brigade would be little-changed, except that some especially strong units (i.e. Zihark, Tauroneo) might see themselves "leveled down" from the start. This would become more dramatic for the CRKs and GMs, many of whom would "devolve" to first-tier. On the flip side, most enemies in Part II and early Part III would be first-tier. Third-tier and "SP" enemies would show up as double-digit-leveled second-tier, with just a handful of units granted their "Occult" skills. I might make a whole topic on how a hypothetical two-tier Radiant Dawn would look.

I'm fairly attached to the three-tier system, for aesthetic reasons if nothing else. I also quite like the idea that Yune's blessings focused on the army left in Part IV are what generally allow the beorc units to achieve a new level of combat ability (of course, you can promote your favourites naturally before then/with a MC, but the story promotions/third-tier recruits don't start till the end of Part III, which in my head is the starting point for third-tier promotion). I think the big issue with getting rid of the three-tier system altogether is, as people have mentioned, the sense of growth from PoR - the cognitive dissonance it would cause in places like Part II Chapter 1 (why would war veterans be roughly the same tier/level as barely trained villagers?) detracts from the sense of proportion I think you're trying to achieve. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

41 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I'm fairly attached to the three-tier system, for aesthetic reasons if nothing else. I also quite like the idea that Yune's blessings focused on the army left in Part IV are what generally allow the beorc units to achieve a new level of combat ability (of course, you can promote your favourites naturally before then/with a MC, but the story promotions/third-tier recruits don't start till the end of Part III, which in my head is the starting point for third-tier promotion). I think the big issue with getting rid of the three-tier system altogether is, as people have mentioned, the sense of growth from PoR - the cognitive dissonance it would cause in places like Part II Chapter 1 (why would war veterans be roughly the same tier/level as barely trained villagers?) detracts from the sense of proportion I think you're trying to achieve

Yeah, the biggest strength of the three-tier system, IMO, is the narrative contiguity with Path of Radiance. It feels like the GMs have been through a war - in a way that, say, demoting Boyd to Fighter may wind up undermining. Of course, characters like Jill and Ilyana have been through a war to, but they're first-tier because the Dawn Brigade can't have nice things.

I've never thought of the third-tier promotions as being a manifestation of Yune's power. One way to express this would be to cap units at level 20 before part IV, and not let them promote until after The Big Flash. Of course, this would inhibit player freedom to indulge in early Master Crown promotions, so maybe not too desirable gameplay-wise.

47 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Auto-levelling makes quite a lot of sense, but the tricky thing about it is that it removes player agency from character building. 3H gives you so much room to work on characters that when they do get auto-levelled, I resent missing the opportunity to shape those levels and my build myself (not helped by the whole player insert = battle teacher thing). RD isn't nearly as variable, and doesn't have the insert, so auto-levelling is more justifiable, but in this case it won't really meet your goals of levelling things out between the armies.

Versions 1 and 2 are unlikely to make the likes of Meg and Fiona (indeed, most of the Part I first-tier characters) decent enough to pull their weight in post-timeskip chapters, although I guess they could save the pre-promotes. Version 3 might end up incentivising not deploying poor units in the early game (although Meg basically does that by herself) which is worse from the perspective of engaging the player, not to mention the annoyance of your effort in babying Edward through Part 1 being (out)matched by a game mechanism. If we were just talking about the Crimeans, then I think this solution would work (maybe even better than BEXP), but I feel like it won't get the right balance for the DBs.

Version 3 Auto-leveling, I feel, provides one big advantage: the game knows exactly what minimum tools the player has at their disposal, and can design difficulty around it. Make Beast laguz strong enough to seriously dent Level 1 Sword General Meg, for instance, without one-rounding her. The flip side, of course, is the big disadvantage - lost investment. Whether you poured levels and BEXP into Meg, or left her sitting on the bench, the outcome will be almost exactly the same. From the second playthrough onward, you'll know the "optimal" approach to be investing in just a few units in Part I, while letting the others just rise to auto-level bases.

Yeah I agree that Versions 1 and 2 probably wouldn't "save" the likes of Meg or Fiona, but that depends on how it's weighted. If a base Fiona were to get, say, a clean 10 levels during the skip, then she may be within BEXP of tier 2. Stronger units would generally gain fewer levels - we could take 3 levels away from Tauroneo, then give them back over the timeskip. That way he's less dominant in I-6, but still strong in Part III. Zihark and Sothe would probably only get a couple levels apiece.

The group most helped by auto-leveling might just be the LEA. They're gone so long, they deserve a real payoff. Pump 12 levels into Vika, and now she's not only doubling again, but she's within clawing distance of a Satori Sign. Tormod and Muarim could probably get by with, say, 9 and 6 levels apiece. They won't be as tough as units you've been training all along, but they'll be salvageable, even on Hard Mode.

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I like this solution the most of the ones you've offered. If the amount of battle EXP you earn for post-timeskip chapters is tied to performance pre-timeskip (or even the outcomes of battles where the army in question is green/yellow/red? That might be too complex/RNG-dependent), then you'd feel even more driven to achieve timely clears/all objectives on a map. As for the cons you've mentioned, I think you can get away without using much or any BEXP on Easy or Normal, where new players are likely to start. The Hard Mode effect is an issue I'm not sure how to deal with, but also not out of keeping with the overall difficulty spike, so at least it's consistent. 

I personally wouldn't tie "timeskip BEXP" to performance. A major purpose of it would be to make portions like "DB Part III" less hellish, so giving fewer points to players who struggled through Part I just seems kinda mean-spirited. While I do like the player freedom it offers, I worry that allowing the player to concentrate the equivalent of "five levels on everyone" into one or two units could enhance the "juggernauting" issue that RD tends to face. Why make Eddie and Leo less trash, when I can build a super-Jill?

[lenticular]

One possibility would be to reduce things down to two-and-a-half tiers. Keep tier one, but only have it go from level 1-10 and then promote at level 10. You retain most of the benefits of the three-tier system, allow for the storyline benefits of the first promotion, but also reduce the Dawn Brigade's level deficit by 10.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 minutes ago, lenticular said:

One possibility would be to reduce things down to two-and-a-half tiers. Keep tier one, but only have it go from level 1-10 and then promote at level 10. You retain most of the benefits of the three-tier system, allow for the storyline benefits of the first promotion, but also reduce the Dawn Brigade's level deficit by 10.

That could be an interesting approach. You get remarkably few first-tier double-digit-level units (I think it's just Jill and Ilyana), so they could just bump up to second-tier instead. For everyone else, it'd basically be like a free Master Seal at level 10. But this could actually create issues for long-term competitiveness and viability. Considering a 10/7 Edward, he's dramatically worse than --/7 Zihark (-3 Strength, -4 Defense) and --/7 Mia (-7 Skill, -8 Speed). It also creates an issue for Micaiah - if she's capped at level 10, then she's even less competent in late Part I, especially I-9. And then there's the question of how to handle the many "level 11+" first-tier units - promoted, they're too strong, but capped at level 10, they're too weak.

Thinking on it, I wonder if a better design would've been for levels not to reset in Radiant Dawn? Let beorc units level up to 40, just like laguz. The Master Seal could be used at level 10 or higher, while auto-promotion to second-tier happens at level 21. Bring back the Japanese-RD construct of requiring a Master Crown for third-tier (and giving the player more of them), and allow their use starting at level 30 (like the Satori Sign). Some third-tier units, like Elincia or Sanaki, would join in the 20s. They'd probably need to tinker with the growths, but this way, we could get a consistent EXP formula between beorc and laguz.

[Jotari]

Another possibility would be to just slow the exp gain for the Greil Mercs in part 3. Have you fight lower level enemies (but with higher stats). So the Greil mercs, while beginning at higher levels than the Dawn Brigade, spend a lot more time in their base tiers before enemy levels increase in level 4 giving them easier opportunity to promote. And vice versa higher level enemies for the Dawn Brigade to fight but with relatively lower stats (they already have this to some small extent by having the Dawn Brigade fight laguz, which grant more exp).

[lenticular]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That could be an interesting approach. You get remarkably few first-tier double-digit-level units (I think it's just Jill and Ilyana), so they could just bump up to second-tier instead. For everyone else, it'd basically be like a free Master Seal at level 10. But this could actually create issues for long-term competitiveness and viability. Considering a 10/7 Edward, he's dramatically worse than --/7 Zihark (-3 Strength, -4 Defense) and --/7 Mia (-7 Skill, -8 Speed). It also creates an issue for Micaiah - if she's capped at level 10, then she's even less competent in late Part I, especially I-9. And then there's the question of how to handle the many "level 11+" first-tier units - promoted, they're too strong, but capped at level 10, they're too weak.

I was assuming that there would be a rebalance going on at the same time. So, using your example, maybe Edward would end up with increased bases or increased growths, or maybe Zihark and Mia (and pretty much all other units, both allied and enemy) would be slightly nerfed. The overall idea would be to make it so the Dawn Brigade units ended up at a similar strength to other units (as they do now) but that they would need to level up fewer times to get there. Of course, this would be a pretty major undertaking that would pretty much require rebalancing the whole game, but I'm not sure if it's possible to properly fix the problems here with anything short of that.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Another possibility would be to just slow the exp gain for the Greil Mercs in part 3. Have you fight lower level enemies (but with higher stats). So the Greil mercs, while beginning at higher levels than the Dawn Brigade, spend a lot more time in their base tiers before enemy levels increase in level 4 giving them easier opportunity to promote. And vice versa higher level enemies for the Dawn Brigade to fight but with relatively lower stats (they already have this to some small extent by having the Dawn Brigade fight laguz, which grant more exp).

Aren't enemies' stats based on class bases and growths, though? I don't know that they even could increase the enemy stats on a route-variant basis. And it'd be weird for, say, a level 1 Halberdier on the GM chapters to be universally stronger than a level 1 Halberdier the DB units face.

Why not just make the EXP formula more favorable to Tier 1 units? That's a change that'll exclusively benefit the DB units, excluding the already-strong units among them, without impacting the enemy side. More of the DB units could make it to Tier 2 naturally, even on Hard Mode. And please, don't spare Laura. 12 EXP for a Mend Staff use should be a war crime.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

I was assuming that there would be a rebalance going on at the same time. So, using your example, maybe Edward would end up with increased bases or increased growths, or maybe Zihark and Mia (and pretty much all other units, both allied and enemy) would be slightly nerfed. The overall idea would be to make it so the Dawn Brigade units ended up at a similar strength to other units (as they do now) but that they would need to level up fewer times to get there. Of course, this would be a pretty major undertaking that would pretty much require rebalancing the whole game, but I'm not sure if it's possible to properly fix the problems here with anything short of that.

I wonder if we'd want to change the caps, too? If first-tier units have 10 fewer level-ups, then they won't be able to hit their caps (and thereby BEXP abuse). Likewise if most promoted units are taken down a couple rungs. And I'm still not sure how we're handling level 10+ first-tier enemies.

Ultimately, though, if we're only doing 10 levels in Tier 1, and can comfortably clear the Tower by halfway through Tier 3, why not just cut off the endpieces and revert to two 20-level tiers? Or keep it a three-tier system, but across 40 (non-resetting) levels. That way, the player can evaluate unit strength at a glance (a "level 24 Halberdier Jarod" is more obviously a threat than a "level 4 Halberdier Jarod").

[Jotari]

Coming to think of it, just giving one of the Dawn Brigade units paragon or tossing it in a chest somewhere in the early game would have been great for controlling exp flow. Instead you get it almost as soon as Part 1 finishes so Ike and co reap the benefits (assuming you steal it from Astrid and Geoffrey which, despite my stance that Astrid is not shit, is no doubt the wisest move to make).

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Coming to think of it, just giving one of the Dawn Brigade units paragon or tossing it in a chest somewhere in the early game would have been great for controlling exp flow. Instead you get it almost as soon as Part 1 finishes so Ike and co reap the benefits (assuming you steal it from Astrid and Geoffrey which, despite my stance that Astrid is not shit, is no doubt the wisest move to make).

No it wouldn't. Paragon takes 15 skill points, and the maximum any first-tier DB unit has is 10 free points. Even the skill system is hostile to first-tier units. The sole exception is Micaiah, who starts with 15 free points. So you could give it to her, Sothe, Zihark, Volug, Tauroneo... you know, units who struggle so much.

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

No it wouldn't. Paragon takes 15 skill points, and the maximum any first-tier DB unit has is 10 free points. Even the skill system is hostile to first-tier units. The sole exception is Micaiah, who starts with 15 free points. So you could give it to her, Sothe, Zihark, Volug, Tauroneo... you know, units who struggle so much.

Well the solution there is to increase capacity across the board. Even at higher tiers a character basically needs a good innate skill to pull of any kind of skill combos (unless their name's Tibarn). And you can't even mess around with innate skills because taking it off and then trying to put it back on again costs capacity points it didn't before.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well the solution there is to increase capacity across the board. Even at higher tiers a character basically needs a good innate skill to pull of any kind of skill combos (unless their name's Tibarn). And you can't even mess around with innate skills because taking it off and then trying to put it back on again costs capacity points it didn't before.

Maybe 20 for first-tier, 40 for second-tier, and 60 for third-tier? Then chop 10 capacity points off of Occult skills across the board. This way stuff like "Paragon Myrmidon Edward" and "Fortune-Resolve Halberdier Aran" can happen.

Alternatively, if we had a "levels don't reset" system, it could be based off of level, and shared with laguz counterparts. Say, 25 points up to level 10 (inclusive), 40 up to level 20, 55 up to level 30, and 70 points at level 31 and higher.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Maybe 20 for first-tier, 40 for second-tier, and 60 for third-tier? Then chop 10 capacity points off of Occult skills across the board. This way stuff like "Paragon Myrmidon Edward" and "Fortune-Resolve Halberdier Aran" can happen.

Alternatively, if we had a "levels don't reset" system, it could be based off of level, and shared with laguz counterparts. Say, 25 points up to level 10 (inclusive), 40 up to level 20, 55 up to level 30, and 70 points at level 31 and higher.

Honestly I think you could get away with Occult Scrolls (along with Shove and Canto) not having capacity points at all. Seems redundant to force equip something and have it cost capacity points when you could just lower the number of capacity available (bit like paying taxes when you work directly for the government). Of course a much more interesting option would be to make Occult Scrolls (and canto and shove) not forced equipped.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Honestly I think you could get away with Occult Scrolls (along with Shove and Canto) not having capacity points at all. Seems redundant to force equip something and have it cost capacity points when you could just lower the number of capacity available (bit like paying taxes when you work directly for the government). Of course a much more interesting option would be to make Occult Scrolls (and canto and shove) not forced equipped.

I'm thinking harder on it, and asking myself... "do we even need capacity points? Like, at all?" You're already limited to 6 skills total, at least 2 of which will be locked based on a unit's class. And there are a ton of restrictions regarding which classes can and can't be granted certain skills. Maybe just impose limits of 3 (first-tier), 4 (second-tier), and 6 (third-tier) skills, respectively? In theory, this would undermine the carefully-crafted balance, but, like, is Fortune more valuable than Paragon? Is Quicklaw better than Wildheart? Lots of the capacity assignments just come across as arbitrary.

Or, what if the limit is placed on "selectable skills", rather than "total skills"? First-tier gets 1, second-tier 2, and third-tier 3. This way, someone like Fiona can benefit from her innate Savior and Imbue, plus Canto, while potentially adding a fourth-skill even in the first tier. Of course, if you take off Savior and Imbue, then she can still only add one skill beyond Canto. This could create issues, though, as units with lots of skills from the start (the Laguz Royals) could exceed 6 skills.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm thinking harder on it, and asking myself... "do we even need capacity points? Like, at all?" You're already limited to 6 skills total, at least 2 of which will be locked based on a unit's class. And there are a ton of restrictions regarding which classes can and can't be granted certain skills. Maybe just impose limits of 3 (first-tier), 4 (second-tier), and 6 (third-tier) skills, respectively? In theory, this would undermine the carefully-crafted balance, but, like, is Fortune more valuable than Paragon? Is Quicklaw better than Wildheart? Lots of the capacity assignments just come across as arbitrary.

Or, what if the limit is placed on "selectable skills", rather than "total skills"? First-tier gets 1, second-tier 2, and third-tier 3. This way, someone like Fiona can benefit from her innate Savior and Imbue, plus Canto, while potentially adding a fourth-skill even in the first tier. Of course, if you take off Savior and Imbue, then she can still only add one skill beyond Canto. This could create issues, though, as units with lots of skills from the start (the Laguz Royals) could exceed 6 skills.

Well that's presumably the logic they worked under when they made Awakening which just flat gives you five equippable skills, and the series hasn't looked back since. Personally, while I don't think either Tellius did a great job with capacity, I do like the idea of it as a way of weighing skills. It should be you can equip two or three powerful skills, or five or six week skills, in theory. But in practice they made it so you can only equip two skills along with whatever the character comes with.