If someone had successfully assassinated Manfroy...

[Cossack>Cavalier]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I don't think there's anything to suggest Naga is leagues above Loptous. The only real suggestion is that the Naga tome is specifically tailored to beat the Loptyr tome, but even then Naga gave the humans a bunch of holy weapons from other dragons to back Heim up. In truth we have no idea how Loptyr's body ranked against Naga's.

Lewyn/Forseti also states to Seliph that Naga is/was more powerful than Loptyr.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

It is tailored though. Despite how the effect has been translated into other entires in the series, Naga's tome doesn't deal effective damage to Loptous, it just negates his damage reduction skill (and provides insane stat buffs). 

Under FE4 rules, "negating the damage reduction effect" can be construed as equivalent to "dealing effective damage". The Book of Loptyr halves the enemy's Attack stat, while effective damage doubles the user's Attack stat (same as a crit). So bypassing the damage-reducing effect is essentially equivalent to doubling an Attack stat that's been cut in half.

3 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

That the other Holy Weapons aren't effective because they don't come from Divine Dragons. At least, that'd be my guess.

Honestly, that's a grade-A prank by Naga's friends. Give the Crusaders a bunch of weapons tailor-made to defeat the Dark/Earth/Shadow Dragon, Loptyr... except they don't bypass his Dragonskin effect. The absolute look of shock and despair on Baldur's face when his Tyrfing is dealing single-digit damage. Musta been priceless. 

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Honestly, that's a grade-A prank by Naga's friends. Give the Crusaders a bunch of weapons tailor-made to defeat the Dark/Earth/Shadow Dragon, Loptyr... except they don't bypass his Dragonskin effect. The absolute look of shock and despair on Baldur's face when his Tyrfing is dealing single-digit damage. Musta been priceless. 

To be fair, it wasn't just the Echo-Possessed Loptrian Emperor they were fighting. There were also thousands and thousands of soldiers. The Holy Weapons would still serve to mow down those... but yes, at the end of the day, only the Naga Tome would be able to significantly hurt the Emperor.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

4 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

To be fair, it wasn't just the Echo-Possessed Loptrian Emperor they were fighting. There were also thousands and thousands of soldiers. The Holy Weapons would still serve to mow down those... but yes, at the end of the day, only the Naga Tome would be able to significantly hurt the Emperor.

That's a solid point. Hm... this wording actually has me thinking that Jugdral would lend itself well to another FE warriors game. Give the holy-blooded heroes their big weapons, and let them go at it. Topic for another day, that is.

[hi_scroes]

19 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Under FE4 rules, "negating the damage reduction effect" can be construed as equivalent to "dealing effective damage". The Book of Loptyr halves the enemy's Attack stat, while effective damage doubles the user's Attack stat (same as a crit). So bypassing the damage-reducing effect is essentially equivalent to doubling an Attack stat that's been cut in half.

That's an interesting perspective. Makes sense because Julius has Nihil, which negates effective damage in FE4 and would therefore make it impossible to actually have Naga do traditional effective damage against Julius. And Julius has to have Nihil because it's part of what makes him impossible to deal damage to, so I can buy Kaga wanting to portray effective damage through another method.

I usually interpret the Naga tome on a narrative level as negating the "cheating" of the Loptous tome. Loptous actually sucks in relation to the other holy weapons, it only provides a measly bonus of +5 Res. Conversely, Naga gives +20 Skill, +20 Speed, +20 Defense and +20 Resistance, a net bonus of +80 that's higher than any other holy weapon and wayyy higher than Loptous. It can turn a low-level Julia into one of your best units overall, not just for the Julius fight. It's like Naga confers an "honest" power based on actual stats. Loptous, on the other hand, only confers a "cheating" power that gives just a sliver of Res alongside a manipulative effect, symbolizing how evil and unnatural the tome is.

[Red Dingo]

7 hours ago, Cossack>Cavalier said:

That's fair. If it helps, a decent explanation is that part of what it means for divinity to be divine is that it can manipulate the causality or the material world. It's not simply tossing big fireballs by the ability to alter the nature of reality. Console commands for the universe, if you will. 

Or, that the sort of truth an author of a more mythical story is trying to tell isn't a materialistic truth but rather an ethical or poetic truth. No one would bother to tell a story where Manfroy tripped and fell on the way to bringing the book to Julius, breaking his own neck in the process. Or one where Arvis was shooting blanks and the whole plan of the Loptyr cult was foiled by the lack of the S-ranked Tome of Viagra. Details like that get in the way of events unfolding so that the children of Deidre, Sigurd, and Arvis would kill eachother, replaying the original Holy War. That's why I think Seliph also had to recapture Darna in Chapter 7 right after the Yied shrine which served as a lair for the Loptyr cult. The player is supposed to see it on the map/capture it and think, "Wow, Darna. I know that place. It's the miracle of Darna all over again. By golly, it's another Holy War!" 

But, again, I understand that sort of thing being annoying. Plot contrivances are what they are.

Loptyr isn't divine, and there is no indication that either dragons possess such powers over causality. More to the point, the fact that fate or whatever rigs the game renders every choice the characters make essentially meaningless. They would be nothing more players in a some sadistic tragicomic farce. Julius was always screwed by destiny to be possessed by it. Julia was always destined to kill her brother. That's just plain garbage. I'd much rather the plot be a result of choices made countless agents than the whim of some higher power that got bored.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

From the supplemental material:

Q: What is the relationship between Loputousu and Narga?

A: The ancient dragon tribes possessed terrifying power and established a glorious civilisation, but they were currently facing extinction and it seemed impossible to avoid this fate. The Divine Dragon King, Narga, suggested to the other dragon tribes the idea of passing on the new age to the humans. However, the Earth Dragon tribe, who considered humans to be common insects, openly opposed the Dragon King’s decision and launched an attack with the aim to exterminate the humans. To prevent this move, Narga started a great war, recorded in the holy scriptures of Akaneia as the “Guardian God Narga’s War”. In Genealogy of the Holy War, the ambitious Bishop Galle believed the legend that “drinking the blood of the ancient dragons grants one tremendous power and eternal life” and traveled around the world, finally arriving at the continent of Akaneia. He met with one of the Earth Dragons, Loputousu, who allowed him to form a blood pact.

Well, we know at least one thing: Shadow Dragons aren't born. Whenever we are told about the Dragon Tribes, Shadow tends to be absent. As it is, we only have the one Earth Dragon that became a Shadow Dragon after his second resurrection (and since it was overseen/done by Gharnef, then we know he did something to make Medeus return as a Shadow Dragon), and the other Earth Dragon (but not himself, this is an important detail to not overlook) whose overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans was contained inside a magic tome, said hatred and resentment manifesting as a Shadow Dragon.

So yes, they are more powerful than Earth... but the fact the power of Naga can still take them down or bypass their defenses show she is still stronger.

If we want to get technical, LoptousEcho!Julius is a human body, not a dragon's. But yeah, for this one case, it is different.

That the other Holy Weapons aren't effective because they don't come from Divine Dragons. At least, that'd be my guess.

I didn't say Naga wasn't stronger. She probably was stronger given she did ultimately win. It's the "leagues ahead" part I think is unsubstantiated. Loptyr as a Shadow Dragon could have had power comparable to Naga wjil3 still being slightly weaker.

[hi_scroes]

26 minutes ago, Red Dingo said:

there is no indication that either dragons possess such powers over causality.

Not exactly, but Valkyrie's use of quintessence and the geasa in general all play with fate. It's up to interpretation, but to me it's no stretch to say the dragons are shown to have some influence over human fate. But I should do a longer writeup of what I think.

 

29 minutes ago, Red Dingo said:

More to the point, the fact that fate or whatever rigs the game renders every choice the characters make essentially meaningless. They would be nothing more players in a some sadistic tragicomic farce.

Have you considered that this is true of every work of fiction ever produced? A story can only contain what it contains, it can't invent a new ending for itself. Even if "fate" is not part of a narrative proper, every story is necessarily limited. Some stories play with this idea and some do not, but it's true for all of them.

But you're in luck. At the start of Chapter 6, Lewyn specifically says that fate doesn't exist. Yet it's interesting that Lewyn is also the one who, whether through coincidence or not, assembles everything perfectly for Seliph to be able to win. It's Lewyn who commands Seliph to carry on with his campaign, even when there doesn't seem to be any clear point to his actions like when Thracia is conquered or Ishtore is killed. And it's Lewyn who justifies his advice with "you'll understand someday, Seliph," only for his final explanation to be that the dragons descended upon Jugdral to alter fate and that Lewyn himself may or may not have been a dragon all along.

I think it's worth considering the degree to which Lewyn and Forseti actually do manipulate the story of FE4, and how their manipulations might have affected the plot in the same way "fate" might have. Perhaps Lewyn says fate doesn't exist because he himself is the one who, through divine knowledge, sets up the story -- no prophecy needed, just the influence of the ghost of a dragon.

[Tetragrammaton]

There is a chance Loptyr is Naga's secret identity. And someday Julia's descendant can combine the power of both tomes.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

10 hours ago, hi_scroes said:

That's an interesting perspective. Makes sense because Julius has Nihil, which negates effective damage in FE4 and would therefore make it impossible to actually have Naga do traditional effective damage against Julius. And Julius has to have Nihil because it's part of what makes him impossible to deal damage to, so I can buy Kaga wanting to portray effective damage through another method.

I usually interpret the Naga tome on a narrative level as negating the "cheating" of the Loptous tome. Loptous actually sucks in relation to the other holy weapons, it only provides a measly bonus of +5 Res. Conversely, Naga gives +20 Skill, +20 Speed, +20 Defense and +20 Resistance, a net bonus of +80 that's higher than any other holy weapon and wayyy higher than Loptous. It can turn a low-level Julia into one of your best units overall, not just for the Julius fight. It's like Naga confers an "honest" power based on actual stats. Loptous, on the other hand, only confers a "cheating" power that gives just a sliver of Res alongside a manipulative effect, symbolizing how evil and unnatural the tome is.

That's an interesting approach. The unnamed Dragonskin skill is a powerful one, sure, but I don't know if it's intended to be "cheating" or "dishonest". Other Holy Weapons give skills (i.e. Miracle from Tyrfing, Renewal from Yewfelle), so if it's "cheating", then it's not by kind, but by degree.

The +5 Res is presumably there just to ensure that Julius can't be touched by status staves. Kaga could've added an "immune to status conditions" skill to either Julius or the Book of Loptyr, to roughly the same end.

4 hours ago, Tetragrammaton said:

There is a chance Loptyr is Naga's secret identity. And someday Julia's descendant can combine the power of both tomes.

I don't believe there's anything that narratively supports this. Why would Naga give the Crusaders tools to defeat her own secret identity? The two dragons have different and opposite motivations.

[Red Dingo]

8 hours ago, hi_scroes said:

Have you considered that this is true of every work of fiction ever produced? A story can only contain what it contains, it can't invent a new ending for itself. Even if "fate" is not part of a narrative proper, every story is necessarily limited. Some stories play with this idea and some do not, but it's true for all of them.

The whole point of this thread is "what if" scenario. This angle you're going with here is essentially a 'nuh uh" to the entire premise of the discussion.

8 hours ago, hi_scroes said:

Not exactly, but Valkyrie's use of quintessence and the geasa in general all play with fate. It's up to interpretation, but to me it's no stretch to say the dragons are shown to have some influence over human fate. But I should do a longer writeup of what I think.

The Valkyrie staff has an entirely functional magic explanation that does not need "fate" to explain. I'm not sure which type of "geasa" you are talking about but the Holy Blood has an entirely mechanistic explanation as well.

[hi_scroes]

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That's an interesting approach. The unnamed Dragonskin skill is a powerful one, sure, but I don't know if it's intended to be "cheating" or "dishonest". Other Holy Weapons give skills (i.e. Miracle from Tyrfing, Renewal from Yewfelle), so if it's "cheating", then it's not by kind, but by degree.

The +5 Res is presumably there just to ensure that Julius can't be touched by status staves. Kaga could've added an "immune to status conditions" skill to either Julius or the Book of Loptyr, to roughly the same end.

It's still significant to me that the benefit Loptous confers is "invisible" in terms of stats and abilities, as though it's an effect beyond the "rules" that everyone else has to abide by. Gair wanted the tome to have power beyond everyone else but even though he obtained that power, it's evil and so can't be the kind of good, honest power that Naga would provide. Definitely buy that the +5 Res is to block staves but it's also worth considering the effect of seeing that measly stat bonus when you check Julius' stat screen vs. when you check Julia's -- the difference makes it seem like Naga is just straight up more legitimate than whatever weirdness Loptous is doing.

 

1 hour ago, Red Dingo said:

The Valkyrie staff has an entirely functional magic explanation that does not need "fate" to explain. I'm not sure which type of "geasa" you are talking about but the Holy Blood has an entirely mechanistic explanation as well.

Valkyrie is absolutely described in terms of "fate," or at least quintessence, when Claud introduces it. Tailtiu cuts him off, but he basically says that "if someone died before their fate -> Valkyrie works" and "if someone died when they were fated to -> Valkyrie doesn't work." It's why characters like Eldigan can't be revived even though Sigurd would have access to their body and Valkyrie -- Eldigan was just supposed to die around that time, his quintessence ran out. Obviously this complicates the discussion a bunch because "fate," in vague terms, is not something you should be able to die before. But I think it's a useful term when thinking about quintessence in Jugdral because Claud's momentary description of it suggests that there is some overruling power that determines destiny, even if that power can be played around with. That potential for playing is why a discussion like this is possible, but I just like to keep these more fatal powers in mind for such discussions -- that is to say, if someone had successfully assassinated Julius, how might fate be altered in Jugdral, or how might events transpire anyways to enforce the outcomes we see in FE4?

If you're not familiar with Thracia 776, that game is where geasa are first directly mentioned. But they're still useful for exploring FE4 since we see something similar with Forseti, and maybe Loptous and Naga. People have framed the "possessions" as "echoes" overruling people's minds but I think it's very interesting that Lewyn's revival by Forseti closely parallels the geas seen in Thracia 776 -- Forseti is clearly doing something to Lewyn, not just passively transferring some will.

A "geas" in general refers to a type of pact/cure seen in Irish mythology that often looks something like "you can have x impossible ability, but if y happens, then x is revoked," and it typically amounts to a foretelling that someone will do y and thus lose x, x usually being "you will never die." If you've ever read Shakespeare's Macbeth, then the prediction made by the witches in that play is kind of like a geas. This isn't exactly how geasa appear in FE4, but it's helpful to know their origins are rooted in fate and destiny.

I bring it up because Lewyn's revival seems to constitute a geas or pact with Forseti to the tune of "you will survive your death, but you have to abandon your past and guide Seliph," and potentially "you have to let me, Forseti, possess you." FE4's use of geas basically amounts to a pact made so that someone can avoid their death in exchange for some taboo or requirement being placed upon them. Since Forseti seems to directly manipulate Lewyn to a significant degree after his revival, I'd also argue that an FE4 geas can allow a dragon to influence a human's mind -- even when Lewyn is no longer holding Forseti, he still seems to be under Forseti's influence. This may or may not connect to the feeling Julia and Julius get when wielding their respective tomes.

Either way, the geasa can be described as involving "fate" because they let dragons manipulate quintessence to an even greater degree than Valkyrie alone can, as evidenced by the fact that both Lewyn's revival and the FE5 geas impose certain limitations whereas Valkyrie just revives, no strings attached. Forseti even uses Valkyrie to revive Lewyn (as revealed in an opening cutscene) but the strange pseudo-possession is more like the geas we see in FE5 than anything else -- there's no other precedent for a dragon possessing someone when they don't have their Holy Weapon on hand. So, since the geas are drawn from fatal mythology, and they seem to allow people to avoid a fate they would otherwise suffer, I think it's safe to say there is some version of "fate" in FE4, even if it's ultimately a lot more flexible than one would typically assume of fate.

[Acacia Sgt]

For its worth, this is what the supplemental material has to say on the "possessions":

Q: We’re clear about Narga’s intentions, but why did Holsety decide to help?

A: Loputousu, Narga and Holsety held different positions compared to the other dragons. Loputousu’s plan was obvious – “to use Bishop Galle to wreak vengeance on the humans”, which is why he formed a blood pact with Galle. The holy dark tome Loputousu contained Loputousu’s overpowering hatred and resentment towards humans, and was able to control the human who broke its seal (namely Bishop Galle’s descendants, those who inherited large amounts of the original pact-former’s blood). So it was, a human who possessed Loputousu’s strength and will was born. (The final boss of Genealogy of the Holy War was his victim.) In resistance, Narga gave the holy light tome, which he transferred his own will and power into, to Saint Heim. For Narga, who had always disliked interfering with the human world, this was a very worrying decision.

Holsety was younger and held a higher level of good will and sympathy for the humans compared to other dragons. If he had the chance, he would even reside at Jugdral and protect the humans there. However, he was convinced by Narga that it was silly to stay, so he had no choice but to return to Akaneia. Still, his passion and will was inherited strongly within the wind magic tome Holsety. For this reason, the humans who inherit the Holsety tome inherit Holsety’s will as well as his power.

As for the other 10 weapons, when they pass on their power to their successors, they do not affect the user’s personality. This is why within the Genealogy of Gods, there are 10 holy weapons whose name does not match up exactly with their god.

Q: Is the Levin in the 2nd half of the game the same person as Holsety?

A: I already mentioned previously how the Holsety tome would have a strong effect on the the user’s will. As soon as Levin obtained the Holsety tome from his mother, Queen Rahna, his body already contained another person’s persona. The question of who Levin from the 2nd half is doesn’t have a clear answer, but compared to the previous Levin his personality has undergone an obvious change. Even whether Levin’s own persona is alive or not is unclear.

Long story short, whatever is happening... it does not involve the original dragons at all. Only the essences left behind in the tomes.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Acacia Sgt

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Holsety was younger and held a higher level of good will and sympathy for the humans compared to other dragons. If he had the chance, he would even reside at Jugdral and protect the humans there. However, he was convinced by Narga that it was silly to stay, so he had no choice but to return to Akaneia. Still, his passion and will was inherited strongly within the wind magic tome Holsety. For this reason, the humans who inherit the Holsety tome inherit Holsety’s will as well as his power.

"On second thought, let's not stay in Jugdral. 'Tis a silly continent."

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Long story short, whatever is happening... it does not involve the original dragons at all. Only the essences left behind in the tomes.

I appreciate the quotes, but I don't agree with your reading of them. Kaga (I assume he's the one answering the questions) said, in reference to Lewyn, that

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

his body already contained another person’s persona.

This suggests that Forseti lived on in some form. Maybe not as a literal dragon, but his soul or personal will survived through the Book of Forseti.

Which... still feels like an asspull that doesn't make me like Lewyn's arc any better. For one, it's not a given that he receives the Forseti tome - it's at the player's discretion. Yet, if he didn't get it, or was defeated in battle before the generation ended, the game assumes he still got it. Second, while the Books of Loptyr and Naga portray their respective dragons when a spell is cast, the Book of Forseti... doesn't. It just looks like a powerful Wind attack, in the same way that Mjolnir and Valflame are powerful Thunder and Fire spells, respectively. Third, it raises troubling questions about the ultimate fate of some of Lewyn's sons. Is Lewyn!Arthur in control of his own destiny, or does Forseti (the dragon) have some sway over him?

[Acacia Sgt]

Just now, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I appreciate the quotes, but I don't agree with your reading of them. Kaga (I assume he's the one answering the questions) said, in reference to Lewyn, that

This suggests that Forseti lived on in some form. Maybe not as a literal dragon, but his soul or personal will survived through the Book of Forseti.

Take note of what is said right prior:

As soon as Levin obtained the Holsety tome from his mother

This means it was something instantaneous. Which is probably what this:

Levin:
“So this is our family’s Book of Holsety! Eraagh… What power! Where’s this heat coming from?”

Refers to. He's sensing the echo of Forseti entering him.

Just now, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Which... still feels like an asspull that doesn't make me like Lewyn's arc any better. For one, it's not a given that he receives the Forseti tome - it's at the player's discretion. Yet, if he didn't get it, or was defeated in battle before the generation ended, the game assumes he still got it. Second, while the Books of Loptyr and Naga portray their respective dragons when a spell is cast, the Book of Forseti... doesn't. It just looks like a powerful Wind attack, in the same way that Mjolnir and Valflame are powerful Thunder and Fire spells, respectively. Third, it raises troubling questions about the ultimate fate of some of Lewyn's sons. Is Lewyn!Arthur in control of his own destiny, or does Forseti (the dragon) have some sway over him?

Just because it's not a given it doesn't mean it can't be canon. Same for LewynxErynis being canon in Thracia despite not being sure thing in Genealogy. Sometimes developers will stick to a canon even if it was left to player's choice before.

And this is why Arran is the canon choice between him and Samson. Why Lewyn is the one Erynis married. That Marth did opened the chest with the Geosphere and that's why it's in Altea two years later. And other stuff that declares a set canonicity on things.

It's true about the spells... but well, they don't need exactly to manifest the image of the dragon itself to be a sign of that. Kaga stated Forseti left his essence in the tome, but that doesn't mean it has to take his form. Yes, it sounds like a cop-out... but it is what it is. This was stuff set for over 25 years now.

[hi_scroes]

2 hours ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Long story short, whatever is happening... it does not involve the original dragons at all. Only the essences left behind in the tomes.

How do you sort something like Lewyn being revived by Forseti into that? I think the "inheritance of will" stuff sounds more like the weapons form a connection between the user and some incorporeal version of the dragon (like a ghost), rather than simply creating a unique clone of the original dragon's mind. If it shouldn't be read as a pact, then why does Lewyn continue to behave strangely after he no longer has the book? If it's merely a fraction of the dragon's will and power, then why does Loptous (speaking through Julius) say that Naga foiled his plans when Julia kills him, while he only responds to Seliph when Seliph kills him? Generally, it feels more like we're supposed to take these echoes as "the dragons themselves," at least to some degree. And not only that, but since it looks like Forseti manifested and acted when Lewyn dies, it seems that the ghost-like versions of the dragons can do certain things. It shouldn't be a stretch to imagine ghosts affecting the world in Jugdral -- Sigurd and Deirdre give a ring to Seliph after talking to him, for example.

Kaga's explanation (or at least how it's framed here) especially makes no sense in terms of what happens in FE5, but that's a normal kind of discrepancy when creating a new work. But it's worth keeping in mind that FE5 literally states that a character made a pact with dragons, which is far removed from the idea of them automatically and distantly imbuing will.

Really the only disagreement I have is the suggestion that all of the dragons and "possessions" we see in FE4 are just brainwashes of sorts, because we see the dragons do things outside of what the wielders do. If that's not what's being suggested, then I'm confused on what an "echo" or "essence" is supposed to imply -- seems it either means a "blueprint" of a completely and utterly dead dragon being placed in a person, or an actual connection with the spiritual, ghost-like remains of a dragon.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Just because it's not a given it doesn't mean it can't be canon. Same for LewynxErynis being canon in Thracia despite not being sure thing in Genealogy. Sometimes developers will stick to a canon even if it was left to player's choice before.

And this is why Arran is the canon choice between him and Samson. Why Lewyn is the one Erynis married. That Marth did opened the chest with the Geosphere and that's why it's in Altea two years later. And other stuff that declares a set canonicity on things.

Yes, but those examples are "games canonizing certain choices within previous games", not a game canonizing a particular choice internal to itself. And it doesn't make sense with its own narrative. If Lewyn marries Erinys, but doesn't pick up the Forseti tome, then Ced won't inherit it. But... Lewyn did get the Forseti tome, even though the player didn't have him pick it up? It demands that two incompatible events be true simultaneously. 

If Kaga wanted "Lewyn gets Forseti" to be a given, he should've made it something that happens at the start of chapter 4, apart from the player's choices.

7 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Levin:
“So this is our family’s Book of Holsety! Eraagh… What power! Where’s this heat coming from?”

Refers to. He's sensing the echo of Forseti entering him.

Everyone has a reaction to receiving a Holy Weapon. Brigid, for instance, got her memories back. That's what the glow is for. While it's probable that, yes, this is the moment Forseti's spirit entered Lewyn, it's not externally different from any Holy Weapon moments that didn't involve any sort of "spiritual transferral".

[Acacia Sgt]

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yes, but those examples are "games canonizing certain choices within previous games", not a game canonizing a particular choice internal to itself. And it doesn't make sense with its own narrative. If Lewyn marries Erinys, but doesn't pick up the Forseti tome, then Ced won't inherit it. But... Lewyn did get the Forseti tome, even though the player didn't have him pick it up? It demands that two incompatible events be true simultaneously. 

If Kaga wanted "Lewyn gets Forseti" to be a given, he should've made it something that happens at the start of chapter 4, apart from the player's choices.

Everyone has a reaction to receiving a Holy Weapon. Brigid, for instance, got her memories back. That's what the glow is for. While it's probable that, yes, this is the moment Forseti's spirit entered Lewyn, it's not externally different from any Holy Weapon moments that didn't involve any sort of "spiritual transferral".

Well, we don't have an exact moment of when Manfroy killed Lewyn, do we? It could've happened some time after. Maybe Lewyn went back to Silesse, picked the tome, then some time after Manfroy finds him and kills him. As it is, Kaga's statement is being made after the game came out, so he already had it in mid that Lewyn does get Forseti at some point in Gen 1. Whether it's at Chapter 4 or not. If you trust the alleged info we have on the Prototype, then Lewyn would've still carried the tome and only give it to his son at Chapter 10, but we don't have confirmation on that, so we can't really use it to prove anything.

Looking at the script, Quan and Sigurd don't. Unless they have held the weapons before, because it seems it only happens when a wielder touches the weapon for the first time. Shannan and Seliph comment on its power, as did Briggid and Lewyn. I guess it depends if you can consider the heat as a separate thing from feeling up the power. Briggid, Shannan, and Seliph never mention the heat, for instance. So as it is, there is something separating any time a Holy Weapon is touched by a wielder, as we have at least three distinct reactions.

3 minutes ago, hi_scroes said:

How do you sort something like Lewyn being revived by Forseti into that? I think the "inheritance of will" stuff sounds more like the weapons form a connection between the user and some incorporeal version of the dragon (like a ghost), rather than simply creating a unique clone of the original dragon's mind. If it shouldn't be read as a pact, then why does Lewyn continue to behave strangely after he no longer has the book? If it's merely a fraction of the dragon's will and power, then why does Loptous (speaking through Julius) say that Naga foiled his plans when Julia kills him, while he only responds to Seliph when Seliph kills him? Generally, it feels more like we're supposed to take these echoes as "the dragons themselves," at least to some degree. And not only that, but since it looks like Forseti manifested and acted when Lewyn dies, it seems that the ghost-like versions of the dragons can do certain things. It shouldn't be a stretch to imagine ghosts affecting the world in Jugdral -- Sigurd and Deirdre give a ring to Seliph after talking to him, for example.

Kaga's explanation (or at least how it's framed here) especially makes no sense in terms of what happens in FE5, but that's a normal kind of discrepancy when creating a new work. But it's worth keeping in mind that FE5 literally states that a character made a pact with dragons, which is far removed from the idea of them automatically and distantly imbuing will.

Really the only disagreement I have is the suggestion that all of the dragons and "possessions" we see in FE4 are just brainwashes of sorts, because we see the dragons do things outside of what the wielders do. If that's not what's being suggested, then I'm confused on what an "echo" or "essence" is supposed to imply -- seems it either means a "blueprint" of a completely and utterly dead dragon being placed in a person, or an actual connection with the spiritual, ghost-like remains of a dragon.

Well, personally, my own interpretation is that, barring Forseti himself coming back to Jugdral... then the essence takes over Lewyn's soulless husk. A bit morbid, I know, but... well, Kaga himself opens the possibility:

Even whether Levin’s own persona is alive or not is unclear.

Keep in mind the physical brain would still contain Lewyn's memories, so that can explain how can Forseti know about what Lewyn did if Lewyn himself is gone. But again, there's no confirmation of what's the true nature of Gen2!Lewyn.

Well, again, this is only my guess... but do we know if the essence can copy itself? It'd make sense it pass to Lewyn... and remain in his body while the tome, still carrying the powerful magic itself, can be separate from him. Alternatively, like I mentioned before, if the stuff about the Prototype is true, then Lewyn would've still carried the tome for most of Gen 2.

Kaga repeated mentions the essences carry a copy of some of the will of the dragons. This is all metaphysical, but he's saying the essences are their own entities, separate from the dragons, even if they're still, to an extent, part of them. So they're aware of their surroundings and can influence them through their human hosts, but aren't the dragons themselves. Just because it's a fraction it doesn't mean they're insignificant. After all, the dragons' powers are vast...

If anything, we just get too little information. Even the pact is only just mentioned in the character ending... and that's it. Nothing gets elaborated on that.

I mean, that's what it is. By the time Genealogy happens, Naga is dead, Loptous is dead, Forseti might be dead too. The essences are still around, however, and that's what enters the human hosts and that, is what we don't exactly know what exactly happens.

---

As an aisde... as interesting as it is to discuss all this... it's off-topic. We should take this to another thread, I'd suggest.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Second, while the Books of Loptyr and Naga portray their respective dragons when a spell is cast, the Book of Forseti... doesn't. It just looks like a powerful Wind attack, in the same way that Mjolnir and Valflame are powerful Thunder and Fire spells, respectively. Third, it raises troubling questions about the ultimate fate of some of Lewyn's sons. Is Lewyn!Arthur in control of his own destiny, or does Forseti (the dragon) have some sway over him?

That's a very good point that I never noticed. Hopefully Heroes will rectify that by giving us a kick ass wind Dragon animation when Forseti gets put in the game.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Well, we don't have an exact moment of when Manfroy killed Lewyn, do we? It could've happened some time after. Maybe Lewyn went back to Silesse, picked the tome, then some time after Manfroy finds him and kills him. As it is, Kaga's statement is being made after the game came out, so he already had it in mid that Lewyn does get Forseti at some point in Gen 1. Whether it's at Chapter 4 or not. If you trust the alleged info we have on the Prototype, then Lewyn would've still carried the tome and only give it to his son at Chapter 10, but we don't have confirmation on that, so we can't really use it to prove anything.

It's not... impossible, sure. But I don't think this vagueness can really be construed as a plus to the storytelling. Lewyn survives Belhalla, then after an indeterminate amount of time, gets killed by Manfroy. What happened in-between? Did Lewyn actually die, or did just not the non-Forseti part of his soul die? Does Forseti's soul still inhabit the tome, or is it only in Lewyn's body after he touches it? If Lewyn gets the tome either way, then why is its inheritability gameplay-dependent (side note, having him hand it down in chapter 10 could've been pretty cool, even if it leaves two of his potential sons much worse off)?

1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Looking at the script, Quan and Sigurd don't. Unless they have held the weapons before, because it seems it only happens when a wielder touches the weapon for the first time. Shannan and Seliph comment on its power, as did Briggid and Lewyn. I guess it depends if you can consider the heat as a separate thing from feeling up the power. Briggid, Shannan, and Seliph never mention the heat, for instance. So as it is, there is something separating any time a Holy Weapon is touched by a wielder, as we have at least three distinct reactions.

It's possible the heat is something different, unique to Forseti (and possibly the Books of Loptyr and Naga). It's also possible that the others felt the same heat, but figured it was part and parcel of the "holy weapon" business, and didn't comment on it in particular.

58 minutes ago, Jotari said:

That's a very good point that I never noticed. Hopefully Heroes will rectify that by giving us a kick ass wind Dragon animation when Forseti gets put in the game.

Huh, didn't know the game doesn't have a version of Lewyn or Ced with Forseti. That's surprising, given they're among Jugdral's most beloved characters. But yeah, that could be cool, if they're pushing the "Forseti's spirit/essence/will lives on in this tome" explanation. 

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's not... impossible, sure. But I don't think this vagueness can really be construed as a plus to the storytelling. Lewyn survives Belhalla, then after an indeterminate amount of time, gets killed by Manfroy. What happened in-between? Did Lewyn actually die, or did just not the non-Forseti part of his soul die? Does Forseti's soul still inhabit the tome, or is it only in Lewyn's body after he touches it? If Lewyn gets the tome either way, then why is its inheritability gameplay-dependent (side note, having him hand it down in chapter 10 could've been pretty cool, even if it leaves two of his potential sons much worse off)?

It's possible the heat is something different, unique to Forseti (and possibly the Books of Loptyr and Naga). It's also possible that the others felt the same heat, but figured it was part and parcel of the "holy weapon" business, and didn't comment on it in particular.

Huh, didn't know the game doesn't have a version of Lewyn or Ced with Forseti. That's surprising, given they're among Jugdral's most beloved characters. But yeah, that could be cool, if they're pushing the "Forseti's spirit/essence/will lives on in this tome" explanation. 

Oh the game does have Forseti the tome in it (on Lewyn though, not Ced), I mean when Forseti the character is added.

[Tetragrammaton]

17 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't believe there's anything that narratively supports this. Why would Naga give the Crusaders tools to defeat her own secret identity? The two dragons have different and opposite motivations.

I take the idea from 2 games, which are related to this game in a mysterious way.

Radiant Dawn and Tearring Saga.