Meg or Fiona?

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Well, it kinda fits imho, given that [Meg] needs more effort to get anywhere than any other beorc unit in the game.

It's virtually universally agreed but anyone who has actively used both that Fiona needs more work to get going than Meg. It hardly even needs justification. Again, they have essentially the same bases, but one of them joins 4 maps (kinda 5) later and six levels higher (without the better stats you'd expect to show for it).

The only argument for Fiona being better than Meg (which I don't agree with overall, but acknowledge it exists) rests on Fiona having better potential.

I would also argue that Lyre and Astrid are at least as problematic at base as Meg is, but that's a tangent for this thread.

[FailWood]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I would also argue that Lyre and Astrid are at least as problematic at base as Meg is, but that's a tangent for this thread.

It would indeed, and I don't want Shadow Mir to derail this topic again.  The Meg/Gwendolyn comparison went on longer then it should've for not being the point of this topic, so if you all wish to discuss units like Lyre or Astrid, someone go make a separate topic.

[♠Soul♠]

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

It's virtually universally agreed but anyone who has actively used both that Fiona needs more work to get going than Meg. It hardly even needs justification. Again, they have essentially the same bases, but one of them joins 4 maps (kinda 5) later and six levels higher (without the better stats you'd expect to show for it).

The only argument for Fiona being better than Meg (which I don't agree with overall, but acknowledge it exists) rests on Fiona having better potential.

I would also argue that Lyre and Astrid are at least as problematic at base as Meg is, but that's a tangent for this thread.

Astrid is bow locked until promotion with horrendous bases and only two maps to do anything, that's really not at all comparable. Lyre 4HKOs Sages and can't even double consistently without 1-2 of Spd. And this is taking aside she has to transform to even do that...

Has anyone here actually tried using Meg with real dedication.

Edited April 24, 2022 by ♠Soul♠

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Astrid is similar to Fiona for having great skill and class considering caps. However unless Fiona it is easier to give her some levels in her debut chapter because of paragon and having stronger allies. Her growths are worse, but paragon can fix. 

[♠Soul♠]

2 hours ago, Julizan said:

Astrid is similar to Fiona for having great skill and class considering caps. However unless Fiona it is easier to give her some levels in her debut chapter because of paragon and having stronger allies. Her growths are worse, but paragon can fix. 

HI FAKE BLS

I don't think Fiona's growths are bad at all, it's just her awful bases and the fact every map she's in just hates her. She's borderline unusable for 3-6, even if you do train her.

[FailWood]

4 hours ago, ♠Soul♠ said:

Astrid is bow locked until promotion with horrendous bases and only two maps to do anything, that's really not at all comparable. Lyre 4HKOs Sages and can't even double consistently without 1-2 of Spd. And this is taking aside she has to transform to even do that...

 

3 hours ago, Julizan said:

Astrid is similar to Fiona for having great skill and class considering caps. However unless Fiona it is easier to give her some levels in her debut chapter because of paragon and having stronger allies. Her growths are worse, but paragon can fix. 

I said to go make a separate topic if you guys wanted to discuss Astrid and Lyre, because this isn't the topic for those two.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

This is what I got for coming out of the hell and posting in a Fire Emblem topic again after more than a year.

Alright, I will go back to my grave then.

 

Anyways if you have a problem with some of our posts, then just block them.

 

[Dark Holy Elf]

3 hours ago, FailWood said:

I said to go make a separate topic if you guys wanted to discuss Astrid and Lyre, because this isn't the topic for those two.

That's a bit harsh.

Personally I would not consider Astrid or Lyre to be terribly far off-topic here. The topic title says Meg and Fiona, but the reason for the thread (stated by you yourself in your original post) is to discuss units who are "pretty bad in Radiant Dawn".

Discussion tends to naturally morph. If you insist that every post must centre on Fiona vs. Meg, then this thread is probably about over anyway, because everyone has already weighed in and further discussion will be limited, especially if we must stifle ourselves by not referencing any characters outside those two. IMO it's much better to have a rich discussion in one thread than a chain of separate small threads each of which is kept religiously "on topic".

[FailWood]

43 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Personally I would not consider Astrid or Lyre to be terribly far off-topic here. The topic title says Meg and Fiona, but the reason for the thread (stated by you yourself in your original post) is to discuss units who are "pretty bad in Radiant Dawn".

If I wanted to discuss other units in Radiant Dawn who are usually viewed as bad, then I would've named the topic "Worst Radiant Dawn Unit?", or something along those lines.  My phrasing when asking the question initially was focused solely on Meg and Fiona, with the keyword being "both", as in 2 people and only 2 people.

44 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Discussion tends to naturally morph.

I brought up Shadow Mir earlier for that reason.  They have a history of doing that on discussion topics, and usually go off topic.

47 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If you insist that every post must centre on Fiona vs. Meg, then this thread is probably about over anyway

I felt this was done for bit, and was trying to stop it from going further off track.  I'd rather have shut down this topic without resorting to verbal policing, but that's not something a topic creator can do... for some reason.

[♠Soul♠]

This topic has inspired me to start a run and use Meg and show people what she's got. I'm about to start 1-6-1:

(I gave her an Angelic Robe+Dracoshield)

Edited April 24, 2022 by ♠Soul♠

[ussgordoncaptain]

In spite of saying things like Jill overrated it's more important to think about  "what is the best use for this unit" rather than "how good is this unit" 

So both meg and fiona suck, and aren't worth deploying unless their deployment is free. However Both of them can do things on the maps they have free deployment that is useful.

 

1-4 Meg can chip down some laguz, if you give her a steel sword she'll get doubled by the cats but not the tigers, if you give her an iron blade she'll get doubled by everything, but she'll do more damage. With the Iron blade she can combine for a kill with 2 2 range units like micaiah/leonardo/Illyana/Nolan's handaxe. if you give her a steel sword instead she'll need probably 2 magical attack to do the same thing

1-5 meg is mostly useless

1-6-1/2 meg can shove sothe, which is marginally useful in places.

3-6 you give meg the wind edge and she can chip down enemy gauges something which matters a lot when  8-9/12 of the dawn brigade units are not very good on that map. 
3-12 she can rescue allied archers to allow player untis to shove rocks, and she can shove rocks herself.

3-13 she can block ledges.

 

Fiona meanwhile

 

3-6 Fiona can do the same thing meg does but with a javelin. However she also has the nice utility of rescuing the black knight to send him forward. (rescue chain him with Jill)

3-12 Fiona is ideal for placing the shine barrier next to whatever your main carry is. 

3-13 fiona can do some silly rescue chains with leonardo getting him to the front, allowing your Ike killer (Tauroneo/Volug/Zihark) to kill ike without needing as many strength procs. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, ussgordoncaptain said:

if you give her a steel sword [...], if you give her an iron blade [...]

No mention of forged iron? If memory serves, iron with +3 might costs about as much as steel and has the same might, but better hit and no weight issue whatsoever. You can go for more power if you have the money. Even if you bench Meg later, the weapon can be given over to Zihark, so it's not a bad investment.

I've never used an Iron Blade that early. It doesn't seem like it'd be very useful even if you get one... how do you get one, incidentally?

[ussgordoncaptain]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

No mention of forged iron? If memory serves, iron with +3 might costs about as much as steel and has the same might, but better hit and no weight issue whatsoever. You can go for more power if you have the money. Even if you bench Meg later, the weapon can be given over to Zihark, so it's not a bad investment.

I've never used an Iron Blade that early. It doesn't seem like it'd be very useful even if you get one... how do you get one, incidentally?

 I misremembered and you can't buy iron blades that early. you can use the steel sword which is what I used and thought was an iron blade (steel sword only has 1 less might). You get your first iron blade in 1-8 in the armory. It's a fairly cheap weapon and buying 1 is often worth it for zihark in 1-8/1-E for killing scrubs. The +5 iron sword does have more might though.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 4/27/2022 at 2:08 AM, ussgordoncaptain said:

 I misremembered and you can't buy iron blades that early. you can use the steel sword which is what I used and thought was an iron blade (steel sword only has 1 less might). You get your first iron blade in 1-8 in the armory. It's a fairly cheap weapon and buying 1 is often worth it for zihark in 1-8/1-E for killing scrubs. The +5 iron sword does have more might though.

The Iron Blade really doesn't seem all that desirable. It has equal price and use count to the Steel Sword. But, it has 2 more Weight, 15 less Hit, and only 1 more Might. Outside of cases where that single point of Mt is needed to secure the skill, the Steel Sword works just as well, if not better. Admittedly, Zihark's Skill is high enough that Hit rates aren't likely to be an issue for him.

On 4/26/2022 at 9:52 PM, ussgordoncaptain said:

1-5 meg is mostly useless

I'll have you know that blocking the ledge before ranged enemies have gotten to it is a vital role!

On 4/26/2022 at 9:52 PM, ussgordoncaptain said:

3-12 Fiona is ideal for placing the shine barrier next to whatever your main carry is. 

If you're not juggernauting, Fiona can also be great for rescue-carrying a unit over to the northwest corner. Say, Leonardo, who can one-shot enemy Falcoknights with Lughnasadh.

[Shadow Mir]

On 4/23/2022 at 4:48 PM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

By this line of logic, two units could be numerically and mechanically identical, yet you'd assess them differently based on their class. Like, suppose you had a Level 5 Mercenary with 9 in all stats (including Con), and a Level 5 Myrmidon with the same. You would call the Myrmidon bad, by merit of having low Speed and Skill for its level (relative to class standards), but the Mercenary is alright, because you expect it to be well-balanced. Two units are providing an identical gameplay function, but because of the templates associated with said classes, you assess one to be worse than the other.

Meg isn't bad because she's a "bad Armor Knight", she's bad because of inferior bases and poor mobility. Fiona has fewer mobility problems, but throws "severely curtailed availability" into the mix. She's not bad because she's a "bad Cavalier", she just sucks.

Stat wise, Myrmidons are more specialized than Mercenaries. Just compare, for example, Joshua and Gerik. Anyways on the topic at hand, both Meg and Fiona have some really damning issues; the former being stuck with underwhelming growths and poor mobility (something that stands out when at least two of the maps she's usable on before Fiona comes along requires rushing to clear thanks to needing to ensure NPCs survive), and the latter coming late with poor base stats and being hindered by her maps (also of note, I have no clue why Fiona isn't deployable in 1-8, because she really would have loved to have an extra chapter to get a few level ups for 1-E, and that map has a lot of mages, which should be relatively easy to feed to her, and to be honest, she really needed it). All this being said, if I'm thinking over the long term, I'd still say Meg. Fiona at least has the distinction of being one of the two cavalry units that has a 34+ speed cap.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Shadow Mir