Ike is just a worse Sigurd

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Actually, unpromoted cavalry in general using only one weapon type, not the classic sword & lance.

Cavaliers exist in FE4, though. They don't exist in PoR.

Beyond this, FE4 splits Armors and Mages by weapon type. PoR doesn't, but RD does.

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Elincia having green hair and being a staff-using pegasus knight isn't a nod to Jugdral? 

Nope. Vanessa is green-haired Pegasus Knight who uses Lances (OMG just like Erinys), but she's hardly a callback.

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nor Mist being a sword valkyrie?

Ethlyn starts with a mount and a Sword. Mist joins with neither. Also, Ethlyn leaves early, while Mist is around the whole campaign. 

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Or Geoffrey being a Brave Lance blue-haired cavalier?

Finn starts as a novice, while Geoffrey starts as an expert. Also, Finn has no relationship with the supposed Elincia expy (Erinys/Fee).

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Like Lewyn-Azelle-Tailtiu, Soren-Tormod-Ilyana have green-red-lavender hair and are wind-fire-thunder mages respectively.

It's "green, red, silver" versus "black, red, lavender".

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Thieves can steal weapons.

Not in FE4.

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Skills

You've convinced me: Fates: Revelation is a reimagining of Thracia 776.

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Eyvel and Dagdar resemble Greil and Titania in certain aspects.

Which one is supposed to be which?

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Chapters 5-8 of PoR have a slight narrative resemblance to 4-7 Thracia an escape to safety with an element of tragedy.

Likewise for the first two chapters of Sacred Stones, or the prologue of Shadow Dragon.

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Tibarn and Naesala have a Quan-Travant relationship. The stupid honorable heroic king and the cunning distrusted mercenary king.

Tibarn isn't "stupid honorable heroic", he'll ruthlessly target Begnion's ships. Also Travant and Quan are never ostensible allies, in the way Naesala and Tibarn are when RD starts.

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Reyson can refresh four units, like FE4 Dancers.

Only some of the time. He can also fly, whuch FE4 Dancers... can't do.

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

The best developed part of the world of Judgral was the Thracian Peninsula, Crimea and Daein are hero plains and evil mountains. (This was also true of Lycia-Bern, but contextually, there are too many other Jugdral-Tellius coincidences.)

Also the more "plains-oriented" Altea and Archanea versus the mountainous Macedon and Dolhr.

On 5/8/2022 at 4:47 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Begnion is a hegemonic superpower on its continent, the one other time we saw this in FE prior was Grannvale. For all their pretensions, Grado and Bern found themselves rather easily checked by Frelia and Etruria (once the latter got its act together).

Archanea.

Also the Grado army totally dominates, stealing Frelia's stone without even needing to conquer their country. Even after Vigarde's defeat, they get Jehanna's, and come close to getting Rausten's.

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 5/8/2022 at 6:39 PM, Jotari said:

Elincia's hair? You might as well say the fact that she's a pegasus unit is a call back to Shiida.

When was the last time FE had staff-using Pegasus Knights? FE4. What, oddly, was the only hair color playable Pegasus Knights had in FEs 4 and 5? Green. Coincidence that Elincia has both a staff and green hair? Maybe, green hair is common among pegasus knights. But, the preponderance of evidence other little things, I don't think so.

Is Elincia's backstory like any of those Jugdrali Pegasus Knights? No. Never said that. Elincia isn't Fury 2.0 nor Fee 2.0 nor Hermina, Karin, Misha, NPC greenie or baddie greenie. Do you need writing similarities to seriously acknowledge Elincia as a possible Jugdral nod? A class-visual wink and nothing more? I don't think so. But if you do, then we'll just to agree to disagree.🙂

On 5/8/2022 at 6:39 PM, Jotari said:

These are superficial things.

As I said, it's mostly trappings, decorations. So many from almost entirely from just one continent, as the three games before it had done (Archanea-Archanea-Valentia). Tellius did its own thing narratively I agree. I try not to overstretch with my comparisons. If 3H is slavishly Jugdral or semi-slavishly or no-union full-time contract-labor copies Jugdral, well it has nothing to do with my point on Tellius.

On 5/8/2022 at 6:39 PM, Jotari said:

I already brought up how Holy Archanea was actually the first hegemonic super power

Ehhhhhh. It's mostly in the past. Grannvale as a superpower and Begnion as a superpower are well and truly alive in the present. The modern kingdom got trounced pretty easily pre-Shadow Dragon. Technically I suppose it also exists in the present with the War of Heroes, although, I dunno, something felt off about that. Maybe it fell too easily once Marth got back from Anri's Way, discordant with the threat it had been up to Khadein. Not helping is Macedon and Grust being trounced about a year prior, the potential rivals to contemporary Archanea are no longer at full power, barring Altea that gets backstabbed and Aurelis which is allied. -Course I suppose you could argue Daein and Crimea are both weakened as well in RD, that's fine. Personally, it didn't feel the same, but you do you.

 

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Which one is supposed to be which?

A little of each I'd say. Eyvel and Greil meet tragic fates in the early-midgame. Eyvel and Titania are mother-like figures to members of their groups. Dagdar and Titania are both implied to harbor romantic feelings for Eyvel/Greil. I suppose axes and maleness are the only things holding Dagdar and Greil together.

Maybe it's all coincidence, could very well be. But is it so wrong to speculate IS could've glimpsed back at the two T776 Jagens and added a pinch -just a pinch- of them to the recipes of Greil and Titania?

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

You've convinced me: Fates: Revelation is a reimagining of Thracia 776.

Context- barring a meagre handful of skills that sorta don't count in FE8, FE9 had reintroduced them after three games' absence. Did the franchise need Skills? GBA and Archanea said no. Why were they brought back? Maybe, just maybe, IS was thinking "hey, let's look back at those Jugdral games for how to improve the franchise as it stands ". 

And geez you and Jotari coming off as hostile. My observations weren't intended to excommunicate nonbelievers of some "Tellius is the Direct Reincarnation of Jugdral" doctrine, which I'm not even asserting. You're making me regret saying anything at all. This is a video game interpretation, need you burst my harmless little perspective so?

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

30 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And geez you and Jotari coming off as hostile. My observations weren't intended to excommunicate nonbelievers of some "Tellius is the Direct Reincarnation of Jugdral" doctrine, which I'm not even asserting. You're making me regret saying anything at all. This is a video game interpretation, need you burst my harmless little perspective so?

Alright, let me take a step back here. Perhaps I was more glib than I needed to be. I didn't mean anything as a personal attack.

I think the wording of Tellius as a "re-imagining" of Jugdral... really set me off. Like, that doesn't feel like the proper use of that term at all. I'd be much more prone to call Shadow Dragon a "re-imagining" of FE1 (remake that adds new characters, classes, chapters, and mechanics), or Echoes a "re-imagined" FE2 (character re-designs, new stuff like combat arts, pitchforks, and the Turnwheel). For me a "re-imagining" is a "remake with big changes". To call Tellius a "re-imagining" of Jugdral suggests that it lacks its own independent identity, and that its conception and details were rooted in Jugdral's own worldbuilding. And that's something I'm absolutely not on board with, even if that wasn't your original intent.

If the argument is "Tellius took cues and inspiration from Jugdral", then sure, I would agree. I think your points had... varying degrees of salience on this front. I don't think bringing back stuff like a "skills system" or "Str/Mag split" was necessarily a case of "mimicking Jugdral". Rather, it was the series "rebounding" after taking a step back. The GBA games were simplified in many senses, likely for a number of reasons (a "back to basics" mentality after Kaga's departure; hardware limitations; accessibility and marketability). To see them not add some mechanical complexity for their return to home consoles would be the stranger outcome, IMO.

Was Elincia inspired by FE4 Pegasus Knights? I'm skeptical, but it's not impossible. We've reached a point where Falcon Knights having staves is pretty normal, so it's hard to tell looking back.

Mist, by Ethlyn? I feel like Mist's place in her world, and relationship with her brother, is sufficiently different from Ethlyn's own to really cloud this up. But it's possible giving her a horse and sword upon promotion was an "easter egg" to Ethlyn, sure.

Micaiah, by Dierdre/Julia? I think there's more weight to this one. All use "the light", but have relationships with "the dark". All get mind-controlled/possessed, but in very different contexts. Micaiah and Julia are vital to beating the final boss (Micaiah only in a narrative sense).

30 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

A little of each I'd say. Eyvel and Greil meet tragic fates in the early-midgame. Eyvel and Titania are mother-like figures to members of their groups. Dagdar and Titania are both implied to harbor romantic feelings for Eyvel/Greil. I suppose axes and maleness are the only things holding Dagdar and Greil together.

Maybe it's all coincidence, could very well be. But is it so wrong to speculate IS could've glimpsed back at the two T776 Jagens and added a pinch -just a pinch- of them to the recipes of Greil and Titania?

Dagdar and Greil also both have brown hair, and they're both fathers. Dagdar meets a tragic fate too, if I miss 8x. Eyvel and Greil are closest, in their respective games, to having a "parental" bond with the main character.

Again, a "dash of inspiration" does not make the Greil Mercenaries a "re-imagined" Fiana Freeblades. They're their own thing, with different stuff going on. Like, the Mercs don't have "Fighter Bros" in the sense of Osian and Halvan. But they do have roles like Tactician/earlygame Mage (Soren) and Armor Knight/Casanova (Gatrie) that aren't really seen in the Freeblades.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Mistake.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

26 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

 Maybe it fell too easily once Marth got back from Anri's Way, discordant with the threat it had been up to Khadein. Not helping is Macedon and Grust being trounced about a year prior, the potential rivals to contemporary Archanea are no longer at full power, barring Altea that gets backstabbed and Aurelis which is allied. -Course I suppose you could argue Daein and Crimea are both weakened as well in RD, that's fine. Personally, it didn't feel the same, but you do you.

 

 

No bias 100% but Hardin!Archanea definitely didn't fall too fast outside of probably chapter count. Even ignoring the herculean achievement that Anri's Way are supposed to be perceived as(for all intent and purpose Anri's way was essentially a Shonen training arc), to win WOH Marth had to notice an opening in the formation of the entire nation, and even after that works he had to make a desperate rush against Hardin's throne before he got overrun after the message about Marth's ambush spreads around, both in game and in lore. And even beyond all that the only reason the strategy even work in the first place is because Aurelis effectively betrayed Hardin

Hardin!Archanea was definitely the juggernaut that showcases the hype about it being the strongest Archanea have ever been completely, lore wise.

[Interdimensional Observer]

11 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

If the argument is "Tellius took cues and inspiration from Jugdral", then sure, I would agree. I think your points had... varying degrees of salience on this front.

That's more like the argument I would make. So, fair enough.😀

11 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Rather, it was the series "rebounding" after taking a step back. The GBA games were simplified in many senses, likely for a number of reasons (a "back to basics" mentality after Kaga's departure; hardware limitations; accessibility and marketability). To see them not add some mechanical complexity for their return to home consoles would be the stranger outcome, IMO.

I never thought of it that way. I'm probably too attached to the quaint "Fire Emblems 6-10 were all made with a sprinkle of ashes from a specific continent" interpretation.😅 I can see your argument now.

Although technically speaking on technical limitations, I think FE might've been capable of a little more without breaking the GBA. Considering Super Robot Wars was throwing upwards of six skills on its characters no problem in the same era, plus a few more on the mechs themselves. But then SRW is niche & built around mecha fans, while FE was trying to be welcoming to a larger audience as you said.

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

When was the last time FE had staff-using Pegasus Knights? FE4. What, oddly, was the only hair color playable Pegasus Knights had in FEs 4 and 5? Green. Coincidence that Elincia has both a staff and green hair? Maybe, green hair is common among pegasus knights. But, the preponderance of evidence other little things, I don't think so.

Confidence? Yes. The gba games didn't have hybrid units. Classes were either physical or magical. Awakening also had staff falcon knights, doesn't make that a call back to Jugdral.

Quote

Is Elincia's backstory like any of those Jugdrali Pegasus Knights? No. Never said that. Elincia isn't Fury 2.0 nor Fee 2.0 nor Hermina, Karin, Misha, NPC greenie or baddie greenie. Do you need writing similarities to seriously acknowledge Elincia as a possible Jugdral nod? A class-visual wink and nothing more? I don't think so. But if you do, then we'll just to agree to disagree.🙂

No, but I do need something more than hair colour. Otherwise might as well call Minerva a Titania nod for having red hair and an axe.

Quote

As I said, it's mostly trappings, decorations. So many from almost entirely from just one continent, as the three games before it had done (Archanea-Archanea-Valentia). Tellius did its own thing narratively I agree. I try not to overstretch with my comparisons. If 3H is slavishly Jugdral or semi-slavishly or no-union full-time contract-labor copies Jugdral, well it has nothing to do with my point on Tellius.

Yes which are hallmarks all the games share.

Quote

Ehhhhhh. It's mostly in the past. Grannvale as a superpower and Begnion as a superpower are well and truly alive in the present. The modern kingdom got trounced pretty easily pre-Shadow Dragon. Technically I suppose it also exists in the present with the War of Heroes, although, I dunno, something felt off about that. Maybe it fell too easily once Marth got back from Anri's Way, discordant with the threat it had been up to Khadein. Not helping is Macedon and Grust being trounced about a year prior, the potential rivals to

No more easily trounced than Grsmnvale is for Sigurd in Gen 1.

Quote

contemporary Archanea are no longer at full power, barring Altea that gets backstabbed and Aurelis which is allied. -Course I suppose you could argue Daein and Crimea are both weakened as well in RD, that's fine. Personally, it didn't feel the same, but you do you.

 

A little of each I'd say. Eyvel and Greil meet tragic fates in the early-midgame. Eyvel and Titania are mother-like figures to members of their groups. Dagdar and Titania are both implied to harbor romantic feelings for Eyvel/Greil. I suppose axes and maleness are the only things holding Dagdar and Greil together.

Maybe it's all coincidence, could very well be. But is it so wrong to speculate IS could've glimpsed back at the two T776 Jagens and added a pinch -just a pinch- of them to the recipes of Greil and Titania?

Not confidence, no, just similar designs because they're part of the same series. As I pointed out you can find plenty of similar things to other continents besides Jugdral in Tellius.

Quote

Context- barring a meagre handful of skills that sorta don't count in FE8, FE9 had reintroduced them after three games' absence. Did the franchise need Skills? GBA and Archanea said no. Why were they brought back? Maybe, just maybe, IS was thinking "hey, let's look back at those Jugdral games for how to improve the franchise as it stands ". 

That's the same point as the hybrid physical magic classes. The gba intentionally went more simplistic in its gameplay system. Tellius using skills is no more a call back than Awakening using skills.

Quote

And geez you and Jotari coming off as hostile. My observations weren't intended to excommunicate nonbelievers of some "Tellius is the Direct Reincarnation of Jugdral" doctrine, which I'm not even asserting. You're making me regret saying anything at all. This is a video game interpretation, need you burst my harmless little perspective so?

Why do you interpret me as being hostile?

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Alright, let me take a step back here. Perhaps I was more glib than I needed to be. I didn't mean anything as a personal attack.

I think the wording of Tellius as a "re-imagining" of Jugdral... really set me off. Like, that doesn't feel like the proper use of that term at all. I'd be much more prone to call Shadow Dragon a "re-imagining" of FE1 (remake that adds new characters, classes, chapters, and mechanics), or Echoes a "re-imagined" FE2 (character re-designs, new stuff like combat arts, pitchforks, and the Turnwheel). For me a "re-imagining" is a "remake with big changes". To call Tellius a "re-imagining" of Jugdral suggests that it lacks its own independent identity, and that its conception and details were rooted in Jugdral's own worldbuilding. And that's something I'm absolutely not on board with, even if that wasn't your original intent.

To be fair interdimensonal observer wasn't the one to use that term, someone else did then they jumped it with examples when I questioned it.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Why do you interpret me as being hostile?

Perhaps it's my fault then for thinking that. Forgive me.😅🙇‍♀️🙇‍♂️

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

No more easily trounced than Grsmnvale is for Sigurd in Gen 1.

Jugdral still had armies intact though I would think, since they needed soldiers to occupy Agustria, Issach, Silesse, Manster District, and Miletos. Although, with Issach and Agustria already destroyed, a sizable number of "invisible" Silessian forces likely backing Sigurd and dying at Belhalla, and half of Leonster's finest dying in the Yied at almost the same time, I could be overestimating how much of the Grannvalian army is intact.

Arvis & Manfroy wouldn't have sacrificed enough to compromise their political ambitions however. And if losses remain within acceptable parameters, could you say Sigurd truly "trounced" anything? Not to call the Andrei-Lombard-Leptor forces a necessary sacrificial lamb, I would guess Manfroy would've liked them to kill Sigurd, though it was obviously tolerable if they failed (and it spared Manfroy from needing another three assassination attempts later).

It could be a point in my favor that even after whatever damages Sigurd inflicted, the combined Grannvale-Raydrik forces were enough that Travant could not attempt to seize the rest of the Master District once the kingdom-now-Empire moved in. This is only one front, and defense could be easier than invasion generally speaking, so it's no definite proof.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Interdimensional Observer