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New Heroes: Letizia & More


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44 minutes ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

From character selection (Raven or Ninian would be a better candidate) to her outfit.

Ninian was never getting an Ascended (especially when she just got an alt last month) because she’s getting a Legendary.

Ascended Heroes are clearly for popular characters that wouldn’t make sense (at least according to IS) as Legendary Heroes and Florina is fairly popular among the FE7 cast (and certainly more popular than Raven).

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I'm okay with Florina being an Ascended character, although I wish she was treated a little better. I have to wonder if she'd have gotten better skills and weapon effects if Letizia wasn't here. It almost feels like Letizia is supposed to be the big main star of the banner, not Florina or any other Blazing character. Because Heroes is definitely gonna show preferential treatment to its own OCs, right?

Anyway, Florina works for me. Ninian is definitely gonna get to be Legendary, and I could see her dragging Nils along for our first Duo Legendary Hero, if they don't just make Nils his own Legendary (if he's even a candidate, anyway). The other Ascended options are, I think: Nils (if he isn't a Legendary candidate), Nino, Jaffar, Rebecca, and Raven. I'm not sure if anyone else from Blazing is popular or important enough to warrant Ascended treatment.

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5 hours ago, Tybrosion said:

Ninian was never getting an Ascended (especially when she just got an alt last month) because she’s getting a Legendary.

Ascended Heroes are clearly for popular characters that wouldn’t make sense (at least according to IS) as Legendary Heroes and Florina is fairly popular among the FE7 cast (and certainly more popular than Raven).

I don’t think IS would be very troubled by Characters not making sense as a Legendary Heroes. After all we got Hrid who’s legendary deeds consisted of standing in the corner while Alfonse and Fjorm did all the work.

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4 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I'm okay with Florina being an Ascended character, although I wish she was treated a little better. I have to wonder if she'd have gotten better skills and weapon effects if Letizia wasn't here. It almost feels like Letizia is supposed to be the big main star of the banner, not Florina or any other Blazing character. Because Heroes is definitely gonna show preferential treatment to its own OCs, right?

They did highlight Letizia with the end-of-trailer slot and the trailer name. I'm not sure they de-powered Florina, but I do think it could have helped their rationale for going for a less prominent character.

13 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I don’t think IS would be very troubled by Characters not making sense as a Legendary Heroes. After all we got Hrid who’s legendary deeds consisted of standing in the corner while Alfonse and Fjorm did all the work.

OCs have different elemental hero criteria, and in any case the thing they were troubled by was running out of banner-sellers.

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53 minutes ago, Othin said:

OCs have different elemental hero criteria, and in any case the thing they were troubled by was running out of banner-sellers.

Yeah, and for a good while most FEH OCs were introduced as either Legendary or Mythic Heroes (usually the latter). IS has only seemed to start moving away from that starting last year with Nifl, Muspell, A!Fjorm, A!Laegjarn and now Fallen Gustav and Letizia this year. Prior to last year, the only FEH OCs that debuted in regular summoning pool were CYL Veronica, Laegjarn, Laevatein, Helbindi, Loki, Surtr and Ylgr (all Book II character plus a CYL winner).

That said, I do wonder if they originally intended for Letizia to be a Mythic Hero only to change their minds after Otr bombed as a Mythic Hero. It is kinda weird that Letizia isn't a Mythic when both of the previous Book Midpoint stars (Mirabilis and Nott) were.

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1 hour ago, Tybrosion said:

That said, I do wonder if they originally intended for Letizia to be a Mythic Hero only to change their minds after Otr bombed as a Mythic Hero. It is kinda weird that Letizia isn't a Mythic when both of the previous Book Midpoint stars (Mirabilis and Nott) were.

Letizia doesn't make sense as a Mythic Hero by any lore-related pattern. Every Mythic Hero so far, original to Heroes or not, has either been non-human or a divinely powered human.

As far as I'm aware, Letizia is just a normal human.

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13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Letizia doesn't make sense as a Mythic Hero by any lore-related pattern.

There aren't any lore-related patterns for Mythic Heroes to begin with past "IS is liable to make whichever OCs they want into Mythic Heroes". We have unremarkable randos like Mirabilis and Otr sharing the same space with literal gods while two actual gods in FEH's own world (Nifl and Muspell) are not Mythic Heroes.

Letizia absolutely wouldn't have been out of place at all as a Mythic Hero, IS just didn't feel like making her a Mythic Hero.

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33 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

There aren't any lore-related patterns for Mythic Heroes to begin with past "IS is liable to make whichever OCs they want into Mythic Heroes". We have unremarkable randos like Mirabilis and Otr sharing the same space with literal gods while two actual gods in FEH's own world (Nifl and Muspell) are not Mythic Heroes.

Letizia absolutely wouldn't have been out of place at all as a Mythic Hero, IS just didn't feel like making her a Mythic Hero.

I literally just listed two criteria where every single Mythic Hero meets one or the other. Letizia fails both.

The criteria explicitly exclude characters from becoming a Mythic Hero, but don't guarantee that characters meeting the criteria will become a Mythic Hero. Just because Nifl and Muspell were released as normal Heroes doesn't change the fact that Mirabilis and Otr meet the qualifications to come Mythic Heroes (or the fact that Nifl and Muspell also meet the qualifications).

The threshold is a matter of "can" and "can't", not a matter of "must" and "must not".

Edited by Ice Dragon
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2 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

I'm just glad Florina is using a different weapon.

Me, too. Now if she gets a proper seasonal where she isn't someone else's backup (Duo Lyn), I hope she uses a sword. She'd have three of the four colors covered then.

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5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I literally just listed two criteria where every single Mythic Hero meets one or the other. Letizia fails both.

The criteria explicitly exclude characters from becoming a Mythic Hero, but don't guarantee that characters meeting the criteria will become a Mythic Hero. Just because Nifl and Muspell were released as normal Heroes doesn't change the fact that Mirabilis and Otr meet the qualifications to come Mythic Heroes (or the fact that Nifl and Muspell also meet the qualifications).

The threshold is a matter of "can" and "can't", not a matter of "must" and "must not".

I get Mirabilis since she is a fairy (and the best one so far), but what about Otr that met the criteria? As I remember he did not receive any power from divine being

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1 minute ago, MagicCanonBalls said:

I get Mirabilis since she is a fairy (and the best one so far), but what about Otr that met the criteria? As I remember he did not receive any power from divine being

He is Dvergar and falls in the category of "not human".

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

He is Dvergar and falls in the category of "not human".

I'm pretty sure that in this universe, that's nationality, not species.

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1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

I'm pretty sure that in this universe, that's nationality, not species.

As are the Jotunar, but people generally don't seem to have as much of a problem with Dagr and Nott being Mythic as they do with Otr being Mythic. Heck, Otr is the only Dvergar that really gets any sizable criticism, as neither Reginn nor (non-dragon) Fafnir (who is commonly requested as a Mythic Hero) have anything actually Mythic about them other than being Dvergar. I don't think just being a main character is enough for Reginn to count as Mythic.

As best as I can tell, the developers appear to consider both the Dvergar and Jotunar different enough from the "stock-standard" humans of Askr, Embla, Nifl, and Muspell to be Mythic. Sure, they're more similar to stock-standard humans than the Alfar or proper gods, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, and this is where it looks like they drew it.

Yes, I'm aware that the position of this line is strange when you consider the existence of dragons and beasts from the main-series games, but I think it's fair to give original characters more leniency. (Plus, I don't think we've had fairies, dwarves, or giants in the main series, so these classes are at least more novel to the series even if they aren't actually divine.)

Edited by Ice Dragon
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1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

I'm pretty sure that in this universe, that's nationality, not species.

I don't think so. The way the words Dvergar and Jotnar get used in Heroes seems like a closer match for species words like the fairies than for human nationalities. It's just that these takes on dwarves and giants are particularly close to humans.

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29 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

As are the Jotunar, but people generally don't seem to have as much of a problem with Dagr and Nott being Mythic as they do with Otr being Mythic. Heck, Otr is the only Dvergar that really gets any sizable criticism, as neither Reginn nor (non-dragon) Fafnir (who is commonly requested as a Mythic Hero) have anything actually Mythic about them other than being Dvergar. I don't think just being a main character is enough for Reginn to count as Mythic.

As best as I can tell, the developers appear to consider both the Dvergar and Jotunar different enough from the "stock-standard" humans of Askr, Embla, Nifl, and Muspell to be Mythic. Sure, they're more similar to stock-standard humans than the Alfar or proper gods, but the line has to be drawn somewhere, and this is where it looks like they drew it.

Yes, I'm aware that the position of this line is strange when you consider the existence of dragons and beasts from the main-series games, but I think it's fair to give original characters more leniency. (Plus, I don't think we've had fairies, dwarves, or giants in the main series, so these classes are at least more novel to the series even if they aren't actually divine.)

I'm not arguing other people's opinions on this, really, since this is vague territory that can only truly be cleared up by IS themselves. That said, everyone here is treated like humans (albeit humans with certain biological traits) so I think they're probably humans. And doesn't Eitri herself refer to them as humans? I can't quite recall.

Anyway, I think the pattern is more that IS isn't really following a pattern (for long before they diverge) and were just adding Heroes-native characters as mythic/legendary heroes for a while there. It could actually be that the reason Helbindi, Surtr, etc. were added as regular heroes was because they wanted to get them in the game but didn't want to add a bunch of legendary heroes at once, rather than them not qualifying for legendary status.

I'd also argue that Letizia qualifies as "empowered by a deity" more than, say, Otr does, as Otr doesn't have deity blood in him but Letizia does. So, this is probably just IS being arbitrary, as usual.

It's not that I don't think patterns should be upheld -- I do -- it's just that I don't think IS is sticking with what they said mythic and legendary heroes were supposed to be (and now, the same seems to be going for ascended heroes.)

11 minutes ago, Othin said:

I don't think so. The way the words Dvergar and Jotnar get used in Heroes seems like a closer match for species words like the fairies than for human nationalities. It's just that these takes on dwarves and giants are particularly close to humans.

I don't see how. They seem to be used in the same way as all the other nationality names to me.

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22 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I'm not arguing other people's opinions on this, really, since this is vague territory that can only truly be cleared up by IS themselves. That said, everyone here is treated like humans (albeit humans with certain biological traits) so I think they're probably humans. And doesn't Eitri herself refer to them as humans? I can't quite recall.

Anyway, I think the pattern is more that IS isn't really following a pattern (for long before they diverge) and were just adding Heroes-native characters as mythic/legendary heroes for a while there. It could actually be that the reason Helbindi, Surtr, etc. were added as regular heroes was because they wanted to get them in the game but didn't want to add a bunch of legendary heroes at once, rather than them not qualifying for legendary status.

I'd also argue that Letizia qualifies as "empowered by a deity" more than, say, Otr does, as Otr doesn't have deity blood in him but Letizia does. So, this is probably just IS being arbitrary, as usual.

It's not that I don't think patterns should be upheld -- I do -- it's just that I don't think IS is sticking with what they said mythic and legendary heroes were supposed to be (and now, the same seems to be going for ascended heroes.)

I don't see how. They seem to be used in the same way as all the other nationality names to me.

Let's see:

https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Youthful_Sage

Alfonse:

Long ago, the dvergar were ruled by
the jötnar—but a young dvergr used
their craft to build great weapons.
With those weapons, the dvergar
fought on equal footing with the
jötnar and gained independence.
That young dvergr was named king,
and thus Niðavellir was born.

https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Velthomer_Brothers#Story

Alfonse:

Unlike Niðavellir, the jötnar of
Jötunheimr are fairly large folk.
And in contrast to Niðavellir's
reverence for innovation, Jötunheimr
has a culture rooted in tradition...
The jötnar have excelled at combat
since ancient times, but it is said
that they generally dislike fighting.
Jötunheimr is a peaceful country,
and it has been ruled by queens
for generations.

Looks pretty different from typical nationality talk to me.

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23 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I'm not arguing other people's opinions on this, really, since this is vague territory that can only truly be cleared up by IS themselves. That said, everyone here is treated like humans (albeit humans with certain biological traits) so I think they're probably humans. And doesn't Eitri herself refer to them as humans? I can't quite recall.

I'm using a very narrow working definition of "human" that means "stock-standard human". No elves. No dwarves. No hobbits. No fae. You get the idea.

If you would prefer me use a different word than "human", I can do so, but that doesn't change the fact that I'll still be using the new word to mean the exact same "stock-standard human" that I had previously assigned to the word "human". But my argument would still be exactly the same afterwards, just in different words.

 

All I'm saying is that the developers appear to think that dwarves and giants are dissimilar enough from stock-standard humans that they can be considered "mythical" in their eyes.

 

46 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I'd also argue that Letizia qualifies as "empowered by a deity" more than, say, Otr does, as Otr doesn't have deity blood in him but Letizia does. So, this is probably just IS being arbitrary, as usual.

I have not argued even once that Otr is empowered by a deity because he's not. Neither are Dagr, Nott, and Reginn.

And having the blood of a deity is nowhere near the same level as being actively and directly powered by a deity like in the cases of Altina, Ulir, Lif, and Thrasir. Letizia possessed by Embla could be a Mythic Hero, but that's just Embla in Letizia's body and not Letizia herself.

The Divine Generals get a pass because they're called the "Divine Generals" despite them not being actually divine or having actual divine power. But when you have weapons that can literally cause an endless winter before sealing them away, I think that's strong enough to at least be at the same level as being powered by an actual deity. And enough for the common person to refer to you as "Divine Generals".

 

46 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

It's not that I don't think patterns should be upheld -- I do -- it's just that I don't think IS is sticking with what they said mythic and legendary heroes were supposed to be (and now, the same seems to be going for ascended heroes.)

They have never once said what Legendary and Mythic Heroes are supposed to be.

All we have to go off of is the name and the patterns that we see, and if they aren't sticking with the pattern you think it is, then it's probably time to revise your pattern, not throw your hands up and claim that there isn't one.

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1 hour ago, Othin said:

Let's see:

https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Youthful_Sage

Alfonse:

Long ago, the dvergar were ruled by
the jötnar—but a young dvergr used
their craft to build great weapons.
With those weapons, the dvergar
fought on equal footing with the
jötnar and gained independence.
That young dvergr was named king,
and thus Niðavellir was born.

https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Velthomer_Brothers#Story

Alfonse:

Unlike Niðavellir, the jötnar of
Jötunheimr are fairly large folk.
And in contrast to Niðavellir's
reverence for innovation, Jötunheimr
has a culture rooted in tradition...
The jötnar have excelled at combat
since ancient times, but it is said
that they generally dislike fighting.
Jötunheimr is a peaceful country,
and it has been ruled by queens
for generations.

Looks pretty different from typical nationality talk to me.

We just see it differently, then, because it looks like typical nationality talk to me, especially since culture is referenced, and culture is intrinsically tied to nationality, not to genetics.

57 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm using a very narrow working definition of "human" that means "stock-standard human". No elves. No dwarves. No hobbits. No fae. You get the idea.

Likewise. By "humans with certain biological traits" I mean gene pools, like how humans that are native to hotter climates tend to have darker skin, and how in certain parts of our own world, certain ethnicities have different bone structures, but are all still human. Isolated gene pools.

Quote

I have not argued even once that Otr is empowered by a deity because he's not. Neither are Dagr, Nott, and Reginn.

--

And having the blood of a deity is nowhere near the same level as being actively and directly powered by a deity like in the cases of Altina, Ulir, Lif, and Thrasir. Letizia possessed by Embla could be a Mythic Hero, but that's just Embla in Letizia's body and not Letizia herself.

I was just using him as an example since he was the most obvious one. As for "having the blood of a deity," I only say this because that leads to certain "godlike" traits. They have the actual deity's power within them.

Quote

They have never once said what Legendary and Mythic Heroes are supposed to be.

I'm fairly certain this is untrue. When mythic heroes were first introduced, I recall them saying that this was specifically for gods or those with the power of gods.

 

Anyway, I'm just commenting on what I've observed and my own thoughts on it. *shrug*

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37 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

We just see it differently, then, because it looks like typical nationality talk to me, especially since culture is referenced, and culture is intrinsically tied to nationality, not to genetics.

Likewise. By "humans with certain biological traits" I mean gene pools, like how humans that are native to hotter climates tend to have darker skin, and how in certain parts of our own world, certain ethnicities have different bone structures, but are all still human. Isolated gene pools.

I was just using him as an example since he was the most obvious one. As for "having the blood of a deity," I only say this because that leads to certain "godlike" traits. They have the actual deity's power within them.

I'm fairly certain this is untrue. When mythic heroes were first introduced, I recall them saying that this was specifically for gods or those with the power of gods.

 

Anyway, I'm just commenting on what I've observed and my own thoughts on it. *shrug*

I can't think of any other Fire Emblem nationality with a demonym used that frequently, especially in reference to times before the nation was even founded. Like, suppose we substitute to this:

Long ago, the Sacaeans were ruled by
the Lycians—but a young Sacaean used
their craft to build great weapons.
With those weapons, the Sacaeans
fought on equal footing with the
Lycians and gained independence.
That young Sacaean was named king,
and thus Sacae was born.

Not the most applicable example, but the best I could come up with given that I can't even remember hearing demonyms for most FE nations.

Don't those phrasings sound weird?

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3 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Likewise. By "humans with certain biological traits" I mean gene pools, like how humans that are native to hotter climates tend to have darker skin, and how in certain parts of our own world, certain ethnicities have different bone structures, but are all still human. Isolated gene pools.

How you define "human" is completely irrelevant. You're trying to apply your definition to my words and are now wondering why my words don't make as much sense as I think they do.

If you are unsure what someone means by any specific word or a use of a word leaves its meaning ambiguous, the proper way to handle it is to ask how the speaker is using or defining the word, not to apply your own definition and then try to hold the speaker to your definition. Arguing what a speaker means when they use an ambiguous word is pointless when you have the ability to ask the speaker directly, and doing so is just deflecting from the original discussion.

 

I am using the word "human" to refer to the people of Askr, Embla, Nifl, and Muspell, who in a traditional fantasy setting would be referred to as "humans". The Jotnar, Dvergar, and Alfar are clearly analogous to giants, dwarves, and fae in a traditional fantasy setting and would not be referred to as "humans", even if they happen to taxonomically be of the same species as "humans".

 

7 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I was just using him as an example since he was the most obvious one.

You're using Otr as a benchmark for being empowered by a deity in order to argue that Letizia is more empowered by a deity than he is and therefore should qualify as a Mythic Hero.

That's an obviously flawed comparison because Otr is not a Mythic Hero as a result of being empowered by a deity. He is a Mythic Hero due to a different criterion, and how he stacks up in being empowered by a deity doesn't matter. Similarly, Letizia being more empowered by a deity than Peony, Mirabilis, Plumeria, Triandra, Reginn, Dagr, and Nott combined doesn't matter because, just like Otr, none of them are Mythic Heroes as a result of being empowered by a deity.

The standard to compare her against are the characters that are actually Mythic Heroes as a result of being empowered by a deity, those being just Ulir, Altina, Lif, and Thrasir. And she absolutely doesn't make the cut when compared to them.

 

29 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

As for "having the blood of a deity," I only say this because that leads to certain "godlike" traits. They have the actual deity's power within them.

What god-like traits has Letizia shown herself having?

I'm not completely caught up with the story, and all I'm aware of is that her Embla blood allows Embla to take control of her. Which is definitely not a god-like trait.

 

32 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I'm fairly certain this is untrue. When mythic heroes were first introduced, I recall them saying that this was specifically for gods or those with the power of gods.

I think you're conflating what the developers said with what I said about the Japanese name of the unit type and my inferences based on that name.

The Japanese name of the Mythic classification is "神階" (shinkai), "[among] the ranks of the gods". This led me to hypothesize that characters like the Divine Generals and Ashera's Chosen would eventually become Mythic Heroes when the unit type was first announced, which was reinforced when Thrasir was released and confirmed when Altina was released.

And I remember that there was definitely the same sentiment of "the qualifications are arbitrary!" when Thrasir was announced because people were too attached to their own notion of what a Mythic Hero "should" be and would rather complain that it doesn't make sense anymore instead of trying to make sense of the situation.

As far as I can remember, the Feh Channel that introduced Mythic Heroes said nothing of what to expect of the unit type and only gave the name "Mythic Heroes", the fact that Eir would be the first member, and the fact that Eir is an actual deity.

 

If you put in the effort to find patterns instead of giving up because the patterns aren't what you think they "should" be and treat the patterns as invitations and not as mandates, the Legendary, Mythic, and Ascended Heroes rosters all currently still make sense.

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I think an aspect of mythic units from the console games has to do with perspective of time as well. For example Ike and Altina have virtually the same blessing, but Altina is considered a mythic because at the time of RD she was around hundred of years prior. Though obviously was released as a legendary unit before mythics were a thing.

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17 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

How you define "human" is completely irrelevant. You're trying to apply your definition to my words and are now wondering why my words don't make as much sense as I think they do.

If you are unsure what someone means by any specific word or a use of a word leaves its meaning ambiguous, the proper way to handle it is to ask how the speaker is using or defining the word, not to apply your own definition and then try to hold the speaker to your definition. Arguing what a speaker means when they use an ambiguous word is pointless when you have the ability to ask the speaker directly, and doing so is just deflecting from the original discussion.

 

I am using the word "human" to refer to the people of Askr, Embla, Nifl, and Muspell, who in a traditional fantasy setting would be referred to as "humans". The Jotnar, Dvergar, and Alfar are clearly analogous to giants, dwarves, and fae in a traditional fantasy setting and would not be referred to as "humans", even if they happen to taxonomically be of the same species as "humans".

Um, no I'm not? You defined it as not humanoids, but humans, and I said I was using the same definition, then clarified what I meant when I referred to genetic traits by comparing it to humans from our own world (Such as how Asian people tend to be shorter than European people.) I'm arguing that the Dvergar are not dwarves, but short humans, and that the Jotnar are not giants, but tall, large-boned humans. Isolated gene pools resulting in certain traits, but human all the same. The Alfar, however, are clearly not humans, and are treated in-world as clearly not human (though they once were.) Likewise, the gods are defined clearly in the lore as not humans.

Quote

You're using Otr as a benchmark for being empowered by a deity in order to argue that Letizia is more empowered by a deity than he is and therefore should qualify as a Mythic Hero.

Again, I'm not. I'm saying Otr isn't empowered at all, and is a human, while Letizia is a human with divine blood.

Quote

What god-like traits has Letizia shown herself having?

I'm not completely caught up with the story, and all I'm aware of is that her Embla blood allows Embla to take control of her. Which is definitely not a god-like trait.

The extent to what traits exhibit themselves have not been fully explored in the story (and I wasn't saying Letizia's situation in particular.) Still, that she can be possessed by Embla is something that separates her from other humans. I don't know if she can close gates, but that's another power that those with Embla's blood have. Others with deity blood with special abilities across the series are quite varied, so I used a general catch-all.

Quote

I think you're conflating what the developers said with what I said about the Japanese name of the unit type and my inferences based on that name.

I wasn't refering to anything you said at all. Like I said, I believe I remember IS saying something about it. It may have been in a FEH Channel or somewhere else.

Quote

If you put in the effort to find patterns instead of giving up because the patterns aren't what you think they "should" be and treat the patterns as invitations and not as mandates, the Legendary, Mythic, and Ascended Heroes rosters all currently still make sense.

I observe what I observe and connect those without adding any of what I think it "should" be. Just because I remember things differently or notice different things or diagnose certain facts differently than you do does not mean I am not following the same procedure.

 

In short, I'm doing everything you're saying I should already. Please stop telling me my reasoning, because your assessment of it is very flawed. Please follow your own advice and ask me "Is this what you're doing?" instead of telling me "This is what you're doing." It is good advice. And I understand that mistakes happen, so though I did get angry for a moment there, I wanted to come in and adjust my wording (hence the edit.) After all, we're both intelligent people on the same side, trying out best to communicate with one another.

Edited by Mercakete
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18 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Um, no I'm not? You defined it as not humanoids, but humans, and I said I was using the same definition, then clarified what I meant when I referred to genetic traits by comparing it to humans from our own world (Such as how Asian people tend to be shorter than European people.) I'm arguing that the Dvergar are not dwarves, but short humans, and that the Jotnar are not giants, but tall, large-boned humans. Isolated gene pools resulting in certain traits, but human all the same.

Whether or not you think the Dvergar and Jotnar are or aren't "humans" doesn't matter because the developers clearly think that they are different enough from the people of Askr, Embla, Nifl, and Muspell to warrant being considered Mythic Heroes.

The Dvergar and Jotnar are clearly intended to be analogues to dwarves and giants given that the names of their races are the same as the dwarves and giants of Norse mythology. Whether or not they are humans in the genetic sense is irrelevant because "fantasy humans" similarly don't need to be of a separate genus or even a separate species as other humanoid races for the other races to be considered "not human".

I don't know the lore of Middle Earth any more than what is shown in the original movie trilogy, but from the point of view of speculative biology, the hobbits, dwarves, and elves of Middle Earth are likely still of the genus Homo, which taxonomically still makes them "human". They might still even be H. sapiens and are only differentiated as subspecies. Hobbits might even still be H. sapiens sapiens, but are still not considered "human", but I don't know the lore.

In most high fantasy settings, humans are typically capable of interbreeding with elves and producing viable, non-sterile offspring, which also puts both humans and elves in those settings as H. sapiens, again only differentiated at a subspecies level at most.

The genetic "human" definition is completely worthless to us here. In high fantasy, the definition of "human" can definitely be only a subset of H. sapiens sapiens.

 

21 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

The Alfar, however, are clearly not humans, and are treated in-world as clearly not human (though they once were.)

Taxonomically, that would make the Alfar humans.

 

39 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

I wasn't refering to anything you said at all. Like I said, I believe I remember IS saying something about it. It may have been in a FEH Channel or somewhere else.

The relevant Feh Channel and start time is here: https://youtu.be/csura_hbEVk?t=352 in English and https://youtu.be/27yq5rzy9H4?t=366 in Japanese. Nothing here.

The in-game update announcement has this, containing the requirement that the character be "godlike":

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■ Mythic Heroes and Mythic Effects Have Been Added
Mythic Heroes, beginning with Eir: Merciful Death, and Mythic Effects have been added.
Only godlike characters from the Fire Emblem series can become Mythic Heroes.
Mythic Heroes have special powers that manifest in Aether Raids. For more information, see the Mythic Heroes Are Here! notice.
The next Mythic Hero will debut in late January, 2019. After that, new Legendary Heroes and Mythic Heroes will take turns debuting at the end of each month.

However, the Japanese in-game update announcement has this (my god, this was a pain to find):

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■「神階英雄」と「神階効果」の要素を追加しました
「優しき死神 エイル」をはじめとする「神階英雄」と「神階効果」の要素を追加しました。
「ファイアーエムブレム」シリーズの中で神またはそれに類する存在のみが神階英雄となることができます。
神階英雄は飛空城で特別な力を発揮することができます。詳しくはアプリ内のお知らせ「神階英雄登場!」をご確認ください。

なお、次の新しい神階英雄は2019年1月末頃に登場、その後は毎月末に新しい伝承英雄と神階英雄が交互に登場する予定です。

The wording here is "神またはそれに類する存在のみ" (kami mata wa sore ni rui-suru sonzai nomi), "only gods and beings similar to them". "Similar to gods" in this case does not mean "godlike", but "of a category similar to gods", with the entire phrase translating probably a bit more precisely as "only gods, etc.", which is far more open-ended than the English wording. This has the feel of intentional fudging to avoid making a commitment.

The Mythic Heroes Are Here! notice mentioned in the update announcement only contains gameplay information.

 

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3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Whether or not you think the Dvergar and Jotnar are or aren't "humans" doesn't matter because the developers clearly think that they are different enough from the people of Askr, Embla, Nifl, and Muspell to warrant being considered Mythic Heroes.

You have to admit that reasoning is based on assumptions at best and is circular at worst.

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The Dvergar and Jotnar are clearly intended to be analogues to dwarves and giants given that the names of their races are the same as the dwarves and giants of Norse mythology. Whether or not they are humans in the genetic sense is irrelevant because "fantasy humans" similarly don't need to be of a separate genus or even a separate species as other humanoid races for the other races to be considered "not human".

It may not be as clear-cut as that, actually. Certainly, this is a possibility, but it's equally possible that their relative heights and builds were only inspired by dwarves and giants (which is my personal leaning. I just don't see enough evidence that they are entirely separate species to the Askrans, Muspellians, Niflians, and Emblians. I do find it interesting, however, that the Dvergar had a dragon deity who empowered their country's founder like the aforementioned four, but it seems like the Jotnar do not.)

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I don't know the lore of Middle Earth any more than what is shown in the original movie trilogy, but from the point of view of speculative biology, the hobbits, dwarves, and elves of Middle Earth are likely still of the genus Homo, which taxonomically still makes them "human". They might still even be H. sapiens and are only differentiated as subspecies. Hobbits might even still be H. sapiens sapiens, but are still not considered "human", but I don't know the lore.

This seems a little off topic, but I'll address it. First, "homo" does not mean "human," it means "same." "homosapien" means human. Secondly, in Tolkien's lore, the Elves were created first, and then the Dwarves were created as a sort of mockery of them. Hobbits' origins are actually somewhat mysterious, but it's hinted that they "evolved" from Hobbit-like creatures, and then after the Dwarves disappeared into the mountains and the Elves crossed the sea, they eventually integrated with human society and the two kind of merged.

Speaking from an inspiration point of view, Hobbits came from a typo. Tolkien was bored while grading papers one day and wrote "In a hole in the ground lived a Hobbit," but meant to write "In a hole in the ground lived a hobblenaut." (I can't remember how to spell that word.) Anyway, however one spells it, a "hobblenaut" is something that lives in the ground. So, a circular statement born of boredom. This was coupled with his writing stories for his children, and making Hobbits kind of funny based on some other creature said children liked at the time. (I can't remember what they were.) The rest was mostly pulled from (via inspiration, not 1:1 copying) old legends, especially the poem of Beowulf. That said, Middle Earth's time period was meant to be more straight-up medieval Europe. Tolkien was basically trying to write legends for his own home, and wrote primarily for his own enjoyment, not for a massive audience. It just sort of turned out that way.

That said, Tolkien's lore doesn't actually apply to FEH because FEH has its own lore written by entirely different people for an entirely different purpose. Though they seem to draw from similar sources, what is done with that inspiration is vastly different, and can't truly be compared in this respect as a result.

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In most high fantasy settings, humans are typically capable of interbreeding with elves and producing viable, non-sterile offspring, which also puts both humans and elves in those settings as H. sapiens, again only differentiated at a subspecies level at most.

I still hold that this doesn't actually have anything to do with the topic at hand. We don't even have IS' word that the Dvergar and the Jotunn in FEH are dwarves and giants as traditional non-human humanoid species. You just can't take rules that apply to fantasy in general or to specific lore and slap it onto a different piece of lore as it is each world's writer who gets to decide what rules apply and which don't.

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The genetic "human" definition is completely worthless to us here. In high fantasy, the definition of "human" can definitely be only a subset of H. sapiens sapiens.

Sure, but I don't believe either of us were using it in that way.

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Taxonomically, that would make the Alfar humans.

Not if their very DNA was changed, which it obviously was.

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The relevant Feh Channel and start time is here: https://youtu.be/csura_hbEVk?t=352 in English and https://youtu.be/27yq5rzy9H4?t=366 in Japanese. Nothing here.

The in-game update announcement has this, containing the requirement that the character be "godlike":

However, the Japanese in-game update announcement has this (my god, this was a pain to find):

The wording here is "神またはそれに類する存在のみ" (kami mata wa sore ni rui-suru sonzai nomi), "only gods and beings similar to them". "Similar to gods" in this case does not mean "godlike", but "of a category similar to gods", with the entire phrase translating probably a bit more precisely as "only gods, etc.", which is far more open-ended than the English wording. This has the feel of intentional fudging to avoid making a commitment.

The Mythic Heroes Are Here! notice mentioned in the update announcement only contains gameplay information.

Let's be honest here. The bolded part is conjecture. Should we really be taking a fan translation and assumption of what the intention behind the Japanese announcement was over the official localization's chosen wording?

Let's just call it like it is without trying to force an interpretation of the facts to fit a pattern that has been broken off from (as is the right of the company which owns the intellectual property in question.)

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