Jump to content
Fire Emblem Fan

New Heroes: Letizia & More

Recommended Posts

In FE lore, the closest equivalent to Tolkien-style humans would probably be beorc.


Given Nifl and Muspell, and Ylgr versus her siblings and F versus M Grima, I don’t think IS any strict criteria as to who qualifies as what type of hero. It’s just whatever they feel like doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

You have to admit that reasoning is based on assumptions at best and is circular at worst.

No, my reasoning is simply a description of who currently makes up the pool of Mythic Heroes.

It is an objective fact that the current pool of Mythic Heroes consists of:

  • God-tier dragons (Duma, Naga, Mila, Mediuth)
  • Actual gods (Eir, Yune, Sothis, Hel, Seiros, Ashera, Thorr)
  • Beings of divine origin (Ash)
  • Humans directly powered by gods (Thrasir, Altina, Lif, Ulir)
  • Humans with power rivalling gods (Bramimond, Elimine)
  • Alfar (Peony, Mirabilis, Plumeria, Triandra, Freyja)
  • Dvergar (Reginn, Otr)
  • Jotnar (Dagr, Nott)

Whether or not you agree with my definition of "human" and whether or not they are considered "human" by you or me, it's plain to see that simply being Alfar, Dvergar, or Jotnar is considered sufficient qualification to be a Mythic Hero.

We can just dump the argument over the definition of "human" altogether and just say "being Alfar, Dvergar, or Jotnar qualifies a character to be a Mythic Hero". Whether or not you agree that they should is irrelevant to the fact that they are.

 

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

I just don't see enough evidence that they are entirely separate species to the Askrans, Muspellians, Niflians, and Emblians.

They don't need to be. My working definition of "human" has nothing to do with species. You're the one that keeps trying to force species into my definition.

Is it just that you don't know what a "working definition" is? Working definitions are commonly used in scientific literature to say "when I use such-and-such word from now on, I specifically mean this". The most common reasons (not mutually exclusive) why you'd use a working definition are (1) there are multiple different valid definitions of the word and you pick one and tell the reader exactly which one you picked to avoid ambiguity and (2) you want to use a word as shorthand for something more complicated. A very common example of the second reason is the use of the word "dinosaur" to refer to the non-avian dinosaurs.

 

The most precise wording of my working definition of "human" is "humanoid that is not naturally a shapeshifter, is not divine or of divine origin, is not Alfar, is not Dvergar, and is not Jotnar" and if new humanoid races are added in the future, they will likely end up also excluded depending on how much they differ from Askrans, but that is not currently relevant.

 

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

First, "homo" does not mean "human," it means "same." "homosapien" means human.

From Wikipedia page "Homo":

Quote

Homo (from Latin homō 'man')

Depending on the field of study, "human" can refer to the genus Homo or to the species Homo sapiens or to the subspecies Homo sapiens sapiens.

 

1 hour ago, Mercakete said:

Let's be honest here. The bolded part is conjecture. Should we really be taking a fan translation and assumption of what the intention behind the Japanese announcement was over the official localization's chosen wording?

Let's just call it like it is without trying to force an interpretation of the facts to fit a pattern that has been broken off from (as is the right of the company which owns the intellectual property in question.)

No, it is not conjecture.

"Probably" here expresses doubt in the precision of my translation, not doubt in my interpretation of the meaning of the phrase. It is not me saying that my translation of "only gods, etc." is conjecture, but that my translation of "only gods, etc." is not a perfectly precise translation of the original meaning, but is still close enough to get that meaning across.

 

As for my statement of them intentionally fudging a commitment, this type of fudginess is commonplace in corporate Japanese writing when a commitment is not strictly necessary. This was an observation that their use of vague language appears to be intentional, given that intentionally vague language is normal in this type of writing in this type of situation.

 

51 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Given Nifl and Muspell, and Ylgr versus her siblings and F versus M Grima, I don’t think IS any strict criteria as to who qualifies as what type of hero. It’s just whatever they feel like doing.

I don't think anyone is disputing that characters that qualify for special Hero types can still end up appearing as normal Heroes.

Edited by Ice Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

-snip-

This is why I say it's circular: you're saying that the fact that they are mythic heroes shows that they are not human. (A proving B) but you are also saying that there is a pattern because all of the mythic heroes so far are not human. (B proving A.) This is circular logic, not consistency.

That said, I agree with you on some things, but would argue that your working definition of "human" doesn't actually work, particularly since that word is specifically referring to species, and the difference between an Askran and a Jotnar is nationality, not "human vs not-human" according to as much evidence as we have available (which is inconclusive, so making a conclusive fact out of it is not appropriate for the discussion.) For example, you can't have a working definition here be "fish" to mean "mythic hero" when the debate is about whether or not some of the mythic heroes are, in fact, biologically fish.

Anyway, this is getting long, so allow me to try to wrap this up:

I believe that the Jotnar and the Dvergar are as human as the Askrans, Niflians, Muspellians, and Emblians. You believe that they are as not-human as the Alfar and the gods (despite not having any physical differences from the ones you accept as human, and being treated as human by the other humans, as opposed to the "whoa, what are you?" or "I am not human! I am different!"-esque interactions that always happens when the humans encounter not-humans.) In the end, the only ones with a right to say this definitively is IS, and until they do, it will have to be accepted as ambiguous with room for interpretation on the players' parts. Can we agree on that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

This is why I say it's circular: you're saying that the fact that they are mythic heroes shows that they are not human. (A proving B) but you are also saying that there is a pattern because all of the mythic heroes so far are not human. (B proving A.) This is circular logic, not consistency.

Pray do tell how you're supposed to describe something without referencing the properties of the thing you are trying to describe?

 

1 minute ago, Mercakete said:

That said, I agree with you on some things, but would argue that your working definition of "human" doesn't actually work, particularly since that word is specifically referring to species, and the difference between an Askran and a Jotnar is nationality, not "human vs not-human" according to as much evidence as we have available (which is inconclusive, so making a conclusive fact out of it is not appropriate for the discussion.) For example, you can't have a working definition here be "fish" to mean "mythic hero" when the debate is about whether or not some of the mythic heroes are, in fact, biologically fish.

No, it looks like you still don't understand what a working definition is.

When a person gives a working definition, you discard all preconceived notions of what the word means to you and use the definition provided by the person providing the definition. It no longer matters what the word "human" means to you, and it no longer matters what the word "human" means to me. All that matters is the definition that was provided, regardless of what objections you may have to it.

 

Because you seem to be really caught up about the definition of "human" and insist that I cannot assign my own definition to the word that doesn't match what you think the word should mean, let me scrap my previous argument and rewrite it for you with other words:

Quote

As a working definition, I'm defining the word "thermos" to mean "humanoid that is not naturally a shapeshifter, is not divine or of divine origin, is not Alfar, is not Dvergar, and is not Jotnar".

All current Mythic Heroes fall under at least one of the following categories:

  • God-tier dragon (Duma, Naga, Mila, Mediuth)
  • Actual god (Eir, Yune, Sothis, Hel, Seiros, Ashera, Thorr)
  • Being of divine origin (Ash)
  • Thermos directly powered by a god or god-tier dragon (Thrasir, Altina, Lif, Ulir)
  • Thermos with power rivalling the gods (Bramimond, Elimine)
  • Alfar (Peony, Mirabilis, Plumeria, Triandra, Freyja)
  • Dvergar (Reginn, Otr)
  • Jotnar (Dagr, Nott)

Everything else is a thermos.

Currently, this is the list of all summonable Heroes-original characters with a non-seasonal version:

  • Alfonse: Thermos
  • Sharena: Thermos
  • Anna: Thermos
  • Gustav: Thermos
  • Veronica: Thermos
  • Nifl: God-tier dragon
  • Fjorm: Thermos, Ascended version is powered by a god-tier dragon (Nifl)
  • Gunnthra: Thermos
  • Hrid: Thermos
  • Ylgr: Thermos
  • Muspell: God-tier dragon
  • Surtr: Thermos
  • Laegjarn: Thermos, Ascended version is powered by a god-tier dragon (Muspell)
  • Laevatein: Thermos
  • Helbindi: Thermos
  • Hel: Actual god
  • Eir: Actual god
  • Lif: Thermos powered by a god (Hel)
  • Thrasir: Thermos powered by a god (Hel)
  • Thorr: Actual god
  • Loki: Actual god
  • Peony: Alfar
  • Mirabilis: Alfar
  • Plumeria: Alfar
  • Triandra: Alfar
  • Freyja: Alfar
  • Reginn: Dvergar
  • Otr: Dvergar
  • Dagr: Jotnar
  • Nott: Jotnar
  • Eitri: ???, but definitely not a thermos (Dvergar powered by a god-tier dragon?)
  • Ash: Being of divine origin (Askr)
  • Letizia: Thermos

It's normal for Heroes that qualify for special Hero types to be released as normal Heroes. It's also obvious that each individual version of a Hero cannot be more than one of Legendary Hero, Mythic Hero, and Ascended Hero at a time.

The following units are in one of these situations, reiterating the fact that these situations are normal:

  • Nifl: normal Hero despite qualifying as a Mythic Hero (god-tier dragon)
  • Ascended Fjorm: Ascended Hero despite qualifying as a Mythic Hero (thermos powered by a god-tier dragon)
  • Muspell: normal Hero despite qualifying as a Mythic Hero (god-tier dragon)
  • Ascended Laegjarn: Ascended Hero despite qualifying as a Mythic Hero (thermos powered by a god-tier dragon)
  • Loki: normal hero despite qualifying as a Mythic Hero (due to the Mythic Hero category not existing at the time of release) (actual god)
  • Eitri: Legendary Hero despite probably qualifying as a Mythic Hero (???, but definitely not a thermos)

Letizia does not qualify as a Mythic Hero, as she is a thermos that does not appear to be receiving any substantial amount of power from having Embla's blood.

Otr qualifies as a Mythic Hero because despite not being a god-tier being, he is not a thermos.

I made the entire argument without any mention of "humans". Are you happy now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that Alfar, Dvergar, and Jotnar all have the commonality of taking inspiration from various mythical beings in Norse mythology, I think it's perfectly reasonable to infer that Heroes may be treating the three in a similar, particular fashion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I highly doubt anyone who worked on Heroes' story does taxonomy for a living, or knows too much about that side of the biological fields. I've always considered the humans of Askr and Embla (and I guess the people of Nifl and Muspell are also normal humans) to be separate species from whatever Reginn and Dagr are, like how beorc and laguz are not the same species in Tellius even if they had a common ancestor. Because if Heroes' dwarves and giants still counted as humans, they probably wouldn't be called something else. This isn't a "beorc" situation we've got.

The alfar should've just been fairies instead of the convoluted "they used to be humans" shit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Japanese text uses the names from Norse mythology for the names of locations (minus the "-heimr"), but doesn't for the names of the people living there. The names for the people living there are written using native Japanese words.

Ljosalfheimr is "アルフ" (arufu), "Alf". The ljosalfar are called "妖精" (yōsei), "fairies".

Dokkalfheimr is "スヴァルトアルフ" (suvarutoarufu), "Svartalf". The dokkalfar are called both "妖精" (yōsei), "fairies", and "黒妖精" (kuro yōsei), "black fairies".

Nidavellir is "ニザヴェリル" (nizaveriru), "Nidavellir". The dvergar are called "小人" (kobito), "dwarves".

Jotunheimr is "ヨトゥン" (yotun), "Jotun". The jotnar are called "巨人" (kyojin), "giants".

It's also worth noting that the words used for the people in English are not capitalized (unlike how I've been writing them up until now and my laziness of always using the plural). Everything points to these words being used more similarly to fantasy races than to nationalities.

 

Also as a potential correction to myself, I think Freyr and Freyja should actually fall under the "actual god" category instead of "alfar". Freyr is mentioned to be an actual god in his description, and I don't think either of them are mentioned to actually be alfar. Let me know if I'm wrong in this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I'm not sure how to say things any more clearly than I've already tried, and it seems like trying to agree on terms isn't going to happen, so I'm out. We're off topic at this point anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

and it seems like trying to agree on terms isn't going to happen,

Agreeing on terms is not relevant to this discussion.

At no point in this discussion is the actual definition of "human" relevant, as shown by the fact that I was able to write my entire argument without the need to use the word "human". Nothing in my argument hinges on the definition of "human".

If you don't like my criteria, you can argue against my criteria, but that has nothing to do with terminology.

 

32 minutes ago, Mercakete said:

Honestly, I'm not sure how to say things any more clearly than I've already tried,

Everything you've said is perfectly clear. The problem is that all of it is just irrelevant.

It's like arguing against evolution by trying to disprove the Big Bang. The Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution, and the definition of human has nothing to do with my argument.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/7/2022 at 4:04 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Morph Fimbulvetr is "被造フィンブル" (hizō finburu), "Morph Fimbul". The word "被造" (hizō) means "that which was created", referring to the Morphs.

Added Morph Fimbulvetr to the translation notes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2022 at 12:47 AM, Ice Dragon said:

I don't think anyone is disputing that characters that qualify for special Hero types can still end up appearing as normal Heroes.

But doesn’t that mean your categorisations of who qualify as a Mythic Hero aren’t accurate? If both Duma and Nifl are god-tier dragons, and only Duma is a Mythic, then Duma is not a Mythic because he’s a god-tier dragon.

Edited by Baldrick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

But doesn’t that mean the categorisations aren’t accurate? If both Duma and Nifl are god-tier dragons, and only Duma is a Myrhic, then Duma is not a Mythic because he’s a god-tier dragon.

No? Just because a unit qualifies doesn't guarantee they'll be one when released. Being a god-tier dragon means the character can be a Mythic Hero, but doesn't mean that the character will be a Mythic Hero.

My categories are meant to exclude characters from becoming Mythic Heroes. Failing to match all of the categories prevents a character from becoming a Mythic Hero, but matching a category doesn't guarantee that the character will become one.

Part of this is to allow grandfathering of units released before the unit type was released (like Loki and female Grima), but also because there are examples of units that could have been released as a special unit type, but weren't (like male Grima, Nemesis, Nifl, and Muspell), as well as the existence of units that qualified for more than one special unit type and therefore had to give up their position in one type to be the other (like Eitri, Ascended Fjorm, and Ascended Laegjarn). If we end up with Future Past Tiki for her CYL version, we'll have yet another example.

I will never put a mouse in my soup, but I have the option to leave out carrots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But if you can’t say who will be a mythic hero, you can’t really say who won’t be a mythic hero because there’s no consistency.
 

Arguably it has already happened with Elimine/Bramimond, who have no connection to any kind of god. Their category is only included because otherwise there’s no explanation for why they are considered “gods, etc.”

 

If Sissy had been a mythic hero, I would argue having Embla’s blood and so being liable to possession by her is kind of like Ullr’s situation. A less arbitrary case of “etc”

Edited by Baldrick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a summoning session that had four green orbs and one blue one, I picked the blue one and summoned Sain. I'm very happy about it. I'd like to spend more orbs on this banner and maybe even spark it, I'd like to get Ascended Florina if possible. After that, I won't be spending orbs on any other banner until CYL in August.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Baldrick said:

But if you can’t say who will be a mythic hero, you can’t really say who won’t be a mythic hero because there’s no consistency.

Even though I can't say who will be hired as a doctor, I can definitively say that someone without a degree in medicine won't be hired.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to grasp the idea of strictly exclusive criteria.

 

13 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Arguably it has already happened with Elimine/Bramimond, who have no connection to any kind of god. Their category is only included because otherwise there’s no explanation for why they are considered “gods, etc.”

In Japanese, they are called the "Divine Generals", and their weapons are the "Divine General Weapons". Even if they have no connection to any gods, the people of their world consider either them or their weapons to be divine.

The divine dragons and Mediuth are not gods themselves and similarly have no connection to any gods, but the divine dragons are also referred to as divine by the people of their world, and Mediuth has nothing but a similar level of strength to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know when Guy gets added to the regular summoning pool? I noticed he wasnt listed amongst the summonables on this banner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Opdepov said:

Does anyone know when Guy gets added to the regular summoning pool? I noticed he wasnt listed amongst the summonables on this banner.

He'll get added to the regular pool when this month's Legendary Hero banner debuts on the 30th (the same day when the Letizia and More banner expires). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/13/2022 at 3:31 PM, Ice Dragon said:

Even though I can't say who will be hired as a doctor, I can definitively say that someone without a degree in medicine won't be hired.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to grasp the idea of strictly exclusive criteria.

I am not disputing the concept. I am arguing in this case, given the precedent, the wording used to determine who qualifies as Mythic, and the characteristics of the characters who have qualified, that the criteria is neither strict nor exclusive.

 

Quote

In Japanese, they are called the "Divine Generals", and their weapons are the "Divine General Weapons". Even if they have no connection to any gods, the people of their world consider either them or their weapons to be divine.

The divine dragons and Mediuth are not gods themselves and similarly have no connection to any gods, but the divine dragons are also referred to as divine by the people of their world, and Mediuth has nothing but a similar level of strength to them.

It’s only a title, it’s like saying if someone is called “Doctor” it means they have a medical degree. IIRC the weapons are created by humans, and their wielders are definitely humans.


That’s a good point, they are called “Divine” but they are not actually gods, unless you consider Duma/Mila pre-retcon. Letizia’s qualification is even stronger than I thought.

Edit: on second thought, aren’t Askr and Embla dragons and so aren't technically gods either? I haven’t paid much attention to the plot.

Edited by Baldrick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I am not disputing the concept. I am arguing in this case, given the precedent, the wording used to determine who qualifies as Mythic, and the characteristics of the characters who have qualified, that the criteria is neither strict nor exclusive.

The precedent is that not all characters that appear to qualify as Mythic Heroes end up as Mythic Heroes, which is exactly how exclusive criteria work.

 

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

It’s only a title, it’s like saying if someone is called “Doctor” it means they have a medical degree. IIRC the weapons are created by humans, and their wielders are definitely humans.

That's not a particularly good argument since "doctor" in English has multiple uses, some of which aren't related to medicine.

They were revered as if they were divine due to their power, similar to the divine dragons.

 

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Edit: on second thought, aren’t Askr and Embla dragons and so aren't technically gods either? I haven’t paid much attention to the plot.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Seiros is both a dragon and a god.

(I don't remember if Nifl and Muspell are also actual gods, but don't have the motivation to actually look it up.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The precedent is that not all characters that appear to qualify as Mythic Heroes end up as Mythic Heroes, which is exactly how exclusive criteria work.

That’s true as long as there is a reason for it, which I don’t think there is for every such case.

Quote

That's not a particularly good argument since "doctor" in English has multiple uses, some of which aren't related to medicine.

They were revered as if they were divine due to their power, similar to the divine dragons.

I think it’s a good argument because “divine” also has multiple uses, and doesn’t always refer to godliness.

Quote

They aren't mutually exclusive. Seiros is both a dragon and a god.

(I don't remember if Nifl and Muspell are also actual gods, but don't have the motivation to actually look it up.)

They are, so I guess it is as you say.

Edited by Baldrick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

I think it’s a good argument because “divine” also has multiple uses, and doesn’t always refer to godliness.

All uses of the word "divine" are still a comparison to gods, which is where it derives its etymology from. Even the most mundane definition, meaning "unusually good" still has that meaning because it is a comparison to gods.

In contrast, the word "doctor" has etymology meaning "teacher". Its modern meaning is split into two primary meanings, one meaning a medical professional and the other meaning a person with a doctor's degree.

All definitions of "divine" are still related to gods in some way, whereas all definitions of "doctor" do not necessarily relate to the medical professions.

Edited by Ice Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm done summoning on this banner. I got two Sains and sparked for Ascended Florina. I'd like to get Kent as well, but since he's the demote, he'll be much easier to summon later on down the line since he'll be in the common summoning pool. I'm very happy with what I got.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...