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Does the GBA FE games and FEFates need new characters?


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I noticed that Project Ember added characters to FE6 and there is a hack for FEFates that makes some boss characters playable I'm wondering if it's needed or even a good add I generally think they don't because the games mostly have a character for each class. Additionally, certain really good pre-promotes can IMO eliminate the need for a class from a unit, such as Perceval as a Paladin fitting perfectly into any team and eliminating any reason to promote and use another paladin before him.

Another example in PoR might be Muarim, he is pretty much Mordecai LVd up without needing to LV up Mordecai so I would recommend players use Muarim before any other Laguz he's also available around the middle of the game which is pretty good considering his LV IMO.

Another example is Vaida and Harken from FE7 I guess?

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On 6/7/2022 at 10:36 PM, Fates-Blade said:

Additionally, certain really good pre-promotes can IMO eliminate the need for a class from a unit, such as Perceval as a Paladin fitting perfectly into any team and eliminating any reason to promote and use another paladin before him.

Not necessarily. Alan and Lance are around for a lot longer than Percival, so it's still a good idea to use and train them. Besides, nothing says you can't just use two paladins. Heck, use three paladins. Lord knows the GBA games give you enough of them.

Now. Are more characters bad? I think they're generally unlikely to cause harm, as long as they aren't game breaking. A bad unit can be ignored, but a good unit can be too tempting to leave on the bench, even if they make the game boring.

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I think the GBAFE games could use some more characters, depending on how remakes go about things like supports. I think FE8 is the only game that would greatly benefit from more characters, but I wouldn't object. FE6 giving us a prepromoted Sage would be pretty nice, for example. If they end up going a more story-heavy direction with the GBA games, I think FE8 could get one or two, but FE6 and FE7 don't need additions story-wise IMO; improving on the existing cast would be fine enough for me.

As for Fates... Nah, I don't think it really does. We're likely a very long ways off from a Fates remake regardless, but I think the existing cast fills all the gaps gameplay-wise, and just needs some expansion through better writing. It already has the makings of a good ensemble, though.

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We'd have to take it game by game.

Binding Blade certainly doesn't. At 54 characters total, 51 per playthrough, the cast is already very big, very possibly bloated.

  • We already have:
    • 4 Cavaliers and 3 Paladins.
    • 3 Knights and 1 General.
    • 2 Archers and 2 Snipers.
    • 2 Myrmidons/Mercenaries/Fighters/Nomads/Peg Knight and 1 Swordmaster/Hero/Warrior/Nomad Trooper/Falco Knight. 
    • 2 units that can promote to Berserker and 1 Berserker.
    • 3 Mages
    • 2 Shamans/unpromoted infantry staff and 1 Druid/Bishop
    • 2 Wyvern Riders
    • 1 Troubadour and 1 Valkyrie
    • 3 Thieves.

A ratio 2:1 unpromoted:promoted seems solid for a class I would say (at least prior to Awakening and the modern emphasis on class swapping as an option), and almost every category in FE6 meets that ratio.

Nonetheless, since I consider Blazing Blade a perfectly fine game, I have the urge to add nods towards Blazing. Units would be one way to do that. But no, I must resist the idea of adding playable Pent or Erk or someone else! The Binding cast is big enough.

Blazing Sword has a smaller cast, 43 on Hector Mode with 41 per playthrough. But, I think it's largely okay with it's got. We only get 1 Monk and 1 Shaman, but it doesn't feel so bad with magic users with the magic types being so samey. Low enemy stats suppose offers some cushion against RNG screwage too. We could add a couple more, but I'm not sure which classes need it (maybe Knight, Wallace is optional and pretty bad).

Sacred Stones is a cast of 33 without Creature Campaign, that is very small amongst the "normal" FEs. I would be all for adding like 7-9 characters to offer more RNG screwage alternatives, and it would still avoid feeling bloated.

 

On 6/9/2022 at 2:56 AM, Benice said:

As for Fates... Nah, I don't think it really does. We're likely a very long ways off from a Fates remake regardless, but I think the existing cast fills all the gaps gameplay-wise

A second Oni Savage or one of its promotions would be good. Rinkah alone reps that class by default, and she is a mixed bag.

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I usually don't mind more characters in general. More characters mean more characters to learn about and grow to love. They also mean a different team composition. Dieck isn't going to play the same as Echidna because they both have slightly different specialties - Dieck is going to kick butt with swords while Echidna has a naturally high rank with axes. For Iron Man runs, I imagine more characters are both a blessing and a curse. The more characters open, the easier it may be to lose a unit; but that may result in a less challenging run overall. IDK, I don't do Iron Man playthroughs. 

 

I wouldn't mind more units as legacy characters for Binding Blade in hindsight, but no more than 5. (One for Lyn that's canonical, one for Mark, one for Priscilla, and one for Erk, if not Erk himself. Oh, and one for Harkin and Isadora, or at least Isadora.) 

 

Blazing Sword...I think I'm good, honestly, although that might be nostalgia talking. If anything, I'd like to see another woman from the Plains tribes, so we can flesh those out a tad more. I love the Sacae Plains, and I'd love to see more of them in relation to Lyn and how another girl from the plains may see her. 

 

For Fates...yes, but with asterisk for most of them. As others have said, a male Oni Savage should be included easily. This is the highest priority to me, alongside a male Merchant that can be included on every route. (Yukimura can only be recruited in Birthright.)

Lucina should be another retainer of Elise's IMO, since Elise is the only Nohr sibling without an Awakening retainer. I think Lucina could fit the bill pretty much perfectly. (She could be a Cavalier with Archer as her secondary class, and can Friendship Seal Hana to gain access to the Swordmaster line. She also can have a nice "Sword/Axe/Lance" thing going on with Arthur and Effie in that case as well.) 

I saw some artwork for a Child Unit that looked like Chrom once, years ago, and now I want it. (I think he was the son of Yukimura?) GIVE CAMILLA A SON THAT LOOKS LIKE A YOUNG FREDERICK JUST TO COMPLETE THE OG TRIO.

Selena should probably have her own child, if only to make things fair for the Awakening Trio. Granted, if I could, I'd move Caeldori to being Selena's child and give Subaki a different child. (If people really want a mindscrew, though, one could give Selena a son that looks like Chrom. I'd probably have it so that if Caeldori goes to Selena, then Subaki can have an Oni Chieftan son that looks like Chrom, or something similar.*)

I think another Kitsune and Wolfskin would be appreciated as well, a first gen woman for each. 

Lastly, Layla as a recruitable character on all routes. She has a unique model, and the story clearly intended to do more with her than it did. Heroes has paved a way for future games to utilize two Dancers at once, so I don't see what the problem is now. 

 

For other games, I'm all in for new characters as well, but this was for the GBA games and Fates. 

 

 

*It'd be too obvious to give Lucina the son that looks like her father, although Soleil looks a lot like Olivia, and Ophelia and Lissa basically use the same model...

Edited by Use the Falchion
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I think Binding Blade is pretty set in terms of characters. The cast is pretty sizable already and there aren`t really any gameplay roles that are missing.

Blazing Sword I would say is much the same. The cast is a bit smaller, but most classes is covered (save some female versions of others, like Mercenary. Shaman and Nomad). 

Sacred Stones I could see working with a few additions, though personally, I think it would benefit more with limiting certain characters to a specific twin. Like Seth, Franz, Neimi and Innes go with Erika, while Forde, Kyle, Knoll and Tana go with Ephriam.  

Fates I think is fine, though a male Oni  Savage/Chieftan would be a nice addition.

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Other than Sacred Stones, no, I don't think they need new characters. I think Fates and Binding Blade in particular can benefit from improved unit balance, though.

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Fates has enough, I would say. On top of the default units and the kids, you can also capture enemy units, or buy them from the shop, or get them from other people's Castles. There's never a shortage of playable units.

Roy's Emblem is approaching overstuffed territory. I could maybe say making Guinevere playable, or adding a character connected to Lyn, but that's it.

Eliwood's Emblem is more modest in its cast size. People have talked about a playable Mark, and I've shilled for a Lyn's Story rewrite that adds a playable female Nomad. Otherwise, you could do "recruitable Sophia on the Dread Isle" or something. IDK.

Sacred Stones is the smallest of the bunch, at least before considering the Creature Campaign exclusives. Perhaps Hayden could get "promoted" from that bunch, to become a Gotoh of sorts. A Brigand and a female Shaman could be cool, too. Also playable Morva, so I can get him to say his signature crit quote: "It's Morvin' time!"

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Adding a Lyn reference to Binding Blade is trying to patch a hole that only exists because they created Lyn in the first place.

There already is a pre-promoted Oni Chieftan, it's Kumagera.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Sacred Stones is the smallest of the bunch, at least before considering the Creature Campaign exclusives. Perhaps Hayden could get "promoted" from that bunch, to become a Gotoh of sorts. A Brigand and a female Shaman could be cool, too. Also playable Morva, so I can get him to say his signature crit quote: "It's Morvin' time!"

Looks like another #morvasweep!

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SacSto doesn't really have too many roles/classes "missing" per se, I'd say, but it doesn't really double up on roles where BinBla and BlaBla did: only one Fighter, only half a Pirate, only one-and-a-half Mages... I'd say it could use some back-ups in some cases, though:

  • A Mage with a different stat spread than Lute and Ewan. The two aren't quite identical, but "feel" relatively same-y when raised: Good to great Mag, good Spd, bad durability.
  • A more combat-orientated Shaman. I guess Ewan can do this, but he's only "half" a Shaman to begin with. A more Canas-like Shaman with more physical durability than the other magic users could've been interesting.
  • A second Armour Knight. I get it, the class is terrible, but SacSto does offer it a decent promotion option in GK, and you have Gilliam and his slow butt as its only representive. I guess Amelia counts, but again, only half a Knight. ;): In a way, I almost wish that she'd join all Wendy-like as a Lv.1 Knight.
  • I do miss Nomads. I suppose that they wouldn't fit with the promotion scheme, since there's only one class with both a horse and a bow, but still...
  • A Pirate and/or Brigand. Ross has the former as his (imo) mechanically best path, but he feels much more like a Fighter->Warrior narratively - the Wade to Garcia's Lot, in a way.
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7 hours ago, ping said:

I do miss Nomads. I suppose that they wouldn't fit with the promotion scheme, since there's only one class with both a horse and a bow, but still...

Honestly, I don't think you could have fit nomads into Sacred Stones anyway, thematically speaking.

17 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

There already is a pre-promoted Oni Chieftan, it's Kumagera.

Honestly, I don't think the lack of an Oni Chieftain is a big loss in the first place, because the Oni Chieftain class sucks. And to be blunt, Kumagera ain't so great as to be worth it either, especially when you need to deploy a specific character that ain't even that good just to get him.

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8 hours ago, ping said:

I do miss Nomads. I suppose that they wouldn't fit with the promotion scheme, since there's only one class with both a horse and a bow, but still...

Ranger pre-promote. Easy. But nomad really is designed for Elibe as a setting (or perhaps vice-versa), so that wouldn't really work.

I'd be down for an extra shaman and a brigand, though.

59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I don't think the lack of an Oni Chieftain is a big loss in the first place, because the Oni Chieftain class sucks. And to be blunt, Kumagera ain't so great as to be worth it either, especially when you need to deploy a specific character that ain't even that good just to get him.

I mean yeah sure the guy has more strength and defense than Camilla, Darting Blow, Shove, great weapon ranks, and never misses on player phase, but okay, he sucks, whatever.

If you hate Niles and you hate Mozu, who do you actually have shoot fliers in Conquest?

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5 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I mean yeah sure the guy has more strength and defense than Camilla, Darting Blow, Shove, great weapon ranks, and never misses on player phase, but okay, he sucks, whatever.

If you hate Niles and you hate Mozu, who do you actually have shoot fliers in Conquest?

What DOES matter is that he's stuck in a bad class, which dooms him to mediocrity. 

That's easy. Nina and Anna. Also, Bow Knights.

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10 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

What DOES matter is that he's stuck in a bad class, which dooms him to mediocrity. 

That's easy. Nina and Anna. Also, Bow Knights.

Class is a framework onto which stats and skills are plastered to create a unit. Good stats and skills in a bad class is a good unit because the game doesn't check whether you're an Oni Savage to see if you can one-shot that enemy, it checks your strength stat.

Excellent. How do you get Nina by Chapter 10 without using Niles?

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18 minutes ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Ranger pre-promote. Easy. But nomad really is designed for Elibe as a setting (or perhaps vice-versa), so that wouldn't really work.

Oh, I didn't mean the Sacae flavour specifically, I just like archers on horseback in general. The uniquely high reach that Shin/Sue/Rath with a Longbow have is neat. But I guess a Ranger prepromote would work just fine - bonus points for King Hayden being of that class already, so you don't even have to think of a new character.

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1 hour ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Class is a framework onto which stats and skills are plastered to create a unit. Good stats and skills in a bad class is a good unit because the game doesn't check whether you're an Oni Savage to see if you can one-shot that enemy, it checks your strength stat.

Excellent. How do you get Nina by Chapter 10 without using Niles?

Class is only one aspect of a unit, yes, I agree. Stats are also important, but not so much that they make up for being locked to a bad class. Also, his needing to be captured is already enough to make him a tough sell, because captured units don't benefit from supports, among other disadvantages. Also, you attempted to compare him to Camilla, did you not? Unfortunately, that falls flat on its ass because Camilla has support abilities that he doesn't, namely her personal and Rally Defense.

As to Niles and Nina, since that's about the only thing he's good for in my book, I am nice enough to at least allow him to see use until I unlock her paralogue.

Edited by Shadow Mir
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On 6/11/2022 at 8:39 AM, ping said:
  • A Mage with a different stat spread than Lute and Ewan. The two aren't quite identical, but "feel" relatively same-y when raised: Good to great Mag, good Spd, bad durability.
  • A more combat-orientated Shaman. I guess Ewan can do this, but he's only "half" a Shaman to begin with. A more Canas-like Shaman with more physical durability than the other magic users could've been interesting.

Fat Mage time? Fat Mage time.

One approach could be to give the player a pre-promoted Druid, with a higher Anima rank than Dark. This unit could also fill the "female Dark magic user" slot, while also getting good bulk stats. That said, I don't know WHO would fill this sort of role... maybe the Elder in Caer Palyn?

On 6/11/2022 at 8:39 AM, ping said:

A second Armour Knight. I get it, the class is terrible, but SacSto does offer it a decent promotion option in GK, and you have Gilliam and his slow butt as its only representive. I guess Amelia counts, but again, only half a Knight. ;): In a way, I almost wish that she'd join all Wendy-like as a Lv.1 Knight.

IMO this would just make Amelia worse. At least as a Recruit, she can get into a couple really good classes (Cavalier -> Paladin). Getting another Armor Knight could be interesting, but I'm not sure where they'd fit in. Maybe a Rausten Knight who's trying to catch up with L'arachel?

On 6/11/2022 at 8:39 AM, ping said:

A Pirate and/or Brigand. Ross has the former as his (imo) mechanically best path, but he feels much more like a Fighter->Warrior narratively - the Wade to Garcia's Lot, in a way.

That'd be neat! Especially a Brigand, since Gonzalez is the only playable one of the GBA era. Perhaps he could be an employee of Pablo, who defects after his boss is beaten?

15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

As to Niles and Nina, since that's about the only thing he's good for in my book, I am nice enough to at least allow him to see use until I unlock her paralogue.

Niles also offers an instant C-support to Nina (including +1 mov from Outlaw), so he's solid for that. And vice-versa: getting Nina can help Niles, too.

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Canas being the only real dark magic user in Blazing Blade certainly feels off. There should definitely be another either as a Shaman or as a prepromote (no Athos, you don't count). Binding Blade also doesnt have any tier 1 light magic users at all which feels super weird. And Sacred Stones I'm fully in the team of playing both routes per playthrough and bulking up Ephraim's cast (I think I'd like a other Archer, as, while the game isn't starved for bow users, its weird Neimi has exclusive access to the Orion's Bolt.

Fates,  I'm not sure why it's even part of the conversation while Awakening and Tellius aren't.

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Fat Mage time? Fat Mage time.

One approach could be to give the player a pre-promoted Druid, with a higher Anima rank than Dark. This unit could also fill the "female Dark magic user" slot, while also getting good bulk stats. That said, I don't know WHO would fill this sort of role... maybe the Elder in Caer Palyn?

In my hack to try and combine Sacred Stone's routes (It's bad, don't play it) I added an aged Kliff as a prepromote summoner, in Magvel research its monsters. As far as cameos go from other games I think her serves as a rather good one with his mild personality and already set up "mysteriously vanished" ending. And of games to cameo a Gaiden character in, Sacred Stones works best.

21 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Ranger pre-promote. Easy. But nomad really is designed for Elibe as a setting (or perhaps vice-versa), so that wouldn't really work.

I'd be down for an extra shaman and a brigand, though.

What about a tier 1 bow knight locked to bows and then a new bow based trainee that can promote to archer or horse archer? I feel that would kill a few birds with one stone...Okay It would kill my specific complaint of Neimi being the only recipient of the Orion's Bolt. It just bugs me!

On 6/11/2022 at 9:41 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Also playable Morva, so I can get him to say his signature crit quote: "It's Morvin' time!"

Jokes aside, Morva would be great as a Creature Campaign unit. Of course, just in general, creature campaign needs to be reworked to actually be something worth playing. He wouldn't be that great if you have to beat Lagdou Ruins six times to get him and all you can use him for us beating Lagdou Ruins.

Edited by Jotari
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On 6/11/2022 at 7:39 AM, ping said:
  • A second Armour Knight. I get it, the class is terrible, but SacSto does offer it a decent promotion option in GK, and you have Gilliam and his slow butt as its only representive. I guess Amelia counts, but again, only half a Knight. ;): In a way, I almost wish that she'd join all Wendy-like as a Lv.1 Knight.

Honestly, I would consider this to only make Amelia substantially worse, because Cavalier and Paladin are actually great classes, and having access to them makes training her up not completely suck. Great Knight... is just underwhelming and unappealing in comparison.

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Niles also offers an instant C-support to Nina (including +1 mov from Outlaw), so he's solid for that. And vice-versa: getting Nina can help Niles, too.

You must not have seen any of the results of when I tried to make Niles work. If you had, you'd understand why I've given up on him.

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Binding Blade also doesnt have any tier 1 light magic users at all which feels super weird.

Honestly, I'd say the near inaccessibility of light magic in that game is a big reason why Blazing Blade invented the monk class.

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On 6/11/2022 at 6:50 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Class is only one aspect of a unit, yes, I agree. Stats are also important, but not so much that they make up for being locked to a bad class.

What's so bad about his class?

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

What about a tier 1 bow knight locked to bows and then a new bow based trainee that can promote to archer or horse archer? I feel that would kill a few birds with one stone...Okay It would kill my specific complaint of Neimi being the only recipient of the Orion's Bolt. It just bugs me!

Seems a little bit excessive to me. The trainee classes are a weird gimmick for a single character, but at least they only made one class instead of two.

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You must not have seen any of the results of when I tried to make Niles work. If you had, you'd understand why I've given up on him.

Even 0% Niles can one-shot pegasus knights in chapter 10 and kill Ninja's with Effie's dual strike.

Like, is he that good? Not really, but is he that bad either?

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You must not have seen any of the results of when I tried to make Niles work. If you had, you'd understand why I've given up on him.

I mean, it's accurate to say that I'm not acquainted with your experience with Niles. But "I've never had a good experience with this unit, nor been able to make them work" doesn't equate to any objective measure of "this unit is bad".

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I'd say the near inaccessibility of light magic in that game is a big reason why Blazing Blade invented the monk class.

Shockingly enough, there are no Priests in FE7. They were replaced wholesale with Monks, with the only stafflocked classes being Cleric and Troubadour. It wasn't until Sacred Stones that Priests and Monks managed to coexist.

Anyway, the intuitive answer would be "Saul is now a Monk". Probably makes him worse, TBH.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

In my hack to try and combine Sacred Stone's routes (It's bad, don't play it) I added an aged Kliff as a prepromote summoner, in Magvel research its monsters. As far as cameos go from other games I think her serves as a rather good one with his mild personality and already set up "mysteriously vanished" ending. And of games to cameo a Gaiden character in, Sacred Stones works best.

It's an interesting approach, but I specified Druid because three Summoners (four, effectively, with Lyon) seems really overpowered. I generally prefer to avoid creating connections between broadly disjoint continents, but that's just me.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Jokes aside, Morva would be great as a Creature Campaign unit. Of course, just in general, creature campaign needs to be reworked to actually be something worth playing. He wouldn't be that great if you have to beat Lagdou Ruins six times to get him and all you can use him for us beating Lagdou Ruins.

That could be nice, especially if he came with an infinite-use Dragonstone (or if they just added a way to buy more of them). Maybe add a new "hyper-dungeon" that can only be accessed after getting all the bonus characters? Like the Ruins on steroids, but with some human enemies thrown in, and unique challenges (i.e. a Magic Seal, stat debuffs, fatigue) thrown in. This could tie in with my own idea for Magvellian overclasses.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Canas being the only real dark magic user in Blazing Blade certainly feels off. There should definitely be another either as a Shaman or as a prepromote (no Athos, you don't count). Binding Blade also doesnt have any tier 1 light magic users at all which feels super weird. And Sacred Stones I'm fully in the team of playing both routes per playthrough and bulking up Ephraim's cast (I think I'd like a other Archer, as, while the game isn't starved for bow users, its weird Neimi has exclusive access to the Orion's Bolt.

An FE8 remake could make promotions item-dependent. Like, a Hero Crest makes Garcia a Warrior, while an Orion's Bolt turns him into a Warrior. In this case, Neimi, Ross, Garcia, and Gerik would all have a use for it.

Still, a second Archer could be nice, especially since Neimi is your sole bow user on Ephraim's story between chapters 3 and 14 (outside the aforementioned promotions).

I don't see a real lore fit for another Dark Mage in FE7. They could make Sophia playable, but she shows up barely before Athos. And given her canonical bases 20 years later, she would absolutely suck.

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2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

What's so bad about his class?

Seems a little bit excessive to me. The trainee classes are a weird gimmick for a single character, but at least they only made one class instead of two.

Not quite sure what you mean. There are three Trainee classes. And the things they can promote into are things that generally already existed in Fire Emblem, cavaliers, knights, druids and the like, which a tier 1 bow locked unit would be too. True there are some new classes in Sacred Stones, but that's a result of the branching class idea in general rather than the Trainees. Though now that I think of it, if we were to have legally-distinct-for-aesthetic-reasons-Nomads in Sacred Stones, you'd need to have a second class for them to promote into other than bow knight. To which I say, hell yeah, give me Kinshi knights! Especially if you can get one before the demon ship.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

It's an interesting approach, but I specified Druid because three Summoners (four, effectively, with Lyon) seems really overpowered. I generally prefer to avoid creating connections between broadly disjoint continents, but that's just me.\

And yet, despite that, the only base summoner character in the series is the unplayable Izuka. And he's not even in Sacred Stones!

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That could be nice, especially if he came with an infinite-use Dragonstone (or if they just added a way to buy more of them). Maybe add a new "hyper-dungeon" that can only be accessed after getting all the bonus characters? Like the Ruins on steroids, but with some human enemies thrown in, and unique challenges (i.e. a Magic Seal, stat debuffs, fatigue) thrown in. This could tie in with my own idea for Magvellian overclasses.

Alright, I'll bite. Share ideas for Magvellian overclasses. Doesn't necessairly need to be here.

2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't see a real lore fit for another Dark Mage in FE7. They could make Sophia playable, but she shows up barely before Athos. And given her canonical bases 20 years later, she would absolutely suck.

Well that's the least troublesome thing. Just make up a new character. "Hey Eliwood, this is Jacque the mercenary offering to fight if you give him X amount of gold. He likes elder magic that threatens to tear apart his soul as well as long walks on the beach. Seriously he's really into walking. You could say it's his whole character gimmick." Either that or just make Niime playable (god damn it, we're talking about Niime and Neimi at the same time again).

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2 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anyway, the intuitive answer would be "Saul is now a Monk". Probably makes him worse, TBH.

Hmm...

Staffers are always useful b/c healing is great utility. And thankfully, BB isn't like Thracia, the non-healing staffs aren't that useful (LTCs will venerate Warp even so). Saul could lose value nonetheless having to compete with over a dozen attackers when he joins instead of 2 other early staffbots.

But, let's keep Saul's bases, growths, and promotion bonuses exactly the same and make him a Monk anyhow. For the sake of a hypothetical.

  • Saul's bases:
    • Lvl 5 HP 20 Mag 4 Skl 6 Spd 10 Luck 2 Def 2 Res 5 Con 6 Staffs C
  • Light Magic
    • Let's swap Saul's Staff rank for... E tomes? Lightning is E. But is it too low? FE6 has low WEXP gain. Let's go with D Light, as Lugh the first Mage starts with D Anima. Or even C, since Lilina comes with that.
      • -Note, there are no D or B Light tomes. Let's add FEs 7's & 8's Shine for D, lower Purge to B, and add Aura for A.
      • For the weapon stats, Lightning lost 1 Mt and became 5 in FE7. Let's keep Lightning at 5 and all the other stats true to their FE6 values. We can give Shine 6 Mt, leave Divine at 8, and let Aura be FE7's 12.

Lugh's bases for comparison:

  • Lvl 1 HP 16 Mag 4 Skl 5 Spd 6 Lck 5 Def 3 Res 5

Brought up to level 5, Lugh still has -2 HP, +1.6 Mag +1 Skl -2 Spd +4.4 Lck,  +1.6 Def, +0.9 Res.

So, Monk!Saul at base is comparable to Lugh to start.

  • +2 Spd is good for Saul (Con is a total joke for both of them, FE6 tomes are super lightweight), it might let him nab an earlygame double Lugh could not.
  • Lugh however, benefits from Thunder having +1 Mt over Lightning (but the same as a hypothetical FE6 Shine), and an extra point of Mag. +2 damage, 4 on a double.
  • Lugh extra Skl and Lck amount to +6 Hit, and Fire has 95 Hit to Lightning's 75, while Thunder is 80. +10-25 Hit could be a big deal in FE6, a game notorious for less mind-numbingly surefire hit rates.

Now let's jump ahead to 15/0 averages for Saul and Lugh:

  • Saul-
    • HP 26 Mag 8 Skl 10.5 Spd 14.5 Lck 3.5 Def 3.5 Res 10
  • Lugh-
    • HP 23 Mag 9.6 Skl 12 Spd 13 Lck 9.9 Def 5.1 Res 9.2

Alright, the two have near-identical concrete durability. Lugh is a tad better at dodging with significantly higher Lck, which is also making him a bit more accurate atop the aforementioned weapon differences. For offense, Saul is still lagging on the Mag a little, yet retains a slight Spd lead. Lugh is gradually growing the Mag and closing the Spd gaps however.

20/5 time.:

  • Saul-
    • HP 34.4 Mag 14.6 Skl 17.55 Spd 20.55 Lck 4.85 Def 6.85 Res 17.5
  • Lugh-
    • HP 31.5 Mag 17.2 Skl 18.5 Spd 18.5 Lck 13.05 Def 8.45 Res 13.9

Promotion hasn't changed things significantly. The same differences endure.

  • Saul has grown his Res lead, but ouch Lugh is nearly 3 points ahead on Mag.
  • By this point, our magical men should've fought some Wyvern Riders, with Lugh having gained access to Aircalibur starting in Chapter 14.
    • Aircalibur has flying effectiveness, this makes it +16 Mt compared to the same 8 Mt Divine against flying enemies.
  • Raigh could try Nostanking (buy two dozen of these in Chapter 14, it's the only Brunya battle that sells them) if he somehow got enough levels to promote. Nosferatu isn't laughably heavy in FE6 (6 Wt, it's underweight, though iffy with Hit at 70), and 32 HP, 21 Mag, 17 Skl, 15 Spd, 7 Lck, and 8 Def seems feasible -if not perfect- for the job.
  • Saul gets nothing to compete with Wind Sword & Vampire!
    • Well, not quite nothing. Monk > Bishop ought to reward him with C Staffs according to FEs 7 & 8. Raigh and Lugh are stuck with E Staffs.
    • Unfortunately, FE6 gives only 1 WEXP per staff use, while FEs 7 & 8 give double that for Heal and yet more for other things. Saul needs 50 staff uses to hit B for Physics access. Lucius needs only half that.
      • Still, Physics isn't impossible for Saul to reach in time for it be useful if you try for it. You can buy it in 18 Sacae or 19 Ilia at the earliest.
    • Saul's non-Luck stats are better than Cecilia's, yet she has a horse for extra mobility and the same C Staffs. Aircalibur thankfully isn't enough to give her superior anti-flier offense if she can't double with her, which 14.75 Spd at 20/20 seemingly assures, and does assure Saul is certainly better against non-fliers. (Cecilia's Mag average peaks at 17.65 and she starts at 11 to get her out of the way.)

Let's end things and go straight to 20/20.:

  • Saul-
    • HP 43.4 Mag 20.6 Skl 24.3 Spd 25 Lck 7.1 Def 9.1 Res 25
  • Lugh-
    • HP 39 Mag 23.2 Skl 26 Spd 25 Lck 18.3 Def 10.7 Res 18.4

Saul capped Spd at 20/15, Lugh capped Spd at 20/18, BTW.

What does this mean?

  • Lugh failed to slingshot his Magic far ahead from Saul, because they have the same 40% growth actually. Doesn't negate the +2~3x2 damage lead or the power of Aircalibur.
  • The dodging lead is now 11 points, slightly higher than the ~9 points of 20/5. 9-11 Avoid isn't insignificant in the 2RN system Binding Blade invented.
    • This is also a +15 Hit lead. Not that I expect accuracy to be as big a deal in Binding Blade's lategame, barring Sacae.
  • Concrete durability is once more near identical, barring a slightly bigger Res lead than before for Saul of ~7 points.

Raigh, Joder, and Niime for more 20/20 comparisons:

  • Raigh-
    • HP 40.85 Mag 28.15 Skl 24 Spd 21.8 Lack 10.05 Def 11.05 Res 21.45
  • Joder
    • HP 35 Mag 19 Skl 18 Spd 14 Lck 11 Def 5 Res 30
  • Niime
    • HP 25.5 Mag 21.3 Skl 20.3 Spd 16.3 Lck 15.1 Def 5.3 Res 18.4

Raigh remains a powerful Nostank option, and hits harder in general too. Joder has better Res and Mag that isn't that far behind, but yowza that Spd difference! Niime paints a similar picture. Although Joder can pop the Saint's Staff while Saul won't be able to, and Niime can possibly Nostank with a couple Angelic Robes bought from the first Secret Shop.

I've left out Sophia and Lilina because they're stronger and slower than Saul, they won't compare so readily. Sophia is also very bad, and Hugh joins so late and yet only average statistically despite the financial cost that I didn't bother to compare him either. Monk!Saul on availability alone could likely trounce Hugh. Elen and Clarine are not in direct competition with Monk!Saul after promotion, so I excluded them.

In conclusion- Monk!Saul for the entire game would be a less: evasive, accurate, and crit-protected, and slightly less powerful, Lugh, if a tad faster. 

Saul after promotion would have a chance to bloom into a lategame Physics user after some staff spam, getting non-combat utility to compete with Lugh's superior Aircalibur vs. fliers offense and Raigh's Nostanking. Cecilia advantages vs. Monk!Saul would be a horse, higher Move, and no investment. In the endgame, Saul wouldn't render Niime or Joder obsolete, but he would have a better offense due to his Spd lead.

I'd probably stick to Lugh, but if the RNG was cursing the banana boy on that playthrough, I'd jump over to Monk!Saul if I still wanted a fast spellslinger

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5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Shockingly enough, there are no Priests in FE7. They were replaced wholesale with Monks, with the only stafflocked classes being Cleric and Troubadour. It wasn't until Sacred Stones that Priests and Monks managed to coexist.

Yeah, that's something weird in and of itself.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

An FE8 remake could make promotions item-dependent. Like, a Hero Crest makes Garcia a Warrior, while an Orion's Bolt turns him into a Warrior. In this case, Neimi, Ross, Garcia, and Gerik would all have a use for it.

I'm not sure I would support this idea; it'd already be a pretty big step backwards to go back to individual promotion items.

5 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

What's so bad about his class?

The part where it combines two things I have a low opinion of-axe infantry and hybrid classes (to this day, I think Robin, Corrin and their respective children are the only characters to actually make hybrid classes work). It's hard enough for me to justify using either, so of course I'm going to treat a combination of both as hot garbage. Also, the Oni class tree skills are mostly pretty bleh (Seal Resistance is niche, as is Shove. Death Blow is once a turn, and this isn't the FEH/FE3H version of Death Blow that increases damage dealt on initiation, but the one that gives extra crit when initiating combat. Counter is just bad. Salvage Blow is practically a wasted skill slot; a chance to get iron versions of Hoshidan weapons when killing enemies isn't that appealing to me, especially in Conquest. Which just leaves Lancebreaker as the only worthwhile skill out of the 6 it has to offer). It doesn't help that Oni Chieftain stinks of "Master of None" - a recurring problem hybrid classes suffer from, and thus a big reason why I have a low opinion of hybrid classes. I just have no clue what the hell they were thinking when they came up with it, as it seems like they were trying to make it able to do a lot of things, but that only made it inferior to other classes that could do what it tries to do, but do it better. 

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I mean, it's accurate to say that I'm not acquainted with your experience with Niles. But "I've never had a good experience with this unit, nor been able to make them work" doesn't equate to any objective measure of "this unit is bad".

That's a fair point, but indeed, characters that people hyped up underdelivering when I try to use them for myself is a HUGE reason why I am so cynical and unwilling to take others' word at face value when they say X is a good unit.

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6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Anyway, the intuitive answer would be "Saul is now a Monk". Probably makes him worse, TBH.

Definitely makes him worse. It'd be kind of weird for a remake to essentially strip you of a unit (Saul as a Priest), even if they replaced them (Saul as a Monk). I don't like that kind of thing, because it basically tells people who liked or used or planned around the original unit to get lost.

You could add Heart Seals, and give Saul the Monk reclass option. Also available to, uh...

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

An FE8 remake could make promotions item-dependent. Like, a Hero Crest makes Garcia a Warrior, while an Orion's Bolt turns him into a Warrior. In this case, Neimi, Ross, Garcia, and Gerik would all have a use for it.

Aw yeah, I can have Garcia as a warrior or a warrior! That's awesome!

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Not quite sure what you mean. There are three Trainee classes.

By "they only made one class instead of two, I mean that each trainee promotes into pre-existing classes. Only one class has to be created for each trainee. By re-adding nomads to Sacred Stones for the bow trainee, you have to add two classes basically for one character.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Though now that I think of it, if we were to have legally-distinct-for-aesthetic-reasons-Nomads in Sacred Stones, you'd need to have a second class for them to promote into other than bow knight. To which I say, hell yeah, give me Kinshi knights! Especially if you can get one before the demon ship.

Make that three classes.

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well that's the least troublesome thing. Just make up a new character. "Hey Eliwood, this is Jacque the mercenary offering to fight if you give him X amount of gold. He likes elder magic that threatens to tear apart his soul as well as long walks on the beach. Seriously he's really into walking. You could say it's his whole character gimmick." Either that or just make Niime playable (god damn it, we're talking about Niime and Neimi at the same time again).

Gonna be honest, I'm kind of invested in this Jacque guy now.

"I love to take long walks on mountains, too. Sometimes I'll take my lantern and spend the whole night walking, looking for the darkest patch of sky, and stare into that heavenly abyss. The abyss tells me ancient secrets. It stares back."

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

In conclusion

Sure, that's some cool math, but the fundamental issue is that staffbot > not a staffbot.

31 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The part where it combines two things I have a low opinion of-axe infantry and hybrid classes (to this day, I think Robin, Corrin and their respective children are the only characters to actually make hybrid classes work). It's hard enough for me to justify using either, so of course I'm going to treat a combination of both as hot garbage.

It doesn't help that Oni Chieftain stinks of "Master of None" - a recurring problem hybrid classes suffer from, and thus a big reason why I have a low opinion of hybrid classes. I just have no clue what the hell they were thinking when they came up with it, as it seems like they were trying to make it able to do a lot of things, but that only made it inferior to other classes that could do what it tries to do, but do it better.

Huh. I thought you were gonna say, like, it's not a flying class or something.

Sure, that might be an issue of Oni Chieftain's generally or as a concept (which basically means Rinkah), but Kumagera is actually really good at tanking and dealing physical damage.

31 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Seal Resistance is niche, as is Shove.

Shove niche? Low-tier player detected. Shove is one of the strongest skills in Fates, I would actually say it's better than Lancebreaker. It's not as fancy, but the practical applications of giving +1 movement to any unit you want each turn, ignoring terrain for that one movement, is pretty slick. No longer must an enemy taunt you from just out of range.

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