Wyvern Elise

[Frug]

Holy cow.  I just started another Lunatic Conquest playthrough and decided to give Wyvern Elise another go.  Since the last time I tried it was over a year ago, I was a little hazy on the overall strategy.  I remembered liking it, but I didn't remember why.  Now I realize that it is super effective and a great way to use Elise other than as a staff-bot (which you already have before she even joins).  

The plan is simple: Get Elise enough EXP in chapter 7 to almost level up, but don't actually let her ding.  Once she is there, don't let her heal.  After letting Arthur solo the whole map (like the absolute king that you are), build the staff shop and heart seal her to wyvern.

At the start of chapter 8, you can get her those last ~5 EXP so she can level up.  Once she does, she'll unlock Strength +2 from Wyvern rider.  Between that and her class bases, she'll actually have enough strength to do some decent chip damage in dual strikes, which is huge for her axe rank.

Now she is much more durable with the Wyvern defense bases in combination with her already high Res.  Her HP could be higher, but it isn't anything tonics couldn't fix, and I personally like giving her a Seraph robe as well.  With her added bulk and mobility, she can more easily position herself for dual strikes and Lily's Poise, which is an insanely strong personal skill that will add a lot to your army's durability.  

Raise her axe rank enough, and she'll be able to use the bolt axe.  Her bases may have been shifted, but Elise is still Elise, and by the time you get the bolt axe around chapter 13, her insane magic growth will have raised her magic by a ton.  The bolt axe will end up being one of her main weapons, and she can do some serious damage with it.

After or before that, you can promote Elise as well.  As funny as it would be, Elise isn't going Wyvern Lord.  Instead, she can go Malig Knight for tome access for higher accuracy magic weapons, as well as some insanely good skills in the form of Savage Blow and Trample.

I hope this little expose helps you unlock Elise's full potential not from atop a stuffy ornamented horse, but from the back of a ferocious reptile.  Enjoy your new favorite Unit!

[TheChoZenOne]

This sounds fun!! Haha. I always loved making mage/healer type units into Wyverns 🤣 Gotta try this out next time!!

[Shadow Mir]

I'ma be honest - I've seen a lot of hype for this in the past. However, I never bought into the hype back then, and I am not about to be suckered into buying into the hype now. Of course, part of this has to do with the fact that my opinion of hybrid classes in general is very, very low; it's a tough sell to justify going the hybrid route when most units do not have the stats to justify it, of which Elise is definitely not an exception. If you only have good strength or good magic, you're just gimping yourself by taking that route. Case in point: Camilla, who improves by leaps and bounds as a Wyvern Lord. Also, I don't know about you, but ya ask me, 3 base skill with axes is just asking for trouble.

13 hours ago, Frug said:

After letting Arthur solo the whole map (like the absolute king that you are), build the staff shop and heart seal her to wyvern.

Why the hell should Arthur solo the whole map? That's about as smart as robbing a police station.

[Frug]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'ma be honest - I've seen a lot of hype for this in the past. However, I never bought into the hype back then, and I am not about to be suckered into buying into the hype now. Of course, part of this has to do with the fact that my opinion of hybrid classes in general is very, very low; it's a tough sell to justify going the hybrid route when most units do not have the stats to justify it, of which Elise is definitely not an exception. If you only have good strength or good magic, you're just gimping yourself by taking that route. Case in point: Camilla, who improves by leaps and bounds as a Wyvern Lord. Also, I don't know about you, but ya ask me, 3 base skill with axes is just asking for trouble.

Why the hell should Arthur solo the whole map? That's about as smart as robbing a police station.

The Arthur line is a joke.  I understand how it might have been confusing or out of place in an otherwise sarcasm-free post.

Elise wants the flight and durability to more easily apply Lily’s Poise and support bonuses.

I agree that hybrid classes are usually lackluster, but Elise doesn’t have an alternative magic class with flight.

You lose staff access for much more mobility, better resilience, more convenient support, and later a unit that can one round a lot of enemies with bolt axe (a weapon that is not in high demand) and later more accurate fire tomes.

Plus it makes pairing people with her a lot less frustrating since she now adds to her partner’s mobility.

as far as accuracy, a bronze axe has 85 ACC, which isn’t great, but it is enough to hit things semi-consistently with WTA or supports, especially in the Hybrid RN system.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Frug said:

The Arthur line is a joke.  I understand how it might have been confusing or out of place in an otherwise sarcasm-free post.

Yeah, it clearly felt out of place there.

5 hours ago, Frug said:

Elise wants the flight and durability to more easily apply Lily’s Poise and support bonuses.

I agree that hybrid classes are usually lackluster, but Elise doesn’t have an alternative magic class with flight.

You lose staff access for much more mobility, better resilience, more convenient support, and later a unit that can one round a lot of enemies with bolt axe (a weapon that is not in high demand) and later more accurate fire tomes.

Plus it makes pairing people with her a lot less frustrating since she now adds to her partner’s mobility.

as far as accuracy, a bronze axe has 85 ACC, which isn’t great, but it is enough to hit things semi-consistently with WTA or supports, especially in the Hybrid RN system.

The logic here seems to be this; I dilute her strengths to patch up (one of) her weaknesses (poorly, at that, while making another even worse). I am not sure that is a wise move...

There is Dark Falcon, but it's DLC, which admittedly, not everyone has or is willing to use.

It's not about what I lose or gain, but rather that I am not convinced that the benefits are enough to offset the costs, especially considering heart seals are limited for most of the game. Also, the bolt axe is not very accurate, and Elise isn't known for having good skill. Yeah... this sounds more like the only thing I am doing with this is setting myself up for disappointment, something I know all about, as I already have had bad experiences with something that got a lot of hype from others underdelivering when I actually tried it out for myself. Needless to say, that only made me reluctant to take others' word at face value. Also, I disagree with Savage Blow being "insanely useful" - honestly, I think it's one of those skills that's made more for enemies than the player.

A bronze axe has 80 hit, not 85.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[AnonymousSpeed]

21 hours ago, Frug said:

After letting Arthur solo the whole map (like the absolute king that you are)

You bet your Great Justice I do that, fellow king.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

It's not about what I lose or gain, but rather that I am not convinced that the benefits are enough to offset the costs, especially considering heart seals are limited for most of the game.

Cost-benefit analysis is about losing and gaining. That's what the costs and benefits are.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

The logic here seems to be this; I dilute her strengths to patch up (one of) her weaknesses (poorly, at that, while making another even worse). I am not sure that is a wise move...

Staffbots are cool, but you don't really need much to be a staffbot. All you really need is a staff rank and you can use Rescue, so you're pretty much set there.

Probably the best thing about Wyvern Elise is that she can attack. Healing staves are cool and all, but if you have an offensive strategy or want to use a bunch of dual-strikes, it's not super helpful. Action economy is actually pretty important in Conquest, and having flying mobility and better pair-up bonuses certainly helps. You can replace Elise as a healer with a wide assortment of generics.

[Frug]

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The logic here seems to be this; I dilute her strengths to patch up (one of) her weaknesses (poorly, at that, while making another even worse). I am not sure that is a wise move...

I think you should use specifics here because I have no earthly idea what weakness is being made worse.  The defense and offense she gains with this strategy is not poor or unsubstantial.  She goes from a unit that gets one rounded by many (and I mean many) enemies to one with slightly above average bulk, especially considering her great resistance.  On maps with hybrid damage like chapter 8, this comes in handy.  The only strength you are losing is staves, which is not something she does any better than any old generic you can recruit for free with Niles.  
 

 

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

17 hours ago, Frug said:

The Arthur line is a joke.  I understand how it might have been confusing or out of place in an otherwise sarcasm-free post.

Yeah, it clearly felt out of place there

 

I actually changed my mind about this line.  I have parenthetical in the joke that says

 

On 6/12/2022 at 3:42 AM, Frug said:

(like the absolute king that you are)

It is so obviously a joke that I can only assume you were pretending to not realize as some sort of bad-faith addition to your argument.

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

There is Dark Falcon, but it's DLC, which admittedly, not everyone has or is willing to use.

I never consider DLC in strategic discussions about Conquest.  I think they can be fun, but not for arguing unit viability in a serious setting.

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, I disagree with Savage Blow being "insanely useful" - honestly, I think it's one of those skills that's made more for enemies than the player.

 

Mentioning Savage Blow was a typo.  I meant to put lunge, which is an insanely good skill.  In either case, you are getting two great skills in Lunge and Trample and a decent skill in Savage Blow.

 

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Needless to say, that only made me reluctant to take others' word at face value.

This is not “my word at face value.”  I have been consistently backing up my claims with evidence and reasoning.  Your response has a whole lot of fluff but no real counterpoint other than “I disagree” with no actual argument to back it up.  Considering you’ve never even tried the strategy, don’t you think you should try constructing a real argument?

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/13/2022 at 1:26 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Cost-benefit analysis is about losing and gaining. That's what the costs and benefits are.

That's a fair analysis, but I cannot enjoy the upside when the downside is bigger. To stay on the topic of Fates, there's the "Great" Club. Among Fates's many weapons, this is one I've actively mocked and snarked at, for good reason. The thing is laughably inaccurate with only 45 base hit, and it also lowers the user's crit evade. That's two big downsides, and its only redeeming feature is an astounding 55 crit, which is not enough to make up for those downsides. Especially when other weapons have high crit without any crippling downsides.

On 6/13/2022 at 1:26 AM, AnonymousSpeed said:

Staffbots are cool, but you don't really need much to be a staffbot. All you really need is a staff rank and you can use Rescue, so you're pretty much set there.

Probably the best thing about Wyvern Elise is that she can attack. Healing staves are cool and all, but if you have an offensive strategy or want to use a bunch of dual-strikes, it's not super helpful. Action economy is actually pretty important in Conquest, and having flying mobility and better pair-up bonuses certainly helps. You can replace Elise as a healer with a wide assortment of generics.

It isn't about losing a staffer. It's got everything to do with making Elise a terrible combat unit; her being able to attack is not an improvement if she's terrible at it. Poor skill and axes are a match made in hell, and yet that is exactly what's being proposed here. This reeks of shooting myself in the foot for no meaningful gain. If you're masochistic enough to put up with Wyvern Elise being a liability until promotion, then more power to you, but I am not into torturing myself like that.

On 6/13/2022 at 12:42 PM, Frug said:

I think you should use specifics here because I have no earthly idea what weakness is being made worse.  The defense and offense she gains with this strategy is not poor or unsubstantial.  She goes from a unit that gets one rounded by many (and I mean many) enemies to one with slightly above average bulk, especially considering her great resistance. On maps with hybrid damage like chapter 8, this comes in handy.  The only strength you are losing is staves, which is not something she does any better than any old generic you can recruit for free with Niles.  

From a statistical perspective, she's got good magic, resistance, speed and luck, whereas she has poor HP, strength, defense, and skill. Wyvern Rider's stat leanings (high strength, defense, and low resistance) do not gel with Elise's own. That's a red flag in my book; how often does a unit actually manage to avoid sucking when they're in a class that is the exact opposite of their initial class and their growths in just about every way??? In particular, Wyvern Elise's 3 base skill is just bad, and combining that with axes, the most inaccurate weapon type, means she's going to miss more than Star Wars' stormtroopers. It ain't like the damage she does is gonna make up for it either... at least without the Bolt Axe, which is not very accurate. If I'm going to use a limited resource like a Heart Seal, I want the result to not actively make my team worse, which I fear is the case here, because this is only sabotaging myself. What's more, she isn't "one-rounded by many, many enemies", because that implies she's getting doubled often. One-shotted, maybe, but that's a different thing entirely. While it is true that I could just get a generic healer to replace Elise if I do this, that means I'm not fielding a story character, which are infinitely superior, instead (which is why my opinion of capture, and by extension Niles is so damn low; it just gets me worse versions of units I get just by progressing in the goddamn game). And that makes my team worse, all for the same of something I can only call a gimmick. A generic healer would only be useful in chapter 12 (which renders Elise unusable), to be honest.

On 6/13/2022 at 12:42 PM, Frug said:

I never consider DLC in strategic discussions about Conquest.  I think they can be fun, but not for arguing unit viability in a serious setting.

Fair point. Which is why I didn't say any more on the subject.

On 6/13/2022 at 12:42 PM, Frug said:

Mentioning Savage Blow was a typo.  I meant to put lunge, which is an insanely good skill.  In either case, you are getting two great skills in Lunge and Trample and a decent skill in Savage Blow.

Lunge is useful, but Elise is the exact wrong type of unit to use it. Also, while Trample is good, I don't really care enough to be bothered to consider detouring to Malig Knight for it. Or at all, really. Also, because it's a level 15 skill, most units (read: everyone but Felicia or Jakob) don't get to enjoy it for very long, if at all.

On 6/13/2022 at 12:42 PM, Frug said:

This is not “my word at face value.”  I have been consistently backing up my claims with evidence and reasoning.  Your response has a whole lot of fluff but no real counterpoint other than “I disagree” with no actual argument to back it up.  Considering you’ve never even tried the strategy, don’t you think you should try constructing a real argument?

Okay, but from my perspective, I consider it rather concerning - and telling - that I have only seen Wyvern Elise work ONCE. And it was on a modded run where balance was tossed out the window completely. That is NOT inspiring any confidence that this is anything other than an Arcana Force-level gimmick.

[deskita]

I feel like one benefit of Malig Knight Elise which isn't really being mentioned is her access to two parts of the weapon triangle, as it helps her out quite a bit both with accuracy and durability-wise. Which alongside the defense boost of being in that class compared to Strategist makes her taking a hit or two quite safe.

[Shadow Mir]

21 hours ago, deskita said:

I feel like one benefit of Malig Knight Elise which isn't really being mentioned is her access to two parts of the weapon triangle, as it helps her out quite a bit both with accuracy and durability-wise. Which alongside the defense boost of being in that class compared to Strategist makes her taking a hit or two quite safe.

In my humble opinion, that isn't something I'd consider very helpful when both of those weapons run off different stats (unless you use the Bolt Axe, which is pretty inaccurate, and I'd rather not give an inaccurate weapon to someone like Elise, who has low skill; that's just asking for trouble).