Ignatz is secretly one of the most OP units.

[SearchingForGryphons]

I am sorry if this is well known at this point, haven't visited these forums in awhile and last I saw Ignatz was considered very weak.

I discovered this strategy accidentally in my maddening playthrough and figured I'd share it in case it wasn't well known.

Step 1 - make Ignatz an Assasain. Step 2 - give Ignatz the battalion with Impregnable Wall.

This means that you can place him in the middle of the enemy army, use Impregnable Wall on an ally, and just watch as the entire enemy army avoids the squishy Assassin to deal one damage to someone else instead.

Technically anyone can do this, but since Authority, Bow, and Sword are all strengths of Ignatz that means he can get into this OP build very easily, just wanted to share.

[LoneStar]

Darn where were you to give @TheChoZenOne this advice?

It's sounds like good tech, but I wouldn't call it OP, unless this Ignatz or whoever can be a really good in the player phase.

Ignatz is definitely good for the Authority rank if nothing else. He can also get the A rank Retribution battalion fairly quick as well.

[SearchingForGryphons]

45 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

It's sounds like good tech, but I wouldn't call it OP, unless this Ignatz or whoever can be a really good in the player phase.

Fair enough, the only reason I consider it somewhat OP is because it takes almost zero effort from the player to make full use of this, Ignatz doesn't even have to be high level, mostly just fed enough exp to get to Assassin. He's using most of his Player Phase actions on using the gambit (it has 5 uses) so even if he was a good attacker (unlikely) it would just be the cherry on top.

[Whitfield1999]

I mean he probably isn't the most broken character in the game, but I remember one video of ignatz soloing a level with with a broken bow lol.

[TheChoZenOne]

9 hours ago, LoneStar said:

Darn where were you to give @TheChoZenOne this advice?

It's sounds like good tech, but I wouldn't call it OP, unless this Ignatz or whoever can be a really good in the player phase.

Ignatz is definitely good for the Authority rank if nothing else. He can also get the A rank Retribution battalion fairly quick as well.

Huh? Lol I honestly don't know what this even means. I personally feel there is better ways to make use of Ignatz, and mine had impregnable wall. I'm trying to understand this strategy tbh 🤣 I love Ignatz and fall under the category of people who think he is VERY good

Edited June 13, 2022 by TheChoZenOne

[SearchingForGryphons]

1 hour ago, TheChoZenOne said:

Huh? Lol I honestly don't know what this even means. I personally feel there is better ways to make use of Ignatz, and mine had impregnable wall. I'm trying to understand this strategy tbh 🤣 I love Ignatz and fall under the category of people who think he is VERY good

Basically Impregnable Wall plus Assassin is very good because of the stealth skill, and will probably be a go to of mine in the future.

The reason Ignatz specifically is because he can get the ranks needed very quickly, meaning you can more easily focus resources into frontliners and supports who need more help.

I'm sure there are builds for him that make him stronger, but as a support he is very useful because of having the perfect strengths to go into an Assassin Impregnable Wall build... I feel like a lot of people probably bench him or dump dancer on him (if they are using dancer to, well, dance) so I figured I'd share an alt build that takes little effort.

2 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

I mean he probably isn't the most broken character in the game, but I remember one video of ignatz soloing a level with with a broken bow lol.

Oh no, this game has Lysithia, Felix, and the lords lol. I'd rank Ignatz close behind though (bottom of S tier most likely).

[TheChoZenOne]

10 minutes ago, SearchingForGryphons said:

Basically Impregnable Wall plus Assassin is very good because of the stealth skill, and will probably be a go to of mine in the future.

The reason Ignatz specifically is because he can get the ranks needed very quickly, meaning you can more easily focus resources into frontliners and supports who need more help.

I'm sure there are builds for him that make him stronger, but as a support he is very useful because of having the perfect strengths to go into an Assassin Impregnable Wall build... I feel like a lot of people probably bench him or dump dancer on him (if they are using dancer to, well, dance) so I figured I'd share an alt build that takes little effort.

Oh no, this game has Lysithia, Felix, and the lords lol. I'd rank Ignatz close behind though (bottom of S tier most likely).

Yeah over time I figured it out. That actually is pretty cool. Nice strat. Assassin Ignatz sounds cool tbh, I might want to try that just in general haha 😆

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't recall ever using more than one assassin so I haven't seen for myself how effective Stealth is. But if you just threw Ignatz into a crowd of enemies alone, they would target him simply because he's the only target in range, right? And Impregnable wall isn't any less effective when used by a unit that's behind your army rather than in front. Sounds like you're more impressed with the gambit than anything. 

Ignatz as an assassin is a fairly compelling idea. Dude shares the highest dex + luck in the game with Shamir and Cyril. So that means the highest lethality and critical hit rates to cover for his low strength. His speed can also match enemy swordies on Maddening when you're putting him in a class that boosts it by +5 naturally. But I don't think an assassin's combat compares to the consistency of Hunter's Volley. And even if Hunter's Volley fails to kill, the sniper class is several spaces away from danger with less need of healing or reposition after combat. Assassin can be good on a great unit, but Sniper makes any unit into a great unit.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[SearchingForGryphons]

4 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I don't recall ever using more than one assassin so I haven't seen for myself how effective Stealth is. But if you just threw Ignatz into a crowd of enemies alone, they would target him simply because he's the only target in range, right? And Impregnable wall isn't any less effective when used by a unit that's behind your army rather than in front. Sounds like you're more impressed with the gambit than anything. 

Ignatz as an assassin is a fairly compelling idea. Dude shares the highest dex + luck in the game with Shamir and Cyril. So that means the highest lethality and critical hit rates to cover for his low strength. His speed can also match enemy swordies on Maddening when you're putting him in a class that boosts it by +5 naturally. But I don't think an assassin's combat compares to the consistency of Hunter's Volley. And even if Hunter's Volley fails to kill, the sniper class is several spaces away from danger with less need of healing or reposition after combat. Assassin can be good on a great unit, but Sniper makes any unit into a great unit.

I do agree Sniper is an amazing class. And yes, Ignatz on his own WILL die, but stick even a low level unit next to him and they can tank just about anything for quite awhile.

As for your comment on the gambit, the point where an Assassin Impregnable Wall user outshine everyone else is on open maps. I didn't realize how Stealth worked until very late, so I only actually used this tactic twice, but in two pretty ridiculous examples.

The first was the infamous chapter 13. I would have been very stuck without this strat, because there were too many unit for Ignatz and Lorenz to handle on their own. But since I could gambit Lorenz, they were basically Invincible until people could show up to help.

I finally realized how Stealth worked right before the final chapter, and let me tell you, the nonsense you can pull with Stealth Impregnable Wall far outshines the gambit on it's own. I sent the bulk of my army around the edges of the map, but sent a small team of my biggest attackers and best supports right down the middle of the enemy army where there was nowhere to hide a non Stealth unit.

I believe my strike team consisted of the powerful Sniper Shamir and Gremory Lysithia, my Dancer, a healer to combat the poison, and finally Ignatz who made it so that I couldn't be punished for surrounding my units with the enemy army.

Now, granted, VW is the easiest final chapter imo (since you can turtle it), and it's not as OP as a Retribution Dimitri or the like, but I still think it's a very good build nonetheless. 

[lenticular]

On the Assassin/Impregnable Wall combo: sure, I can see how this can be used very effectively to not die. (Although I assume there would still be problems facing more than a few units at once, since if the wall got fully surrounded, then units who couldn't reach the wall would then start going after the Assassin.) But I'm not really understanding what this actually accomplishes. The Assassin has to use their turn to apply the gambit, and the wall isn't going to be doing any (meaningful) damage while the gambit is applied. So I'm not sure how this is really helping you to get kills or complete objectives, in most cases. I guess you could send the pair off on their own to grab a chest or secondary objective sometimes? But I'd consider that more of a neat trick than being secretly OP. I'm also not sure how effective they could be at drawing aggro. If there's any other friendly unit in range, then they become a potential target instead of the wall. And if there are more than four enemely melee units, then there's the problem of getting surrounded. I'm just not seeing this; how are you using the combo?

On Ignatz as being best suited for this role: I don't think I'd agree that Ignatz is the best character for this role. Yes, it is very easy for him to get the require skill ranks, but they're easy to get anyway. At the absolute maximum, you need a B in swords, C in bows, and C in authority to make this work. And that's assuming that you want 100% pass rate for certification, and that you're using the battalion with the highes authority requirement (out of the ones that come with Impregnable Wall). This is incredibly easy to reach by level 20 with little to no investment, even for characters that don't have all three relevant boons. I'd think it would be less important to have all the relevent boons than it would be to have a strong early-game to be able to reach level 20 quickly and easily.

[SearchingForGryphons]

5 minutes ago, lenticular said:

On the Assassin/Impregnable Wall combo: sure, I can see how this can be used very effectively to not die. (Although I assume there would still be problems facing more than a few units at once, since if the wall got fully surrounded, then units who couldn't reach the wall would then start going after the Assassin.) But I'm not really understanding what this actually accomplishes. The Assassin has to use their turn to apply the gambit, and the wall isn't going to be doing any (meaningful) damage while the gambit is applied. So I'm not sure how this is really helping you to get kills or complete objectives, in most cases. I guess you could send the pair off on their own to grab a chest or secondary objective sometimes? But I'd consider that more of a neat trick than being secretly OP. I'm also not sure how effective they could be at drawing aggro. If there's any other friendly unit in range, then they become a potential target instead of the wall. And if there are more than four enemely melee units, then there's the problem of getting surrounded. I'm just not seeing this; how are you using the combo?

Attack before you use the gambit... then gambit up for enemy phase. Since Impregnable Wall can affect up to 6 units if they are positioned right you can easily get a melee, ranged, and potentially healer depending on everything else to serve as a strike team. Have this smaller attack team strike one half of the map while the bulk of your army attacks the other. I normally don't split my army but in this set up I can have 4 units be just as effective as the bulk of my army without have to worry about them dying.

Yes, if there are too many units they can swarm Ignatz... one of the only ways to die alongside passive damage, melee attacks, and just running out of uses on the gambit. However, I was able to go basically all out in the VW final chapter and didn't even come close to getting surrounded. Had two attackers and a dancer, maybe a healer too, on top of Ignatz

13 minutes ago, lenticular said:

On Ignatz as being best suited for this role: I don't think I'd agree that Ignatz is the best character for this role. Yes, it is very easy for him to get the require skill ranks, but they're easy to get anyway. At the absolute maximum, you need a B in swords, C in bows, and C in authority to make this work. And that's assuming that you want 100% pass rate for certification, and that you're using the battalion with the highes authority requirement (out of the ones that come with Impregnable Wall). This is incredibly easy to reach by level 20 with little to no investment, even for characters that don't have all three relevant boons. I'd think it would be less important to have all the relevent boons than it would be to have a strong early-game to be able to reach level 20 quickly and easily.

Hmm, fair enough. I tend to level my units relatively equally and promote them all at once so this never even crossed my mind.

Maybe this isn't as OP as I thought it was, but I still think it's quite solid and worth checking out. Never thought it was as good as say, Retribution Dimitri or Dancer Petra though.

[lenticular]

2 minutes ago, SearchingForGryphons said:

Attack before you use the gambit... then gambit up for enemy phase. Since Impregnable Wall can affect up to 6 units if they are positioned right you can easily get a melee, ranged, and potentially healer depending on everything else to serve as a strike team. Have this smaller attack team strike one half of the map while the bulk of your army attacks the other. I normally don't split my army but in this set up I can have 4 units be just as effective as the bulk of my army without have to worry about them dying.

Ahh, yeah. I see now how it would work. Although, I presume that positioning would still be an issue? Since you basically have to make sure that everyone is in range for the gambit, which puts some real limits on what you'd be able to do. Still, especially if you use hihg-range characters (bow knights, a mage with Thyrsus, etc.) then you should be OK. But even still, you're still limited on how many units you can kill per turn, and also limited on how many charges you have on Impregnable Wall, so it still seems like something you'd have to use carefully rather than just being an insta-win.

8 minutes ago, SearchingForGryphons said:

Maybe this isn't as OP as I thought it was, but I still think it's quite solid and worth checking out. Never thought it was as good as say, Retribution Dimitri or Dancer Petra though.

Yeah, it does sound like a cool idea that's worth checking out. I'm definitely not trying to say that it's completely worthless. I'm mostly just pushing back a little against the slight hyperbole in your thread title. But it's a neat trick.

[SearchingForGryphons]

3 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Ahh, yeah. I see now how it would work. Although, I presume that positioning would still be an issue? Since you basically have to make sure that everyone is in range for the gambit, which puts some real limits on what you'd be able to do. Still, especially if you use hihg-range characters (bow knights, a mage with Thyrsus, etc.) then you should be OK. But even still, you're still limited on how many units you can kill per turn, and also limited on how many charges you have on Impregnable Wall, so it still seems like something you'd have to use carefully rather than just being an insta-win.

Yeah, you need to position in such a way everyone would be hit by the gambit. Isn't too bad though, since you're likely have a few enemies on you already, and there's a lot of powerful mages.

 

6 minutes ago, lenticular said:

Yeah, it does sound like a cool idea that's worth checking out. I'm definitely not trying to say that it's completely worthless. I'm mostly just pushing back a little against the slight hyperbole in your thread title. But it's a neat trick.

Yeah, it's probably more fair to say that the gambit is strong when used right, but support gambits kind of have to be thanks to the loss of attack power. Stealth is just a way to make easier use of it, since you are less restrained where you use it and you don't have to do as much careful positioning to protect the gambit user.

I thought it was a bit OP when I discovered it, but I now think I was mostly excited I found a cool combo on my own. I'm the FE player who beats the games due to heavy research and other peoples' builds, typically not by anything I did on my own.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

I don't really see it as any better than a traditional "Impregnable Wall lure" approach. Sure, an Assassin Ignatz can be in the range of enemies who, thanks to Stealth, will ignore him in favor of your Impregnable unit. But... then what? He's not doing anything that enemy phase, and your IW'd unit dealt the enemies little-to-no damage. Iggy can fight one of these enemies on the upcoming player phase, but he probably could've done that even starting from outside of enemy range on the last turn (so, Stealth irrelevant). And Assassin Ignatz lacks any techniques to comfortably, reliably one-round an enemy (best he can go for is Lethality, or a crit).

It's a nice tech if you're trying to get him to a certain spot on the map (i.e. boss, chest) that's otherwise swarming with enemies, I will grant. But even then, in most cases, a flier with Stride support will reach such a spot comfortably - Stealth be damned!

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Wouldn´t it put Ignatz at risk, if all allied units are surrounded by enemies having attacked for their 1 damage, but there´s still some of them left? Stealth doesn´t disallow attacks on a unit, if only that unit can be attacked, no?

[haarhaarhaar]

I don't totally understand how this strat makes Ignatz in particular OP. If anything, I'd argue that Ignatz is good enough in general that you'd want to pick a unit worse than him to use this build, because Ignatz can have solid utility in Maddening, and there are some units that can't by Level 20. Off the top of my head, Ashe and Anna would fit the bill here.

I know that Ashe is neutral in Swords, and Anna is weak in Authority, but I don't think either of these are significant obstacles. Depending on when you recruit them, both can come with auto-Thief certification (and so only need to see a bit of combat with Bows to be ready to try classing into Assassin), and D authority for Impregnable Wall is not a difficult ask by level 20, even for Anna. Most importantly, both of them would function fine in Assassin independently of this tactic, but would still be worse than Ignatz in his other good classes (say, Sniper or Dancer).

Because the main point of the build is to use Impregnable Wall, the unit involved don't massively need combat strength - if anything, the weaker of your army the better, so that you aren't making unnecessary sacrifices in combat potential (ideally, they aren't getting hit with Stealth anyway). If that's the case, calling Ignatz OP just for fitting this build the best is a bit contradictory, because it's actually admitting that he's normally the weakest of the units you'll have to hand.

 

Actually, ignore that - I reread the first post, and it seems like you're just calling the build OP, so the thread is slightly misnamed. You can advance any unit you like as far as just beyond your Assassin (i.e. 7-8 range) and have the entire group survive the EP with minimal costs, which is stellar when you need to over-extend for any reason (like needing that extra firepower for a kill, or that extra range on Physic/Warp/Rescue, or I guess just charging into enemy territory for baiting or whatever). What makes this OP, though, is how little resources you commit to the unit, compared to its utility (theoretically, it could be a below-average Level 20 unit doing a very useful job during the endgame). There aren't many builds which you put in as little for and still get something continuously reliable from.

Of course, the nature of the formation when Walling more than two units means that any enemy that can gambit you will, which can nerf a lot of the benefits of tanking the EP to begin with. And unlike other OP builds, it relies on your other units being at least decently strong. But I don't think those are critical weakness - nice build idea!

[SearchingForGryphons]

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Actually, ignore that - I reread the first post, and it seems like you're just calling the build OP, so the thread is slightly misnamed. You can advance any unit you like as far as just beyond your Assassin (i.e. 7-8 range) and have the entire group survive the EP with minimal costs, which is stellar when you need to over-extend for any reason (like needing that extra firepower for a kill, or that extra range on Physic/Warp/Rescue, or I guess just charging into enemy territory for baiting or whatever). What makes this OP, though, is how little resources you commit to the unit, compared to its utility (theoretically, it could be a below-average Level 20 unit doing a very useful job during the endgame). There aren't many builds which you put in as little for and still get something continuously reliable from.

Yeah, I said Ignatz originally because I thought he'd be best but people have explained other characters that might be able to go into it easier. And yes, I am mostly calling it OP because it takes minimum resources to obtain.

 

2 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Of course, the nature of the formation when Walling more than two units means that any enemy that can gambit you will, which can nerf a lot of the benefits of tanking the EP to begin with. And unlike other OP builds, it relies on your other units being at least decently strong. But I don't think those are critical weakness - nice build idea!

Huh, never experienced or thought of gambits. Good catch! And thanks, I appreciate it 🙂

 

4 hours ago, Imuabicus said:

Wouldn´t it put Ignatz at risk, if all allied units are surrounded by enemies having attacked for their 1 damage, but there´s still some of them left? Stealth doesn´t disallow attacks on a unit, if only that unit can be attacked, no?

Yes, but it is more unlikely than it seems, since it requires over 3 melee units (if you are only using the gambit on one person) and even more ranged units.

 

10 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't really see it as any better than a traditional "Impregnable Wall lure" approach. Sure, an Assassin Ignatz can be in the range of enemies who, thanks to Stealth, will ignore him in favor of your Impregnable unit. But... then what? He's not doing anything that enemy phase, and your IW'd unit dealt the enemies little-to-no damage. Iggy can fight one of these enemies on the upcoming player phase, but he probably could've done that even starting from outside of enemy range on the last turn (so, Stealth irrelevant). And Assassin Ignatz lacks any techniques to comfortably, reliably one-round an enemy (best he can go for is Lethality, or a crit).

It's a nice tech if you're trying to get him to a certain spot on the map (i.e. boss, chest) that's otherwise swarming with enemies, I will grant. But even then, in most cases, a flier with Stride support will reach such a spot comfortably - Stealth be damned!

Harrharrharr suggested using a weaker unit that has no chance of being useful in the PP to make them useful during the EP.

It allows you to play IW more aggressively. Yes, your EP is nonexistent, but you can chain together up to 6 powerful PPs (outside of the IW user) with little concern of your glass cannons dying. You can go all out and send a strike team fairly deep into enemy ranks without getting surrounded to the point where the IW user starts getting hit.

[DaveCozy]

 

On 6/12/2022 at 10:24 PM, SearchingForGryphons said:

I am sorry if this is well known at this point, haven't visited these forums in awhile and last I saw Ignatz was considered very weak.

yeah he's come a long way from being considered one of the worst units, I remember 2019 that was a popular opinion. I always thought he was pretty underrated myself, although to be fair, we only had Hard mode back on release too which didn't let his strengths shine as much as in Maddening.

For me it's not the Assassin build though, even though he ranks to it easily indeed, it's moreso his unique utility that makes him a good unit.

Watchful Eye is a free Hit+20 which also increases gambit accuracy. Break Shot is a really useful combat art for lowering enemy defense early, and his budding talent Seal Strength combos nicely with bows in general. Both are more useful in the early game, but they stay useful for part 2 against monsters too. Rally Speed at D authority is super good too, specially with Raphael as his class-mate learning Rally Strength. Rally Dex helps boost hit and crit rate as well which is a bit less useful, though it is unfortunate that he has to wait so long for Rally Strength at S. Authority boon is very nice as well, he can use A rank battalions before part 2 thanks to that.

I like him myself, one of the standout utility units in the game. I do think Annette is a bit better if we're talking rally utility and battalion utility though - Perseverance (rally str) + rally speed at C+ is the best rally combo, she also has an authority boon, and her offense is better too by comparison - but nevertheless Ignatz is still pretty good.

On 6/12/2022 at 10:24 PM, SearchingForGryphons said:

Step 1 - make Ignatz an Assasain. Step 2 - give Ignatz the battalion with Impregnable Wall.

Retribution gambit is also pretty effective with Stealth. It lets you stay close to the units you are supporting with it without getting targeted, not even by long 10-range siege tomes which is cool.

You can try that out in the later Cindered Shadows chapters with Hero Dmitri equipped with Battalion Wrath + a forged Killer Edge + Jeralt's Mercenaries at 2/3rd endurance to boost his crit rate, and Assassin Ashe using the Kingdom Archers as his battalion. Dimitri kills everything that targets him after he takes enough damage to bump his health below half and his battalion to 1/3rd, which activates Vantage (built-in with Hero) and Battalion Wrath. It does require doing some calcs and setup (specially moreso in the main game) but it's not expensive in terms of resources or tutoring.

It doesn't just have to be Impregnable Wall or Retribution though, it can also be Blessing/Sacred Shield, Dance of the Goddess (you can dance your dancer!), Stride... really whatever utility you need from him. Some of those are also locked to B and A battalions, so his authority boon helps there. Even a high rank damaging one works too if that's what you need, since even with a bad charm stat having Watchful Eye and mastering Archer for Hit+20 makes up quite a bit for the accuracy issue.

Assassin is also a class I generally don't see much value in since Stealth is kinda niche and swords are fairly weak weapons to get your faire for, but Ignatz is notable for having tons of utility tools that take full advantage of Stealth well. Agree that he uses the class quite well, specially as a low-commitment option for him.

If you ask me though, Paladin is a better option for the purposes of utility. 8-move, still uses grounded battalions, and has canto. For the most part it's better unless you value the thief like movement and Stealth that much. It does mean you sacrifice progress with your Authority rank to get him to certify Paladin though. So there's definitely a balance of tutoring you have to take into account too and Assassin has its merits due to his boons. I see the argument for the class personally from a utility standpoint.

On 6/13/2022 at 3:27 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Ignatz as an assassin is a fairly compelling idea. Dude shares the highest dex + luck in the game with Shamir and Cyril. So that means the highest lethality and critical hit rates to cover for his low strength. His speed can also match enemy swordies on Maddening when you're putting him in a class that boosts it by +5 naturally. But I don't think an assassin's combat compares to the consistency of Hunter's Volley. And even if Hunter's Volley fails to kill, the sniper class is several spaces away from danger with less need of healing or reposition after combat. Assassin can be good on a great unit, but Sniper makes any unit into a great unit.

All this is true, but that is actually why I don't like Sniper on Ignatz as much, since any unit can be a good Sniper as you said. I prefer using him for utility instead, since that's what sets him apart and makes him useful without consuming a lot of EXP. Shoving him in Sniper, while effective, just sacrifices his movement which prevents him from using his rallies and utility arts as effectively.

But Sniper does work well, don't get me wrong, I just think that every unit working well in it is why I prefer not to put him there and rather go for a more mobile class with Ignatz to take advantage of his utility. There's a lot of units that can make good combatants, but not a lot that make for good support in 3Houses.

That said, I do prefer Paladin over Assassin for the better movement, but I do see the appeal of the latter on Ignatz for it being low investment and for Stealth strats.

Edited June 14, 2022 by DaveCozy

[SearchingForGryphons]

Thank you so much @DaveCozyfor the detailed response, lots of good things to keep in mind there. Like I said earliar, most of the utility gambits are kind of bonkers to make up what you are loosing to use them.

Glad to hear the opinion on Ignatz has improved since I was here last. I honestly believe every character has at least one good use, even if it's niche or they fall off early.

Paladin Ignatz seems interesting. I've messed around a fair bit with classes, but never tried that one out. Assassin still seems like it would be situationally better than it though, and might be worth getting after Paladin even if you go that route. 

[haarhaarhaar]

2 hours ago, SearchingForGryphons said:

Paladin Ignatz seems interesting. I've messed around a fair bit with classes, but never tried that one out. Assassin still seems like it would be situationally better than it though, and might be worth getting after Paladin even if you go that route. 

Speaking of messing around with classes, I just remembered that Trickster also has Stealth, so would be better for this build than Assassin if you have the DLC. Ignatz works well for this, although still a waste compared to Anna. Admittedly she'd need work on getting Faith to B and Authority to D, which would delay her Riding focus to get Pass/Mv +1 a bit - but she's a free recruit with Lost Items and a couple of cheap gift options, so why not? 

Since the build's function is support and not getting hit, you don't need a Faire, Lethality, or the better Speed growth, and Chest Keys can replace Locktouch if you absolutely need to. Trickster has going for it the situationally useful Foul Play, and most importantly magic accessibility. The Faith requirement might need some work, but it's probably a net plus if you can help out on turns where you don't need the Wall strat. In the case of Ignatz, that'd be primarily with Physic. Anna gets Rescue, which can either function as normal (pulling back a unit that has gone too far/is pinned) or like a flexible Foul Play, moving forward first then bringing up a unit that hasn't moved. Either spell is very useful, and Ward is occasionally good (though worse than Impregnable Wall obviously).

Whichever unit you use (and this build could also have a proper mage that you won't use in your main army, like Linhardt), the cost is only slightly higher than Assassin, for utility that doesn't solely depend on Impregnable Wall. Worth doing imo.

EDIT: Forgot about 5-move Tricksters vs. 6-move Assassins. That alone makes it much more of a toss-up than written above. Go with your gut I guess

Edited June 14, 2022 by haarhaarhaar

[DaveCozy]

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Speaking of messing around with classes, I just remembered that Trickster also has Stealth, so would be better for this build than Assassin if you have the DLC. Ignatz works well for this, although still a waste compared to Anna. Admittedly she'd need work on getting Faith to B and Authority to D, which would delay her Riding focus to get Pass/Mv +1 a bit - but she's a free recruit with Lost Items and a couple of cheap gift options, so why not? 

Since the build's function is support and not getting hit, you don't need a Faire, Lethality, or the better Speed growth, and Chest Keys can replace Locktouch if you absolutely need to. Trickster has going for it the situationally useful Foul Play, and most importantly magic accessibility. The Faith requirement might need some work, but it's probably a net plus if you can help out on turns where you don't need the Wall strat. In the case of Ignatz, that'd be primarily with Physic. Anna gets Rescue, which can either function as normal (pulling back a unit that has gone too far/is pinned) or like a flexible Foul Play, moving forward first then bringing up a unit that hasn't moved. Either spell is very useful, and Ward is occasionally good (though worse than Impregnable Wall obviously).

Whichever unit you use (and this build could also have a proper mage that you won't use in your main army, like Linhardt), the cost is only slightly higher than Assassin, for utility that doesn't solely depend on Impregnable Wall. Worth doing imo.

EDIT: Forgot about 5-move Tricksters vs. 6-move Assassins. That alone makes it much more of a toss-up than written above. Go with your gut I guess

Yeah I was about to say, it's the move that really makes a difference to reliably keep up with your 8-move and 7-move units, supporting them as needed, even if you're not always using all 8 or 7 move points to move fully ahead, you are still canto'ing forward rather than just backwards in some situations.

Trickster is higher investment to get into it for Ignatz too. You would need something like C+ Swords and C Faith minimum to attempt the exam (B for ranks both to guarantee passing it). Whereas Assassin's C sword and C Bows to attempt and realistically pass (B sword to guarantee) is more straightforward and less investment thanks to his boons leaning to it. Your stats aren't that great either as Trickster which matters for healing. Ignatz has mediocre magic base and growth which the Trickster class doesn't help with either (12 base magic minimum, no magic modifier for being in it to neither the stat or growth), nor does it provide Healing+10 or something similar to aid in that. You also need fetters of dromi to get the best out of Foul Play, which means you aren't using them on another unit too (like your dancer).

It depends how much you care about reaching S authority with him though, which is what unlocks Rally Strength and why the "less investment" tidbit is relevant. It's also why I acknowledge that while I prefer Paladins movement, those aren't ranks that Ignatz leans towards and I am sacrificing some tutoring on his authority due to it. So there's definitely worth in considering Assassin if only just for Ignatz to use Stealth + a good movement option to combo his utility with the least possible investment.

Edited June 15, 2022 by DaveCozy

[haarhaarhaar]

8 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Yeah I was about to say, it's the move that really makes a difference to reliably keep up with your 8-move and 7-move units, supporting them as needed, even if you're not always using all 8 or 7 move points to move fully ahead, you are still canto'ing forward rather than just backwards in some situations.

Trickster is higher investment to get into it for Ignatz too. You would need something like C+ Swords and C Faith minimum to attempt the exam (B for ranks both to guarantee passing it). Whereas Assassin's C sword and C Bows to attempt and realistically pass (B sword to guarantee) is more straightforward and less investment thanks to his boons leaning to it. Your stats aren't that great either as Trickster which matters for healing. Ignatz has mediocre magic base and growth which the Trickster class doesn't help with either (12 base magic minimum, no magic modifier for being in it to neither the stat or growth), nor does it provide Healing+10 or something similar to aid in that. You also need fetters of dromi to get the best out of Foul Play, which means you aren't using them on another unit too (like your dancer).

It depends how much you care about reaching S authority with him though, which is what unlocks Rally Strength and why the "less investment" tidbit is relevant. It's also why I acknowledge that while I prefer Paladins movement, those aren't ranks that Ignatz leans towards and I am sacrificing some tutoring on his authority due to it. So there's definitely worth in considering Assassin if only just for Ignatz to use Stealth + a good movement option to combo his utility with the least possible investment.

Yeah the movement thing is critical. Less bothered about the other stuff though. Ignatz will find the ranks a bit easier to get with Assassin, but extra Physic (even with low mag and half uses) is still better having than not having imo. The point of it is mainly to top someone up/take up healing duties when your main healer is otherwise occupied, so it's not as if we're expecting Ignatz to have the same range/healing power. As for Fetters, it's at very least a case-by-case basis item. Not saying that you necessarily want to give it to this unit all the time, but given the role they're playing it certainly isn't a bad idea. Full rallybot Ignatz with Rally Strength is a nice idea, but it isn't really a must-have unless you can get it early via NG+, or you're doing some kind of challenge where you need everything you can get for the lategame. At least, I've never wanted to equip Rally skills outside of Part 1 (or for building support ranks) so I don't rate them much for the lategame.

Moreover, I've already argued that Ignatz isn't the best for this build anyway - it wastes a lot of his other potential. You should only put a unit which otherwise has little chance of making your party through this build - and I don't think Ignatz is ever that unit, unless you have very particular rules about recruitment and won't use/recruit anyone worse. If you do pick someone else, they may or may not lean towards Trickster more. But ultimately, Trickster is not a good class, and whether you choose it over Assassin here is ultimately down to whether the extra support compensates enough for the movement penalty. I think it's still in the running, but it isn't the definitive choice here.

[Bylift]

I love assassins and Ignatz does easily fall into that class.

Where I disagree is putting impregnable wall on him. His innate Hit +20 when combined with Archer Mastery Hit +20 means his offensive gambits are going to hit 100% most of the time. I'm stating the obvious to many but in case anyone doesn't know, Hit +20 applies to gambits too.

I'd sooner give him a wide AOE attack battalion with a nice Str. boost (he needs it) so he can hit harder on PP and rattle enemies for CC while using stealth to avoid retaliation on EP. Other units are going to have a harder time hitting with their battalions and I like to give those units support gambits, which never miss.

Swords are a good weapon type it baffles me when people say otherwise. The Rapier+ might be one of the overall best weapons in the game and you can even get 2 of them without using the Pagan Altar on VW.

All of that said, there are a million ways to beat/break this game and the OP's setup is viable and interesting.

[DaveCozy]

8 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Yeah the movement thing is critical. Less bothered about the other stuff though. Ignatz will find the ranks a bit easier to get with Assassin, but extra Physic (even with low mag and half uses) is still better having than not having imo. The point of it is mainly to top someone up/take up healing duties when your main healer is otherwise occupied, so it's not as if we're expecting Ignatz to have the same range/healing power.

In my experience I haven't found that to be helpful. Physic heals the same amount as Heal, and Yuri in Cindered Shadows is a good example of how little a small Heal spell matters. You can expect Ignatz' magic stat to be at about that on average, without giving him stat boosters or helping that stat out by certifying other magic ones like Warlock... Ideally I think Recover is the spell you want to heal a lot of HP with low magic stat, then with that I can see the white magic utility from Trickster being more helpful. Ignatz doesn't learn that spell though.

edit; actually we can also confirm that Recover is helpful on a Trickster even with low magic, again with Yuri from Cindered Shadows.

8 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

At least, I've never wanted to equip Rally skills outside of Part 1 (or for building support ranks) so I don't rate them much for the lategame.

Rally-botting with both Rally Speed and Rally Strength is ideal to be at its best imo, since both boosts alone increase damage output and attack speed simultaneously. It's worth noting that Ignatz supports all of Petra, Ingrid and Leonie, three of which are some of the fastest units in the game on average and all three which benefit from it greatly.

Rally Speed alone is still pretty good utility though, and you can still get away with just that if you really want and know what speed thresholds you need to be hitting.

Rally Dex is more situational and the one I do usually swap in and out depending on the enemies. I've used it moreso to push crit rate of someone else to 100% against certain enemies with higher than average luck, though that's a case by case situation.

1 hour ago, Bylift said:

Swords are a good weapon type it baffles me when people say otherwise. The Rapier+ might be one of the overall best weapons in the game and you can even get 2 of them without using the Pagan Altar on VW.

What I personally stated was that I don't like getting Swordfaire with Assassin since they are weaker on average compared to every other weapon type.

That doesn't mean I don't use swords though, it just means I use swords in other classes usually. For the good ones, I just personally mostly prefer using swords outside Swordfaire classes is all, which is why I don't like Assassin for offense. The +5/+10 might if doubling isn't offering me anything more than what I could get in a more mobile class with a better faire (Paladin, Wyvern) or a class with a busted mastery art (Grappler, Sniper).

For utility though, that's where I like the Assassin class since Stealth can be combined with other traits to get something else out of it. Ignatz is a good example of a unit who benefits from it greatly since his unique learnset revolves mostly around increasing an ally's stats and decreasing an enemy's stats, on top of also being able to carry high ranked battalions sooner on average - whether that battalion is support or offensive oriented for the rattle effect is really up to you, both work well with him in my experience.

For an e.g. of a good sword used in a non-swordfaire build: War Master Balthus (+20 crit built-in) with a forged Wo Dao+ (+40 crit), Vantage, Wrath (+50 crit) and a Retribution gambit is a pretty effective EP build I've ran in the main game, kills nearly every enemy with a guaranteed crit, even without Swordfiare and even those with fairly high luck stats thanks to the high base crit boost you're stacking. At least, every enemy that isn't attacking with a gambit, wearing a suit of armor or is a monster with a barrier up. Rapier+ is good too and can also be used against Armors with the above build. There's a few other swords I like too like SotC and Thunderbrand, but they're moreso exceptions for me since the other swords are weaker compared to their axe, lance and bow counterparts.

Edited June 15, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Dark Holy Elf]

Impregnable Wall is a good gambit, and the best user of it will indeed have either Stealth or Canto so they are less likely to be targeted themselves. This is therefore, a fine build for Ignatz.

Where I disagree is that Ignatz stands out at this role terribly well. The rank requirements are incredibly lenient for this: Assassin is an incredibly easy class to qualify for (arguably the easiest), and the Impregnable Wall battalions are low rank. What differentiates units doing this build is what they can do on turns they aren't using Wall, and in that case, Ignatz's poor offensive stats (low strength, average speed) hold him back. Even just considering the Assassin version of this build, I would consider all of Byleth, Catherine, Felix, Petra, and Yuri to be preferable for this: all have substantially better offence, and all have relevant boons to get to Assassin very easily.

And of course, Golden Deer/Verdant Wind (where Ignatz is most useful), the Wall battalion is a flying one, and is thus better used by a flier.

On 6/14/2022 at 11:45 AM, DaveCozy said:

All this is true, but that is actually why I don't like Sniper on Ignatz as much, since any unit can be a good Sniper as you said. I prefer using him for utility instead, since that's what sets him apart and makes him useful without consuming a lot of EXP. Shoving him in Sniper, while effective, just sacrifices his movement which prevents him from using his rallies and utility arts as effectively.

I definitely feel differently. By the time we're talking Advanced classes, Ignatz's Rallies are nearly worthless IMO (and push out better abilities), so there's little lost in being in a low-move class. As for debuffs, which maintain some value against monsters, Sniper is actually one of the best classes for using them, due to Bow Range+1 / Bowfaire. And bow classes in general make the best use of Watchful Eye; Ignatz's hit on non-gambits is overkill in many other builds, but not when needing to overcome the -50 penalty of attacking at 4 range. Hunter's Volley patches up Ignatz's worst flaw, his poor offence, so to me it's easily his best class.