Ignatz is secretly one of the most OP units.

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:42 PM, DaveCozy said:

It depends how much you care about reaching S authority with him though, which is what unlocks Rally Strength and why the "less investment" tidbit is relevant.

Honestly, anything above A authority ain't worth it. Too much effort that could have gone to something more impactful. Also, by that point, I'd consider rallies pretty much obsolete.

[Bylift]

On 6/15/2022 at 10:25 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, anything above A authority ain't worth it.

Hard agree. If it happens naturally, fine, but I've never found a spot for defensive, let alone offensive tactics, in my precious few ability slots.

[DaveCozy]

On 6/16/2022 at 1:25 AM, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, anything above A authority ain't worth it. Too much effort that could have gone to something more impactful. Also, by that point, I'd consider rallies pretty much obsolete.

That depends on your gameplay preferences imo. Rally-bots don't need exp so they can work even if they get stunned at level 20. Specifically level 20 to reach an advanced class with good movement. But how much value you get out of that depends on how many units you prefer to have in hand for combat usefulness.

The ones I don't use much in part 2 are Rally Magic and Rally Res. Those usually get thrown out by me.

Rally Defense is okay up to ch15 or 16 route dependent. Enemy damage really spikes after that point I find for the defense boost to not make much of a difference, let alone protection tanks start losing value too.

The ones I get use out of for part 2 are Rally Dex and Rally Luck to boost crit rate to 100, which is moreso for specific strategies and builds. Unit and gameplay dependent.

Rally Charm situationally moreso for dodgetanks or crit-blocks with low charm if I need them to avoid an enemy with a battalion.

Rally Strength and Rally Speed are the best ones, and I can usually find a use for whether it's to get just a bit more damage on Swift Strikes or if it's to double an enemy that matches my AS with someone like Petra or Ingrid. Just as e.g.

But then again, I do agree that S rank Authority is really high of a requirement and I've never really gone for it with Ignatz either. Even though Rally Str + Rally Spd is really useful from my experience, you can do that for far cheaper investment with either Annette or having Raphael + Ignatz rally-botting.

Also why I don't mention Rally Mov since it's locked to S rank for both Byleth and Annette, which is way too high of a requirement for just +1 move. That is one silly rally, specially when you can just equip the march ring to get the mov+1 bonus, move, then unequip it for something better in enemy phase. Or at least get to A+ riding with the unit who needs the extra move; still a lot of investment but more attainable than S authority.

On 6/15/2022 at 9:31 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Hunter's Volley patches up Ignatz's worst flaw, his poor offence, so to me it's easily his best class.

And fair enough too, it really depends whether you prefer him as an offensive unit or as a support unit.

Merits to both imo.

  

6 hours ago, Bylift said:

Hard agree. If it happens naturally, fine, but I've never found a spot for defensive, let alone offensive tactics, in my precious few ability slots.

Just to point something out, defensive tactics is B authority. It has some use, but it depends if you like battalion abilities. I like it to set up B Wrath + Vantage until I get better abilities, but whether you like that or not is gameplay preference dependent.

Offensive tactics is absolutely worthless though, since it is S+ and you really don't need +5mt on a gambit, like not ever. That ability is a real headscratcher.

Edited June 24, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

That depends on your gameplay preferences imo. Rally-bots don't need exp so they can work even if they get stunned at level 20. Specifically level 20 to reach an advanced class with good movement. But how much value you get out of that depends on how many units you prefer to have in hand for combat usefulness.

The ones I don't use much in part 2 are Rally Magic and Rally Res. Those usually get thrown out by me.

Rally Defense is okay up to ch15 or 16 route dependent. Enemy damage really spikes after that point I find for the defense boost to not make much of a difference, let alone protection tanks start losing value too.

The ones I get use out of for part 2 are Rally Dex and Rally Luck to boost crit rate to 100, which is moreso for specific strategies and builds. Unit and gameplay dependent.

Rally Charm situationally moreso for dodgetanks or crit-blocks with low charm if I need them to avoid an enemy with a battalion.

Rally Strength and Rally Speed are the best ones, and I can usually find a use for whether it's to get just a bit more damage on Swift Strikes or if it's to double an enemy that matches my AS with someone like Petra or Ingrid. Just as e.g.

But then again, I do agree that S rank Authority is really high of a requirement and I've never really gone for it with Ignatz either. Even though Rally Str + Rally Spd is really useful from my experience, you can do that for far cheaper investment with either Annette or having Raphael + Ignatz rally-botting.

Also why I don't mention Rally Mov since it's locked to S rank for both Byleth and Annette, which is way too high of a requirement for just +1 move. That is one silly rally, specially when you can just equip the march ring to get the mov+1 bonus, move, then unequip it for something better in enemy phase. Or at least get to A+ riding with the unit who needs the extra move; still a lot of investment but more attainable than S authority.

The problem with rallies in Three Houses is that they are significantly less useful relative to Awakening and Fates. In general, a single target buff rarely feels worth it outside of the earlygame. Second, unlike in the latter two games, where it was possible to combine whatever rallies you wanted, in 3H, you are stuck with what you get, and what you get often isn't very good. Rally Defense in particular suffers from coming too late; by that point, most enemies hit way too hard for -4 damage to make a difference. Being on two route-exclusive characters doesn't help matters.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DaveCozy]

18 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem with rallies in Three Houses is that they are significantly less useful relative to Awakening and Fates. In general, a single target buff rarely feels worth it outside of the earlygame. Second, unlike in the latter two games, where it was possible to combine whatever rallies you wanted, in 3H, you are stuck with what you get, and what you get often isn't very good. Rally Defense in particular suffers from coming too late; by that point, most enemies hit way too hard for -4 damage to make a difference. Being on two route-exclusive characters doesn't help matters.

It's true that rallies aren't as great as they were in previous entries, but I don't see why that is an issue in regards to their usefulness in Maddening 3H either. I went into details with how I use each one, and while they're not as useful as in part 1, there is merit to having some of them for part 2 maps.

Being stuck with what you get is unfortunate, since that does limit the amount of units who can dedicate themselves to rallying. From personal experience, Annette and Ignatz are about the only useful ones in that role longterm due to their learnsets. The rest is more of a side utility thing they have that they will use semi occasionally.

Rally defense is pretty bad for its availability indeed, personally though the best I get out of it is in Ch13 non-CF. Iirc, the strongest mt you can expect is 43 from the Assassins and Snipers. Seteth in SS or Gilbert in AM have it, and letting another unit take 8 less damage when doubled can be significant from my experience, it means the difference if you need to take on 2 enemies in EP.

I think it's just okay personally, my vote for the worst rally still goes to rally move.

Edited June 25, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Rallies may not be as good as previous games, but there's some obvious use cases once you're playing on Maddening and have to plan out each enemy phase. In Golden Deer for instance, if you push for it, Raphael and Ignatz can grab rally strength and rally speed, and apply those to Leonie, your tankiest unit in chapter 2. Her enemy phase becomes way less scary, and her personal also activates since you left a boy next to her. Rally strength has also saved my life just by mitigating that extra point of weapon weight.  I also have a newfound respect for annette's rally resistance. In Chapter 4 the only enemies you have to worry about (besides the Death Knight) Are mages with 14 Mag and 11-13 AS. They hurt way more than the physical enemies! Chapter 13 is another big one. On Silver Snow it's basically a Byleth solo unless you did some infinitive grinding on Seteth to pick up class masteries and swift strikes. Assuming Seteth isn't decked out, rally defense and then cantoing away is perfect for Byleth holding out against the assassins. Gilbert provides the same service, and generally has enough defense that enemies won't target him unless he's the only person in range. 

[DaveCozy]

37 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

Gilbert provides the same service, and generally has enough defense that enemies won't target him unless he's the only person in range

Yep, he will. If you give Ashe a Silver Shield in ch12 so he can trade it to Gilbert in ch13, Gilbert will have 38 total protection (his 29 base defense + 2 from personal ability + 3 from lvl3 battalion + 4 from silver shield). The highest might you can expect is 43 from the Assassins and Snipers in HBD, which makes Gilbert a reliable tank for that chapter and also lets him safely set up Rally Defense on another unit like Byleth or Dimitri.

Definitely has its uses before enemy might starts regularly hitting the high 50s to low 60s, which in AM I think it's ch17 or 18. That's when I usually throw it out his ability set myself.

Edited June 25, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Shadow Mir]

9 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

It's true that rallies aren't as great as they were in previous entries, but I don't see why that is an issue in regards to their usefulness in Maddening 3H either. I went into details with how I use each one, and while they're not as useful as in part 1, there is merit to having some of them for part 2 maps.

Being stuck with what you get is unfortunate, since that does limit the amount of units who can dedicate themselves to rallying. From personal experience, Annette and Ignatz are about the only useful ones in that role longterm due to their learnsets. The rest is more of a side utility thing they have that they will use semi occasionally.

Rally defense is pretty bad for its availability indeed, personally though the best I get out of it is in Ch13 non-CF. Iirc, the strongest mt you can expect is 43 from the Assassins and Snipers. Seteth in SS or Gilbert in AM have it, and letting another unit take 8 less damage when doubled can be significant from my experience, it means the difference if you need to take on 2 enemies in EP.

I think it's just okay personally, my vote for the worst rally still goes to rally move.

They're at their best early on, but even then, there's still an opportunity cost to using rallies. Using rallies means you don't get exp, class exp or skill exp, for one. It doesn't help that in general rallies don't really make that much of a difference, with the exception of, again, the earlygame (sure, it might help you kill an enemy that you might not have been able to otherwise, but... you likely could have accomplished the same by just having the rally user attack instead). Not helping is that Annette and Ignatz are the exact types of units that specialize in long-range damage.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Barren]

On 6/25/2022 at 7:10 PM, Shadow Mir said:

They're at their best early on, but even then, there's still an opportunity cost to using rallies. Using rallies means you don't get exp, class exp or skill exp, for one. It doesn't help that in general rallies don't really make that much of a difference, with the exception of, again, the earlygame (sure, it might help you kill an enemy that you might not have been able to otherwise, but... you likely could have accomplished the same by just having the rally user attack instead). Not helping is that Annette and Ignatz are the exact types of units that specialize in long-range damage.

You’re right about rallies having an opportunity cost because also in some cases you could mess with the AI at times because now they need to reconsider who to target. What I mean is if rally speed from Ignatz for example in early chapter were to come into play, then the enemy AI now has to decide who it can damage more because they will go for the most damage that they can pending on whose in range.

 

But like you already said, the rally bot gains nothing for a turn. The only other instance I can think of is during my golden deer route in part 2, chapter 14. I used Annette as a Dark Flier/Rally bot combo and she has a support with Claude. So rally strength + speed + link bonus allowed Claude to safely one shot a pegasus knight since he was like a couple of points of damage off from securing a OHK.

Onto the topic of Assassin Ignatz with Impregnable Wall, it’s a neat idea for sure as Stealth should allow him some protection. And it’s a low investment idea for sure. I’ll have to read some of the earlier posts later to get a better idea from this, but it only sounds like you’re just either stalling for time or perhaps if the enemy AI does what you want it to do then maybe you do something like locking down a horde of enemies lined up for your battalion attack.

 

Ignatz as an assassin should be able to score some crits provided that he has a forged Wo Dao and a battalion with higher strength and crit which shouldn’t be too hard to come by. Maybe Break Shot with Seal Strength to make it easier for let’s say Raphael to finish an enemy off afterwards during your turn. But I particularly just use Sniper Ignatz. Boring maybe but incredibly effective since he essentially gains Hit +20 on top of the archer’s Hit+20 giving him +40 hit when using Hunter’s Volley encouraging him to stay as far back as he can and still accomplish what the assassin set up can do but better. At least in my opinion.

[DaveCozy]

On 6/25/2022 at 7:10 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Using rallies means you don't get exp, class exp or skill exp

On 7/1/2022 at 7:18 AM, Barren said:

But like you already said, the rally bot gains nothing for a turn.

Well like I said earlier in the topic, that's actually why I like them. Less EXP to share around my units. Not every map lets you deploy 11 or 12 units, so having some wiggle room with where I deploy and use them is nice without having to worry about them falling behind in EXP to stay useful. Typically I stick to about 8 combat units max in a playthrough, with the extra 2 - 4 that get deployed being a dancer, a healer and then the other spots are for whatever I need; be it a warper or rescuer or a rally unit.

Also rallies help for enemy phase too, so while the comment about chipping with them can be true indeed (depending on movement though), player phase isn't the only place where rallies are relevant either.

It's a gameplay preference of mine, so your mileage may vary. But that's how I use them and deploy them.

Edited July 5, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Barren]

3 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Well like I said earlier in the topic, that's actually why I like them. Less EXP to share around my units. Not every map lets you deploy 11 or 12 units, so having some wiggle room with where I deploy and use them is nice without having to worry about them falling behind in EXP to stay useful. Typically I stick to about 8 combat units max in a playthrough, with the extra 2 - 4 that get deployed being a dancer, a healer and then the other spots are for whatever I need; be it a warper or rescuer or a rally unit.

Also rallies help for enemy phase too, so while the comment about chipping with them can be true indeed (depending on movement though), player phase isn't the only place where rallies are relevant either.

It's a gameplay preference of mine, so your mileage may vary. But that's how I use them and deploy them.

I don’t deny that rallies has it uses. Rally Strength/Defense in particular I find useful simply due to the fact that sometimes you might be missing out on that OHKO threshold early on. Like when using Combat Arts which has more significance in Maddening than any other mode. Or even stronger chip like you mentioned. In other cases just being able to survive and not get ORKO’d

I’ll just mention the early rallies that may come into play from chapter 2 to 4.

 

Hubert gets Rally Magic. That can help Dorothea pick up a kill. Likewise Dorothea gets Rally Charm which can easily help out usually Byleth or Edelgard land a gambit since their charm stat is good early on, assuming you gave them a battalion to use.

Dorothea you kind of need to work on solely her authority for chapter 2 and get lucky even with the RNG when tutoring her. Not to mention the practice battle where you would give her a battalion and maybe join in on the seminar hosted by Seteth.

 

Annette already has Rally Strength off the bat and that it helps Dimitri score OHKOs with Tempest Lance provided that his strength increases upon almost every level up he gets (which he most likely will). Dedue getting that Rally Strength from Annette and then he waits and gets a Rally Defense allows him to hit harder and be bulkier on EP. Rally Res makes Ingrid pretty much immune to Priests with Nosferatu but otherwise it’s insignificant.

 

Raphael and Ignatz having Rally Strength and Speed respectively can lead to some fun AI manipulation. Zoran did a play through on this game showing this off. But it can also help Lorenz when having Hilda stand next to him and have a battalion equipped deal very significant damage with Tempest Lance. This combo can also help make a bulky Leonie provided that Rivalry activates and she has a leather shield equipped too.

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Well like I said earlier in the topic, that's actually why I like them. Less EXP to share around my units. Not every map lets you deploy 11 or 12 units, so having some wiggle room with where I deploy and use them is nice without having to worry about them falling behind in EXP to stay useful. Typically I stick to about 8 combat units max in a playthrough, with the extra 2 - 4 that get deployed being a dancer, a healer and then the other spots are for whatever I need; be it a warper or rescuer or a rally unit.

Also rallies help for enemy phase too, so while the comment about chipping with them can be true indeed (depending on movement though), player phase isn't the only place where rallies are relevant either.

It's a gameplay preference of mine, so your mileage may vary. But that's how I use them and deploy them.

That doesn't really change the fact that the opportunity cost for them is pretty steep, and only grows as the game goes on.

Sure, they have utility for enemy phase, but on Maddening, enemy attack power eventually gets ridiculous to the point where only a dodgetank or someone who had Impregnable Wall used on them (which, because it cuts all damage taken and given to 1, would then render the rallies moot) can hope to survive enemies. Which, again, pretty much relegates their usefulness to earlygame (and even then, the most useful enemy phase rally comes much too late for it to be very useful).

[Barren]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That doesn't really change the fact that the opportunity cost for them is pretty steep, and only grows as the game goes on.

Sure, they have utility for enemy phase, but on Maddening, enemy attack power eventually gets ridiculous to the point where only a dodgetank or someone who had Impregnable Wall used on them (which, because it cuts all damage taken and given to 1, would then render the rallies moot) can hope to survive enemies. Which, again, pretty much relegates their usefulness to earlygame (and even then, the most useful enemy phase rally comes much too late for it to be very useful).

Well that is usually why it’s okay throw a rally once in a while until you grab gambits like impregnable wall or retribution or even blessing when the situation calls for it. You’re also correct about impregnable wall making rallies pointless later on but maybe don’t rally the unit that has the gambit applied to them (I know I’m pointing out the obvious).

 

Sometimes I still use Rally Strength from Annette if I made her a Dark Flier for example incase my attack isn’t strong enough for a OHKO when using effective damage i.e Rapier which has gotten a significant upgrade or a forged bow. Rally Defense if I’m using in conjunction with other abilities like Rivalry/Philanderer, Lily’s Poise, etc. But those are specific scenarios that even then you can get by without them just by using intelligent but aggressive play on maddening.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sure, they have utility for enemy phase, but on Maddening, enemy attack power eventually gets ridiculous to the point where only a dodgetank or someone who had Impregnable Wall used on them (which, because it cuts all damage taken and given to 1, would then render the rallies moot) can hope to survive enemies. Which, again, pretty much relegates their usefulness to earlygame (and even then, the most useful enemy phase rally comes much too late for it to be very useful).

Rallies retain their utility on bosskill maps, if nothing else. Often you're just sending a single unit to take on the boss, while the rest provide supporting roles (i.e. Stride, Miracle, Dance). Rally Speed can let a unit double where they wouldn't otherwise, while Rally Strength adds 8 damage with two-hit moves or combat arts (or when doubling normally). These effects aren't as big as, say, Darting Blow or Death Blow, but they can work in conjunction to overcome bosses' sky-high stats on Maddening. A rallybot who can help the "dedicated carry" reliably kill the boss is of far more value to me than another combat unit who's probably never going to see battle, or a healer who'll never jave to heal. Again, in the admittedly limited context of a "Defeat Boss(es)" map.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Feels like this thread has veered pretty far off the initial discussion. But there's one element I'm curious about. How much have you guys used Impregnable Wall? For me the answer is like, once before my current playthrough where I've used it at least 10 times in just this one chapter (chapter 8 ) where it becomes available. And yet my opinion of it has only dropped. Impregnable Wall sounds soooo good in a vacuum. Make three of your guys invulnerable for a whole turn. You can use it after they've attacked, or before they move if you intend to use their turn healing up with an item or Healing Focus. And you get five uses of it. But I'm beginning to think it's only just barely on the verge of useability:

• If your targets for the gambit are already surrounded, making them invulnerable only shifts the enemy aggro lines to the user - who is not affected. This limits the potential for using this gambit after your units have attacked. A mounted unit with canto can possibly do it and get out, but unless it's VW (see third point), the only eligible canto users are cavaliers which aren't the most popular class on Maddening. 
• If your enemies can gambit you, they generally will, rather than attacking. Because while Impregnable Wall does reduce the damage to 1, it does not prevent the Rattled status, or the loss of your battalion. It's frustrating to lure a group of enemies into a big clump only to realize that your big AoE gambit was on the guy you sent out to lure them. And your three heroes can't step forward to knock out ranged attackers or any enemies that canto-d away from them. You need more long term planning than "let's just lure these guys over here"
• Impregnable wall is on exactly one batallion per route that is made available at chapter 8. It's on a D rank for BE, and BL, and on a C rank flying batallion for VW. They're not bad battalions for the standards of Chapter 8 but eventually your units will want to graduate to stuff that grants better stats. I feel like only VW is a route in which they'll continue being used in the late game simply because it's a flying batallion, and your fliers have few options to be picky about.
• Just to hammer the point home, the gambit does not prevent bonus effects, like Seal skills or the archer's deadly Poison Strike. Poison Strike can't kill you, but impregnable wall can't save you if you're already at 1 HP. Health management is still crucial in cases where one of your guys can be brought down to single digit HP and there's a ton of Thieves with Pass dealing two damage each.

I think this gambit has a lot of potential in the Ignatz/Raphael paralogue for keeping the green units alive. But its user must be able to survive several rounds with that monster in order to get them out. On the second turn with that monster, you'll presumably stand in a spot where he can't target the green units lined up on the bridge, healing yourself and maybe getting topped off by a Physic. But then you get nailed by the staggering blow, stranding you there for a third round of attacks. I didn't see a way of saving those green units without impregnable wall, but just a few turns later, Recovery Roar of all things saved our lives. It's an unorthodox run. 

[LoneRecon400]

5 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

-Snip-

To nitpick:

Impregnable Wall is actually a pretty good way of making enemies not using their gambits. If enemies double a unit with the gambit in effect, they'll always attack normally rather than use a gambit.

Seal skills that occur on enemy phase also are not applied on the next player phase. (not that many enemies have seal skills)

To rebuttal:

Impregnable Wall is worth using even on routes where it's attached to medicore battalions because of how it help solve some really annoying elements of maps. It can really help with luring same turn reinforcements, avoid taking damage from seige weapons (especially potent for vengence users), and makes it so that any unit can be left in the range of any enemy without having to be worried about being one rounded.

And if you go out of your way to avoid quest and aux battles, the gambit becomes instrumental being able to master classes in a timely fashion.

Overall it just a great way of dealing with enemies when they pretty cleanly start to 1-2 round your units.

Edited July 6, 2022 by LoneRecon400

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

5 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I think this gambit has a lot of potential in the Ignatz/Raphael paralogue for keeping the green units alive. But its user must be able to survive several rounds with that monster in order to get them out. On the second turn with that monster, you'll presumably stand in a spot where he can't target the green units lined up on the bridge, healing yourself and maybe getting topped off by a Physic. But then you get nailed by the staggering blow, stranding you there for a third round of attacks. I didn't see a way of saving those green units without impregnable wall, but just a few turns later, Recovery Roar of all things saved our lives. It's an unorthodox run. 

I don't recall it being so hard to keep the Impregnable Wall caster (the "Impregnater", if you will) out of the enemy Wolf's range. On VW, you can just stick it on a Pegasus Knight, who can fly in and then Canto away. It's trickier on other routes, sure, but Cavalier is an option. Or even a non-Canto unit can be Rescued back to safety by Flayn or Anna.

As for Inpregnable Wall in general, I find it the perfect tool for luring foes. Whereas a unit taking normal damage might not survive more than one foe per EP, an IW'd unit can draw in 4 or 5. Which sounds scary, except that there are way more tools (Gambits, Brave Weapons, Combat Arts, Blow Skills) to handle them on the next PP. Dodgetanking can work similarly I guess, while allowing for counter-attack damage, but it's higher-effort to get the right skills and equipment for it. Impregnable Wall, you just have to bring and use, to get a similar "safe lure" effect.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

1 hour ago, LoneRecon400 said:

Impregnable Wall is actually a pretty good way of making enemies not using their gambits. If enemies double a unit with the gambit in effect, they'll always attack normally rather than use a gambit.

I suppose that's a good point. The expectation is that you'd put this on your least tanky (presumably fastest and most frail) units, so that's probably why I'm constantly getting gambited after using Impregnable Wall. Putting it on units that you know get doubled is good tech. You're out of luck if the enemy just happens to be slow, like an armor knight or any infantry axe user. They have batallions too.

Quote

Seal skills that occur on enemy phase also are not applied on the next player phase. (not that many enemies have seal skills)

This is incorrect. If a Dark Mage (Seal Strength) hits you on Enemy phase, you're debuffed on the resulting player phase. What you're thinking of is when seal skills are on player controlled units. When we apply them on enemy phase, they disappear on the next player phase. Still surprised they never patched this because it's not a matter of Seal Skills being bad in terms of game balance, it's about them not working consistently between the player and enemy units.

Quote

And if you go out of your way to avoid quest and aux battles, the gambit becomes instrumental being able to master classes in a timely fashion.

I'm guessing the User of the gambit is so naturally tanky that the enemies can't even deal 1 damage to him. Or you found this pocket of the map where the (presumably infantry) enemies can't get past the guy in front to reach the gambit user. In which case, good cheese. Hope you have the strength to beat those guys up when you run out of the gambit. But it doesn't much compare to swinging broken weapons at priests with renewal if grinding is your thing. 

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't recall it being so hard to keep the Impregnable Wall caster (the "Impregnater", if you will) out of the enemy Wolf's range. On VW, you can just stick it on a Pegasus Knight, who can fly in and then Canto away. It's trickier on other routes, sure, but Cavalier is an option. 

Yeah rethinking it I guess you're right. I was using an armor knight who was stuck on the other side waiting for the greenies to cross. A cavalier has the movement to get back across the bridge, and impregnate the villager in the back on his way out. The wolf can only reach that one villager on that turn, so he's the only one that needs the protection.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I find Impregnable Wall good and useful but not without its flaws. Did a no-gambits (among other things) run recently and did I miss it? Sure, though not as much as I missed Stride or the best offensive gambits. That sums up where my opinion of it lands (which is also what our old gambit-rating thread suggested, IIRC). I usually put it on someone despite the low stats of the battalion, but I may swap it out on occasion.

I'll note that it has great synergy with the way you can draw attacks from monsters (e.g. with gambits, or the fact that they won't move if charging a staggering blow), and in particular Hapi; use it on her to break Sothis's paralogue in half as the monsters will all be forced to target her if able.

It's best-used on someone with Canto or Stealth so you can keep them safe. Cavaliers are mentioned as not being the most popular Maddening class, and that's fair, but as soon as you hit Advanced (which you should within a couple chapters of getting this gambit), there's also Paladin, and later Bow Knight. (Magic mounted classes too, but the Wall battalions have pretty putrid magic stat so I don't usually do that.)

I'm a big fan of dodgetanking and once you get that up and running it's often easier to use that than IW, since the dodgetank can go where they want without worrying about where the Wall user will be or tying up their turn (ties up the dodgetank's turn instead to use Alert Stance, sure, but I find that a lot more flexible since no positioning enters play). They also don't fear Poison Strike and can do counter damage back (potentially lethal counter damage with certain setups, but useful even if not). That said Wall enters play before Alert Stance+ does, and remains useful for protecting squishy units even thereafter.

I don't really think much of it as a grinding tool. If grinding is something you want to do, there's loads of ways to do it: aux battles, broken weapons, dragging out existing battles in silly ways, etc., etc. I personally prefer playing without deliberate grinding.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Dark Holy Elf

[DaveCozy]

On 7/6/2022 at 2:16 PM, Zapp Branniglenn said:

How much have you guys used Impregnable Wall?

I mostly use it in part 1 on my regular playthroughs. That's where I think it's at its best. Empire and Kingdom armored Co battalions (BE and BL respectively) grant +5 protection when maxed, so even if your worry is that they'll get targetted instead, you can stack protection on the "impregnater" (that term sounds so... wrong... but I'll roll with it) to let them handle enemy phase. Armored Knight class not a necessity to do that either in part 1, although you can make it work even with 4 move if you must.

For part 2 use I think it's a lot more useful if you're aiming to clear maps quickly and need to involve an extra Enemy Phase to do so. HBD is a good example of where impregnable wall comes in useful on Byleth (in a flying class), Claude or Seteth to end that map as quickly as possible. You need Impregnable Wall in order to set up the approach towards the boss (fake + real one) whilst ignoring the enemies that attack you while approaching him.

Generally also for baiting dangerous bosses with high move, such as CF ch16 Ingrid or AM ch17 Claude.

Dark Holy Elf talked about it a bit, but that is also a funny use I've gotten out of it; not just in the Sothis paralogue but in Mariannes as well, and also in Silver Snow's endgame with Hapi. Monsters will target her by default, setting her with impregnable wall will make her deal 1 damage indeed, but still automatically break even full barriers thanks to her ability. In general that's a really good way to farm ore in those paralogues for a more leisurely Maddening playthrough not focused on LTC or efficiency. In SS endgame it's a really cheap and easy way to keep the bulk of your team safe on enemy phase (you get like 5 uses of the gambit iirc, which is really generous).

Those are some uses that come to mind for me.

It's not an "end-all" kind of gambit though, eventually you can build units to not need it; like avo-tanks, Vantage + Wrath, etc. That stuff comes later though.

And fwiw, I think Blessing & Retribution later outclass Impregnable Wall too, once you have those kinds of units that can either strike first on enemy phase or reliably dodge them.

On 7/6/2022 at 8:50 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Again, in the admittedly limited context of a "Defeat Boss(es)" map.

Not actually that limited in 3H tbh. The vast majority of missions are "defeat commander(s)" victory conditions: https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/List_of_chapters_in_Fire_Emblem:_Three_Houses

Edited July 14, 2022 by DaveCozy