Remember when Micaiah was really hated?

[♠Soul♠]

I remember like 10 years back, people generally disliked Micaiah in her original game. They hated how she was this "Mary Sue" character, and the acts she did in Part 3. I'm kind of surprised it's the exact opposite in Heroes, and it's clear she's really well recieved. I don't know if it's her design, or people haven't really played FE10... or just really shifted their mindset, or something.

[Sasori]

I remember not liking Micaiah all that much initially, but I turned around on her later. She has a different story then many other lords, cute relationship with Pelleas/Rafeal and she even gets a interesting conversation out of Illyana of all people. I wasn't fond of RD Sothe and his obsessive guard dogging either. 

But mostly after replaying I found out that I did't dislike Micaiah or Sothe...I just disliked Micaiah AND Sothe. Because the whole:
Sothe: Don't do this Micaiah
Micaiah: I'm sorry Sothe but 😞
Sothe: Alright, BUT MUST PROTEC

Was really boring, repetetive and it just ended up looking to me like those two never agreed with each other and had nothing in common. 

But after replaying RD I liked Micaiah for the above mentioned reasons and Sothe is pretty good when he talkes to the POR cast or like with Nolan. Just anyone not named Micaiah and Pelleas mostly.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Sasori

[♠Soul♠]

[Punished Dayni]

I like that she can commit regicide.

[ciphertul]

Nope, because if the player didn’t hate her and stayed off of forum site they would have never known.

 

Edit: Retrospective joke.

Yeah, me neither but I have been told that Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Edited June 15, 2022 by ciphertul

[Sock Puppet]

I don't remember widespread hatred for her from the community, although her frailty certainly did not make her extremely popular.

However, I have never liked her as a character. Her ardent nationalism is weird and out-of-place; it does not fit at all with the rest of her characterization. Moreover, the only way the game can make her seem virtuous is by pitting her against the most one-sided, Agarthanically-evil villains in possibly the whole FE series. 

[Shrimpica]

I am still not that big on her, but i never viewed her as a Mary sue, and in story she works quite well

18 minutes ago, Sock Puppet said:

Her ardent nationalism is weird and out-of-place; it does not fit at all with the rest of her characterization.

yeah

For someone that was discriminated against alot to be that nationalistic....

Well, doesn't make much sense, but can happen.

What i found more weird is how she went from a rebel leader in part 1 to following every order in part 3 no questions asked.

In the greater story, it works, but doesn't make me a big fan of her character

[Rose482]

It's not that she doesn't still get hate, it's just the people that dislike her aren't as vocal anymore. 

Like for example, the two people above me calling her a "nationalist" for not going the route that would lead her country to ruins really sorta showcases this. There really  is this weird mixture of both disliking her and also not trying to understand her character in the first place.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Rose482

[Alastor15243]

I think Fire Emblem just gradually got way more controversial characters in it. Most of what people didn't like about Micaiah, for example, is stuff Corrin is guilty of to orders of magnitude of a higher degree.

[Acacia Sgt]

I'd guess another factor was Ike's own popularity being bigger back then. Since as I recall, dislike towards Micaiah tended to correlate with like towards Ike.

[Etrurian emperor]

I still recall the times Michy was widely hated. I suspect Fates trying a lot of the same ideas as RD more poorly really made people look more kindly on the girl.

I never bought in to the idea that Micaiah was a Marry Sue though. For me the biggest qualifiers for that trope are that the main characters all universally like the Marry Sue, and that the writers are pulling strings to make the Sue look good. Neither of that applies to Michy. She's widely criticized by many characters, and Ike openly refers to her as a nutjob. And the writers don't seem interested to try and convince us that she's on the right side. The narrator even states that its Ike who's fighting for justice and that Micaiah isn't. 

''A hero sides with the Laguz and justice, the maiden fights for the Beorc and Daein'' 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Y'know, I wouldn't be surprised if the very first time I read the words "Mary Sue" was somebody on this forum talking about Micaiah. But like, in a place you wouldn't expect such as a RTU thread. It's Micaiah day and somebody types "Mary Sue (oops, mispelled lol)" then goes into her rating without skipping a beat. But even back then the commonly accepted definition of Mary Sue was "Female protagonist I don't like", and Micaiah's defenders were generally more eloquent than the complainers. A lot of people that would have used Mary Sue ten years ago would say 'Woke' now. Same energy.

I don't remember having any strong feelings toward her back in the day. Radiant Dawn was at least three years old by the time I got to playing it. I really didn't like her during the blood contract stuff, but I also remember her quip about Sothe being gay for Ike was hilarious and unexpected. A rare introspective moment in Fire Emblem narrative, although I think the purpose was really to cool down players and say "look the Ike stuff is coming. Just be patient". My brain also perfectly remembers her battle animations. They weren't the usual hold your hand forward and fire flies past you, I remember she seemed like somebody who is both fighting and running away at the same time. Using battle animations to express characterization, that was pretty unique in an era before they came up with the Awakening Crit Quote Cut In. Also a light magic protagonist who can heal with her own health was cool and unique. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Zapp Branniglenn

[vanguard333]

11 hours ago, ♠Soul♠ said:

I remember like 10 years back, people generally disliked Micaiah in her original game. They hated how she was this "Mary Sue" character, and the acts she did in Part 3. I'm kind of surprised it's the exact opposite in Heroes, and it's clear she's really well recieved. I don't know if it's her design, or people haven't really played FE10... or just really shifted their mindset, or something.

I never once even understood the complaints that Micaiah is a Mary Sue, especially since most of those complainers would turn around and complain that she got overshadowed. If she got overshadowed by other characters, then she's clearly not a Mary Sue!

Anyway, I quite liked Micaiah and found her to be very interesting. A light mage lord that becomes something of a Joan-of-Arc for her homeland: a homeland that was the bad kingdom in the previous game, was very interesting and the story handled her character well for the most part.

[Eltosian Kadath]

The complaints about Micaiah were never really deserved, and I think that is the consensus people have come to about Micaiah over the years. I think I will quote what I said the last time I saw someone recalling those olden days when Micaiah got a lot of hate for being a "Mary Sue".

Quote

Yeah most of the arguments I see about Micaiah being a "Mary Sue" center around her sharing traits common to "Mary Sue" like characters, things like having extraordinary unearned powers, being overwhelming liked by in universe characters, having a secret special heritage, and having flaws that are not actually flaws (like her sense of mercy). All those common traits associated with a "Mary Sue", and there is evidence to create an argument for Micaiah sharing those traits, but she never crosses over into the core of what a makes a character a "Mary Sue", being too perfect to be interesting. Plenty of thing go wrong that are entirely her fault, and like you point out her gifts aren't enough to surpass established experts. Its a lot like calling a coconut a mammal because it has hair and produces milk.

 

[Florete]

It feels so vindicating to have actually liked Micaiah since I played Radiant Dawn back when it released and everyone hated her only to see so many people going the other way now.

[ping]

13 hours ago, Sasori said:

But mostly after replaying I found out that I did't dislike Micaiah or Sothe...I just disliked Micaiah AND Sothe. Because the whole:
Sothe: Don't do this Micaiah
Micaiah: I'm sorry Sothe but 😞
Sothe: Alright, BUT MUST PROTEC

That describes my attitude quite nicely, actually. Sothe's insistence that Micaiah that fragile-little-flower-must-protect always really annoyed me.

Although I find myself agreeing with @Shrimpolaris as well - I never really liked Micky as a whole even outside of her interactions with Sothe. Not to the detriment of RD's story (well, I do think that her blind loyalty in pt.3 goes against her characters, especially because she blindly agrees to kill sentient creatures that she sympathises with), but I can't really sympathise with her.

[eclipse]

Sorry, still don't like Micaiah.  I had a higher opinion of Ike, but he's pretty far from my favorite character.  Thanks to Edelgard, I have a better idea of why Micaiah rubs me wrong.  Which is that she's far too idealized for the role she's in.

[Baron the Shining Blade]

I kinda remember the hate in those days, mainly Mary Sue quarrels. I've never hated Micaiah, though I could somewhat understand the hate.

What I don't understand, is the hate for her actions in Part 3. Even now in this very thread. We all know damn well why Micaiah did what she did. So why is she herself being hated for actions which she clearly had no choice? Why not pour that hate onto the Senate for being responsible for essentially forcing her against her will, or onto Pelleas for foolishly signing the blood pact? It was either--as Shrimpolaris put it--follow every order no questions asked, or die. And all of Daein with her. And since she loves her country so, she had to obey the senate and fight the laguz, and I'm sure she hated every second of it.

Now I know Celica gets similar hate for the choices she made in SoV, but you have to understand the world they live in and what they go through personally as their respective games progress. We live in a biased modern world, and we take it all for granted. We play this gaming franchise set primarily in medieval times where things happen and foolish decisions are made that we ourselves would never make in the modern world because......we just know better. And for the most part, this is true. But Fire Emblem games (TMS#FE notwithstanding) are not set in the modern world, are they? If any of us actually lived in worlds like Tellius or Valentia, if we actually were in the shoes of someone like Celica or Micaiah (even if we retained our genders and bodies) with none of our modern-worldly knowledge or knowledge of how the games' plots unfold, well... frankly I'd love to see just how any of us would fare. I guarantee you plenty of people would make the same decisions that these two lords made, and then some.

 

With all that said, Micaiah is not my favorite FE character, but you know that by now. I really wasn't planning to defend her, even to a moderate degree. It's just that, if I were in her shoes, there's no guarantee I wouldn't make the same choices. There's no real way to know, though being of similarly squishy stature, I imagine I'd break really easily, both physically and mentally. After all, war is hell.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Baron the Shining Blade

[Shrimpica]

45 minutes ago, Baron the Shining Blade said:

What I don't understand, is the hate for her actions in Part 3. Even now in this very thread. We all know damn well why Micaiah did what she did. So why is she herself being hated for actions which she clearly had no choice? Why not pour that hate onto the Senate for being responsible for essentially forcing her against her will, or onto Pelleas for foolishly signing the blood pact? It was either--as Shrimpolaris put it--follow every order no questions asked, or die

My big problem with her in Part 3 is that she asked Pelleas too late. Way too late. When she was ordered to murder Laguz she just went with it, when she was asked to help Begnion she just went with it. She didn't know about the Pact at this point, and only got to know about it at the end of Part 3.

If she asked Pelleas earlier or got to know about the blood pact earlier before following all these orders, yeah i would like her quite a bit more. But with how it's currently is...

And it's not just Miccy that i feel that way towards, any character of that archetype (All for country/follow orders no matter or what or with little resistance) i really am not a big fan of. Blind loyalty towards one's country or leader is something i can never agree with or like.

As i said above, i never saw Miccy as a Mary Sue, and all in all i think her role in the story works quite well. Doesn't mean i have to like or symphatize with her.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Shrimpolaris

[♠Soul♠]

I found it funny when they used a Mary Sue arguement like "she can talk to animals" as if a literal shapeshifting being is the same thing. That was pretty silly.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I never really disliked Micaiah as a character, it was more of her as a unit and certain parts of her utilization in the story that I didn't like. And if past me ever had the thought that they made her a "Mary Sue," past me was wrong, because she isn't. Anyway, as a unit, I hate using her, she's just not good in any way. As for utilization in the story, I feel like she just kinda vanishes after Part 1. She has few parts in Part 3, and after that she's highjacked by Yune and is basically a non-factor. I always really liked her design, and the spotlight she gets in Part 1. It's a shame that they really missed the mark with her after that, though. Heroes sort of fixed it, but only in the small ways that Heroes can.

[Sunwoo]

I remember not being too fond of Micaiah back in the day, and to be honest I'm still not super big on her. That said, my biggest issue with her is probably an extension of RD itself. Part 1 always felt pretty weak to me, it came off as the writers trying to capture the general essence of the entire PoR game and failing to do so because they were working with less chapters, barebones supports, and less overall character development. If I ever saw her as Mary Sue-ish back in the day, it was because my standards for good characters were a lot higher. Not sure if it's a compliment to say I no longer see her as Sue-ish partly because the bar is so low nowadays, but I do agree now that she's not a Mary Sue. Just a character I feel wasn't explored to her full potential.

I'm not going to write up a full essay of my various issues with Micaiah and RD generally here, but I will say that my opinion on Micaiah improved because of Robin, Corrin, Byleth, and just the shittier writing of following games. For whatever issues I had with Micaiah and her writing (and RD's writing), it felt like every new game after that did it much worse and I could appreciate what they did do with Micaiah rather than what I felt they didn't go far enough in.

[ping]

8 hours ago, Baron the Shining Blade said:

What I don't understand, is the hate for her actions in Part 3. Even now in this very thread. We all know damn well why Micaiah did what she did. So why is she herself being hated for actions which she clearly had no choice? Why not pour that hate onto the Senate for being responsible for essentially forcing her against her will, or onto Pelleas for foolishly signing the blood pact? It was either--as Shrimpolaris put it--follow every order no questions asked, or die. And all of Daein with her. And since she loves her country so, she had to obey the senate and fight the laguz, and I'm sure she hated every second of it.

8 hours ago, Shrimpolaris said:

My big problem with her in Part 3 is that she asked Pelleas too late. Way too late. When she was ordered to murder Laguz she just went with it, when she was asked to help Begnion she just went with it. She didn't know about the Pact at this point, and only got to know about it at the end of Part 3.

To make things worse (for me, anyway) - Micky doesn't question Pelleas at all. Pelleas reveals the Blood Pact when Sothe is feeling particularly protective and threatens to remove Micaiah from the army. Micaiah just "senses" that Pelleas "means well" or something like that and then goes a-murderin' Laguz. Yes, it turns out that there wasn't a good choice for them to make, but Micaiah did not know that.

4 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I remember not being too fond of Micaiah back in the day, and to be honest I'm still not super big on her. That said, my biggest issue with her is probably an extension of RD itself. Part 1 always felt pretty weak to me, it came off as the writers trying to capture the general essence of the entire PoR game and failing to do so because they were working with less chapters, barebones supports, and less overall character development.

I always liked RD pt.1 a lot despite what you're describing because it feels like pale imitation of PoR. Because it is exactly that in-universe: PoR is the story of the rightful queen and her loyal, charismatic general - pt.1 is Izuka setting up the same story with Pelleas as the rightful king and Micaiah as his loyal, charismatic general. Except that everything then goes to shit, because Pelleas is a significantly weaker personality than Elincia (something that pt.2 then drives home), because Micaiah utterly outshines him in every aspect, and because Pelleas's Nr. 2 is that treacherous, evil bastard who sets everything on fire because his ego isn't sufficiently stroked.

---

N-thing that Micaiah isn't a Mary Sue at all and I hope that I never called her one in the past

Edited June 16, 2022 by ping

[Florete]

13 minutes ago, ping said:

To make things worse (for me, anyway) - Micky doesn't question Pelleas at all. Pelleas reveals the Blood Pact when Sothe is feeling particularly protective and threatens to remove Micaiah from the army. Micaiah just "senses" that Pelleas "means well" or something like that and then goes a-murderin' Laguz. Yes, it turns out that there wasn't a good choice for them to make, but Micaiah did not know that.

I never understood why this was so strange to people. She won him the throne. She's his general. She trusts him. When he gives her orders she follows them, even if she doesn't understand them, because she trusts that his decisions are made in the best interest of Daein. And hey, she was technically right about that.

[Shrimpica]

49 minutes ago, Florete said:

She trusts him.

Many of us don't see a good reason for that trust.

Especially not with Izuka existing.

And following your (army) supervisor/leader no matter what is a recipe for disaster, atleast in my opinion (and @ping as well)

But i can see that might be cultural dependent and seen as a normal thing in some cultures/countries. I can never come to terms with something  like that.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Shrimpolaris