Three Hopes General Discussion Thread

[ZanaLyrander]

39 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I agree completely. And if the theocracy was "on its way out" in any realistic timeframe, then why has it lasted for over a millenium? And having an immortal religious/political leader all but ensures the Church can and would seize control in the event that it sees its power waning. It has likely happened in such cycles already at several points in its history.

 

From my viewpoint, war wasn't just reasonable - it was necessary and inevitable. One can argue against Edelgard's means, but she's fighting an uphill battle after weighing the consequences of action with those of inaction.

Exactly. Rhea has been in power for over a thousand years. She pretty clearly has no intention of stepping down any time soon. She has maintained her power that long, and in fact her grip on Fodlan has only increased with time. She is deeply entrenched in the very fabric of Fodlan, an intrinsic part of Fodlan culture. No matter how you do it, removing her from power is not going to be an easy process, and she's going to fight you every step of the way through every underhanded tactic in the book. As we see in Three Hopes, the church is not above assassination. Between that and manipulating public opinion through lies and deceit, honestly a war is probably the only way Fodlan is ever going to be free of Rhea's control. And as long as Rhea is in control, equality, social mobility, cultural exchange and cooperation with countries outside Fodlan, and basically everything else the protagonists are striving for is going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

People see Edelgard's war as drastic and excessive, but I see more as that dog in the comic finally going "THIS IS NOT FINE! HOW DID I LET IT GET THIS BAD?!" Yeah, at this point, drastic options are all we have left, because we've let things go on like this for a literal millennium without stopping it, and now the problem is completely intractable and can't be fixed without violence.

Edited July 5, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Fabulously Olivier]

The fact that Faerghus is a Holy Kingdom encapsulates either incompetence by TWSITD or illustrates the degree of Rhea's chokehold on Fodlan. It has been hinted in lore that Loog's rebellion was made possible by Agarthan weaponry not unlike Edelgard's own. Meaning that Rhea was able to wrest control of a nation brought into being by her enemies.

[Burklight]

40 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Exactly. Rhea has been in power for over a thousand years. She pretty clearly has no intention of stepping down any time soon. She has maintained her power that long, and in fact her grip on Fodlan has only increased with time. She is deeply entrenched in the very fabric of Fodlan, an intrinsic part of Fodlan culture. No matter how you do it, removing her from power is not going to be an easy process, and she's going to fight you every step of the way through every underhanded tactic in the book. As we see in Three Hopes, the church is not above assassination. Between that and manipulating public opinion through lies and deceit, honestly a war is probably the only way Fodlan is ever going to be free of Rhea's control. And as long as Rhea is in control, equality, social mobility, cultural exchange and cooperation with countries outside Fodlan, and basically everything else the protagonists are striving for is going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

People see Edelgard's war as drastic and excessive, but I see more as that dog in the comic finally going "THIS IS NOT FINE! HOW DID I LET IT GET THIS BAD?!" Yeah, at this point, drastic options are all we have left, because we've let things go on like this for a literal millennium without stopping it, and now the problem is completely intractable and can't be fixed without violence.

There's no evidence that it would have worked, because that just isn't how the story went, but in Three Houses, I think Claude at least would have been able to do it with more precision and less collateral damage than Edelgard. At the very least, Claude wasn't comfortable cooperating with TWSITD which likely wasn't necessary.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Burklight

[ZanaLyrander]

13 minutes ago, Burklight said:

There's no evidence that it would have worked, because that just isn't how the story went. But in Three Houses, I think Claude at least would have been able to do it in a more precision and less collateral damage than Edelgard. At the very least, Claude wasn't comfortable cooperating with TWSITD which likely wasn't necessary.

Possibly. As you say, we'll never know since it never happened. But I do think Claude in Three Houses initially underestimated just how much of an impediment to his plan Rhea would have been. He was only just starting to uncover the level of shady shit the church had been up to prior to the war, he was investigating, but he'd only scratched the surface. I have to wonder if as he investigated further and learned more, perhaps he too would have come to the conclusion that the only way to make his dream a reality was removing Rhea from power, Edelgard just beat him to the punch. He's not a fan of the war in Three Houses, but he's definitely a fan of a Fodlan without Rhea in control, even if that would never have happened without Edelgard starting the war.

Spoiler

It didn't feel at all out of character to me when Claude decided to team up with Edelgard in Three Hopes to take down the Central Church. He needs Rhea gone for his plan to work just as much as Edelgard does. And he was willing to kill Rhea to accomplish that if necessary.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Burklight]

13 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

 

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It didn't feel at all out of character to me when Claude decided to team up with Edelgard in Three Hopes to take down the Central Church. He needs Rhea gone for his plan to work just as much as Edelgard does. And he was willing to kill Rhea to accomplish that if necessary.

 

Spoiler

Hard agree on that part. The only part of that I was slightly surprised by was the part where he didn't take out Edelgard in addition to Rhea the second he got the chance.

 

[Fabulously Olivier]

5 minutes ago, Burklight said:

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Hard agree on that part. The only part of that I was slightly surprised by was the part where he didn't take out Edelgard in addition to Rhea the second he got the chance.

 

Claude is an idealistic extremist at worst, not a dictator. He's not likely to take out someone who may further his goals if he doesn't have to.

[ZanaLyrander]

Honestly, it kinda fucks me up to realize that essentially everything wrong with Fodlan can be traced back to TWSITD or Rhea. The sum total of those two basically accounts for 99% or more of the problems with Fodlan. This entire continent is being ruined by two factions of immortal assholes who have decided they know better than everyone else, and are fighting over who gets to rule the world, all while referring to themselves as saviors.

Edited July 5, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Fabulously Olivier]

5 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Honestly, it kinda fucks me up to realize that essentially everything wrong with Fodlan can be traced back to TWSITD or Rhea. The sum total of those two basically accounts for 99% or more of the problems with Fodlan. This entire continent is being ruined by two factions of immortal assholes who have decided they know better than everyone else, and are fighting over who gets to rule the world, all while referring to themselves as saviors.

Spoiler

I do genuinely want to know the backstory behind the Nabateans and Agarthans though. Everything we have implies that at some point, the Agarthans were the native people and were unjustly invaded by the Nabateans. And yet the story never establishes due sympathy where it could.

 

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

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I do genuinely want to know the backstory behind the Nabateans and Agarthans though. Everything we have implies that at some point, the Agarthans were the native people and were unjustly invaded by the Nabateans. And yet the story never establishes due sympathy where it could.

 

Spoiler

It frustrates me that TWSITD are basically just doing the exact same shit as the Church of Seiros, trying to rule the world in secret, misleading and deceiving the world, treating the humans of the world as beasts/children who don't know any better... it'd be a perfect morally grey conflict if they didn't make TWSITD so fucking cartoonishly evil in their methodology. Their goals are no more fucked up than Rhea's, but while most of Rhea's actions are morally grey, benevolent yet patronizing at best, really shady at worst, TWSITD are just fucking pitch black from the word go. Like, this could be a more even-handed, complex conflict, but instead we have a conflict between a morally dubious, two-faced, possibly mentally unstable theocratic dictator on one side, and fucking Satan on the other.

 

[Use the Falchion]

3 hours ago, ZanaLyrander said:

This statement bothers me, because on the one hand, I agree with it, and think starting a war is a bit drastic, but on the other hand... what 'better way' is there? Rhea basically controls all of Fodlan. I honestly can not envision a non-violent way to remove her from power and hold her accountable for her crimes. And any attempt to do so basically forces you into direct conflict with the Kingdom. Rhea has taken great pains to create a stable, unchanging system by which there is no real method of replacing her, her system is self-perpetuating, her edicts written in stone and unquestionable, because they're taken as the word of the goddess.

It's something that bugs me about the story of Three Houses and Three Hopes. Both Claude and Dimitri agree with Edelgard's goals, but not her methods. Yet in terms of dealing with the central church and the shady shit they do, neither of them seem to have an alternative method. It's really easy to point fingers and say 'you're doing this wrong', much harder to say 'here's what you should be doing instead'.

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Even Claude basically does the same thing as Edelgard in Three Hopes, but people don't give him as much shit, because he's just taking advantage of a war someone else started rather than being the instigator.

 

The Empire had officially separated from the Church and was doing its own thing for decades before Edelgard waged war. The Eastern Church was weak in power and could easily be ignored if desired. Just do that, ignore the church and/or exile in your region. Claim that since it's in XYZ country, it will stand to obey XYZ country's rules. The Church doesn't like that, then they can pull out. Edelgard has the power to do this as Emperor, and as head of the Alliance, Claude could in theory move to make the Alliance accepting of other religions. A war isn't needed for those changes, but a desire for independence and an active eye against prejudice is. 

Dimitri can't do that because:

1) His people are deeply religious as a culture.

2) His legitimacy as a king - which is deeply tied to his psychology as a person and his ability to enact change - all depend on the Church of Seiros recognizing him as the rightful ruler. 

But that doesn't mean he can't change the culture of his kingdom within his lifetime, as the Three Hopes quite frankly openly states and shows. 

 

4 hours ago, Burklight said:

I think the easiest way to sum up what Rhea is would be "relatively benevolent theocratic dictator." If you had to live under the just about any theocratic dictatorship throughout human history or the Church of Serios, you'd probably pick the Church of Serios. That doesn't make it NOT a theocratic dictatorship. It's just the best case scenario of what that could look like.

That's fair. You don't cross her, and she's fine. You cross her, and then things are about to get incredibly messy. The Church doesn't have a problem with non-believers and foreigners working for them or within their lands. Shamir clearly doesn't believe and Catherine openly states in Three Hopes that she doesn't have a religious bone in her body. Duscur is within Fodlan, and despite being polytheistic, seemed to have at least a working relationship with the Kingdom and by proxy Fodlan at large before the Tragedy. Cyril practically worships Rhea, not Seiros.  What the Church does have a problem with is heretics and defilers... Then again, the Goddess that they worship has a similar mindset, so take that as you will. 

[B.Leu]

2 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

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I do genuinely want to know the backstory behind the Nabateans and Agarthans though. Everything we have implies that at some point, the Agarthans were the native people and were unjustly invaded by the Nabateans. And yet the story never establishes due sympathy where it could.

 

You know, I would have enjoyed if TH had in message in the background about society, religions, and other system, being becoming corrupted with time.

Imagine if you discovered that the Agarthans from back then truly had genuinely good reasons to fight and were fully in the right, post and pre Sothis nuking, but the time spent underground along with the bitterness crushed them psychologically, or if Seiros really had good intentions back then, but all the lies of her own making started to be too much for her, it would have made an interesting dynamic, and would made them, in essence, two sides of the same coin. Same with Nemesis, or keep him evil I dunno.

Of course the game spit on that, the Agarthan and the Church never had any good intentions in the first place, and they are more than happy to forgot and try to make us forgot the last one.

11 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

and Catherine openly states in Three Hopes that she doesn't have a religious bone in her body

Considering that she say to Shamir something among the lines of "if it were anyone else, I would have killed him", when Shamir stated that she "didn't get" the religion, this seems just strange.

[Etrurian emperor]

3 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

The fact that Faerghus is a Holy Kingdom encapsulates either incompetence by TWSITD or illustrates the degree of Rhea's chokehold on Fodlan. It has been hinted in lore that Loog's rebellion was made possible by Agarthan weaponry not unlike Edelgard's own. Meaning that Rhea was able to wrest control of a nation brought into being by her enemies.

Slitherer incompetence seems a good explanation since they're practically joke villains. It wouldn't be hard to believe Loog pulling an Edelgard on them and ditching the jokers the moment he got what he wanted. Or its possible the Slitherer influence seeped mostly into the west which consists almost exclusively of evil houses while the eastern houses leaned more to the church.

[Use the Falchion]

5 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Considering that she say to Shamir something among the lines of "if it were anyone else, I would have killed him", when Shamir stated that she "didn't get" the religion, this seems just strange.

The support in question focuses mostly on Rhea, which is what the part you're implying is really about. 

Emphasis mine:

Quote

Shamir: You must really love worshiping the church. Or is it just Rhea?

Catherine: Lady Rhea. You're the only one in the knights who doesn't address her with the proper respect. It's not just that I worship Lady Rhea. I respect her, admire her, revere her...

Shamir: I don't get the Seiros religion. Or Rhea.

Catherine: Shamir. If you were anyone else, I would cut you down for saying that. She saved your life.

Shamir: She did, and that's why I fight for her. Doesn't mean I worship her.

Catherine: You never change. You're so stubborn.

Shamir: You're the stubborn one. When we're on missions related to Rhea, it's like you're wearing blinders. Now that she's been rescued, your carelessness is probably just going to get you killed. Wanting to help her is admirable, but you'll be of no use if you get yourself killed.

 

 

[Tediz64]

23 hours ago, Sire said:

-- I also enjoy Rodrigue's personal, as it also increases the range and damage of attacks, but this time relying on timed button presses. While I personally prefer the hitcount so I can just spam away, Rodrigue's slower and calculated approach is also nice. I guess I just had issues with Monica's personal due to the moveset of Mages, as I find Archers (as Shamir) and Cavaliers (as Rodrigue) to work well with the rhythm skills. Alternatively, it may just be my experience playing the game.
=== I do wonder if there's a different in attack speed by spamming buttons versus going with the rhythm. Would be interesting if they were actually the same speed regardless of button mashing.

 

They aren't actually the same pace (give or take by 2 second). I recorded a video using the switch and trimmed it down. One video where Monica did her whole y-string while pressing the button as fast as possible and another while doing the rhythm and she ended her attack sequence with a difference of about 1.5 seconds of time according the timer on Switch trimming section.

The trick to Monica's rhythm is the red ring. You remember the fishing mini-game in Three Houses? How it started off from the edge of the screen and got smaller and how you had to press right when it overlapped with the target ring. In Three Hope, if you attack with Y using Monica a little dim red ring appears in front of her based off the direction she is attacking and if you spam the button on your controller it'll keep turning purple/black to show you failed. However between each button press if you wait for that red ring to get a little smaller (and it also gets brighter at the right time) and then press Y, you'll successfully keep spamming her personal ability. You can see the ring clear in the same fashion it did during the fishing mini game by glittering and popping. Monica will also keep releasing what looks like musical red notes all over the place. 

Monica's attack sequence is probably the most glittery and flashy of all the magic users but it sure makes a difference if you use her right. Her range is large since it keeps exploding and from my observation she keeps releasing fire/dark element. I just thought I'd share this info with you in case you wanted to give her another go. 

[B.Leu]

18 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

The support in question focuses mostly on Rhea, which is what the part you're implying is really about. 

Emphasis mine:

 

 

Hmm, it seems to be both the church and Rhea since she first put emphasis on both at first. Or maybe it's really just Rhea.

Guess you don't need a religion to be fanatic I guess.

[Use the Falchion]

26 minutes ago, B.Leu said:

Hmm, it seems to be both the church and Rhea since she first put emphasis on both at first. Or maybe it's really just Rhea.

Guess you don't need a religion to be fanatic I guess.

I'd still go with Rhea in this context, given that the Church of Seiros isn't discussed much before or after that comment while Rhea is. 

And yeah, fanaticism requires neither religion nor logic. The former may help, but it's just as easily used as an excuse as it is a reason. Catherine's fanaticism is tied to a person who showed her mercy and grace twice over. It's not unlike Dedue's, something that they both acknowledge in their B-Support in Three Hopes. 

 

[Etrurian emperor]

On some level I think its somewhat amusing that Byleth gets depicted as an almighty Lu Bu on par with the big lads like Count Bergliez, Edelgard or Rhea

Byleth just never struck me as particularly powerful in Three Houses. Compared to the various house leaders they even came across as the weaker one. Maybe its due to how the plot stresses Byleth's importance as anything other than a Warrior. In Verdant wind they're important because Claude wants to prop them up as a symbol, and in the other routes Dimitri and Edelgard wants them as a life coach, not as an allmighty Warrior. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

48 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

On some level I think its somewhat amusing that Byleth gets depicted as an almighty Lu Bu on par with the big lads like Count Bergliez, Edelgard or Rhea

Byleth just never struck me as particularly powerful in Three Houses. Compared to the various house leaders they even came across as the weaker one. Maybe its due to how the plot stresses Byleth's importance as anything other than a Warrior. In Verdant wind they're important because Claude wants to prop them up as a symbol, and in the other routes Dimitri and Edelgard wants them as a life coach, not as an allmighty Warrior. 

I mean, canonically, Byleth is probably one of, if not the strongest characters in the franchise. They wield the most powerful hero's relic, they were already a feared mercenary, and then they gain the ability to rewind time and cut through space on a whim. When you factor in the time powers, they are probably even more powerful than Ike.

[Seazas]

I'm not with the criticism over Dimitri. It makes no sense for Dimitri to have his killer boar arc here. Three Hopes is meant to be an add-on to 3H not a retread.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Seazas

[Fabulously Olivier]

One character who has surprised me in AG is Sylvain. They toned down or at least didn't focus on his fuckboy aspect, while giving his more idealistic side a chance to shine. Maybe that isn't interesting, but it is more likeable, and it makes him feel like a new character.

[B.Leu]

On 7/7/2022 at 1:14 AM, Fabulously Olivier said:

I mean, canonically, Byleth is probably one of, if not the strongest characters in the franchise. They wield the most powerful hero's relic, they were already a feared mercenary, and then they gain the ability to rewind time and cut through space on a whim. When you factor in the time powers, they are probably even more powerful than Ike.

He start the game with slightly higher stats than anyone, making him a sort of Jeigan, or rather Oifey. Except because of his relic, time power, and the fact that he can get stronger, that doesn't matter much. Even if you don't feed him, he still stay good. Stupid Stando power.

Although Ragnell = Sword of Seals => Sword of the Creator. Greatest technological weapon my ass, it's just a sword whip with 20 uses, no stat boost. "Merely" one of the best Weapon Arts. Thunderbrand could be seen as a better weapon. Stupid cool Brave effect.

He IS powerful, but I do think that is Lu Bu status is ridiculous.

On 7/7/2022 at 1:42 AM, Seazas said:

I'm not with the criticism over Dimitri. It makes no sense for Dimitri to have his killer boar arc here. Three Hopes is meant to be an add-on to 3H not a retread.

I completely agree with you on this, Dimitri doesn't have his mind break moment when he decide that a kid is the source of all his problems, and instead discover that another, much closer person is one of the cause.
The game made it pretty clear from the demo that it wouldn't be a rehash of Three Houses, and it's great.

Edited July 8, 2022 by B.Leu

[Anomalocaris]

I've started my second playthrough, this time doing Golden Wildfire, and noticed something odd.

Claude has a listed support with Dimitri.

Now, I don't know the full details of Golden Wildfire, but I assume you can't actually recruit Dimitri. Are there support conversations exclusive to character combinations only possible on NG+?

[Medeus]

2 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

I've started my second playthrough, this time doing Golden Wildfire, and noticed something odd.

Claude has a listed support with Dimitri.

Now, I don't know the full details of Golden Wildfire, but I assume you can't actually recruit Dimitri. Are there support conversations exclusive to character combinations only possible on NG+?

Spoiler

It's the conversation they have at the camp of the secret Abyss Chapter.

 

[Anomalocaris]

2 minutes ago, Medeus said:

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It's the conversation they have at the camp of the secret Abyss Chapter.

 

Oh, that's all? Guess I expected something more.

[ThePrimeOne]

I finished all three routes a couple of days ago, and now that I've had time to take it all in, I still love this game as much as I do Three Houses. There are some quirks with the writing and story that I LOVE and some I'm not too hot on, but there's nothing from the latter that really impedes my overall enjoyment. It's undeniably the best Nintendo Musou as well, imo.

Notably about GW in particular is-

Spoiler

That it's a genuinely unique route compared to VW in Three Houses. We actually see a different aspect to Claude's character that doesn't get that much shine in Three Houses, the Federation being a thing, and I LOVE the scene with Shez and Judith reprimanding him after Ailell. A lot of people on Twitter I noticed don't like it, but Claude as a character feels far more interesting and involved with the plot this time around, which is so, so good.

Another thing I loved about SB-

 

Spoiler

Was everything about the Torment of the Eagle and Lion. The set-up and the cutscene leading into chapter genuinely gave me chills (and still does), and the battle itself was undoubtedly one of the most entertaining chapters in the entire game. And while I didn't get any of the extra spicy stuff with Byleth and Claude betraying the Empire, it was still so good imo.

One thing in AG specifically that's still kind of a pet peeve is-

Spoiler

Miklan getting killed by Gwendal. I really think was so much potential behind having Miklan return and not be a one-off, one-note character, but no, they just off him anyway 😕 Imo, if he died later in part 2- maybe during Garreg Mach -after we've gotten more time to see him on-screen and interacting with other characters, his death would've hit harder. I think I would've been far more OK with that.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by ThePrimeOne