Three Houses timelines VS. Three Hopes timelines

[Mark the Tactician]

So the title is essentially a question of which outcome in the war is the most favorable between the timelines.

A considerable amount of changes take place due to Shez's presence in the game, not the least of which involve TWSITD being exposed early on, and the war itself getting an early start.... and having played all three routes in Three Hopes, it had me wondering.... did Shez's survival at the very start ultimately change things for the better on all three paths compared to Byleth coming to the monastery originally, or should he have perished as he likely had in Three Houses?

I'm trying to look at it as Crimson Flower VS. Scarlet Blaze, Azure Moon VS. Azure Gleam, and Verdant Wind VS. Golden Wildfire. 

I welcome anyone's thoughts on this topic.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Well, that's going to depend on what one values.

 

Spoiler

Personally, I'd consider Three Hopes GW and SB to very much be best-case scenarios for Fodlan because they result in the ultimate destruction of both TWSITD and the Church (or at least Rhea). Probably giving the edge to GW here because Claude combines the best aspects of both Edelgard's socially-progressive ideology with Dimitri's racially/diplomatically-progressive one.

 

[DefyingFates]

2 hours ago, Mark the Tactician said:

and the war itself getting an early start...

Actually the war starts during the Academy Arc in Three Houses; it just stagnates until Byleth returns. So in that regard, Hopes may be better for the average citizen since the war is shorter. Apart from that, it's difficult to tell which timeline is better since none of Hopes' routes have proper endings. It has a lower (named) body count than Houses, so there's definitely that.

[ZanaLyrander]

That's a solid point, the war is about six years long in Three Houses. It's... a bit unclear how long it lasts in Three Hopes since there's no real calendar system. It certainly seems shorter, but there's no way to know for sure I guess. 

[TheHBK]

What’s shown in 3H is arguably better. Shorter war. Less mandatory deaths.

That being said, all routes end with some form of "the war will still rage on for years", so there’s that.

[vanguard333]

5 hours ago, TheHBK said:

What’s shown in 3H is arguably better. Shorter war. Less mandatory deaths.

That being said, all routes end with some form of "the war will still rage on for years", so there’s that.

Shortening "Three Hopes" to "3H" would probably create confusion as both games are "3H": Three Hopes and Three Houses.

The war does continue on in Three Hopes, but it has only been going on for two years as opposed to five, so we don't actually know which timelines actually have a shorter war.

[King Marth 64]

I did noticed some differences between Three Hopes and Three Houses:

Spoiler

1. Jeralt wasn't killed by Kroyna since he's still alive through the 2 year arc.
2. The Church did rescued the real Monica and that also gave information about Tomas was the kidnapper that exposed to Solon's identity.
3. Kroyna gets killed by any of the army that Shez was on instead of Solon himself.
4. Kostas was taken out earlier before he returned to face the other students that Byleth instructed.
5. Most of the students' fathers did appeared in Three Hopes and did helped out the army while they were mentioned in Three Houses.
6. I don't think Byleth was seen nor mentioned in the Academy Arc.

I don't know if Shez's timeline that happened in Three Hopes was have something to do with when Byleth was saving Edelgard from Kostas that Sothis stopped time and prevent Byleth getting cut from the axe? Maybe Byleth in Shez's timeline was probably got injured by Kostas while saving Edelgard that possibility didn't straight up killed him/her and that's possibly the reason why we haven't seen Byleth attended the Academy as a Professor in Three Hopes?

[TheHBK]

4 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Shortening "Three Hopes" to "3H" would probably create confusion as both games are "3H": Three Hopes and Three Houses.

The war does continue on in Three Hopes, but it has only been going on for two years as opposed to five, so we don't actually know which timelines actually have a shorter war.

Yes. In Hopes, the war will last an undetermined time. What we see is shorter than in Houses. But there's the big unknown of the follow up.

Edited July 13, 2022 by TheHBK

[whase]

4 hours ago, King Marth 64 said:

I did noticed some differences between Three Hopes and Three Houses:

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1. Jeralt wasn't killed by Kroyna since he's still alive through the 2 year arc.
2. The Church did rescued the real Monica and that also gave information about Tomas was the kidnapper that exposed to Solon's identity.
3. Kroyna gets killed by any of the army that Shez was on instead of Solon himself.
4. Kostas was taken out earlier before he returned to face the other students that Byleth instructed.
5. Most of the students' fathers did appeared in Three Hopes and did helped out the army while they were mentioned in Three Houses.
6. I don't think Byleth was seen nor mentioned in the Academy Arc.

I don't know if Shez's timeline that happened in Three Hopes was have something to do with when Byleth was saving Edelgard from Kostas that Sothis stopped time and prevent Byleth getting cut from the axe? Maybe Byleth in Shez's timeline was probably got injured by Kostas while saving Edelgard that possibility didn't straight up killed him/her and that's possibly the reason why we haven't seen Byleth attended the Academy as a Professor in Three Hopes?

I think you may have missed some points in the beginning of the story. (Though it might be your slightly confusing grammar that's making me misunderstand you, if so I apologise.)

In Three Hopes (W3H) the lords find Shez on their way to Remire Village and then take out Kostas. In Three Houses (3H) the lords don't walk into Shez (for whatever reason) and get to Remire Village, where they find Byleth, and fight Kostas after that. In W3H Byleth never gets brought to the monastery, and neither does Jeralt. As Jeralts Mercenaries were never found by the church in this universe, they simply kept doing mercenary work.

The fact that in Shez's path TWSitD were unmasked a lot faster makes me think this was the better path. Events like the Calamity in Remire Village seemingly never happened in this timeline. The amount of suffering during the war is too unclear to really comment on. Taking things into account things like the stalemates in 3H, or the fact that most commanders never seem to die in W3H but retreat, it's just impossible to figure out which war is worse.

[NoNameAtAll]

14 hours ago, whase said:

In Three Hopes (W3H) the lords find Shez on their way to Remire Village and then take out Kostas. In Three Houses (3H) the lords don't walk into Shez (for whatever reason) and get to Remire Village, where they find Byleth, and fight Kostas after that.

In the context of Three Houses, the lords don't walk into Shez, because they're dead by that point. Keep in mind the lords were in Remire six months after the prologue in Hopes. So if Hopes and Houses were in line with one another up to the point Arval saves Shez, then yeah. Shez would've been long dead by that point.

 

[whase]

4 hours ago, NoNameAtAll said:

In the context of Three Houses, the lords don't walk into Shez, because they're dead by that point. Keep in mind the lords were in Remire six months after the prologue in Hopes. So if Hopes and Houses were in line with one another up to the point Arval saves Shez, then yeah. Shez would've been long dead by that point.

 

Do we know this for a fact? Or is that speculation? After all couldn't Arval have saved Shez as well in in 3H? Shez could have just been lost in another part of those mountains, it's not like this first fight was important enough for Byleth to bring up in 3H.

Could be I'm missing something though, please let me know if that's the case.

[ZanaLyrander]

5 hours ago, whase said:

Do we know this for a fact? Or is that speculation? After all couldn't Arval have saved Shez as well in in 3H? Shez could have just been lost in another part of those mountains, it's not like this first fight was important enough for Byleth to bring up in 3H.

Could be I'm missing something though, please let me know if that's the case.

It's definitely speculation, because Shez doesn't appear in Three Houses, so we have no idea where they are in that timeline, or if they even exist. It's entirely possible that Shez's very existence is the diverging point between the two timelines.

[Etrurian emperor]

The new timeline is probably better for the Kingdom even if you don't choose Azure Gleam. In the main timeline the Kingdom has five full years of complete collapse, civil war, Imperial occupation and Cornelia's misrule. Even in Azure Moon where the Kingdom ends out on top it will still have been in ruins for five whole years. 

In the new timeline the Kingdom is spared from all that. 

[ZanaLyrander]

4 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The new timeline is probably better for the Kingdom even if you don't choose Azure Gleam. In the main timeline the Kingdom has five full years of complete collapse, civil war, Imperial occupation and Cornelia's misrule. Even in Azure Moon where the Kingdom ends out on top it will still have been in ruins for five whole years. 

In the new timeline the Kingdom is spared from all that. 

If anything, that gave more credence to everyone in Azure Gleam whenever they talked about how bad things would be if Dimitri died. Because in Azure Moon, we saw how bad things were in the Kingdom when Dimitri went feral and they had no king for five years. It wasn't good. Just having Dimitri, mostly sane and in charge, was a very big positive change for the Kingdom between the two timelines.

Edited July 14, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Medeus]

On 7/12/2022 at 3:11 PM, Fabulously Olivier said:

Well, that's going to depend on what one values.

 

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Personally, I'd consider Three Hopes GW and SB to very much be best-case scenarios for Fodlan because they result in the ultimate destruction of both TWSITD and the Church (or at least Rhea). Probably giving the edge to GW here because Claude combines the best aspects of both Edelgard's socially-progressive ideology with Dimitri's racially/diplomatically-progressive one.

 

Spoiler

GW doesn't really deal with TWSITD as the only one we see get killed onscreen is Solon. Myson and Bias are never killed in that route, and IIRC Kronya, Thales, and Cleobulus are left ambiguous, so that's four major leaders and one big player for their team still left alive and active. Granted, some of their deaths still could've played out like in other routes like Kronya's, but considering we see Solon and Bias running around all the way up until the pre-Abyss Chapter that means at least one of them is confirmed to be alive and I doubt some like Thales were dispatched that easily. So, they're still very much a threat and with the war going on for years as stated in the ending that gives them plenty of time to pull strings and interfere as they please.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Medeus

[Seazas]

15 minutes ago, Medeus said:

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GW doesn't really deal with TWSITD as the only one we see get killed onscreen is Solon. Myson and Bias are never killed in that route, and IIRC Kronya, Thales, and Cleobulus are left ambiguous, so that's four major leaders and one big player for their team still left alive and active. Granted, some of their deaths still could've played out like in other routes like Kronya's, but considering we see Solon and Bias running around all the way up until the pre-Abyss Chapter that means at least one of them is confirmed to be alive and I doubt some like Thales were dispatched that easily. So, they're still very much a threat and with the war going on for years as stated in the ending that gives them plenty of time to pull strings and interfere as they please.

 

They're not worth any worry as they already got thoroughly exposed. It's impossible for them to have the same puppet string pulling they once had because all 3 major factions stand against them. What made Thales so effective is that he could hide behind Edelgard.

[Medeus]

17 minutes ago, Seazas said:

They're not worth any worry as they already got thoroughly exposed. It's impossible for them to have the same puppet string pulling they once had because all 3 major factions stand against them. What made Thales so effective is that he could hide behind Edelgard.

Spoiler

 

That exposure doesn't mean they're not still a threat. Them summoning bandits back in the Alliance was enough to get Claude and friends to drop everything, including their near victory over the Kingdom, and rush back and cause the war to drag on longer, and that was their worst plan of the game. Additionally, all three major factions are against them, but they're not all allied by the end of any route, so as long as they're distracted with each other that gives TWSITD free reign to operate and mess with any particular faction they desire.

As far as the story is concerned, they're still a problem and they remain so by the end of GW as they're never dealt with in any meaningful capacity. 

 

 

[vikingsfan92]

On 7/12/2022 at 3:11 PM, Fabulously Olivier said:

Well, that's going to depend on what one values.

 

  Hide contents

Personally, I'd consider Three Hopes GW and SB to very much be best-case scenarios for Fodlan because they result in the ultimate destruction of both TWSITD and the Church (or at least Rhea). Probably giving the edge to GW here because Claude combines the best aspects of both Edelgard's socially-progressive ideology with Dimitri's racially/diplomatically-progressive one.

 

Some spoilers here

Spoiler

 

While I haven't finished GW or AG yet personally I think Claude being prince of Almarya thing kind of leans towards SB being better for Fodland specifically. Mainly because if Claude becomes king of Almarya and has to deal with ruling Fodland at the same time thats probably a lot for him to handle by himself tbh.  Especially during times of Fodland unification where it would require a more looking after than normal. I consider Edelgard and Claude to be equal as rulers but I do think if Claude tries to handle both countries at once it could go wrong as that it is a lot more work than focusing just on Fodland. Plus it could end up in situation where if he tries to fix both countries he could be accused of playing favorites toward Fodland which could undermine his work sadly.

Its established in SB with Byleth alive that Edelgard and Claude can work together and also in CF going back to the original three houses if you spare Claude he makes hints that he would like to establish positive relations with Edelgard diplomatically while he goes back to Almarya as a reason why he should be spared. So I kind of feel there is a strong argument that it is ironically easier and possibly better for Claude to achieve his goal of Almayran/ Fodland unity if he loses in the three hopes timeline at very least. I like Claude a lot but he is in pretty unique situation with the whole being Almaryian royalty thing giving him a fall back outside of Fodland.

 

 

[Seazas]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:15 AM, Medeus said:

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That exposure doesn't mean they're not still a threat. Them summoning bandits back in the Alliance was enough to get Claude and friends to drop everything, including their near victory over the Kingdom, and rush back and cause the war to drag on longer, and that was their worst plan of the game. Additionally, all three major factions are against them, but they're not all allied by the end of any route, so as long as they're distracted with each other that gives TWSITD free reign to operate and mess with any particular faction they desire.

As far as the story is concerned, they're still a problem and they remain so by the end of GW as they're never dealt with in any meaningful capacity. 

 

 

Spoiler

We don't really know that tho. Route events still exist even in other routes. Reminder, Thales and co are still after the Empire and we know that Edelgard can cleanly defeat them when given a chance to. Claude never really took down the Empire.

 

[Medeus]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:15 AM, Seazas said:

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We don't really know that tho. Route events still exist even in other routes. Reminder, Thales and co are still after the Empire and we know that Edelgard can cleanly defeat them when given a chance to. Claude never really took down the Empire.

 

Spoiler

 

You're right, we don't, and by that same logic we can't guarantee that any of the events that led to those like Kronya's death certainly happened on GW. Unlike examples like Glouster's fake surrender such events are never referred to in the route and thus we can't assume that TWSITD had members other then Solon die across its events.

In the end all we have is speculation and guesswork, and that is not enough to assume that TWSITD were fully disposed of and no longer a threat. In fact, we may have more evidence to the contrary considering we see Bias alive in the chapter before the Abyss and the confrontation with the Chruch.