Preliminary Evaluation of Abilities

[Archeleon]

First of all I am looking for feedback on these as I want to learn more about the game and people's experiences with each ability. These are by no means definitive so if you disagree with the ratings please provide your insight. I believe we can all benefit from discussing their value.

These are based on my experiences playing through hard and some of maddening. I like getting characters to a point in which they can solo any map effectively. I play very offensively and hardly use Guard and only Dodge when I see incoming attacks.

Edit: Adjusted based on feedback.

A = Top Picks, highly recommended for the majority of builds.

Spoiler

Absorb Defense	--
Absorb Resistance	--
Absorb Str/Mag	Maxed out it can be a 100% damage increase.
Big Game Hunter	25-30% damage when it counts.
Boost Critical	More crit more better.
Dual Onslaught	100% pick. Increases damage and lets you use both Physical and Magical attacks effectively.
Impossible Feat	Huge boost but requires good vulnerary management.
Offensive Tactics	Free damage.
Rally Delux	Delux indeed.
Solitary Stand	35% free damage in most common scenarios.
Undaunted	Defense for Offense. Penalty is very mild
Weapon Prowess	Free damage with the proper weapon.

B = Good picks, these may need an ability synergy to shine.

Spoiler

Def +10	--
Goddess's Vessel	Harder requirement to sustain than Creation.
Lifeforce	Huge boost but requires good vulnerary management.
Luna/Flare	100% pick. Even with "low" Lck stat the damage boost is significant.
Proficient Witstrike	Strong on high Mag units.
Rally Str/Mag	--
Res +10	--
Seeker of Greatness	Varies in effectiveness but still strong.
Stormer of the Land	Separate damage mitigation.
Str/Mag +10	Roughly 17% damage increase.
The Creation	Pretty easy requirement to meet and sustain.
Weaponbreakers	Allows you to adjust battle advantages. Limited by enemy type restrictions.
Wild Abandon	Defense for Offense. Penalty is mitigated with good play.

C = Situational, the bulk of abilities, these are what tend to differentiate builds.

Spoiler

Absorb Charm	--
Absorb Dexterity	Not knowing the Dex to Crit convertion/Critical Rush boost makes it a bit hard to judge.
Absorb Luck	Luna/Flare access can make this very strong.
Absorb Speed	Strong on Awakening, CA/Spell centric builds.
Aegis	Not as much coverage as Pavise but useful when it applies.
Aggression	Requires some set-up but is quite good.
Archer's Ploy	Better on Bow Knight than other Archers.
Archer's Wisdom	Better on Bow Knight than other Archers.
Armored Cavalry's Wisdom	--
Armsthrift	Can be good on CA/Spell based builds.
Battle Instincts	Requires a bit of management but still good.
Brawler's Wisdom	Can deplete a guage quickly if you have 3 Fists available.
Burst of Resolve	Quite significant and crit stacking is already good.
Burst of Valor	Quite significant and crit stacking is already good.
Concentration	Makes hit count builds easier to play.
Covenant	The drawback can be mitigated with good play.
Darting Blow	--
Def +5	--
Dex +10	Can be good on Dex builds.
Domineer	About half your enemies are on foot.
Essence of Element	Effectiveness varies wildly. Increases AoE and upgrades elemental effect chance.
Exalted Breath	Good with a self-heal build.
Fiendish Blow	Effectiveness varies wildly. Units that can abuse Ice and Dark will see better results.
Flyswatter	Great on classes that Launch enemies often.
Forethought	Great on units that spam CA/Spells
Gauge Assists	Moderate increases. Build dependent.
Goddess's Blessing	--
Harmonious Specials	The only Vanguard ability worth using. Build dependent.
Heaviest Hitter	Better than the standard counterpart.
King's Ploy	More strikes is good.
Knight's Wisdom	--
Leader's Ploy	A second volley is good.
Lifetaker	Requirement is not bad since you are usually going after commanders.
Mage Knight's Ploy	The effect seems strong but the gauge takes long to build up.
Mage's Wisdom	The speed-up is also noticeable.
Max HP +1500	--
Mercenary's Ploy	You weave the Action for optimal play.
Mercenary's Wisdom	You weave the Action for optimal play.
Nullify Flying Effect	--
Nullify Magic	--
Pact	The drawback can be mitigated with good play.
Pass	--
Pavise	Great on high Dex units to supplement defense.
Pegasus Knight's Wisdom	--
Perspective	Varies a lot depending on map. A win-more ability.
Piercing Cry	Good on classes that build hit count
Piercing Gaze	Good on classes that build hit count
Priest's Wisdom	A lot of Bishop damage depends on the Action.
Rally Def	--
Rally Dex	--
Rally Lck	--
Rally Res	--
Rally Spd	--
Rejuvenation	Good on classes that build hit count
Renewal	Small heal every 3 seconds. Consistent.
Renewed Carnage	--
Res +5	--
Saint's Power	--
Serene Stance	Worse than Stalwart but could be useful in some encounters.
Sol	Not a terrible requirement but Lck dependent.
Spd +10	Can be good on Spd builds.
Special Dance	Can be difficult to use but fairly strong.
Specials Master	Depends on how often the unit can use Specials.
Stalwart Stance	Niche but can be useful due to weapon coverage.
Stat Catalysts	--
Str/Mag +5	Roughly 8.5% damage increase.
Thief's Wisdom	Can be useful if the unit has a weak spell list.
True Awakening	--
Underdog	Good value in maddening difficulty.
United Front	Requirement is harder than it seems, allies have to be very close. 8% per ally.
Warrior's Ploy	Decent damage boost if the enemy lives long enough. Works on dismounted Wyvern classes.
Warrior's Wisdom	Seems guaranteed at 3 bars. Works with dismounted Wyvern classes.

D = Niche, usable in specific builds.

Spoiler

Brawler's Ploy	Seems about a 1/3 chance to activate. Not too good.
Carpe Diem	--
Counterbreak	Trigger requirement makes it unreliable.
Cyclical Awakening	Temporary increase that only kicks in after you have been in Awakening.
Cyclical Specials	Temporary increase. Slightly more useful since Specials are quicker to get.
Death Blow	Roughly a 2 second increase. Mileage will vary, some may need it and some won't.
Defiant Str/Mag	Potentially a 30+% damage boost.
Driven Spirit	Requires Awakening. Only viable in some builds.
Elemental Assists	Adds a moderate effect. Useless on classes that already have elemental attacks.
Emperor's Ploy	Doesn't seem all that impactful in practice.
Expert Guard	--
Gather	--
Heavy Hitter	Roughly 33% chance. There are more reliable ways of producing the gauge.
Howl	--
Ironclad	--
Mage's Ploy	Allows some units to imbue Action with otherise impossible elements. (Dark on Shez Gremory)
Max HP +1000	--
Medical Expertise	Probably overkill.
Muster	Significant but only temporary and requires Perfect Dodge.
Nullify Armored Effect	--
Nullify Cavalry Effect	--
One Heart One Mind	Adjutant Follow-Ups are a unreliable.
Panache	Doesn't help getting into Awakening to begin with but gets you a about 1/4th into the next one.
Poison Strike	--
Prepared to Die	--
Range Master	--
Rebellious Spirit	--
Sharpshooter	--
Shining Guardian	--
Smite	--
Spirited Seize	Limited returns based on map.
Tableturner	Inconsistent. Probably wouldn't bother.
Trust	Adjutant effects are unreliable.
Vantage	Depends on how you play but wouldn't recommend it.
Wrath	Could be strong on high Dex units.
Wyvern Rider's Wisdom	The Class Action doesn't work very well with this.

E = Avoid

Spoiler

Anchor	Unreliable
Apex Weapons	These would be great if they weren't bugged. Don't use right now.
Armored Cavalry's Ploy	--
Armored Infantry's Ploy	--
Armored Infantry's Wisdom	--
Backbone	Unreliable
Battalion Desperation	--
Battalion Renewal	--
Battalion Vantage	--
Battalion Wrath	--
Counterattack	Have to take damage to deal damage. We want to avoid damage.
Counterstrike	Depends on how you play but wouldn't recommend.
Dark Mage's Wisdom	--
Def +2	--
Defensive Tactics	--
Defiant Crit	--
Defiant Def	--
Defiant Res	--
Defiant Spd	--
Desperation	Guard Break is not great. The broken status doesn't last long and the attack is still blocked.
Dex +2	--
Dex +5	--
Dual Wielder's Ploy	--
Faith	Probably overkill.
Inspiring Agility	--
Knight's Ploy	--
Knucklebreaker	Have to sit in Guard which means you aren't attacking.
Lethality	--
Magic Attack Range+	--
Max HP +500	--
Miracle	--
Patience	Good luck catching enemies in the requirement window.
Pegasus Knight's Ploy	Not a fan of the Action.
Pomp & Circumstance	--
Provoke	Would be useful if it worked on Ally AI but doesnt seem to.
Quick Riposte	Have to take damage to deal damage. We want to avoid damage.
Res +2	--
Savior of the Meek	Varies in potency and usefulness. Wouldn't recommend.
Seasoned Tactics	--
Sneak Attack	Trigger requirement is annoying to play around and requires Dex.
Spd +2	--
Spd +5	--
Str/Mag +2	--
Thief's Ploy	--
Transmute	--
Wyvern Rider's Ploy	--

Edited August 21, 2022 by Archeleon
Updated some rankings

[Fabulously Olivier]

I'd rate concentration up on anyone using Ferdinand, Sylvain, or Marianne's unique abilities specifically. Basically, should be moved to Niche tier.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[LoneStar]

Apex skills are bugged? That's unfortunate they seemed like easy slot ins.

[Archeleon]

35 minutes ago, LoneStar said:

Apex skills are bugged? That's unfortunate they seemed like easy slot ins.

Yes, unfortunately. Right now they actually reduce your critical damage.

[Archeleon]

1 hour ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I'd rate concentration up on anyone using Ferdinand, Sylvain, or Marianne's unique abilities specifically. Basically, should be moved to Niche tier.

Any idea of how much of an extension it provides?

[Burklight]

Looks pretty good at a first pass. Looks even better if we assume perfect play.

If we assume near perfect play instead of actually perfect play...

Wild Abandon should be moved to B on account of it will lose you S rank if you get hit by basically anything big on Maddening. There's enough damage skills that you don't need this "win more" ability that introduces unnecessary risk.

Anything that prevents flinching I would put in upper B / low A. It's very easy to get nailed by a multi hit attack and react slightly too late on the dodge button. With flinch immunity you'll take significantly less damage, and potentially be able to just power through enemy hits in some scenarios. This is particularly good vs cavalry, archers and brawlers.

The Creation - totally free requirement, I'd put in low A

Goddess Vessel - totally free requirement if you're cooking, I'd put in low A

Stalwart Stance/Serene Stance - I'd put in upper B

I would also move Seeker of Greatness and Absorb Dex(Claude) to A, because when used together Claude gets pretty nutty very quickly. Absorb Dex on anyone other than Claude should top out at B at the highest, however.

 

 

[ZanaLyrander]

Just now, Burklight said:

The Creation - totally free requirement, I'd put in low A

Goddess Vessel - totally free requirement if you're cooking, I'd put in low A

I'm with Burklight on these two, if you're making use of the cooking (and if not, why aren't you?) these are both completely free, there's no reason not to equip them on Shez and Byleth.

[Archeleon]

1 hour ago, Burklight said:

Looks pretty good at a first pass. Looks even better if we assume perfect play.

If we assume near perfect play instead of actually perfect play...

Wild Abandon should be moved to B on account of it will lose you S rank if you get hit by basically anything big on Maddening. There's enough damage skills that you don't need this "win more" ability that introduces unnecessary risk.

Anything that prevents flinching I would put in upper B / low A. It's very easy to get nailed by a multi hit attack and react slightly too late on the dodge button. With flinch immunity you'll take significantly less damage, and potentially be able to just power through enemy hits in some scenarios. This is particularly good vs cavalry, archers and brawlers.

The Creation - totally free requirement, I'd put in low A

Goddess Vessel - totally free requirement if you're cooking, I'd put in low A

Stalwart Stance/Serene Stance - I'd put in upper B

I would also move Seeker of Greatness and Absorb Dex(Claude) to A, because when used together Claude gets pretty nutty very quickly. Absorb Dex on anyone other than Claude should top out at B at the highest, however.

 

 

I can probably see Wild Abandon in Mid-High B, Wonder what others think. 

 

Still thinking about the abilities.

[Sire]

Huh, Battle Instincts is C? Granted, I haven't unlocked it myself yet, but from I understood from its description is that it filled up both the Warrior and Awakening gauges until one is full.
-- Does it fill up all Three Warrior Gauges, or just One?

Also, Underdog may actually be more useful is it seems, since Maddening has enemies that go up to 180 (that I know of), while the player level cap is 120. I guess someone will have to run the numbers on it to see how effective that skill actually is.

As an aside, I also agree on The Creation and Goddess Vessel being up a tier for reasons already stated.

* * * * *

I'll look more into the skills later, although I'm more interested in figuring them out on a character-by-character basis, while also considering their personals.
-- I have a feeling Ferdinand may end up being one of the best units in the game, since he has access to a lot of amazing skills, a good Crest, and superior personals.

[Burklight]

Another thought I just had. I think it might make more sense to break down tier lists into "Offense" and "Utility" instead of throwing everything together. Because of the way abilities stack...using only offensive is probably wrong most of the time. Especially for ones that just give increased damage. 

For the following specifically, I think you shouldn't pick more than 3 or 4 in the same build.

Wild Abandon, Weapon Prowess, Undaunted, Solitary Stand, Offensive Tactics, Lifeforce, Impossible Feat, Big Game Hunter.

Especially if you're picking some of the hp cost ones. If you're using Lifeforce, Impossible Feat, Big Game Hunter, and Weapon Prowess, you're looking at 260% increased damage with skills. At that point, adding Offensive Tactics, for example, would just bump that to 280. That's not even a 10% increase. At that point, wouldn't a utility ability be better than a damage ability?

Seems like you'd want 6-8 damage abilities and 2-4 utility depending on the unit. Putting them in the same tier list doesn't make sense if you look at it in context.

 

 

[Archeleon]

1 minute ago, Burklight said:

Another thought I just had. I think it might make more sense to break down tier lists into "Offense" and "Utility" instead of throwing everything together. Because of the way abilities stack...using only offensive is probably wrong most of the time. Especially for ones that just give increased damage. 

For the following specifically, I think you shouldn't pick more than 3 or 4 in the same build.

Wild Abandon, Weapon Prowess, Undaunted, Solitary Stand, Offensive Tactics, Lifeforce, Impossible Feat, Big Game Hunter.

Especially if you're picking some of the hp cost ones. If you're using Lifeforce, Impossible Feat, Big Game Hunter, and Weapon Prowess, you're looking at 260% increased damage with skills. At that point, adding Offensive Tactics, for example, would just bump that to 280. That's not even a 10% increase. At that point, wouldn't a utility ability be better than a damage ability?

Seems like you'd want 6-8 damage abilities and 2-4 utility depending on the unit. Putting them in the same tier list doesn't make sense if you look at it in context.

 

 

This is something I had considered as well, there could be a point in which stacking a lot of them will give diminishing returns. However, remember that not every unit has access to all of those. For example, Solitary Stand is Jeritza exclusive, so I feel having them ranked in a vacuum retains value.

When I was first putting the list together, I did split the skills into categories to be able to compare them to each other and I kept the notes internally for future reference. I could easily adjust the list to show the categories I came up with. Ultimately, I think there are three big categories, Offensive, Defensive and Utility. I can rate them based on category but even then, there is still a lot of crappy defensive stuff like Miracle and Defensive Tactics that won't help much.

[Burklight]

4 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

This is something I had considered as well, there could be a point in which stacking a lot of them will give diminishing returns. However, remember that not every unit has access to all of those. For example, Solitary Stand is Jeritza exclusive, so I feel having them ranked in a vacuum retains value.

When I was first putting the list together, I did split the skills into categories to be able to compare them to each other and I kept the notes internally for future reference. I could easily adjust the list to show the categories I came up with. Ultimately, I think there are three big categories, Offensive, Defensive and Utility. I can rate them based on category but even then, there is still a lot of crappy defensive stuff like Miracle and Defensive Tactics that won't help much.

To clarify, I think defense and utility are essentially same thing. 

[Archeleon]

1 minute ago, Burklight said:

To clarify, I think defense and utility are essentially same thing. 

I'd consider things like Def+10, Armored Infantry's Ploy, Stalwart Stance and Renewal as defensive whereas Despoil, Adjutant's Benefit and Safeguard would be utility, for example.

[Burklight]

Oh, I understand what you're saying. I just think it's a distinction without a difference. Piercing Cry and Stalwart Stance are both excellent skills that are run for their utility reasons, meaning they don't directly help you deal more damage.

[ZanaLyrander]

I will say, Despoil is really nice to have. I'll probably replace it eventually, but god, you can never have enough money in this game, you can splurge a million gold in no time at all, the training instructor and blacksmith are fucking expensive, and Despoil saves a ton of time.

[Archeleon]

Changed some of the rankings based on feedback. Personally, I am not entirely sold on the super armor abilities but will take you guy's most poignant feedback in consideration.

[Pie Burritos]

What's the whole deal with Savior of the Meek? Obviously its effectiveness is extremely nebulous and I haven't really seen much of a difference myself when equipping it, but do we actually know anything concrete about the skill?

[Archeleon]

7 hours ago, Pie Burritos said:

What's the whole deal with Savior of the Meek? Obviously its effectiveness is extremely nebulous and I haven't really seen much of a difference myself when equipping it, but do we actually know anything concrete about the skill?

It just seems to add a minor boost to knockback chance based on Str - Target Str. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

I wonder if there is an argument for using Howl on knockback-based characters like Ignatz, Lysithea, Dimitri, etc. And of course, how does Savior of the Meek compare to Howl?

[Burklight]

I believe that Howl and Savior of the Meek aren't translated very well. I'm fairly sure that when the game says "knock back" they really mean "flinch." It's the same wording they use for Stalwart Stance, for example.

[Archeleon]

Yeah, there is a difference between staggering a unit and sending them flying back or launching them up. I think Howl and SotM are stagger related.

[Sire]

Agreed on the stagger vs "launched/flying" points.

Stagger/Flinch interrupts the targets action (and may be related to breaking guards). I also believe that Howl is related to this, although I haven't looked closely at Savior of the Meek.
Launched sends the target flying, triggering Collision and any "Launch" effects (such as Ingrid's or Lysithea's personals).
-- The thing is, knocking an enemy into the air is not good enough to be considered "Launched." They must be sent flying away by certain attacks (such as the Soldier Strong Attack 3), otherwise they will just fall back to the ground with no fanfare.
-- However, as long as enemies are off the ground, I believe the "Aerial Attacks" and the "Windtorn" status are in effect, so juggling foes here can be useful.

[Archeleon]

1 hour ago, Sire said:

Agreed on the stagger vs "launched/flying" points.

Stagger/Flinch interrupts the targets action (and may be related to breaking guards). I also believe that Howl is related to this, although I haven't looked closely at Savior of the Meek.
Launched sends the target flying, triggering Collision and any "Launch" effects (such as Ingrid's or Lysithea's personals).
-- The thing is, knocking an enemy into the air is not good enough to be considered "Launched." They must be sent flying away by certain attacks (such as the Soldier Strong Attack 3), otherwise they will just fall back to the ground with no fanfare.
-- However, as long as enemies are off the ground, I believe the "Aerial Attacks" and the "Windtorn" status are in effect, so juggling foes here can be useful.

Another project will be figuring out what attack strings apply what statuses to each enemy. Visually a lot of attacks seem to launch or send flying but they don't actually trigger bonuses related to weapon attributes.

[Fabulously Olivier]

So, I've been working on the assumption that Pass actually makes it easier to perform Perfect Dodges, not Perfect Guards, because that just makes more sense. Is that correct?

[Dark Holy Elf]

I don't have much to add, except to say nice work; this looks good!