How do you feel about Echoes: Shadows of Valentia in 2022?

[Zapp Branniglenn]

*Grabs Infinity Gauntlet* Fine. I'll do it myself *Smashes keyboard into pieces because this thing weighs a hundred pounds*

I freaking loved this game. Definitely a right place/right time situation. Announced at the one and only Fire Emblem Direct, I think we all remember that day. By May of 2017, I was anxious at the promise of Fire Emblem Switch, disappointed in Fire Emblem Heroes, mentally preparing myself to BE disappointed by Fire Emblem Warriors, and here comes this ray of hope. I did not ask for this. Nobody asked for this. A remake of Gaiden on the then-outdated 3DS hardware, that still sounds like a meme response to what sort of Fire Emblem game do you expect to be announced at the upcoming Fire Emblem Direct. The previous Fire Emblem Remake, Shadow Dragon, led to my biggest lapse of interest in this series. And yet, the words of Ghast Station echoed in my mind: "Just play Gaiden, Bro". I wanted to BE this excited in Fire Emblem again.

For me this is still the high point of Modern Fire Emblem if we consider "modern" to go back only as far as Awakening or Shadow Dragon. I have only played the game twice, but I have followed three separate streams of other people enjoying the game. Meanwhile I have not replayed any other 3DS game except for a Lunatic Chrom/Robin solo just to see if it's possible (it is, DLC and pair up are busted). The battle animations are incredible, this is the first time we've seen our units dodge and counterattack in one smooth-curated motion. Gone are the single-bound 10 meter dashes of Awakening/Fates, every attack has weight and impact behind it. When an archer fires, the camera tracks that arrow to its target. Units begin a battle scene charging at their enemy, rather than simply standing around waiting for their cue - this is such an upgrade for the aesthetics of mounted units especially. The memory fragments showing us conversations from the past is a great idea for a collectible. The Phoenix Wright investigation mode is fun, and a necessary break between battles. Alm/Celica's internal monologues are always a great read. They are not Avatar characters and yet it is so easy to experience this story from their eyes because of the way it is presented. Dungeon Crawling is interesting, and random battles are easy enough to avoid so that the systems don't waste your time if you don't want them to.

I cannot stop gushing. I like the application of Dragon Degeneration to justify the villains and how the world got so screwed up. 99.9% of the dialogue is voice acted and it rockets these Nothing Characters into being believable, funny, and interesting. Echoes is still the only game in the series to majorly rewrite scenes around permadeath. And voice acted death quotes? God I was not prepared to hear Est call out for her sisters. We don't get that in Three Houses because the death quotes are written 100% with Casual mode in mind (god the one area where Three Houses shirks on its script). And the music, man. Best FE OST, no question. When the soundtrack leaked online, wanted to hear what they did with Gaiden's recruitment music. Gaiden is a triumph of famicom chiptune. And the result blew me away. And I would be remiss if I did not mention Mila's Turnwheel. It's the best gameplay innovation I've seen in a tactics game to date. Just let us undo our mistakes without replaying the whole thing. I think the only way you can improve it is by NOT introducing it as a plot element. In the case of Echoes, it's mentioned once and never again, but it still begs the question who is controlling this awesome power. Mila? It's not the last time her spirit intervenes in the plot. 

There's so little that I was disappointed with. I wanted a Lunatic difficulty but we never got it. My first playthrough was Hard/Classic because somebody reading leaks assured me that beating the game on Hard unlocks Lunatic mode. So I pretty much blame my disappointment on this person more than the game. Combat Arts are not very good or interesting in Echoes, but I remember thinking "If they try again, this can definitely be something". They did and they are, at least on Maddening. I truly think this is one of the strongest narratives in the series, and it's an adaptation of Gaiden (literally a game named around being a less consequential story than what came before) with fewer major additions than any of us expected. Sure Echoes has its plot contrivances, but at least it's not another gosh darned time travel story that cuts the weight and mystery out of everything that's happening. And then have Sothis hand wave tragedies as "Fate" to explain why you can't just rewrite them. The war over resources isn't once again undermined by Corrin's pocket dimension where resources and time are infinite. People complain that the supports are limited, and they are. But I think you're disregarding the much-requested return of Base Conversations if you think that means the cast isn't fleshed out enough. Echoes would NOT be improved by S supports, especially since Gaiden wasn't built with them in mind.

How do YOU feel about Echoes? How did you respond to the game initially? And have you returned to it in the years since?

[TheChoZenOne]

It is a solid FE game. Sure it has its map design flaws that it carries over from Gaiden. But I always excused it for the fact that the game is still overall very fun and solid despite that. Also for the fact that the development story for this game is absolutely wholesome and touching. I respect the devs making this a passion project and wanting to stay as faithful to the original as possible BECAUSE of said story. Makes the game even more meaniningful to play ❤️

[Dark Holy Elf]

I enjoyed the game well enough for its different take on a few things like magic and archers, although I always considered it less good than the non-remake FEs made in this century, but looking back my feelings are very negative.

Simply speaking, I find the game unforgivably misogynist and a total trainwreck in terms of its own themes:

• All but one PC on Alm's route, as well as some on Celica's, need to be rescued
• Several (Silque, Matilda) are shown in rather gross objectifying poses while captive
• Rinea serves no purpose in the story except for Berkut to sacrifice as an object, because apparently his wife is his object to do so with
• Rinea forgives him for this
• Celica is framed as an equal to Alm initially but ultimately has to be rescued by him and become the secondary monarch to him in the ending.

Similarly, I hate how the game initially seems to be an uplifting story of a commoner (Alm) achieving greatness on his merits, and then this is undercut by him secretly being the Rightful King, even down to the ending having some magical barrier only he can cross because of his bloodline. There's a scene where Grey and Tobin talk about how Alm is Objectively Better than them and it was mortifying to watch.

So.... yeah I have a lot of bad feelings, and five years later these feelings overpower anything I could say about other aspects of the game.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Dark Holy Elf

[Seazas]

I fucking love Echoes and the positives greatly outweigh any negatives in the game for me. It's dated and the game can definitely suffer from it but I don't really care.

[ciphertul]

Ehh.. I played it and beat it plus the post game dungeon. I did enjoy it but is it one I would play again? No… so that is my answer. It’s okay.

[vanguard333]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I genuinely believe that Shadow Dragon was the better remake overall. It at least knew what kind of remake it wanted to be; Shadows of Valentia, meanwhile, was all over the place.

I really wanted to like Shadows of Valentia, and I ended up disappointed and not wanting to replay it; something I previously had only felt with Fates when it comes to FE games. It felt like a really awkward mismatch of ideas, some new, and some from Gaiden, and the whole thing is less than the sum of its parts.

For one example of the mismatch: every new character ultimately amounts to filler. Fernand and Berkut are ultimately pointless; they do absolutely nothing despite being set up as major antagonists. The less said about Faye, the better. Even established characters are hit hard by this: one minute, Jedah is a dark foil to Celica thoroughly convinced that Valentia cannot survive without Duma, and then he will suddenly snap to being a moustache-twirling villain, and the two clash hard.

Even outside of the mismatch, there is another problem that rots the entire game: Alm is a boring Gary Stu. There's no getting around it; despite the extremely blunt theme of duality in the game, Alm consumes everything and wraps the whole plot around his little finger; gratification and glorification of his character constantly takes precedence over actually bothering to write his character. I could easily describe the character traits of FE protagonists like Ike, Micaiah, and even Byleth; I can't do that for Alm. A bad protagonist doesn't inherently bring down a story, but a Gary Stu does, as they distort the plot around themselves. What should've been a game about duality and reconciliation is instead a game about just how perfect Alm is and how Celica was completely in the wrong and needed to apologize and accept her place as secondary to him. What should've been a game where we question the path that Alm chooses as it leads to him unwittingly killing his own father is instead a game where Alm killing his dad needed to happen for the fate of the universe because Alm is just so special and can do no wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Simply speaking, I find the game unforgivably misogynist and a total trainwreck in terms of its own themes:

• All but one PC on Alm's route, as well as some on Celica's, need to be rescued
• Several (Silque, Matilda) are shown in rather gross objectifying poses while captive
• Rinea serves no purpose in the story except for Berkut to sacrifice as an object, because apparently his wife is his object to do so with
• Rinea forgives him for this
• Celica is framed as an equal to Alm initially but ultimately has to be rescued by him and become the secondary monarch to him in the ending.

Similarly, I hate how the game initially seems to be an uplifting story of a commoner (Alm) achieving greatness on his merits, and then this is undercut by him secretly being the Rightful King, even down to the ending having some magical barrier only he can cross because of his bloodline. There's a scene where Grey and Tobin talk about how Alm is Objectively Better than them and it was mortifying to watch.

So.... yeah I have a lot of bad feelings, and five years later these feelings overpower anything I could say about other aspects of the game.

I agree with this. The worst part is that there was no need for the commoner-achieving-greatness subtopic; it wasn't in Gaiden, and they knew they were going to have to write Alm as secretly being the rightful king because the big twist of Gaiden was that Rudolph is his dad, so all it did was worsen the game.

[LoneRecon400]

I hated it on release and still think it terrible. I didn't like the story, the characters didn't get as many supports as I would've liked, and the gameplay is just abysmal.

Even putting aside the map design, the dungeons were an absolute chore, the point and click sections don't really add anything of value, and it took out a lot of the neat stuff in Gaiden like cross route revival or the original speed ring.

I find Echoes to be by far the weakest entry in the series barring the original NES FE1. The game should have fixed the issues that Gaiden had, not embrace them and act that they were fine to release them in a game made 25 years later.

[Florete]

In gameplay, I enjoyed it well enough as a unique take on Fire Emblem, but it's far from my favorite game. For story, I pretty much agree with Dark Holy Elf's post. I think Alm is one of the worst characters in the franchise, and since he's the main protagonist that necessarily casts a pretty dark shadow on the whole experience for me. The cast as a whole didn't do much for me; the Valentian I have the most attachment to is probably Rinea, but not for her role in this game, instead for the unexpected value she's brought me in FEH.

Also, I've said this before, but the way people romanticize Berkut and Rinea as a couple is really scary to me, because there's nothing positive about that relationship. Alm and Celica aren't much better...but at least Alm doesn't fucking murder Celica.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

All but one PC on Alm's route, as well as some on Celica's, need to be rescued

And then that last female PC's entire personality is her obsession with the male protagonist.

[Samz707]

While I've not played it recently, after trying and failing to get into Fates, it's still pretty much the only good 3DS FE game IMO.

It's the only one I actually want to play at all.

[indigoasis]

This was probably the one game that I got almost everything for: game, DLC, amiibo, and a cool poster for preordering. 

Easily one of my favorite games in the series and on the 3DS. SoV and Breath of the Wild were my go-to games back when they came out, and they blew me away; they were an absolute blast. They were pretty much peak video games for me at the time, especially since it was coming off the coattails of my favorite year in high school, so I look back on that time very fondly. It also really got me interested in voice actors. I never paid it much attention before, but with full voice acting, it's basically impossible to miss. I started paying attention to who was voicing who, where I had heard them from, etc. That was so cool. Gameplay was great, artstyle was gorgeous, and the music was *chef's kiss*.

Fantastically phenomenal game, but the DLC was overpriced.

[Seazas]

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I genuinely believe that Shadow Dragon was the better remake overall. It at least knew what kind of remake it wanted to be; Shadows of Valentia, meanwhile, was all over the place.

I really wanted to like Shadows of Valentia, and I ended up disappointed and not wanting to replay it; something I previously had only felt with Fates when it comes to FE games. It felt like a really awkward mismatch of ideas, some new, and some from Gaiden, and the whole thing is less than the sum of its parts.

For one example of the mismatch: every new character ultimately amounts to filler. Fernand and Berkut are ultimately pointless; they do absolutely nothing despite being set up as major antagonists. The less said about Faye, the better. Even established characters are hit hard by this: one minute, Jedah is a dark foil to Celica thoroughly convinced that Valentia cannot survive without Duma, and then he will suddenly snap to being a moustache-twirling villain, and the two clash hard.

Even outside of the mismatch, there is another problem that rots the entire game: Alm is a boring Gary Stu. There's no getting around it; despite the extremely blunt theme of duality in the game, Alm consumes everything and wraps the whole plot around his little finger; gratification and glorification of his character constantly takes precedence over actually bothering to write his character. I could easily describe the character traits of FE protagonists like Ike, Micaiah, and even Byleth; I can't do that for Alm. A bad protagonist doesn't inherently bring down a story, but a Gary Stu does, as they distort the plot around themselves. What should've been a game about duality and reconciliation is instead a game about just how perfect Alm is and how Celica was completely in the wrong and needed to apologize and accept her place as secondary to him. What should've been a game where we question the path that Alm chooses as it leads to him unwittingly killing his own father is instead a game where Alm killing his dad needed to happen for the fate of the universe because Alm is just so special and can do no wrong.

 

I agree with this. The worst part is that there was no need for the commoner-achieving-greatness subtopic; it wasn't in Gaiden, and they knew they were going to have to write Alm as secretly being the rightful king because the big twist of Gaiden was that Rudolph is his dad, so all it did was worsen the game.

You're still still throwing around the gary stu and mary sue buzzwords? I thought that nonsense ended with Micaiah. None of the FE protagonists fit the criteria of what makes a stu/sue. Just say you don't like Alm as a protagonist rather than making up labels. Alm has weaknesses, Alm has defining shortcomings, and Alm would fail without the side cast carrying him. Nor is he an idealized author insert.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Seazas

[vanguard333]

4 minutes ago, Seazas said:

You're still still throwing around the gary stu and mary sue buzzwords? I thought that nonsense ended with Micaiah. None of the FE protagonists fit the criteria of what makes a stu/sue. Just say you don't like Alm as a protagonist rather than making up labels.

People do use it as a buzzword, but it isn't inherently a buzzword. I certainly don't throw it around lightly; I only use it when a character definitely meets the criteria, and I most certainly do not use it for characters like Micaiah; to this day, I still can't believe that a character who got overshadowed in her own game was accused of being a mary sue.

Also, it does fit Alm; he meets the criteria perfectly. As I said, he bends and distorts the plot around him, and gratification/glorification of his character takes clear precedence over actually writing his character. He is one of two FE protagonists to which the term definitely applies; the other is Corrin.

 

12 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Alm has weaknesses and Alm would fail without the side cast carrying him. Nor is he an idealized author insert.

1. A character does not have to be an author-insert to be a sue/stu.

2. Any weaknesses Alm has are never brought to attention, utilized, or even identified as weaknesses or as things for him to overcome; the story bends over backwards so he never has to personally overcome anything.

3. Oh; you mean the same side-cast that glorifies him from minute-one, hands him the reigns to the entire army before he's even proven himself, gives him the credit for everything, and has scenes where they outright fawn over him and say there was always something inherently superior about him? Yeah; the plot sure seems to frame it as them carrying him...

[Seazas]

36 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

People do use it as a buzzword, but it isn't inherently a buzzword. I certainly don't throw it around lightly; I only use it when a character definitely meets the criteria, and I most certainly do not use it for characters like Micaiah; to this day, I still can't believe that a character who got overshadowed in her own game was accused of being a mary sue.

Also, it does fit Alm; he meets the criteria perfectly. As I said, he bends and distorts the plot around him, and gratification/glorification of his character takes clear precedence over actually writing his character. He is one of two FE protagonists to which the term definitely applies; the other is Corrin.

 

1. A character does not have to be an author-insert to be a sue/stu.

2. Any weaknesses Alm has are never brought to attention, utilized, or even identified as weaknesses or as things for him to overcome; the story bends over backwards so he never has to personally overcome anything.

3. Oh; you mean the same side-cast that glorifies him from minute-one, hands him the reigns to the entire army before he's even proven himself, gives him the credit for everything, and has scenes where they outright fawn over him and say there was always something inherently superior about him? Yeah; the plot sure seems to frame it as them carrying him...

No Alm doesn't meet the criteria. He isn't perfect nor does the plot "bend and distort around him", it's called being the protagonist and naturally being prominent. Alm getting praised and being competent doesn't equal gary stu. Especially when he worked hard to have that strength and awareness as we see early on. Him having a notable inheritance from the gods doesn't equal gary stu either. Plenty of non stu/sue chars in fiction have chosen one qualities. 

Now for your numbered responses... Yes they do. It's literally in the official definition of mary sue. 

It doesn't really matter if the weaknesses and shortcomings aren't handled in a way you prefer. It doesn't erase that they exist and Alm isn't perfect, they are directly identified as weaknesses to the point Alm's mindset almost got people killed. Even in the canon drama CD, people were poisoned because of Alm's shortsighted approach. Putting people in unnecessary avoidable danger because of recklessness is NOT a positive trait. He didn't approach Nuibaba for the betterment of his army, he did it out of emotion. He wasn't even tactical about Nuibaba either, he just saw Celica and ran for the Manor instantly in the story. Not a good thing to do as leader.  

"Glorifies him" Every lord gets glorified, from their bloodline to their capabilities. "Before he's even proven himself" Did we play the same game? Alm got handed leadership strictly because he was proven worthy. He's a legendary war hero's grandson and showed his ability in combat by retaking an important outpost. The Deliverance was a sinking ship and no one else could take Clive's burden as leader. "Gives him the credit for everything" How? Alm is primarily credited for the things he does and Alm still shares the glory with everyone else. And Tobin directly says that this army is what helps define Alm's strength and Alm would've died in the war without Celica's help. Alm directly voices how he needs her and his army to win, he can't do everything himself. He couldn't handle the political and tactical manners of an army, Clive and his lieutenants are credited for that in the story.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Seazas

[vanguard333]

8 minutes ago, Seazas said:

No Alm doesn't meet the criteria. He isn't perfect nor does the plot "bend and distort around him", it's simply called being the protagonist and naturally being prominent. Alm getting praised and being competent doesn't equal gary stu. Especially when he worked hard to have that strength and awareness lol. 

Now for your numbered responses... Yes they do. It's literally in the official definition of mary sue.

It doesn't matter if the weaknesses and shortcomings aren't handled in a way you prefer. It doesn't erase that they exist and Alm isn't perfect, they are directly identified as weaknesses to the point Alm's mindset almost got people killed. Even in the canon drama CD, people were poisoned because of Alm's shortsighted approach. Putting people in unnecessary avoidable danger because of recklessness is NOT a positive trait no matter how you slice it. 

"Glorifies him" no different from every other lord. Next. "Before he's even proven himself" Did we play the same game? Alm got handed leadership strictly because he was proven worthy. "Gives him the credit for everything" not even close. Alm is credited for things he does and Alm still shares the glory with everyone else. And Tobin directly says that they're what helps define Alm's strength and Alm would've died in the war without Celica's help. Alm directly voices how he needs her and his army to win, he can't do everything himself. 

There's a difference between just being the protagonist and having the plot distort around you; Alm is the latter. As for "worked hard to achieve that strength and awareness", don't make me laugh. Every character fawns over him before he even does anything.

No; sues are generally author-inserts, but they do not have to be.

It's not about whether or not they're handled "in a way that I'd prefer" (nice strawman by the way); it's about the fact that they aren't handled at all. The story doesn't identify them as flaws/weaknesses, so Alm may as well be treated as if he has no flaws or weaknesses. As for the drama CD, are you seriously using content outside the game itself to back up your point?

"No different from any other lord" really? Let's go over some examples then:

1. Marth: He's the heir to the throne and the only one who can wield the Medeus-killing weapon, and even then, any glorification of him near the start of Shadow Dragon starts and ends there. It's only his army that regards him as important until he starts achieving victories; until then, he's just an irrelevant fallen prince in the eyes of everyone else.

2. Ike: You cannot argue that Ike is glorified in Path of Radiance. At the start of the game, he's just a rookie mercenary, and he's treated like just a rookie mercenary. When Greil's death means Ike must step up to the plate, two characters outright quit because they don't think he can leave, and unlike Fernand, they aren't vilified for it; they're position is treated as cruel but understandable. And let's not forget him infuriating the Begnion senate to the point where the fact that he left the room with his head still attached was a miracle. He does end up drawing people to him, but slowly, and as a result of being a paragon.

3. Micaiah: Do I even have to say why she isn't glorified to anywhere near the extent of Alm? It's Micaiah; the FE lord who got overshadowed in her own game. Funny enough, incidentally, in threads around the time Shadows of Valentia released, I have gone over the differences between Micaiah being given command of the Daein forces and Alm being given command over the Zofian forces and explained why it was earned for Micaiah and not for Alm.

I could keep going and list examples like Chrom, Edelgard, Dimitri, etc., but I think I've made the point clear by now.

Clearly we did play different games; I played Shadows of Valentia: the game in which Alm was given command of the Zofian forces simply because he was supposedly Myson's grandson and before he had actually done much of anything. There was no point where he was proven worthy, nor did worthiness even come up. Again, I incidentally went over this when I compared Alm to Micaiah several years back.

 

2 hours ago, Florete said:

Also, I've said this before, but the way people romanticize Berkut and Rinea as a couple is really scary to me, because there's nothing positive about that relationship. Alm and Celica aren't much better...but at least Alm doesn't fucking murder Celica.

Well, he kind-of did when she was possessed by Duma, though that was more of a mercy-kill.

[Florete]

17 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Well, he kind-of did when she was possessed by Duma, though that was more of a mercy-kill.

Oh, true. So he did kill her, but she survived.

[Use the Falchion]

It's not for me. I promised myself I'd get back to this game in 2017 after I put it down for a bit. I don't think I've touched it outside of attempting to by some DLC last month. Maybe someday I'll get back to it, but its barebones approach isn't for me. I also don't really care for Celica. I find her a bit..."holier-than-thou" at times. She has a great heart and is more attentive about her friends than Alm IMO, but her outlook on the war and violence in general is one that's respectable, but not practical in their current situation. Also, her choice in people to trust is very suspect. Still, Gray is one of my favorite Non-Lord FE characters, so there's that. 

[SoulWeaver]

I liked the game fine, though it's not super standout in anything other than allowing you to, you know, actually see the Cipher characters as something other than just some TCG mascots, as someone who played a lot of Cipher that was awesome. Unfortunately, 3H proceeded to not use the Cipher characters for anything so now I can't see them as anything other than just some TCG mascots who were allowed to be one-shot risks in a game that was already designed with a bunch of one-shot risks, because you know THAT was going to be a good idea.

I do like being able to recruit Faye and Kliff at the end of Act 2 if you go all the way back to Ram Village with Celica though, that was a neat little thing(too bad it went nowhere, having those two interact with some of Celica's crew in specific ways only during Act 3 would have been a great easter egg). The game also really helped sell me on Est, who was previously my most ignored Whitewing and now solidly ties with Catria for best Still Not Palla But I Like You Too.

Edited July 24, 2022 by SoulWeaver

[Jotari]

I liked it a lot, but I was kind of primed to like it as I had already played and liked Gaiden (I'm one of those guys that says Gaiden unironically has good map design). But with me, the more I love something the more issues I have with it. Specifically for Shadows of Valentia

*Mono weapon users! Thunderation why did they have to be loyal in this regard? It's so frustrating. Rudolf wields Falchion despite being in a class that is unable to!

*Going off the above, yeah...no Axe users. Wouldn't have been hard to implement, make fighter an option for villagers, maybe add a new character and give Generals axes and viola, they're a part of the game.

*Single equipment slot. I get what they were going for in Gaiden, but it just didn't work, especially when they introduced all that food in Shadows of Valentia. It should have been one Weapon + one Equipment slot, so I could give Celica Beloved Zofia and Mage Ring both.

*Yes, the Dreadfighter loop bothers me. Either give it as an option to every class or remove it entirely. It's not disadvantageous or bad for the game design given, it's just weird. I class Nosferateau killing Duma in this category too.

*Gee those Overclasses sure look cool...would be nice if there was a place you could use them (and don't say Thabes, Thabes was not designed to have them anymore than Chapter 5 was, Overclasses tear through the labyrinth like a knife through hot butter).

*Combat arts were a nice addition to the franchise and this was definitely the game to do it...but tying them to weapons and characters like that was just restrictive. The whole process of having the character learn it, but only when they have the weapon just doesn't work for me. It's slow, by the time the character has actually learned a combat art, I've progressed far enough into the game to be ready for an upgraded weapon. Either a character should be able to learn a combat art and that's it, that character has it to use whenever they want, or a weapon should be able to use a combat art and then that weapon has it forever, so once your Iron Sword learns Windsweep, that specific Iron Sword has Windsweep built into it no matter what unit you give it to, this could even provide unique combat art combinations via forging. And give Alm the ability to use Double Lion with Falchion -_-

*Oh yeah, I'm bothered by some plot stuff. But I've talked enough about that over the years.

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, vanguard333 said:

There's a difference between just being the protagonist and having the plot distort around you; Alm is the latter. As for "worked hard to achieve that strength and awareness", don't make me laugh. Every character fawns over him before he even does anything.

No; sues are generally author-inserts, but they do not have to be.

It's not about whether or not they're handled "in a way that I'd prefer" (nice strawman by the way); it's about the fact that they aren't handled at all. The story doesn't identify them as flaws/weaknesses, so Alm may as well be treated as if he has no flaws or weaknesses. As for the drama CD, are you seriously using content outside the game itself to back up your point?

"No different from any other lord" really? Let's go over some examples then:

1. Marth: He's the heir to the throne and the only one who can wield the Medeus-killing weapon, and even then, any glorification of him near the start of Shadow Dragon starts and ends there. It's only his army that regards him as important until he starts achieving victories; until then, he's just an irrelevant fallen prince in the eyes of everyone else.

2. Ike: You cannot argue that Ike is glorified in Path of Radiance. At the start of the game, he's just a rookie mercenary, and he's treated like just a rookie mercenary. When Greil's death means Ike must step up to the plate, two characters outright quit because they don't think he can leave, and unlike Fernand, they aren't vilified for it; they're position is treated as cruel but understandable. And let's not forget him infuriating the Begnion senate to the point where the fact that he left the room with his head still attached was a miracle. He does end up drawing people to him, but slowly, and as a result of being a paragon.

3. Micaiah: Do I even have to say why she isn't glorified to anywhere near the extent of Alm? It's Micaiah; the FE lord who got overshadowed in her own game. Funny enough, incidentally, in threads around the time Shadows of Valentia released, I have gone over the differences between Micaiah being given command of the Daein forces and Alm being given command over the Zofian forces and explained why it was earned for Micaiah and not for Alm.

I could keep going and list examples like Chrom, Edelgard, Dimitri, etc., but I think I've made the point clear by now.

Clearly we did play different games; I played Shadows of Valentia: the game in which Alm was given command of the Zofian forces simply because he was supposedly Myson's grandson and before he had actually done much of anything. There was no point where he was proven worthy, nor did worthiness even come up. Again, I incidentally went over this when I compared Alm to Micaiah several years back.

 

Well, he kind-of did when she was possessed by Duma, though that was more of a mercy-kill.

That's legit not true. Alm is supported by his friends before he's "fawn over" by others. Alm stood up for Lukas and didn't care that he was a backwater noble. He saved Clair and is generally pretty kind to people (the SAME EXACT REASON some characters praise lords like Marth). And what do you mean he doesn't work for it? We hear about and see him spend his whole life training under Mycen. Alm had to work to get his strength and then trust, respect, and praise followed after said strength. Alm proved he was reliable. The story does not distort around Alm either, that's purely you being bitter toward him being a driving force for the story for some reason. Chosen Ones =/= Mary Sues.

It's a big part of what defines mary sues and how they qualify best. It's one of the multiple instances of Alm failing to reach mary sue status. 

Yes, they are. Just because Alm doesn't fail by them doesn't erase that they are, in fact, shortcomings of the character. Putting others in needless danger because of your emotions rather than a deliberate choice is a negative. Alm himself admits that it's a negative and why he needs his friends + Celica. Alm NEEDED help and had plenty of things he couldn't do himself. Celica's journey directly benefitted Alm's and why he doesn't get defeated in the war. The game additionally tells us that Clive and co. did the actual army work while Alm was just a figurehead that fought on the frontlines.

The big praise for Alm comes from his army and the people positively affected by him. So your point falls flat when you try to justify Marth's glorification. Many outside of Alm's banner don't give a shit about who he is, directly proven by numerous Rigelian NPCs either not caring or disliking the Zofians on their soil. Alm's only glorified by people who have reason to care about him. The majority of Rigel did not care about him at first. Numerous outside of Valentia go without saying. Celica's army also don't acknowledge Alm, he's not the center of the universe you force him to be.

Your examples don't change that they're glorified. You dig into why their glorified but it doesn't change that they are. Even if the amount varies, there's still plenty of praise for every lord as that's usually why they're in lord status. They're made to be standout and given a supreme inheritance/bloodline. Alm has his own fair reasons for being glorified the same way.

Clive and co literally bring up that Alm proved himself by taking back the outpost and saving his sister. It's not even the only reason he's made the Deliverance figurehead. Alm isn't in control of everything in the Deliverance either. Clive and his own men still hold weight and influence, as they handle areas that Alm cannot. It's purely a collaborative effort, Alm is moreso the figurehead for morale and he makes his decisions with other people.

To call Alm a gary stu is nothing short of a buzzword because you don't like him. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Seazas

[vanguard333]

42 minutes ago, Jotari said:

*Oh yeah, I'm bothered by some plot stuff. But I've talked enough about that over the years.

You and me both; I'm honestly tired of talking about it now. I've said all I want to say, and I'm done.

[AnonymousSpeed]

Echoes has really pretty art, but the music is actually worse than the Famicom game, retaining none of the original punchiness.

I think the full voice acting is...okay. It adds a ton of cutscenes which do nothing but drag down the pacing. If you let the cutscenes at the start play all the way through, it'll be an hour to reach the first map from Gaiden, which you can get to in a few minutes in that game. However, it shouldn't really surprise anyone a present year JRPG has worse pacing than one on the NES. Some of the voice work has personality, but most of it I can pass on.

I left my first playthrough thinking I enjoyed it, but I didn't touch the game much after and couldn't think of anything which I actually liked about playing it, aside from conceptually enjoying some of the mechanics. I tried to play it again more recently and realized why that was- the game is just really boring. It's easy to cheese, it's monotonous, it adds stupid side-quests like coral farming, the awkward camera in the dungeons- it goes on. Nothing is engaging about any given turn. I tried to do a Blitzkrieg run and even that constraint wasn't helping any.

This is the worst part of all, because I can mute a game and play my own music. Echoes mercifully lets you skip cutscenes. What's the point though? I am skipping to a state of listening to my own music while playing a game that isn't actually fun.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

Echoes has a couple of hiccups along the way, but I really like it overall. I really like the art style and the voice acting, and I enjoyed visiting/interacting in towns way more than I thought I would. I really like the cast, I think it's a pretty strong one. Some standouts being Lukas, Tobin, Gray, Clair, Clive, Saber, Boey, and Mae. The gameplay is overall pretty enjoyable despite some weak maps and slow leveling. Echoes is a very solid game, it's great.

[lenticular]

Mixed feelings, but leaning more toward positive than negative. There's a lot that I like, but also a lot that I dislike.

First, the good:

• I really enjoyed the voice acting. A lot of great performances which really added life to the character and the script.
• The presentation was, generally speaking, rather charming.
• I like (most of) the characters.
• The story is simple and straightforward, and sometimes that's exactly what I want.
• I like how gloriously imbalanced it is. There's so much ridiculous overpowered nonsense for both the player and the enemy, and it all somehow works out, in a "when everything is overpowered, nothing is overpowered" sort of way.
• I actually like the map design, for the most part.
• I like having stat boosters be at shrines rather than items, because that made me actually use them, as opposed to succumbing to my base hoarder instincts.

And now the bad:

• A lot of story stuff is messed up. As Dark Holy Elf explained.
• The lack of a higher difficulty option really hurts the game. I think that it's the easiest that the hardest setting in a FE game has been this side of PoR international release.
• Too many bland skirmish fights. In dungeons, I was bad at avoiding them due to a combination of my being a klutz (there's a reason I mostly play turn-based games) and the poor camera and controls. Outside of dungeons, the map spawns made me want to avoid doing any of them side quests, because I didn't want to go back and forth any more than I absolutely had to and spawn more random crap on the map.
• The forging system is a mess. Weapon evolutions is a neat idea, but unless you're using a guide (or have memorised from previous playthroughs) then it's complete luck whether you get something great (eg, a killer bow) or something that's not even a clear upgrade over what you started with (eg, a rhomphaia). this is made worse since you can't even see a weapon's combat arts to begin with, so you're even more in the dark as to which evolutions are actually good/ And the gold and silver marks that you need are rare enough (outside of grinding) that you don't really have enough of them to just experiment with.

[Captain Karnage]

definitely one of my favorite games in the series

probably one of the best examples of a game that needed a remake, and that got one
(looking at you Last Of Us Part 1)

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

All looks, no substance.

There´s a whole lot of nothing happening on these maps. Add those glorious sticky swamps, deserts and a whole buncha 1tile chokes.

Enemy units are laughable, unless they target RES in which case you might actually have to be careful... if the AI wasn´t dumber than a box of rocks.

One does not simply hold an Orange AND an Iron Sword.

 

The greatest entertainment this game has to offer is killing the-not-real-Desaix.