Thoughts on Class Trees/Weapon-Access

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

Honestly, I think the mage movesets are fine and pretty fun in a vacuum, it's just the enemy Archers (the ones they're supposed to counter) are so stupidly aggressive and powerful compared to every other enemy type that it makes player mages feel needlessly weak and fragile against them.

If anything, bows feel like a tome counter gameplay-wise. Maybe the secondary triangle should have been inverted. Bows should beat Tomes because they can match the range and are much quicker on the draw, Tomes should beat Gauntlets because they have a range advantage and can exploit brawlers' weak res, and Gauntlets should beat Bows because they rush in while def-tanking arrows and beat the archer to a pulp at close-range.

Gauntlets could be argued either direction, but I do think bows should beat tomes instead of the other way around.

Also, bows and guns beating mages is kind of traditional in fantasy.

[LJ_Reflet]

I personally don't mind the weapon triangle for the most part, cause it really encourages you to use different classes on different units. I mean, on the downside, I can't have a team of all Falcon Knights like I could have in 3H cause of how extremely inefficient it would be, but yeah at least I have more incentive to have each unit in a different class.

I do try to acknowledge the weapon triangle for the most part, though. Having a WTD does make defeating enemies kind of a slog, so I try to go for at least neutral.

9 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

Honestly, I think the mage movesets are fine and pretty fun in a vacuum, it's just the enemy Archers (the ones they're supposed to counter) are so stupidly aggressive and powerful compared to every other enemy type that it makes player mages feel needlessly weak and fragile against them.

If anything, bows feel like a tome counter gameplay-wise. Maybe the secondary triangle should have been inverted. Bows should beat Tomes because they can match the range and are much quicker on the draw, Tomes should beat Gauntlets because they have a range advantage and can exploit brawlers' weak res, and Gauntlets should beat Bows because they rush in while def-tanking arrows and beat the archer to a pulp at close-range.

Gauntlets could be argued either direction, but I do think bows should beat tomes instead of the other way around.

I def agree with all this though--especially Tomes beating Gauntlets. Majority of the units who have a preference for brawling have really bad res, so I get so worried throwing them in a crowd of mages. It makes for meeting the S-rank damage taken threshold a huge pain LOL. So, it just makes sense mechanically for tomes to have advantage over gauntlets.

The only thing is, I do feel like mage movesets could be a bit faster. They feel sluggish using their normal attacks and spells aren't spammable due to their cooldowns.

Edited August 2, 2022 by LJ_Reflet

[Dark Holy Elf]

Regarding the bow/brawling/magic triangle, the devs were constrained a bit by copying the breaker skills from Three Houses. But it never made much sense then either. I agree that reversing the triangle would have made more sense.

I find the weapon triangle very powerful in this game, not so much for damage (though there is that), but for the extra stun gauge damage. I'm seeing people saying it's a bit tricky to fight archers with mages, but you should almost never be fighting them fairly (except perhaps very early when weapon durability is more of an issue). Even a single spell + followup tends to instantly break archers thanks to weapon triangle effects, and the resulting critical rush gives you a bunch of free kills. I've generally found that the maps that are toughest to S rank (some paralogues, for instance) are made easier by focusing on exploiting advantage to do this.

[ZanaLyrander]

11 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm seeing people saying it's a bit tricky to fight archers with mages, but you should almost never be fighting them fairly (except perhaps very early when weapon durability is more of an issue). Even a single spell + followup tends to instantly break archers thanks to weapon triangle effects, and the resulting critical rush gives you a bunch of free kills. I've generally found that the maps that are toughest to S rank (some paralogues, for instance) are made easier by focusing on exploiting advantage to do this.

This. Your tome wielders should honestly never be fighting fair to begin with, you're too squishy and slow moving to be wading in and trading blows. Spells that juggle your opponents or trap them in multiple hit effects such as Excalibur, Luna, Bolganone, or Meteor are a must for any tome wielder, or ice spells that freeze your enemy in place. if you allow your enemies an opportunity to retaliate, you're doing it wrong. I find that one such setup spell, combined with a finisher spell like Agnea's Arrow, Dark Spikes, or Hades can wipe out almost anything if you combo them together. Your enemies shouldn't be able to hit you, because they should either be trapped in one of your spells, or dead.

Edited August 2, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Archeleon]

Problem with these games though is that Dark Knight and Trickster can still use spells just as effectively and still have a reliable fall back with their movesets.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 minute ago, Archeleon said:

Problem with these games though is that Dark Knight and Trickster can still use spells just as effectively and still have a reliable fall back with their movesets.

Yeah those classes are very good, but they don't exist for a good chunk of the game. Once they do, you should have enough weapon durability (and effects which extend it, like the highest tier of cooking) that you can largely just spam magic anyway, so which class is better will mostly depend on the individual battle and what enemies you want to claim advantage over (Sword Buster vs Bow Buster, etc.). Even setting that aside, Gremory has a faster cooldown on spells.

[ZanaLyrander]

6 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

Problem with these games though is that Dark Knight and Trickster can still use spells just as effectively and still have a reliable fall back with their movesets.

Hybrid magic/physical classes are top tier in this game. In theory, they're supposed to sacrifice some raw power for additional flexibility, but in practice, they end up just being good at everything, able to handle enemies with high defense or high resistance without any difficulty. There's not much need for pure physical attackers or pure spellcasters, when a Trickster, Mortal Savant, or Dark Knight can be good enough at both to fill both roles at once. Still, Gremory's spamming spells can be very powerful, even if they lack the flexibility of hybrid classes.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Even if we hold that Gremory is better at spells (I guess?), the hybrid classes are so much better at wave clear. The Gremory moveset is actually atrocious, so you're also pretty much using spells to clear mooks, and that's just wasteful. It's also, you know... less fun.

[ZanaLyrander]

9 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

Even if we hold that Gremory is better at spells (I guess?), the hybrid classes are so much better at wave clear. The Gremory moveset is actually atrocious, so you're also pretty much using spells to clear mooks, and that's just wasteful. It's also, you know... less fun.

Pretty much, as a Gremory, it's way more efficient to use your spells even on just crowds of mooks, your combos take too long for that. That said, there are plenty of spells that are excellent at wave clear, Luna springs instantly to mind, I'd argue one cast of Luna is more efficient at clearing waves than any moveset you care to name. But it's certainly not as exciting as doing so with combos on a hybrid class, and again, hybrid classes still have the option of dropping a spell to clear a wave if they can't be bothered to do it manually, whereas it's really your only option as a Gremory.

Edited August 2, 2022 by ZanaLyrander

[Jotari]

I haven't gotten up to Dark bishop yet as I'm just doing it via training, but I actually think Jearlt might make a good Dark Bishop, as his ability to power up his strong attacks combined with the range that class has could Combo well together.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Jotari